Regarding the shoulder, my Son has been taught to try to get his hands moving and coming through the zone before his lead shoulder begins to open up. The coach refers to premature rotation of the shoulder as "torso turn" and if it occurs too early in the swing teaches that this will slow down the hands and thus the bat speed.
Once his hands have started and the core begins to rotate then the shoulders rotate as well. The cue for my Son's coach is that the hands need to be moving first.
The hands actually start moving forward before ANY shoulder rotation? If you actually start the hands moving forward first, does this reduce the power of the swing. I remember seeing video of your son and he had, IMO, a very good swing. I'll have to see if its still up cause I don't remember seeing the hands move "forward" first. Either way, the shoulder is involved in the rotation, correct? The only question is when in the sequence?
ShawnLee there are few guys from EH that are starting to experiment with the hands. Their intense dislike of Richard will prevent them from ever admitting it, and likely it will be explained differently so as not to credit the dark side but nonetheless some are adding hands to their teaching.
I think FloridaFan has a valuable cue. In slo-motion analysis we'd see shoulder turn when hands start forward but I'd think you'd want the hands more involved in the swing than the shoulders. Shoulder turn in response to the hands, not shoulder driven.
Now in terms of watching it in slo-motion as the hands start to come forward then no-doubt the shoulders are starting to turn, but I think the emphasis needs to be on the hands and in particular turning the bat down and around the back shoulder to get a running start into the zone. Shoulders should be tension free, and as Donny/Tom stated many times the shoulders should load as the hips are unloading.
I think FloridaFan has a valuable cue. In slo-motion analysis we'd see shoulder turn when hands start forward but I'd think you'd want the hands more involved in the swing than the shoulders. Shoulder turn in response to the hands, not shoulder driven.
Now in terms of watching it in slo-motion as the hands start to come forward then no-doubt the shoulders are starting to turn, but I think the emphasis needs to be on the hands and in particular turning the bat down and around the back shoulder to get a running start into the zone. Shoulders should be tension free, and as Donny/Tom stated many times the shoulders should load as the hips are unloading.
Pronk,
See, this is an actual conversation without all the little girl drama that richard brings. Thats why people are so turned off. I've never felt that the hands were completely unused, but i don't think they add much to the power, more to making adjustments.
Please don't think I'm dismissing anything you've said, i'm not, but I'm very curious why you think the hands are more involved than the shoulders.
Also, Do you really think the hands have to actively torque the bat to get into the lag position. It seems to me that that happens as a natural process when the front elbow is raised and the rear lowered as rotation of the torso begins.
I appreciate your input. You know by now richard would have called me stupid and said I'd never get it because i didn't accept his word for it.
btw have you ever seen the video of his student hitting the ball into the pitch back and then getting hit on the shin? He has to post some of these clips as a joke.
See, this is an actual conversation without all the little girl drama that richard brings. Thats why people are so turned off. I've never felt that the hands were completely unused, but i don't think they add much to the power, more to making adjustments.
Please don't think I'm dismissing anything you've said, i'm not, but I'm very curious why you think the hands are more involved than the shoulders.
Also, Do you really think the hands have to actively torque the bat to get into the lag position. It seems to me that that happens as a natural process when the front elbow is raised and the rear lowered as rotation of the torso begins.
I appreciate your input. You know by now richard would have called me stupid and said I'd never get it because i didn't accept his word for it.
btw have you ever seen the video of his student hitting the ball into the pitch back and then getting hit on the shin? He has to post some of these clips as a joke.
Yes I do believe the hands torque the barrel. If you consider the Epstein mantra of the elbows changing relative position, I can see that. I see the front forearm going from supinated to pronated as the contributing factor in this elbow jut upward. The barrel path shows the barrel traveling much further than powering with shoulder rotation will allow. Donny Buster used to have the no-bat drill with the thumb pointing to the sky around the shoulder then you'd shift, turn the hips, and karate chop the hand into a pronated position to get a feel.
So the goal is how we create this early bat speed look? How do you create the barrel path that the MLB guys have? I like the feel of the hands being in charge, but the forearms turn the barrel. As I said I do think the shoulders load, but the loading occurs as the hips are unloading. Looking at clips, I don't know if I should use this but I'll credit Coach Peavy for this Arod overhead. In fact in the clip I left the part that credits him.
Then I slowed it down, and snipped it to a few frames. I think you see tremendous X-Factor stretch in this clip. Much more than I might have thought I saw in side clips. As the swing starts the shoulders seem to be responding to the hands. I go back and forth comparing forward hand movement to shoulder rotation, and I see the shoulders responding to what the hands need to do. Get in the zone turning from stacked to flat.
So the goal is how we create this early bat speed look? How do you create the barrel path that the MLB guys have? I like the feel of the hands being in charge, but the forearms turn the barrel. As I said I do think the shoulders load, but the loading occurs as the hips are unloading. Looking at clips, I don't know if I should use this but I'll credit Coach Peavy for this Arod overhead. In fact in the clip I left the part that credits him.
Then I slowed it down, and snipped it to a few frames. I think you see tremendous X-Factor stretch in this clip. Much more than I might have thought I saw in side clips. As the swing starts the shoulders seem to be responding to the hands. I go back and forth comparing forward hand movement to shoulder rotation, and I see the shoulders responding to what the hands need to do. Get in the zone turning from stacked to flat.
I love that video. Thanks for posting it.
I sorta see what your saying, but isn't it possible that the hands look like they are doing more than they are because the are at the end of the line and therefore have to travel much further in relation to the shoulders?
Does any other instructor of note (I only mean nationally recognized/published) say anyting about this. I'm talking about Williams, Epstein, Lau, DeRenne, Robson etc.
I know that swingbuilder will say that Williams says the hands and hips thing but I'm not sure that he was trying to completely describe what happened with that statement. I've read the Science of Hitting more than a couple of times and don't remeber any mention of anything resembling torque.
Help me out. If none of them mention it, is it likely that it's really what's happening or what someone wants to think is happening.
I sorta see what your saying, but isn't it possible that the hands look like they are doing more than they are because the are at the end of the line and therefore have to travel much further in relation to the shoulders?
Does any other instructor of note (I only mean nationally recognized/published) say anyting about this. I'm talking about Williams, Epstein, Lau, DeRenne, Robson etc.
I know that swingbuilder will say that Williams says the hands and hips thing but I'm not sure that he was trying to completely describe what happened with that statement. I've read the Science of Hitting more than a couple of times and don't remeber any mention of anything resembling torque.
Help me out. If none of them mention it, is it likely that it's really what's happening or what someone wants to think is happening.
quote:Originally posted by ShawnLee:
I love that video. Thanks for posting it.
I sorta see what your saying, but isn't it possible that the hands look like they are doing more than they are because the are at the end of the line and therefore have to travel much further in relation to the shoulders?
Does any other instructor of note (I only mean nationally recognized/published) say anyting about this. I'm talking about Williams, Epstein, Lau, DeRenne, Robson etc.
I know that swingbuilder will say that Williams says the hands and hips thing but I'm not sure that he was trying to completely describe what happened with that statement. I've read the Science of Hitting more than a couple of times and don't remeber any mention of anything resembling torque.
Help me out. If none of them mention it, is it likely that it's really what's happening or what someone wants to think is happening.
Well I don't think it's what someone thinks is happening.
When I first started looking into this I was a full-fledged s-e-t-p-r-o follower. The issue or challenge was, how do I make my barrel path look like this, and I couldn't do it brute force rotation:
Couldn't do it without using my hands. Mankin alludes to it, and I'd say to a degree Epstein's drill can encourage it, though I don't think he frames it with talk of the hands. My understanding is from those who've communicated with Jake Epstein is that he is tip and rip friendly. That is some Epstein instructors are mixing Tip and rip in as the basic load.
Lclifton speaks of the barrel making a C "or reverse C" down and around the back shoulder. You see the barrel path. At the end of the day, the barrel does seem to arc into the zone the question is how do you make it happen? I get better results by turning the forearms through the swing.
So the answer is that none of those great hitters and/or hitting coaches discuss it? Actually, it is what someone says it is as far as I can tell. Do you really think that all of these guys would have overlooked it if it was as richard describes it.
Look at Ortiz's elbows and shoulders. If most of the movement isn't directly related to them, then why does their relative position change so little.
As far as tip and rip, thats a separate concept and, I think a very valid one. My question is, what well known hitting coach or hitter has ever said anything about hand torque? Name one. I'm sure if there is one then mini-richard will name him.
Pronk, I'm not trying to offend you. I really do appreciate your discussing this like an adult, but certainly in the many years that baseball has been played, it seems unlikely that richard and swingbuilder are the only ones that got it right.
Think about it. Name a hitter or coach. What about Mike Schmidt? I'm not as familiar with his stuff but i think he is a proponent of more hand involvement. Does he say anything about hand torque on the bat?
Look at Ortiz's elbows and shoulders. If most of the movement isn't directly related to them, then why does their relative position change so little.
As far as tip and rip, thats a separate concept and, I think a very valid one. My question is, what well known hitting coach or hitter has ever said anything about hand torque? Name one. I'm sure if there is one then mini-richard will name him.
Pronk, I'm not trying to offend you. I really do appreciate your discussing this like an adult, but certainly in the many years that baseball has been played, it seems unlikely that richard and swingbuilder are the only ones that got it right.
Think about it. Name a hitter or coach. What about Mike Schmidt? I'm not as familiar with his stuff but i think he is a proponent of more hand involvement. Does he say anything about hand torque on the bat?
quote:What about Mike Schmidt?..................Does he say anything about hand torque on the bat?
Excerpt - on Page 16: " ... Worse, gravity acts to pull the head of the vertical bat down below the hands during the swing, which nullifies top hand action and hinders hip rotation. The swing becomes warped into an uppercut."
A-Rod was taught by Charley Lau, Jr. One of the tenets of Lau is to pull the knob to the ball, and that's what A-Rod practiced. What you're seeing in that A-Rod clip is exactly what Peavy wrote, that the bat is being accelerated in a linear manner by the pulling of the knob to the ball. It isn't torque, it isn't forearm swivel, he's pulling the knob to the ball linearly. A-Rod's swing contains both linear and rotational elements in his swing, and that's all you're seeing in this overhead clip.
Sacrilege! LOL, we all know that you cannot have linear and rotational movement in the same swing!
I stated that once before and was hammered!
I stated that once before and was hammered!
Rob Ellis and Schmidt were pretty close friends....
Rob Ellis said this.....
"I remember a hitting instructor who emphasized to the point of blood that no hitters were to have a high back elbow in their swings. This is a device which can (not always) be used to generate power. One of our players was doing this. The HC tossed a fit. I pointed out that Mike Schmidt used it to hit 40 homers a year and Carlos Delgado uses it to hit 50 homers a year. The HC said he realized that, but the GM wanted it stamped out completely."
Rob Ellis said this.....
"I remember a hitting instructor who emphasized to the point of blood that no hitters were to have a high back elbow in their swings. This is a device which can (not always) be used to generate power. One of our players was doing this. The HC tossed a fit. I pointed out that Mike Schmidt used it to hit 40 homers a year and Carlos Delgado uses it to hit 50 homers a year. The HC said he realized that, but the GM wanted it stamped out completely."
quote:Originally posted by BlueDog:quote:What about Mike Schmidt?..................Does he say anything about hand torque on the bat?
Excerpt - on Page 16: " ... Worse, gravity acts to pull the head of the vertical bat down below the hands during the swing, which nullifies top hand action and hinders hip rotation. The swing becomes warped into an uppercut."
Mini rich did you actually read my question? Are you trying to answer my question with that little blurb? First off, it doesn't say what top hand action is nullified, certainly doesn't mention anything regarding torque or describe anything similar.
Secondly, I've always suspected you were disingenuos, but the actual quote is refering to a problem with holding the bat vertically. QUOTE from page 16 (the actual entire quote)
"Any bat held vertically in teh stance (straight up and down) will initiate a long loop in its path to the ball, using valuable time. Worse, gravity actsto pull the head of the vertical bat down below the hands during the swing, which nullifies top hand action and hinders hip rotation. The swing becomes warped into an uppercut."
Does that sound like it answers my question to you? Didn't think so.
FYI just because I said I wasn't as familiar with Schmidt, doesn't mean i don't have the book. Nice try though, I guess.
Mini rich, I just read your second post and now i know you didn't read mine cause that says nothing to address my question. Do you and richard have strategy sessions to discuss ways to avoid answering straight forward questions. I must say, however, that you are less of a jerk than he in most of your responses.
Do you know swingbuilder?
Do you know swingbuilder?
Shawnlee,
You are begining to let this thread degenerate to personal attacks similar to those you complain about just a few posts earlier. Just an observation, I am sure you do not wish to take Loose Cannon's place.
You are begining to let this thread degenerate to personal attacks similar to those you complain about just a few posts earlier. Just an observation, I am sure you do not wish to take Loose Cannon's place.
quote:Originally posted by ShawnLee:
Mini rich, I just read your second post and now i know you didn't read mine cause that says nothing to address my question. Do you and richard have strategy sessions to discuss ways to avoid answering straight forward questions. I must say, however, that you are less of a jerk than he in most of your responses.
Do you know swingbuilder?
Strategy sessions are part and parcel of the EH guys. I have never even spoken to Richard. In fact in the online hitting world besides the guys I know in person, the only guys I've talked with are Lclifton, Dmac, Fungo and Steve. So near as I can tell there are no conference calls and I am as active a poster as HI as probably anyone next to Tom Guerry and Richard. Why are we talking about this? It's data.
I had the privilege of playing with Hank Aaron when I was with the Milwaukee Brewers in 1974-76. I clearly remember his unusually level swing plane. This was the reason for his nickname "The Hammer."
He had a pronounced top hand action, like a hammer blow, which pounded the bat down through the strike zone, the head of his bat tracing out a remarkable level path. His home runs were largely long line drives, belted out with the level cut meeting the center of the ball and imparting backspin."
Quote by Rob Ellis
He had a pronounced top hand action, like a hammer blow, which pounded the bat down through the strike zone, the head of his bat tracing out a remarkable level path. His home runs were largely long line drives, belted out with the level cut meeting the center of the ball and imparting backspin."
Quote by Rob Ellis
You are right. I should keep it to the simple facts. I did ask a fairly simple question and what bluedog replied twice, did not, I believe have any real relavance. I have a hard time imagining an innocent excuse for the partial quote from page 16 of Schmidt's book.
I'm on here to ask questions and learn. I have no problem with someone who has a different opinion. I do get frustrated when i believe people are being intentionaly deceptive.
Florida, I assume you read both my question and blue dogs answers. I've seen enough of your posts to respect your opinion. Do you think my interpretation of his answers was incorrect and that he really believed he was honestly answering my original post?
I don't want to put you on the spot and if you don't wish to answer I will understand. But i would appreciate your opinion.
I'm on here to ask questions and learn. I have no problem with someone who has a different opinion. I do get frustrated when i believe people are being intentionaly deceptive.
Florida, I assume you read both my question and blue dogs answers. I've seen enough of your posts to respect your opinion. Do you think my interpretation of his answers was incorrect and that he really believed he was honestly answering my original post?
I don't want to put you on the spot and if you don't wish to answer I will understand. But i would appreciate your opinion.
quote:which nullifies top hand action and hinders hip rotation.
Why do you think the emphasis is on hand action and the hips?
Seems like a constant theme to me.....
Pronk,
My post about the call was directed at blue dog, not you. As you see, he has made yet another post that doesn't address my question. Do you know of any well known hitters or coaches who directly mentioned torquing the handle (in any words)?
I'm not sure about the data reference. It seems to me that it would be important to know if any of the great hitters and/or coaches of the last century's worth of baseball had though this impotant.
Don't you think so?
My post about the call was directed at blue dog, not you. As you see, he has made yet another post that doesn't address my question. Do you know of any well known hitters or coaches who directly mentioned torquing the handle (in any words)?
I'm not sure about the data reference. It seems to me that it would be important to know if any of the great hitters and/or coaches of the last century's worth of baseball had though this impotant.
Don't you think so?
quote:Originally posted by BlueDog:quote:which nullifies top hand action and hinders hip rotation.
Why do you think the emphasis is on hand action and the hips?
Seems like a constant theme to me.....
So your official answer is that you don't know of any who said so?
You can't swing a bat with hands. I think everyone will agree with that, therefore I'm sure every one of those hitters made SOME reference to them. My question is who said anything about or described torque?
Do you know swingbuilder?
quote:You can't swing a bat with hands.
Maybe in your mind.........
That was a typo. I meant to say without hands. Which is why everyone will mention them. But I still haven't found any refeence to the type of hand torqueing that you and richard say happens.
Help me out here. Who, in the history of baseball described it?
Also, why do you pick out the one typo but won't answer the question. You either know of someone or you don't.
Help me out here. Who, in the history of baseball described it?
Also, why do you pick out the one typo but won't answer the question. You either know of someone or you don't.
quote:Originally posted by ShawnLee:
So the answer is that none of those great hitters and/or hitting coaches discuss it? Actually, it is what someone says it is as far as I can tell. Do you really think that all of these guys would have overlooked it if it was as richard describes it.
Look at Ortiz's elbows and shoulders. If most of the movement isn't directly related to them, then why does their relative position change so little.
As far as tip and rip, thats a separate concept and, I think a very valid one. My question is, what well known hitting coach or hitter has ever said anything about hand torque? Name one. I'm sure if there is one then mini-richard will name him.
Pronk, I'm not trying to offend you. I really do appreciate your discussing this like an adult, but certainly in the many years that baseball has been played, it seems unlikely that richard and swingbuilder are the only ones that got it right.
Look, in the many years of great hitters how many have said the hands are there to just hang onto the bat? Mankin has discussed the arc, doesn't he count?
In any case it doesn't matter what guru you use if you can get barrel path and separation like the MLB hitters. I challenge you accomplish that with your shoulders. With no assist of the hands. Secondly there are likely hitting coaches all over that speak to the hands. How many have studied film? I have no idea. The goal is to make that barrel's rearward arc occur when the hips are opening. A pronated back hand cannot come forward as it's first move.
Lclifton speaks of a test you can use. Put the bat in the back hand without the lead arm on the bat. Have the palm facing down at launch and try to get the barrel into the zone.
Tip and Rip is not a separate matter. If the barrel is cocked towards the field, the hands are stacked, and they must quickly get flat.
quote:I meant to say without hands. Which is why everyone will mention them.
But, it is rather odd that they almost always mention hands and hips together in the same sentence....That seems to be where their concentration is......I wonder why?
Mankin is relatively new and I don't think he played or coached. One of the biggest problems that some profess to have with N****n is that he is an engineer and only had a few at bats. richard says this all the time. So i guess you guys want to have yur cake and eat it too.
You're exactly right that all or many coaches talk about the hands. They also talk about the shoulders and the hips. I've never heard any, first hand or in writing talk about or describe the torque of the hands the way that richard does.
Does it not seem likely to you that in all the storied history of the great game of baseball, that someone would have figured this out if it were really that important.
Pronk, I am truly happy for your child's improvement and I too have a son who is a pretty good hitter. The reason i wade through all the b.s. on these boards is to help him better himself. It just seems to defy logic that no one has ever described hand torque this way before.
Regardless, best of luck to you. I hope that you do not find belatedly that active hand torquing was not what caused your son's improvement.
You're exactly right that all or many coaches talk about the hands. They also talk about the shoulders and the hips. I've never heard any, first hand or in writing talk about or describe the torque of the hands the way that richard does.
Does it not seem likely to you that in all the storied history of the great game of baseball, that someone would have figured this out if it were really that important.
Pronk, I am truly happy for your child's improvement and I too have a son who is a pretty good hitter. The reason i wade through all the b.s. on these boards is to help him better himself. It just seems to defy logic that no one has ever described hand torque this way before.
Regardless, best of luck to you. I hope that you do not find belatedly that active hand torquing was not what caused your son's improvement.
quote:But I still haven't found any refeence to the type of hand torqueing that you and richard say happens.
Video of MLB hitters is about as good as it gets, IMO.........
Blue dog,
Forget it. You are obviously not going to answer the question. Whether it's embarassment or obstinance matters little. I'll go back to lurking and leave you guys to your internet hitting wars.
I can't help but say that i'm a little disapointed that someone didn't have courage to say "No I don't know of anyone who described it but i still believe it's happening"
I doubt that this will mean anything to you, but remember that "integrity is doing the right thing when no one is watching" Or something like that. Posting online is like no one watching. Only you know if you are being honest.
Forget it. You are obviously not going to answer the question. Whether it's embarassment or obstinance matters little. I'll go back to lurking and leave you guys to your internet hitting wars.
I can't help but say that i'm a little disapointed that someone didn't have courage to say "No I don't know of anyone who described it but i still believe it's happening"
I doubt that this will mean anything to you, but remember that "integrity is doing the right thing when no one is watching" Or something like that. Posting online is like no one watching. Only you know if you are being honest.
I posted that last one prior to seeing your last. So you did answer the question and the answer is no.
Thanks
Thanks
ShawnLee, I don't know of any great hitters who have given credit to anyone in particular for their hitting success.......
Perhaps you do, but I doubt it......
I have read accounts by some of the past greats who said they learned from emulating great hitters who were still playing in their era......
I have read about all of the greats talk about the importance of the hands and the hips in hitting at one time or another.....Again, seems to be a constant theme....
I've yet to read anything about a great hitter talking about connecting their hands to their shoulder and rotating to the ball using their pelvic muscles..
Have you?...
Perhaps you do, but I doubt it......
I have read accounts by some of the past greats who said they learned from emulating great hitters who were still playing in their era......
I have read about all of the greats talk about the importance of the hands and the hips in hitting at one time or another.....Again, seems to be a constant theme....
I've yet to read anything about a great hitter talking about connecting their hands to their shoulder and rotating to the ball using their pelvic muscles..
Have you?...
Honestly I don't have the rich history of batting instruction, down through time regarding who said what. Hand torque is but a term. Forearms turning. MLB hitters are reported to have forearms that are incredibly strong.
In any case I have *****'s materials, Steve's DVDs, Epsteins DVD, Yeager's DVD, and another one I like is John Cohen from UK Baseball. Now if you watch hitters on hitting or listen to a pro-hitter talk about getting quick with his hands, why do we have to bemoan that the specific term "hand torque" is not used. If a hitter feels like he has to be quick with his hands and has a barrel that is vertical, and he has to get that palm up/palm down extension, then one can reasonably assume they might at least be speaking of prepping the hands for action.
It's not just me getting good results focusing on the barrel path. What do you have to say about Lclifton's daughter? Stealth' son. I am certain not everyone there agrees with every little nuance or Richard's message board style, but getting the hands into the swing is working well. And again this is only speaking of those publicly trying to incorporate the hands. Others cannot come out and say.
In any case I have *****'s materials, Steve's DVDs, Epsteins DVD, Yeager's DVD, and another one I like is John Cohen from UK Baseball. Now if you watch hitters on hitting or listen to a pro-hitter talk about getting quick with his hands, why do we have to bemoan that the specific term "hand torque" is not used. If a hitter feels like he has to be quick with his hands and has a barrel that is vertical, and he has to get that palm up/palm down extension, then one can reasonably assume they might at least be speaking of prepping the hands for action.
It's not just me getting good results focusing on the barrel path. What do you have to say about Lclifton's daughter? Stealth' son. I am certain not everyone there agrees with every little nuance or Richard's message board style, but getting the hands into the swing is working well. And again this is only speaking of those publicly trying to incorporate the hands. Others cannot come out and say.
quote:Originally posted by BlueDog:
ShawnLee, I don't know of any great hitters who have given credit to anyone in particular for their hitting success.......
Perhaps you do, but I doubt it......
I have read accounts by some of the past greats who said they learned from emulating great hitters who were still playing in their era......
I have read about all of the greats talk about the importance of the hands and the hips in hitting at one time or another.....Again, seems to be a constant theme....
I've yet to read anything about a great hitter talking about connecting their hands to their shoulder and rotating to the ball using their pelvic muscles..
Have you?...
Watch how easy this is. I'll actually answer your questions.
I believe that Williams credited Hornsby for one.
This wasn't a question, but I too have read where many talked about the hips and hands ( as well as shoulders, legs etc.)
I have never heard a great hitter reference connecting their hands to their shoulder and rotating to the ball using the pelvic muscles.
See how easy that was. You ask a question. I answer it to the best of my ability and knowledge.
I thought my original question was simple enough for all to follow but I may have overestimated my audience. Let me try again:
Of all the hitters and coaches who have tried to write detailed descriptions of the swing i.e. Williams, Lau, Epstein, Schmidt, or for that matter, Dusty Baker or anyone else you can name that is well known. Do you know of any who, in their effort to detail the swing, described the hand torque that you are talking about?
(This has nothing to do with one player giving another player credit for deleloping their swing)
Can you answer that question or do i assume the answer is no but you for some reason won't admit it.
I will also say, I've yet to hear any great hitter talk about setting swing plane by the use of posture....
Even taking into consideration the flat swing planes of the old-time greats and the upward swing planes of the modern-day greats.......
Have you ShawnLee?
Even taking into consideration the flat swing planes of the old-time greats and the upward swing planes of the modern-day greats.......
Have you ShawnLee?
You did it again. I tried to simplify it for you and you still won't do it just ask anotehr question. OK, my answer is No I don't recall ever hearing that. What is your point. Why can't you answer my question.
Pronk,
I wasn't looking for an exact quote, just a description that matches. Again, I'm glad for all of your success. I hope it continues.
I wasn't looking for an exact quote, just a description that matches. Again, I'm glad for all of your success. I hope it continues.
Hey shawnLee,this clip gives reference to the hands and forearms,I think you will find it interesting.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JwogLVGtDa8
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JwogLVGtDa8
tfox,
Thanks. Nice clip. Almost all the old timers talked about how important the hands were. In the Science of Hitting, Williams likened the swing to chopping into a tree with an axe and said that wrist action is overemphasized.
Go figure.
Thanks. Nice clip. Almost all the old timers talked about how important the hands were. In the Science of Hitting, Williams likened the swing to chopping into a tree with an axe and said that wrist action is overemphasized.
Go figure.
quote:Originally posted by ShawnLee:
tfox,
Thanks. Nice clip. Almost all the old timers talked about how important the hands were. In the Science of Hitting, Williams likened the swing to chopping into a tree with an axe and said that wrist action is overemphasized.
Go figure.
Toward the end of that clip they show his grip. Swingbuster was a big advocate of bending the top hand back (knuckles to wrist).
Forget the term hand torque if that is a stumbling block, and try to create the barrel path you see with Ortiz.
quote:Originally posted by ShawnLee:
Does it not seem likely to you that in all the storied history of the great game of baseball, that someone would have figured this out if it were really that important.
I realize this quote is in reference to your question about the relevance of hand torque, but couldn't this also be said about many of the other theories and teachings on swing mechanics?
Some of the teachings from the "old days" are now either questioned or accepted because of what? Some of the more recent theories, whether they come from well-known people or not, have been derived from what?......video technology.
Sure, some if it comes from experience and trial and error, but a big part of it comes from the rapid advancement of video technology and the information age that we now live in.
Until just a few years ago, how many people had the resources or access to the MLB video clips that get discussed on here everyday? For various reasons, not many. Slo-motion video clips for dads/coaches/gurus is a great learning/teaching tool and has brought about many new ideas.
Problem is, many of the varying beliefs are based on what everyone thinks they SEE (thus, the many arguments). Only over time and through trial and error will any of them prove to have merit.
Since Richard is being discussed in this thread, isn't his hand torque theory one of the newer ideas out there? Other than the few people who have professed to have significant success with his method, shouldn't the trial and error period and their results be allowed more time before it can be discounted? As with any other theories, I would think so.
The trial and error method has been one of the valuable tools that I have used over the years as a high school coach, but with all the new info that can be read or viewed nowdays, it sure can make that process more time consuming and difficult. Since I'm obsessed with tying to find "a better way", I suppose that's a good problem to have.
Great hitters already know how to use the hips to create separation, that's why they only talk about the hands so much.
Whether or not past great hitters mentioned the word "torque" or not, they certainly exhibited pronation and supination of the hands. Here is Williams.
Check out this drill. You should be able to feel the separation doing this.
Notice the external rotation of the top hand, or slotting of the elbow, however you want to name it. This is caused by the inertia of the bat (in a real swing). Very similar to the external rotation in throwing, when the forearm lays back.
Whether or not past great hitters mentioned the word "torque" or not, they certainly exhibited pronation and supination of the hands. Here is Williams.
Check out this drill. You should be able to feel the separation doing this.
Notice the external rotation of the top hand, or slotting of the elbow, however you want to name it. This is caused by the inertia of the bat (in a real swing). Very similar to the external rotation in throwing, when the forearm lays back.
