roster reading

Another thread nominated for "Golden" status by my friend ClevelandDad, and I agree wholeheartedly!

Thanks to all for such thoughtful, informed, and thought-provoking posts. You are all Golden!



Julie

Thanks Julie!

It seems to me that roster reading is a good skill to have There have been some great posts in this thread!

You should know what to look for. Compare fall and spring rosters and also look at stats to see who didn't get off the bench. Also if you are a position player check who is in front of you. However even after all of the checking it means very little as the rosters change drastically over the summer and fall.
I would spend more time improving my game and leave the roster checking to Mom and Dad. Keeps them off the streets and out of trouble.

This is a most interesting discussion. This particular comment by CD prompted me to join the fray.

quote:

Lets talk about Army. I hope no one is under the impression that Army is just recruiting one guy at each position and letting it go at that. I am sure they are recruiting 2-4 guys at each position and telling each of them they have a "chance to compete" for a starting position. I am positive those those 2-4 guys were all excellent players in high school and all share similar dreams/aspirations.

The Army, Navy, and Air Force programs have a couple big "advantages". First, as we were told during the recruiting process, "all of our players are on a full ride". Second, even if those coaches opt to hedge their bets and over-recruit at some positions, any and all players cut still have a full ride scholly, and that scholly is for 4 years.

CLEARLY, there are some strings attached to that four year full ride. For many, maybe even most, the restrictions of those strings is sufficient to rule out playing for a service academy. (So maybe it's not that big of an advantage

For us, it was & is reassuring to know if our son decides his playing days are over, the schooling is still paid for. If he decides to leave prior to his third year, and still wants to play, his intention is to continue at a DII program.

DadRinTX - more good points. Just to clarify, the quoted material was from my post that was further commenting on CPLZ's post.

Regardless, I would like to clarify some more points about roster sizes. I think some people get caught up in the raw numbers some times. Just because some school brings in lots of players to compete at a given position does not necessarily affect playing time unless one of them happens to turn out better than the player who is trying to determine a fit. On the other hand, if a player finds himself behind one all-american type player, that could be devastating for years to come with respect to playing time as I noted above with respect to the OSU football player.

Clearly, it is important to see how many kids are being brought in but it also is important to analyze who is there presently and/or who might be coming in to replace them. Not all this information will be clear especially before early signing. However, if someone is dilligent and performs google searches on a regular basis, you might be able to catch someone else's verbal announcement before making a committment yourself.

There are no risk-free decisions however. Like TR said above, at the end of the day a player has to have confidence in their ability to compete and overcome things.

When talking with coaches, there are questions you can ask to help find out what kind of program you're dealing with.

At one school Junior was being recruited at, we asked what happened if Junior sustained a career ending injury. The coach gave us the phone # of a senior. He was a kid that got hurt in fall practices his freshman year and never played an inning. He was still on the same scholarship he had signed as an incoming freshman.

At Juniors school now, the coach is very proud to tell you that he's never cut a recruited player.

So not all programs operate the same or have the same philosophies. It's your job as a parent to ask tough questions...they're a lot easier to deal with than tough situations later.

The academies also have a disadvantage in that the player's need to be committed to a military career after they complete their schooling. There's no such thing as a free lunch/ride. Thanks to those who are willing to make the commitment.

quote:

Originally posted by CPLZ:
At one school Junior was being recruited at, we asked what happened if Junior sustained a career ending injury. The coach gave us the phone # of a senior. He was a kid that got hurt in fall practices his freshman year and never played an inning. He was still on the same scholarship he had signed as an incoming freshman.

At Juniors school now, the coach is very proud to tell you that he's never cut a recruited player.

So not all programs operate the same or have the same philosophies. It's your job as a parent to ask tough questions...they're a lot easier to deal with than tough situations later.

I agree, ask those questions. I have heard the same thing, a player gets hurt and never able to play at full capacity and never had his scholarship taken away but remained on the roster, that's the moral part I am talking about.

A lot of this has to do with how a coach perceives a player as well. If they find someone they think is not adding to team chemistry or out for himself, they might cut the scholarship, but if not, will make life uncomfortable, by telling you straight up front, they don't see you get a lot of playing time.

This is why I stated previously, we don't always know the real reason a player is cut.

My son's freshman roommate was a non medical RS during his soph year. He got very little playing time in his freshman year. He was a very good player from a large Texas HS caught up in the numbers game.
I took some time and tracked him down today. I found him at a very good D111 NCAA college in Texas and he was one of the top players. The real issue is very good players get cut, sidelined for various reasons. One coach sees a player one way and another , another way.
One pitcher was cut or squeezed out and went to a D11. He was 13-0 and drafted. In low A he had a 1.43 era after 42 innings with a 4-2 record. He was cut at A ball after 3 innings. BB is a tough business.
You can read rosters all you like but when you are at the college it is all about competing. You have no idea where you stand with regards to other players there, recruited or to be recruited. You have no idea how you will be perceived by a coach.
Yes there are studs who would stand out and be reasonably sure of a starting role on a team but most guys have to put everything on the table to make the cut. I saw a huge turnover of players that were doing well. The starting catcher was leaving until he found out the new coaches were coming. My son was the first player of 1st 6 at the exit meetings that said he was coming back for his SR. year. The coach was let go not long after . Things go on behind the scenes that parents and players have no idea about. My son would tell me things that I was surprised went on. Just like real life it isn't just about BB.

BHD,
It was an unfortunate situation your son may have been in to cause so many turnovers, but I am not sure that is always the case.
I think that most players know exactly where they stand and it's not hard to figure out what the coach wants, the best players play. But some of the best players don't get to play right away, there is a right of passage at some programs.

My son started and ended with all of the players who came as freshman when he did, a few 2004 HS grad JUCO transfers came in to replace older drafted players that decided to sign, no one was ever cut. If you left it was on your own. I don't know about other programs, but it seemed to me, in the conference he played he faced the same core of players from other teams, year after year.

I don't want parents of future college players to stay awake at night trying to figure this all out, for most players it works out, most scholarship players do not get cut at most programs.

My son is a pitcher so we didn't have to watch numbers, and position players shouldn't always have to either, many coaches recruit players based on ability and many position guys do not always end up where they began or what they came in for or where you played in HS, that is why being versatile for position guys is important and being able to be a consisitant hitter. If you stick to one position, and you can't adapt to others, there is a reason you will sit. The exception may be catchers.

I would however recommend noting if the core of a team changes from year to year and a player deciding to walk on should always pay attention to fall roster numbers.

My son's situation was fine. It was very unsettling to watch players who were good ball players leave or get cut. Several of their parents used to post here.
I see good players every year come home to play at local colleges because they were disillusioned after a year or two.
You are right, parents shouldn't stay up and worry about this. That is my point. Understand that things happen and make sure your player is ready to compete when he gets a chance.

quote:

Originally posted by CaBB:
What would you call this? Over-recruiting?? Posted on a D1 CA college website: 18 new recruits welcomed on campus. Looking at their 2010 roster which already has 27 listed players (in addition to the new players)

Obviously the new recruits know they'll be competing for roster spots but I'm amazed kids are willing to stay at an expensive private school if they don't make the team. I think this should be a red flag for future recruits.

I have heard that the D1 CA expensive private college has already started to cut players including previous returners that are on scholarship or are paying full tuition.

As I see it, those returners have to sit out this year and possibly next year if they want to go to a DI school to play!

Sounds fair to me.......

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While I too am very concerned with the way that things are evolving at DI...a revolvng door with huge turnover of upperclassmen each june (baseball $ taken)and huge freshmen/recruited walkon recruiting classes seem to be the norm...

But I believe that if you cut a player with baseball $ in the fall, that he by rule has to stay on the roster in the spring. I suppose it is possible to cut a baseball $ player in the fall, still pay his money and effectively reduce the roster size by 1.

Anybody?

44
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OB$$,
According to my understanding, you cannot cut a player in the fall and award his money to someone else, so I am wondering how much is true of what is actually heard. If a coach wanted to cut or reduce scholarships, he has to do it before semester begins?
But you bring up a good point, you can cut it down and not give it to anyone, and make room on a roster to be in compliance by the spring (as far as roster size).

Cut a BB money guy in the fall and you lose a roster spot. They still have to honor the scholarship until the end of the year.
They can cut them after the exit meeting with no problems but the player will have to find a new college to play at. He will have to sit if he does to an NCAA school.

quote:

But you bring up a good point, you can cut it down and not give it to anyone, and make room on a roster to be in compliance by the spring (as far as roster size).

The roster spot is deemed to be taken so it doesn't open up a spot. If the BB money guy is cut his spot on the roster isn't open nor can it be used to get to 35. It limits the roster to 34.

I think BHD is correct that way this prevents coaches from cutting to make room for others, in the fall for the spring.
So if this is to be the case, why would a coach cut a scholarship player and lose someone he might need?

My understanding without, creative accounting, a scholarship cannot be redistributed unless the player leaves the school and his roster spot cannot be filled for the academic year.

You would think that with the transfer, scholarship, and roster size rules, there would be much less transfers and over recruiting, but since it is so program oriented, programs are still brining in a high amount of walk-ons just to shed them during the fall since it does not affect their APR. One long time coach who is now retired, he said he did not like the 35 man roster because he could not have fall scrimmages without more than 35 players.

Even top players are having their monies reduced or taken away going into their junior and senior years to cover the dollars promised to other players, since the player does not have strong options without having to sit out a year or going to another division they pretty much have to go with what the coach says.

Were is 3FG when you need him!

And you are right, many programs do bring in more players than needed for scrimmages and to make things more competitive.

I don't really get that though, this means coaches have less time to spend working with those that will reamin in the program, unless they just don't work with them. I know of some programs that bring in more than they should (walk ons) and tell them they will never make the spring roster and it's a cceptable by many because they had no intention of going anywere else to school to play anyway.

Walking onto a program for the first time always presents the problem that you can be cut in the fall.

While I know the school being discussed, I don't know any specifics.
However, if recruited scholarship or walk-on players are truly being cut at this point, it seems both the staff and players did a very poor job of researching and evaluation. Of course, this conclusion pre-supposes the cuts are based on talent, or the perceived lack of it, rather than the player not showing up ready to play/compete and other such items.
If the player truly is cut, he can transfer and play at any school other than a DI. There are a wealth of options in CA. Some of the DII's are certainly competitive with the program involved in this topic.
Also, while it is true the staff cannot pull the scholarship, one has to assume that if that player knows his future, and he wants to play baseball, he is transferring before the Spring arrives. The player will solve a portion of the staff's dilemma by his choice to leave, in all likelihood.
In my view, this topic and the rosters at many, many schools exemplify the fixation on DI college athletics. It is prominent on this site. Some of the threads started in the last 24 hours clearly, to me at least, show the risks players and families are willing to take and consider for DI.
The harsh reality is there are not enough slots for everyone having that fixation. The harsh reality is that the harsh reality occurs every semester. The harsh reality is that in some situations, fixation clouds the evaluation of talent and opportunity. In college baseball, you cannot hide it if your talent does not measure to the very high level of competition. When I use the word talent, I mean it to encompass what the player can do on the field. It also encompasses how he does the mental aspects, day in and day out. Finally, it encompasses what you do before and after practice and from the time you leave the field one day until you arrive the next.
The other aspect of reality is that there are numerous universities with academics equal to or superior to this school, where the cost is much lower, where the coaching is equally good, where the player development is equally good or better, and the cut or released player might well excel. However, those options are not DI. I don't see harsh reality and its impact changing any time soon.

[quote]a scholarship cannot be redistributed unless the player leaves the at that point there is no incentive to redistribute the funds. The players are already committed but the funds can be used in the recruiting process for next year.
As TPM said there is no logical reason to cut a scholarship player.

Good post infielddad, something I have always said, there is a fixation on the D1 experience and some won't accept any other option and FWIW, I agree, there are many fine programs to be found, everywhere, in all divisions.

The fixation on D1 is no worse than the fixation on brand name colleges. Also rift with down falls.

BHD, I don't know whether your statement is true or not. From my experience, schools like Pomona-Pitzer, Emory, Williams, Amherst, Tufts and many, many others are not "brand" names but they have very low acceptance rates on a large population of highly qualified applicants.
Whether your statement is true or not, I believe many of your posts to date about the injustice of sitting out one year shows that the fixation on DI has vastly more athletic consequences than are experienced from any "fixation" on the academics of "brand" names.

I think the sit rule is grossly unfair. It didn't affect us but if my son was cut he would have come home.
I know the name of every college you named. They have good reputations and may be a great place to go. We were after a D1 experience and make no apologies. The D1 experience was about playing against brand name D1 colleges. We accepted all the risks and fortunately things worked out well.
I can certainly feel for players and parents who have to deal with this added unnecessary risk.
Most parents and players are unaware of the risks. They all have high expectations and get double broadsided by the realities of college ball.

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quote:

Originally posted by infielddad: If the player truly is cut, he can transfer and play at any school other than a DI. There are a wealth of options in CA. Some of the DII's are certainly competitive with the program involved in this topic.

Actually not the case this year...

...have talked to some of the CA DII coaching staffs...due to budget cuts the UC's and the CA states are NOT accepting mid year transfers...

This leaves only a couple DII's and the potentially expensive NAIA's...or out of state.


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quote:

Most parents and players are unaware of the risks. They all have high expectations and get double broadsided by the realities of college ball.

How do you know that "most" parents/players are unaware of the risks and get blind sided by the "realities" of college baseball?
In the school in question in this topic, how do we know the coaching staff didn't explain the status to every recruit and every returning player so that each knew the coaching plans? I will tell you that the school is small and recruits within the local area. My guess is the staff knows they need to be quite cautious in how they build the program and recruit, so they don't get a reputation. They won't be able to do it like Georgia or ASU! How do you know most were unaware of the risks you knew?
You make the point about the "DI experience."
I remember Fungo posting a fun and quizzical thread awhile back questioning what were DIII academics.
I might ask the same about the DI "experience."
What is it, how is it different? At the school in question, they might average 250 fans for home games, maybe less. What is this DI experience you talk about that causes so many to risk getting "broadsided?"

quote:

Originally posted by observer44:
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quote:

Originally posted by infielddad: If the player truly is cut, he can transfer and play at any school other than a DI. There are a wealth of options in CA. Some of the DII's are certainly competitive with the program involved in this topic.

Actually not the case this year...

...have talked to some of the CA DII coaching staffs...due to budget cuts the UC's and the CA states are NOT accepting mid year transfers...

This leaves only a couple DII's and the potentially expensive NAIA's...or out of state.


.

O'44, thanks for that update.
It would also leave JC's and DIII's. Many of those options might be considerably less expensive than the school in question.

quote:

How do you know that "most" parents/players are unaware of the risks and get blind sided by the "realities" of college baseball?

I talk to hundreds of players and parents who are shocked by what happens in US college ball. The local colleges get players returning every year after a year or two and most are very critical about the lack of knowledge that they had from coaches.
I also talk to many who have ambitions of going to a US college and they are very clueless. they have to rely on 3rd party info.

The D1 experience to us was playing against top ranked BB colleges. I know lots of players at D11 schools and that is their choice. Only a few at D111 that I know personally. That was not an option to us.
My son also wanted a great location. Going to a rural setting would be like prison for him. He is a very social kid who loves to go out and enjoy his surroundings. His 4 years in Charleston were amazing.
We looked at several great colleges but who they played was more important than who they were and where they were located was most important of all.

http://canadianbaseballnetwork.com/node/841

I had to laugh at this guys comments on College of Charleston.

If I could go back and "redo" my CofC experience I would. I would go to class and not the beach! Let me tell you how my dad recalls my CofC time...He calls it "too much charleston...not enough college". Here is the deal plain and simple, if you are looking to go to school to party and have fun you can get caught up very easily in doing this at CofC. Looking back I cant even really tell you very much about Charleston from an educational perspective because I barely remember it. If you think you could be easily tempted by the partying lifestyle and may slack at school, save your money and dont go to CofC. There is temptation everywhere...(and I am not just talking about tempting in terms of drinking..who wants to go to class when it is 80 degrees out in January?) Looking back I was way too immature to handle going to school there. If you think you can balance the partying and school of Charleston I give you alot of credit...I just couldn't. Campus Aesthetics: A+, Scholastic Success: D- Have a Question?

If so many Canadian players are coming back with such awful experiences and with such terrible stories about coaches, why are any still coming? Don't they have an obligation to learn, to become educated, to ask questions and to compete? Do you honestly believe every one of those hundreds?
I am still not sure what is the DI experience.
Our son attended school in San Antonio, not exactly rural. He played against Team USA in 2 separate years,competed against Huston Street, Micah Owings, Rickie Weeks,and others along with many players from SEC/ACC/Pac10 and BigWest schools. He played with a number of players who went on to become fine professional players including Chris Iannetta, the Rockies catcher seeing jumping on home plate with the 11th inning walk-off Monday night.
I am just not understanding why "brand name" baseball schools provide an experience that gets its own classification and seems to be so valued.
Is playing against a "brand name school" a better experience than being on the roster but sitting for a "brand name."
I am also not understanding why "brand name" academic institutions are "rife" with downfalls, but "brand name" baseball schools don't seem to be in your posts.

INF it's a pitcher thing you might not understand.

If I mention them you call it bragging.

quote:

Is playing against a "brand name school" a better experience than being on the roster but sitting for a "brand name

Yes I would think so.

quote:

I am still not sure what is the DI experience.

If your definition includes playing somewhere that you get your brains beat out all the time just so you can say you are a D1 player, then I don't think D1 is worth it imho.

Winning is part of the experience. If that is not part of it, then I have no clue why we even have athletic competition to begin with

quote:

Originally posted by BobbleheadDoll:
INF it's a pitcher thing you might not understand.

BHD, I was a pitcher! One reason my son become such a good hitter is I gave him lot's of confidence. When they talk about "pitching to contact," I seemed to have it mastered.

quote:

If your definition includes playing somewhere that you get your brains beat out all the time just so you can say you are a D1 player, then I don't think D1 is worth it imho.

Don't recall mentioning that in my definition . Was there a purpose in your statement ?

quote:

Was there a purpose in your statement ?

No. I was responding to infielddad's question and I included what wouldn't be part of my definition.

quote:

Originally posted by BobbleheadDoll:
INF it's a pitcher thing you might not understand.

I don't get that.

Why bring up CofC, that program has consistantly been a winning program, attended NCAA playoffs on a regular basis, under former coach and the new coach is a disciple of Ray Tanner and did well last year.

Infielddad has it right, the object is, that if you wish to play against the best it doesn't always have to be playing against a brand name school or being a a D1. Your summer experience is sooo important in that process, and you have to perform so that the coaching staff will send you off to a good league. If you don't perform in season, you don't get those opportunities, no matter where you go. That's where you are seriously considered for draft potential.

This has nothing to do with where you go to school, it's what you make of where you go,my son went to a place that was in the middle of nowhere, but with an intense baseball program, that worked in his favor. He had a great social life. Anywhere a player goes that is different than where he is from, can pose a problem, if one goes to the beach instead of class, that player most likely would find any reason not to go to class.

As far as canadians getting blind sighted, perhaps they need to do their homework just like everyone else, get in front of coaches so they are able to be fully evaluated, so that they don't show up and can't get the job done. Gee, I always got the impression from you BHD, that they were much better than those in the US. JMO.