Some of you guys are getting all hung up over the word torque, at least everyone but blue dog who just ignores the question and asks his own instead. I only use the term to save having to describe it every time.
I don't care what you call it, what i'm referring to is the active pulling back of the top hand at the inception of the swing. I think this move can be produced with a twisting/rotating of the shoulders that is less likely to pull the bat out of the desired path.
I agree that video has changed a lot of things. All i did is ask if anyone had any knowledge of any hitter or coach with CREDENTIALS who ever mentioned this movement. If you recall, richard's argument is always that he FEELS it and you can't understand looking at video. Well shouldn't someone have felt it before.
That simple question has obviously stirred up a bunch of people. No one has yet had the brass to just say yes or no. I think some of you guys need to examine yourselves and determine if you are arguing from knowledge or emotion.
Anyway, look at the clip of richard. Is he not getting into that position by use of shoulders and elbows?
He's holding onto a post. I doubt he's torquing it with his hands!
quote:Originally posted by BlueDog:
I don't know of any great hitters who have given credit to anyone in particular for their hitting success.......
Perhaps you do, but I doubt it......
...
Say BlueDog,
Happy New Year.
I see you continue living up to your self proclaimed Occupation (i.e. Prognosticator)
To help:
I know of several great hitters who have given credit to one in particular for their hitting success.......
Regards
Bear
quote:Originally posted by ShawnLee:
I don't care what you call it, what i'm referring to is the active pulling back of the top hand at the inception of the swing. I think this move can be produced with a twisting/rotating of the shoulders that is less likely to pull the bat out of the desired path.
I agree that video has changed a lot of things. All i did is ask if anyone had any knowledge of any hitter or coach with CREDENTIALS who ever mentioned this movement. If you recall, richard's argument is always that he FEELS it and you can't understand looking at video. Well shouldn't someone have felt it before.
That simple question has obviously stirred up a bunch of people. No one has yet had the brass to just say yes or no. I think some of you guys need to examine yourselves and determine if you are arguing from knowledge or emotion.
Who has credentials? Candrea? Slaught? For what's it's worth I'm told Slaught and by extension Candrea/Enquist have a drill called Live and Independent hands. I've not seen their materials, but here is a description from a poster, Shelby Richards, listening to Richard speak about the hands turning the vault door:
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If you have the ability to view Mike Candrea's and Sue Enquist's RVP DVD then you will see that Mike performs a drill that he calls Live-and-Independent-Hands. In this drill his hands move just as you describe.
In this drill he points the bat head towards the second baseman from his stance. From here he leads with his elbow back towards the catcher and the hands move independently of the shoulders. With the bat tilted back to the second baseman, the initial hand action is an over exaggeration of what you describe. The feeling that Mike gets when he hits this way is that of a strong hit and he is quoted as saying "boy did that feel good". Mike goes on to say that this action creates the good whipping action that you see in good solid swings.
This hand action that you are describing is a bit of a non-teach for many individuals. If the bat is tilted back towards the field, and if the objective is to reach contact with a palm-up position with the top hand, then the action that you describe will take place. The initial action of this hand action results in extra momentum into the swing. As Candrea shows in his example, the tilting of the bat back towards the 2B position helps one learn the hand action that you are describing.
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The other thing is you seem to be getting hung up on "pulling the top hand back". Walking up to the vault door and turning the it, doesn't mean I am pulling the hand back. The barrel is going rearward by action of the forearms, while the hands pretty much stay around the armpit, I am not pulling the hand back. The rear forearm goes from pronated to supinated. Have you tried launching a swing with the barrel tipped towards oppo? And can you completely change the direction of the knob without the use of the hands?
Thank you for the input. I've not seen Candrea's stuff. I have seen the Right View Pro baseball instructional and don't recall anything similar. Didn't Slaught do the RVP stuff?
As far as the top hand back thing, I guess thats just the limitation of my language skills. I was trying to describe a move I'm pretty sure is what you just described, I just didn't have words.
I do appreciate someone finally trying to answer the question i posed. I have no agenda except to learn more. I do have near total disdain for richard because of the way he treats people on these boards but that doesn't mean I've closed my mind to what he says, If I had I wouldn't have asked the question.
Its a shame blue dog couldn't get around to actually trying to answer it instead of dancing around the subject but i guess that's just his nature for whatever reason.
As far as the top hand back thing, I guess thats just the limitation of my language skills. I was trying to describe a move I'm pretty sure is what you just described, I just didn't have words.
I do appreciate someone finally trying to answer the question i posed. I have no agenda except to learn more. I do have near total disdain for richard because of the way he treats people on these boards but that doesn't mean I've closed my mind to what he says, If I had I wouldn't have asked the question.
Its a shame blue dog couldn't get around to actually trying to answer it instead of dancing around the subject but i guess that's just his nature for whatever reason.
quote:Originally posted by ShawnLee:
Thank you for the input. I've not seen Candrea's stuff. I have seen the Right View Pro baseball instructional and don't recall anything similar. Didn't Slaught do the RVP stuff?
I doubt anyone took more abuse from Richard than Tom or Donny Buster, but once the information lined up, they all got along fine.
I don't have RVP or Candrea, it just seems that second-handed I am seeing both have some drill called live and independent hands. Each might name the drill differently. I will also go back and watch my John Cohen DVD. He has a drill called barrel awareness where he wants the barrel tipped out towards 2B, to mimic getting a feel for the barrel like Sheffield and Vladimir. He specifically calls out to mimic their style, I just don't recall him speak directly to the hands. However he doesn't talk about the shoulders moving the barrel either, so leaving out hands isn't an indicator of his beliefs.
It seems like we might be describing "tipping" as "wrapping" at this point. Not sure I care for that description.
Getting back to video, how many great hitters point the barrel to second base? Maybe I'm misunderstanding the intent of that description, which wouldn't be anything new.
Getting back to video, how many great hitters point the barrel to second base? Maybe I'm misunderstanding the intent of that description, which wouldn't be anything new.
quote:Originally posted by PGStaff:
It seems like we might be describing "tipping" as "wrapping" at this point. Not sure I care for that description.
Getting back to video, how many great hitters point the barrel to second base? Maybe I'm misunderstanding the intent of that description, which wouldn't be anything new.
As Dmac used to do he'd put up 20-30 clips of great hitters. Not all tip the same way. Donny had the BHUT (Work bottom hand under Top) description of the helmet splitters. Many who split the helmet are Manny, Cabrera, David Wright. Bat tipping I think can just be a vertical bat. Some point out to 2B, some to the P, (speaking of righties). The point being there is no right or wrong way, just many great hitters who seem to do it. Not an absolute by any stretch, but learning to load the barrel out of plane might make learning to separate easier.
Splitting the helmet is one thing, and I sure have no problem with what BBScout/DMac described as "Tip and Rip".
But who tips and then rips from a position where their bat is pointing to second base? If that is what is being described here. To me this would not be a case of no right or wrong... This sounds simply wrong!
If there are any video examples of the above (pointing bat to 2B) could someone post it? I am confused!
But who tips and then rips from a position where their bat is pointing to second base? If that is what is being described here. To me this would not be a case of no right or wrong... This sounds simply wrong!
If there are any video examples of the above (pointing bat to 2B) could someone post it? I am confused!
quote:Originally posted by PGStaff:
Splitting the helmet is one thing, and I sure have no problem with what BBScout/DMac described as "Tip and Rip".
But who tips and then rips from a position where their bat is pointing to second base? If that is what is being described here. To me this would not be a case of no right or wrong... This sounds simply wrong!
Typically the hands are working the bat back on on plane. Barrel load is out of plane. Swingbuster used to describe as a late shoulder load. Shoulders load, as hips unload. This could be an up in move of the elbow.
Since Vlad is a more extreme tipper, a side and front view. Barrel floats back on plane is on the move. See the hips opening, as the the elbow goes in from the front view. Dmac was adamant that the barrel never stops, once it starts.
PG have you checked your PMs?
quote:Originally posted by Pronk:quote:Originally posted by PGStaff:
It seems like we might be describing "tipping" as "wrapping" at this point. Not sure I care for that description.
Getting back to video, how many great hitters point the barrel to second base? Maybe I'm misunderstanding the intent of that description, which wouldn't be anything new.
As Dmac used to do he'd put up 20-30 clips of great hitters. Not all tip the same way. Donny had the BHUT (Work bottom hand under Top) description of the helmet splitters. Many who split the helmet are Manny, Cabrera, David Wright. Bat tipping I think can just be a vertical bat. Some point out to 2B, some to the P, (speaking of righties). The point being there is no right or wrong way, just many great hitters who seem to do it. Not an absolute by any stretch, but learning to load the barrel out of plane might make learning to separate easier.
Not an absolute by any stretch, but learning to load the barrel out of plane might make learning to separate easier.[/QUOTE]
. Dmac at the time was discovering the great hitters tipping the barrel and convinced his minor league playing son to rework his swing to the tip and rip. And this is what he said.
Quote:
Tipping does a couple of things that I like. It starts your bat in an upright (vertical) position which makes it much easier to then swing the bat and get some loft in your swing. If the tipping is done properly, it also gets the bathead a running start instead of swinging from a dead start that 95% of all amateur players do.
Get your hands back about even with your back tittie and then move them away from your body about 10" and then tip the bathead out towards the pitcher and then swing it without stopping anywhere in between.
If you raise your hands to hit like Bonds, then start your hands about level with your back tittie. If you lower your hands to hit like Vlad, then start them above your back shoulder. In both cases the hands will be at about shoulder height when your front foot comes down, but the difference will be that you have the bathead already moving and you will be creating loft in your swing.
If you want to hit the ball on the ground, then don't pay any attention to what I have just said.
Now those are basically just words that may or may not resonate with you, however strongly consider the advice. In this setup, your back elbow is significantly behind the hands (helps prevent armsy, elbow leading or bat drag) like this:
Now you will need to find an arm slot you like. Personally I think figuring out a way so that the lead arm is not completely extended and (so it can go past the tittie a little bit) is fine if you can maintain your rear elbow as high as or slightly above the hands. But be careful about stretching the lead arm too much. Everyone is different, but just having a good arm setup will at least help. Take your a clip or picture and compare your arms to Ortiz.
The other thing Ortiz and most great hitters figure out, is that the back elbow whatever height you choose (could be Jeff Kent) remains this way until you get the lead leg, (thus the hips) starting to open.
In this clip you should clearly study the back elbow and when it starts coming down, and when the hips open. The hint is your lower body better get started, to stretch the lower body briefly ahead of the upper body.
Lastly if the barrel is up as you stride, the hands are likely stacked one on top of the other, as the hips begin to open you need to from stacked hands to flat hands and fast. Turn the barrel with your hands to get them into proper palm-up/palm down position.
Summary:
Get good arm action in your setup (prevents the hands from coming forward to soon, and letting the lower body open up while the upper stays in there)
Keep the barrel up or tip it up as you stride
Hips lead the way
Get your hands flat quickly - The forearms must rotate
Just some stuff I thought worth saving..you get LOFT and EARLY bat speed..if you dont have early bat speed you'll never be succeessful outside..if you cant get loft then..you know..retire
