D-man, I sent you a PM...
Some of the stuff I read here is amazing in so, so many ways.
I would be shocked if Arizona State University ever had 60 players out for fall practice. I guess it is possible, but in my experience, I have not seen it (and that experience is a least relatively extensive).
ASU is very competitive; it is not for the faint of heart. Lots of people hope -- believe -- they can play there. Some can; many cannot. It is definitely character-building.
This year, ASU had 36 out for fall practice. I believe 34 will appear on the spring roster. It is true 22 have signed for next year, but that does not mean 22 will show up. It probably won't be much different than this year. Some will leave, some will get drafted and sign, some might not make it grade-wise. JMoff mentions UofA, which last year had more players in the fall than ASU. Andy Lopez at Arizona regularly gets rid of players who don't fit into his plans. He also has players in at least the last two years who signed and then were strongly encouraged not to come in the fall. That is the way it can be in the most competitive programs. Those that do not understand that are better off not giving it a shot.
ASU baseball has great tradition and in essence is a close-knit fraternity. The players get great support and developmental opportunities on the field and off the field. Lots is expected of them on the field and off the field. Community service (a significant amount) is expected. Personal goals become secondary. Playing time is tough to achieve, but even so nearly every player who stays three years (not all) gets a shot a pro baseball.
I guess it depends on what the player is looking for. Certainly, some have left disappointed. It is not for everyone. I can say that Tim Esmay and his coaches have the best interests of every player at heart and are very good at honestly assessing the players and then communicating that assessment. They are also very good at looking after the program to sustain the long and rich tradition of Sun Devil baseball (which includes 99 players in the Major Leagues to date and which is especially impressive when you realize the program did not attain varsity status until 1959).
There are not a lot of promises made; things must be earned. I could go on and on, but I will stop there.
By the way, the school Doughnutman refers to is Pinnacle, a very good program with lots of very good players, many of whom I have coached. Nonetheless, it is not so good that anything is automatic afterward for Pinnacle players, just as it is not automatic for any player if they attempt to compete at a high enough level. Sooner or later, we all learn -- and the game tends to instill -- more humility rather than less.
I would be shocked if Arizona State University ever had 60 players out for fall practice. I guess it is possible, but in my experience, I have not seen it (and that experience is a least relatively extensive).
ASU is very competitive; it is not for the faint of heart. Lots of people hope -- believe -- they can play there. Some can; many cannot. It is definitely character-building.
This year, ASU had 36 out for fall practice. I believe 34 will appear on the spring roster. It is true 22 have signed for next year, but that does not mean 22 will show up. It probably won't be much different than this year. Some will leave, some will get drafted and sign, some might not make it grade-wise. JMoff mentions UofA, which last year had more players in the fall than ASU. Andy Lopez at Arizona regularly gets rid of players who don't fit into his plans. He also has players in at least the last two years who signed and then were strongly encouraged not to come in the fall. That is the way it can be in the most competitive programs. Those that do not understand that are better off not giving it a shot.
ASU baseball has great tradition and in essence is a close-knit fraternity. The players get great support and developmental opportunities on the field and off the field. Lots is expected of them on the field and off the field. Community service (a significant amount) is expected. Personal goals become secondary. Playing time is tough to achieve, but even so nearly every player who stays three years (not all) gets a shot a pro baseball.
I guess it depends on what the player is looking for. Certainly, some have left disappointed. It is not for everyone. I can say that Tim Esmay and his coaches have the best interests of every player at heart and are very good at honestly assessing the players and then communicating that assessment. They are also very good at looking after the program to sustain the long and rich tradition of Sun Devil baseball (which includes 99 players in the Major Leagues to date and which is especially impressive when you realize the program did not attain varsity status until 1959).
There are not a lot of promises made; things must be earned. I could go on and on, but I will stop there.
By the way, the school Doughnutman refers to is Pinnacle, a very good program with lots of very good players, many of whom I have coached. Nonetheless, it is not so good that anything is automatic afterward for Pinnacle players, just as it is not automatic for any player if they attempt to compete at a high enough level. Sooner or later, we all learn -- and the game tends to instill -- more humility rather than less.
I won't start a public ASU vs. Arizona debate, especially with a good friend like jemaz so please don't take my comments that way.
Suffice to say ALL college coaches have some difficult decisions and have to deal with fuzzy math. ASU has had some scholarship reductions recently due to Murphy's issues, so they had more money for 2013 to offer after having less last year.
I wonder if your typical D1 college coach is more worried about his attrition assumption this year (after the new MLB collective bargaining agreement) than he was when he decided how many players to sign?
It'll be interesting to see if the percentage of drafted HS seniors with college offers who end up attending school is significantly different next year than previous years. Hard to tell if the "forcing function" of drafting players in the first ten rounds will offset those late round over pays.
Suffice to say ALL college coaches have some difficult decisions and have to deal with fuzzy math. ASU has had some scholarship reductions recently due to Murphy's issues, so they had more money for 2013 to offer after having less last year.
I wonder if your typical D1 college coach is more worried about his attrition assumption this year (after the new MLB collective bargaining agreement) than he was when he decided how many players to sign?
It'll be interesting to see if the percentage of drafted HS seniors with college offers who end up attending school is significantly different next year than previous years. Hard to tell if the "forcing function" of drafting players in the first ten rounds will offset those late round over pays.
My opinion is that it is bad business to "sign a player and then strongly encourage them not to attend in the fall." Come on, those kids pass up other opportunities because they take a coach at their word, and sign an agreement.
So, the coach can screw the kid who is then left without other options in the fall when he is packing his car to go to college and the coach calls and says don't bother?
That's definitely not a man, whatever coaches fit that description, I want influencing my son for his college years. Give me a less successful program and a coach that influences more then winning at all costs.
So, the coach can screw the kid who is then left without other options in the fall when he is packing his car to go to college and the coach calls and says don't bother?
That's definitely not a man, whatever coaches fit that description, I want influencing my son for his college years. Give me a less successful program and a coach that influences more then winning at all costs.
Apologies in advance if I missed it; but, where did someone assert that players were being signed and encouraged not to attend in the fall?
Prepster, this?
quote:Originally posted by jemaz:
,,,Andy Lopez at Arizona regularly gets rid of players who don't fit into his plans. He also has players in at least the last two years who signed and then were strongly encouraged not to come in the fall. That is the way it can be in the most competitive programs. Those that do not understand that are better off not giving it a shot.
...
quote:Originally posted by calisportsfan:
My opinion is that it is bad business to "sign a player and then strongly encourage them not to attend in the fall." Come on, those kids pass up other opportunities because they take a coach at their word, and sign an agreement.
So, the coach can screw the kid who is then left without other options in the fall when he is packing his car to go to college and the coach calls and says don't bother?
That's definitely not a man, whatever coaches fit that description, I want influencing my son for his college years. Give me a less successful program and a coach that influences more then winning at all costs.
I know of two very very big programs on the east coast that does the above, one program tells them in advance there is a strong likelyhood that he will do that (ask them not to come), but they sign anyway.
I am not sure if the blame for this stuff is entirely the coaches fault if they are told in advance of what may happen.
There is a long history of this stuff at ASU, which is fine as long as you know going in. Top programs are less forgiving, but as someone posted all programs have to make tough decisions.
Thanks, keewart.
This cutting/releasing of players is based on position and the needs that the school has there. As a 2013 Outfielder, I would not sign with a school that let's say had one 2011 OF, three 2012 OF's, and one or two early commit 2013 OF's. Not being I am scared of competition, but because signing into a situation could lead to 2 things: 1) Getting cut from the roster or 2) making the roster and sitting the bench for 90% of your career.
quote:Originally posted by calisportsfan:
My opinion is that it is bad business to "sign a player and then strongly encourage them not to attend in the fall." Come on, those kids pass up other opportunities because they take a coach at their word, and sign an agreement.
So, the coach can screw the kid who is then left without other options in the fall when he is packing his car to go to college and the coach calls and says don't bother?
That's definitely not a man, whatever coaches fit that description, I want influencing my son for his college years. Give me a less successful program and a coach that influences more then winning at all costs.
Am I missing something? Do most people on this forum think this is the kind of program they want their son to play for? Are there only two options, (a) playing for a coach that runs a program like this, or (b) playing for one that will not adequately prepare son for the pros?
Some schools routinely announce all of their incoming players, not just the ones getting money, which can skew the numbers when you start adding up roster spots. Last year's scholarship player also may no longer have his money after having it pulled and be, in effect, trying out the following fall.
The key is to know your status long before the fall. If there are going to be 45-50 players in camp, then you know 10-15 are not going to make the team and the last 10 to make the team are probably not going to play much at all.
That's the reality of big-time college baseball at some schools. They key is knowing where you will fit in before you step on campus. And you must also be aware that your situation can be dramatically different a year later -- for better or for worse depending on how much opportunity you've been given.
It may sound great to go to a big-time program as an invited walk-on, but you have to be able to deal with the prospect of getting cut before you ever put a uniform on in the spring.
The key is to know your status long before the fall. If there are going to be 45-50 players in camp, then you know 10-15 are not going to make the team and the last 10 to make the team are probably not going to play much at all.
That's the reality of big-time college baseball at some schools. They key is knowing where you will fit in before you step on campus. And you must also be aware that your situation can be dramatically different a year later -- for better or for worse depending on how much opportunity you've been given.
It may sound great to go to a big-time program as an invited walk-on, but you have to be able to deal with the prospect of getting cut before you ever put a uniform on in the spring.