Run 2 Miles in "x" time to make 2020 HS team - your thoughts?

Endurance running is pretty useless for baseball. It doesn't hurt to do it but I don't think cc or miggy run a good mile and they play mlb, baseball is about explosiveness, not fitness.

Maybe the coach wants to test for willpower to train for it and fight through it.

Personally I think a bit of aerobic training is not bad for athletes because it improves ability to recover and withstand hard training. Shouldn't be the main focus of training but a little can't hurt.

To really improve in baseball jumping and sprinting helps a lot more but a bit of aerobic training won't hurt you either as it is a myth that endurance running makes you slow (several world class endurance runners could go the 100 in under 11s), it just doesn't make you fast.

I wouldn't say it's the focus, I would just say that is one of the basic requirements to make he team. Is it important or valuable to baseball at all? Probably not. Is it going to force kids to get in better shape for when they show up for tryouts in Feb? Yes. I would go as far as to say the time likely doesn't matter and the coach is saying it to get the kids running and in shape. 

As for the coach, I don't think he expects better baseball players from a timed run. Whether a kid is a better college prospect is really none of his concern either. The odds are that there are plenty of nonathletic kids who can't do 2 miles in 18 minutes and he wants to get rid of them before having a weeklong tryout where those guys are taking reps away from borderline players. 

My son's high school coach has everyone run the mile for time at baseball try-outs. It's not necessarily a main determining factor to make the team, but if you don't make the 6:00 target the first day, you have to run it again every consecutive day until you make it (target increases by 0:15 each day). I believe the coach uses it to see how his players approach the challenge; whether or not they prepare (this expectation is not a secret); and how they handle coming back day 2, 3, 4 and 5 and whether they have a different plan than the day before ;-). We are a top 6A team in Arizona.

do I want my kid playing for a HS coach who would turn down Bartolo Colon?  

bandera posted:

do I want my kid playing for a HS coach who would turn down Bartolo Colon?  

Yeah, I don't think you need "Big Sexy" on a high school team 

Chances are it’s a challenge to have the kids show up in shape ready to go. My son’s high school coach expected players to show up ready to go full speed including their arms being ready. 

Play a winter sport? Not an excuse. He opened the gym at 5:45am for winter sport athletes. When my son played basketball he started throwing February 1st. Baseball started March 1st.

When he stopped playing basketball he hit and/or did physical training every school day afternoon all winter season. He didn’t start throwing until February 1st even when he didn’t play basketball.

YachtRocker posted:

My son's HS coach has just announced (it's mid November 2019) that all 2020 team prospects will need to run 2 Miles within some yet to be determined time by end of February to be considered for the HS team in 2020 

Ok, yes I understand athletes of reasonable fitness should be able to run 2 miles.. but making that the focus for a sport that otherwise embodies sprinting?   Is that a worthwhile part of baseball training in 2020?  (can it help someone be a better baseball player - or better college prospect?)

Just curious as to your thoughts,  and what time might be reasonable for a HS prospect in a 2 mile "run"?  Is there a speed/time that represents reasonable baseball "fitness"?

thanks! 

Yacht, one of my sons had two different college HC's require running a mile under XX to be eligible to see the playing field or, in the case of a JC, to make the roster.  In each case, I'm pretty sure the reason had less to do with any conditioning benefits than other.  Generally, an aspiring player will be presented with new hurdles to overcome on a regular basis.  Often, one could question the "fairness" of the circumstances surrounding the hurdles.  Doesn't matter.  Doesn't do any good to ponder that aspect.  The player needs to take on the mentality that he will expect hurdles and attack them with ferocity as they come... that attitude will be required if he is to maximize how far he can take his playing ability.

As a HS coach, I have had to play hardball a few times with players that needed pushed to work on their overall conditioning... a few responded and went on to good things in the game (and elsewhere).  A few did not and failed to reach their goals or come close to reaching their potential.

I say this knowing that your son has challenges with that particular aspect but is strong in other aspects.  Part of me is tempted to ask more circumstantial questions.  But, at the end of the day, it doesn't matter.  He needs to attack the hurdle.  Once that is the primary focus, then we can talk about other steps that can be taken.  I suspect that if he fully buys in and does this, things will work out.  In fact, this could very well turn out to be exactly what he needs at exactly the right time.

Best to him!  And, keep us informed.

My son had to do similar, but think it was a mile. He's a pitcher in good shape but thinks long distance running is useless. Offered to do it as a series of sprints  ;-).

I don't think the coach did it as a fitness test. I think he did it as team building. I don't know that I agree, but in the grand scheme of things it's a pretty small thing and for my son it was an indication that the coach would have them running all the time.

I don't suppose the coach is an Army guy? I know that a timed 2-mile run is part of the Army physical fitness test and required for any solider to graduate from boot camp. Maybe just borrowing from that.

My son had to do it in college every year the first day of practice.  One year, there was a motel that was doing a food drive where the visiting teams stayed.  The coach made every player bring supplies to give to the food drive to support it.  When they got to practice that day, with their food, he made them run the food supplies to the motel.  My son said he felt so bad for the kid who brought the large bag of rice, like 20 pounds.  Some how word had gotten out about what they thought coach might do so most brought small cans.  But it made a point.  The pitchers had to run regularly around town to different places as part of their training and recovery and sometimes punishment.   He had one particular former alumni that always came to the game when he was able but could not anymore but sat on his porch every day.  The coach would make someone who was having a crappy practice so see him and spend some time with him.  They would have to run about a mile to his house and spend at least 15 minutes with him.  The coach would always tell them when they got back, baseball is fun.  One day you will be sitting on a porch.  Some things coaches do have nothing really to do with baseball but a lot to do with life.  Getting someone ready for the future is what sports is all about.  Tell your son and his friends they can complain or they can get ready for life.  I think it has nothing to do with baseball but may have more to do with culling out or helping them get ready.

bandera posted:

do I want my kid playing for a HS coach who would turn down Bartolo Colon?  

https://m.facebook.com/mlb/videos/10155053800097451/

Its anecdotal I know, but one of my friends who was a successful DIII pitcher said that running/jogging really helped him improve strength and be a better pitcher.  Push ups too of course.  This was in the late 80s so who knows!  In any event, this requirement doesn't bother me much.

we all know that nothing people did in past generations has any merit. if you don't subscribe to weighted balls, elevate and celebrate while running a 6.5 you have no place in the game....search twitter for any needed confirmation. 

Those old guys didn't know a damn thing because driveline says so. 

sorry for the rant - carry on. 

BBMomAZ posted:

but if you don't make the 6:00 target the first day, you have to run it again every consecutive day until you make it (target increases by 0:15 each day)

6:00 minute mile? How many kids made it on day one? And do you mean it changes to 5:45 the next day or 6:15? If it's 6:15 the next day then that sounds reasonable!

ABSORBER posted:

BBMomAZ posted:

but if you don't make the 6:00 target the first day, you have to run it again every consecutive day until you make it (target increases by 0:15 each day)

6:00 minute mile? How many kids made it on day one? And do you mean it changes to 5:45 the next day or 6:15? If it's 6:15 the next day then that sounds reasonable!

They are allowed additional 15 seconds every day. I estimate that about 60 kids try out for our baseball program and that about 1/3 of the boys made the 6:00 minute mile on the first try.

Son’s P5 baseball team is known as the second track team for the school according to the players!

Upon speaking with other parents from my son’s travel team days...their sons are running a lot also.

At some point the HS players need to get use to running...

Scott Munroe posted:

Son’s P5 baseball team is known as the second track team for the school according to the players!

Upon speaking with other parents from my son’s travel team days...their sons are running a lot also.

At some point the HS players need to get use to running...

 

Yup, one of son's schools ran sand dunes uphill something like 3x per week all fall, REALLY early a.m.  If you were late, you ran around a very large campus instead of getting a short break before weights. 

A lot of guys think if they can really swing it or wing it, they can just show up and do their thing.  At most schools, you are going to have to jump in and survive a serious S&C program in the fall and that will include some extensive running, whether sprints, distance, shuttles, etc.

I absolutely do not think that the boys should just "show up and do their thing" 

But putting the only emphasis on the boys training for a qualifying 2 mile run versus training for sprints, (which constitute the majority of baseball running) seemed a little misguided to me. 

So for those who may think my post was because I feel this is being too hard on little "Yacht  Jr".. LOL

YES I think they should train & train hard, be pushed & pushed hard.

& YES I think their running 2 miles is not unreasonable..

BUT, I think they should be equally or more emphasizing training for & running Sprints..

And I'm really appreciative for all the comments and enjoying the discussion.

He could be made to do this before practice...

YachtRocker posted:

I absolutely do not think that the boys should just "show up and do their thing" 

But putting the only emphasis on the boys training for a qualifying 2 mile run versus training for sprints, (which constitute the majority of baseball running) seemed a little misguided to me. 

So for those who may think my post was because I feel this is being too hard on little "Yacht  Jr".. LOL

YES I think they should train & train hard, be pushed & pushed hard.

& YES I think their running 2 miles is not unreasonable..

BUT, I think they should be equally or more emphasizing training for & running Sprints..

And I'm really appreciative for all the comments and enjoying the discussion.

Yacht, very few will disagree that running sprints has more direct application to baseball conditioning than distance running.  But, as many have suggested, this particular requirement is probably more about other things.  We don't know the coach but I can think of LOTS of reasons why a coach might do this.  We're just suggesting you (and son) don't get hung up on the direct correlation.  If the coach runs his program like other very successful coaches I know, there will be plenty of other activities that come up down the road that one could rightfully argue have little direct translation to physical baseball skills.  

BTW, your son can train for this requirement by doing 80-90% sprints and just a few occasional distance runs.  If the effort and consistency is there, this will more than prepare him for that 2 mile run.  That will satisfy both your and the coach' objectives.

PS - just in case, my "show up and do their thing" comment was a general statement, not steered toward you or son.

YachtRocker posted:

I absolutely do not think that the boys should just "show up and do their thing" 

But putting the only emphasis on the boys training for a qualifying 2 mile run versus training for sprints, (which constitute the majority of baseball running) seemed a little misguided to me. 

So for those who may think my post was because I feel this is being too hard on little "Yacht  Jr".. LOL

YES I think they should train & train hard, be pushed & pushed hard.

& YES I think their running 2 miles is not unreasonable..

BUT, I think they should be equally or more emphasizing training for & running Sprints..

And I'm really appreciative for all the comments and enjoying the discussion.

You can work on both.

What time does he need to run is the 2 miles?

In my son's junior college year, a timed 1 mile run was required.  All started together; midway through it was clear that several freshman were not going to make the time. One of the captains dropped back to push/pull/cajole the few who were struggling. Seconds later, the rest of the team - who were making time - dropped back and joined. They finished as a group, some physically pushing and pulling the freshman-  in triumph - now having demonstrated the first steps towards becoming  a TEAM. 

He reported that it was quite the team moment. (When he shared that story, it recalled some long service marches, where we finished together, the strong helping the less strong,  all the while creating trust, mutual reliance, and a team which would later function as one under far more serious conditions.)

Makes no sense, has nothing to do with baseball, (maybe cardio for pitchers?) hate to see the practices.

If a coach is old school he might have players running because it’s always been done. If the coach has a sense of consciousness he gets the result Goose  Jr’s coach got out of his players by having them run.

Good article on teamwork ...

“Some teams are tight like families. Other teams work more like allies. But all resilient teams share one thing: an ability to manage many interests while serving a purpose that is larger than the interests of any one person.“

https://www.businessinsider.co...seal-teamwork-2015-4

Pretty simple criteria to make the team. Find out what the "X" is - train to beat it by "X-30"

Boom you make the team. 

Don't over complicate HS baseball. 

I think making arbitrary demands is the sign of a great manager.  If a fat kid shows up for tryouts who throws 90 but isn't in very good shape, it makes all kinds of sense to tell him he can't play.  Ditto if the kid can hit the ball 400 feet to the opposite field against the wind.  Especially if that player were nursing an injury all winter and his training had to be limited. 

I'm all for coaches insisting players improve their cardio fitness and hit the weight room.  I'd absolutely get behind a requirement to complete X number of preseason workouts/runs.  No problem with posting performances publicly and having competitions for best times, greatest improvements, etc.  But making up a number as a cut-off that is unrelated to actual performance, effort, or attitude?  Yeah, the coach is the boss and a guy who wants to play may have to shut up and do it.  But that coach would lose some of my respect because he's trying to exert authority just to show he can.  The coach in the OP may have a pretty good middle distance relay team on opening day; if he has the best baseball team he could potentially field, that will be a happy accident.

A good thread from the TCU Strength and Conditioning Coach who I believe primarily works with the baseball team.  Not specific to a single 2 mile timed run, but distance training in general for baseball players.

https://twitter.com/zachdechan.../1163454885771091968

 https://www.zachdechant.com/co...ioning-and-baseball/

(In addition to whatever he'll do for throwing & hitting) for my kid's baseball off season running conditioning program this winter I had envisioned him doing a LOT of mixed sprint & legs training..  20's 30's 60's 90's etc. working on first moves & developing his fast twitch & top speed..  

Now, instead, to a great extent he will be on the treadmill trying to grind out a couple miles a couple times a week & maybe would still do sprint work once a week or so too? 

I just don't know how tell him to balance those 2 (sprinting days & 2 miles days) .. but do know ANY showcase or camp - or game situation - how fast he can run 30/60 seems what's ultimately going to be most important. 

YachtRocker posted:

(In addition to whatever he'll do for throwing & hitting) for my kid's baseball off season running conditioning program this winter I had envisioned him doing a LOT of mixed sprint & legs training..  20's 30's 60's 90's etc. working on first moves & developing his fast twitch & top speed..  

Now, instead, to a great extent he will be on the treadmill trying to grind out a couple miles a couple times a week & maybe would still do sprint work once a week or so too? 

I just don't know how tell him to balance those 2 (sprinting days & 2 miles days) .. but do know ANY showcase or camp - or game situation - how fast he can run 30/60 seems what's ultimately going to be most important. 

As I said, he can do 80-90% sprint/speed work and mix in an occasional distance run and he'll be just fine for his 2 mile event.  He doesn't really have to disrupt his program.

You seem to be just venting and not actually listening to the advice and many solid answers to the questions you have asked... which is fine.  Vent away.  I'm out.

Yachtrocker, I do not knew if this might be helpful. My daughter ran track and cross country, she now runs 1/2 and full marathons. I assumed to train for a marathon you would run 26+ miles. The most she ran was 20 miles and I think only once a week. So maybe your son could do his sprint work and maybe once a week run a mile+. I would have him talk to the track coach, tell her/him the situation and they might be able to give him a workout plan that would keep his speed training and also build for mid distance.

College team does a 300 meter workout. They run nine 300's. Need to complete the 300 in 55 seconds. Then rest for 2 minutes the first week. The rest drops 30 second each week. The last week the rest is 30 seconds. If they complete it in time it is 1.54 miles in 12.75 minutes. Less than half the team completed it on time last year.

cabbagedad posted:

You seem to be just venting and not actually listening to the advice and many solid answers to the questions you have asked... which is fine.  Vent away.  I'm out.

CabbageDad,  I certainly didn't mean to annoy or irritate you, (or others) - or be "venting" Apologies to all so offended..  Was just talking, & didn't realize once people have given good suggestions or opinion that I was supposed to just stop.  I'm learning. LOL

To me it seemed that there are others that participate & read these topics from various perspectives.. and as such look at these discussions as topics that might resonate with other people and their kids similar situations in baseball, not just being all about me and my kid and this particular situation.  

But again, my bad.   Thanks to all. 

Chico Escuela posted:

I think making arbitrary demands is the sign of a great manager.  If a fat kid shows up for tryouts who throws 90 but isn't in very good shape, it makes all kinds of sense to tell him he can't play.  Ditto if the kid can hit the ball 400 feet to the opposite field against the wind.  Especially if that player were nursing an injury all winter and his training had to be limited. 

I'm all for coaches insisting players improve their cardio fitness and hit the weight room.  I'd absolutely get behind a requirement to complete X number of preseason workouts/runs.  No problem with posting performances publicly and having competitions for best times, greatest improvements, etc.  But making up a number as a cut-off that is unrelated to actual performance, effort, or attitude?  Yeah, the coach is the boss and a guy who wants to play may have to shut up and do it.  But that coach would lose some of my respect because he's trying to exert authority just to show he can.  The coach in the OP may have a pretty good middle distance relay team on opening day; if he has the best baseball team he could potentially field, that will be a happy accident.

With respect, Chico, we know so little about this coach.  Do you really think we can make that definitive assumption?  The required time is "yet to be determined" and nearly four months away.  Is it really a bad thing to maybe get some of the kids to start thinking about conditioning in advance before they show up in the spring?  Maybe he knows he has some in his group that otherwise won't and he is looking for ways to motivate them to do so.  Maybe he feels like a reasonable and doable 2 mile time is more fair to those who don't have the foot speed to run a decent 40 or 60 time, no matter how much pre-season conditioning they do.  Maybe he is setting this up as being the "team bonding" opportunity, come spring, that others have hinted at...  etc., etc.  

Yeah, sure, there is also the possibility that you are right.  Maybe he is just old school and stuck in old ways.  But there are a whole lot of other possibilities.  The point most were making to help the OP is it doesn't matter.  As BOF states, find out what X is to make the team and shoot for X +. 

I'm with BOF.  Ditch the attitude, put in the effort, and run the 2 miles.  It's not that far and it's not that hard.  Most anyone can get it done if they try.  If they don't try that tells the coach an awful lot.

YachtRocker posted:

cabbagedad posted:

You seem to be just venting and not actually listening to the advice and many solid answers to the questions you have asked... which is fine.  Vent away.  I'm out.

CabbageDad,  I certainly didn't mean to annoy or irritate you, (or others) - or be "venting" Apologies to all so offended..  Was just talking, & didn't realize once people have given good suggestions or opinion that I was supposed to just stop.  I'm learning. LOL

To me it seemed that there are others that participate & read these topics from various perspectives.. and as such look at these discussions as topics that might resonate with other people and their kids similar situations in baseball, not just being all about me and my kid and this particular situation.  

But again, my bad.   Thanks to all. 

 

Yacht, I was serious when I said nothing wrong with venting here (I do it) and I wasn't suggesting that you just stop.  Heck, we all continue to learn, hopefully.  And I totally agree it is great to get lots of different perspectives.  It just seemed, based on subsequent posts, that you were ignoring many posts that suggested maybe a different perspective may be helpful to you and your son.  Solutions were offered and you didn't seem to hear.  I know my bias comes into play here and I sure ain't always right.  No worries.

cabbagedad posted:

Chico Escuela posted:

I think making arbitrary demands is the sign of a great manager.  If a fat kid shows up for tryouts who throws 90 but isn't in very good shape, it makes all kinds of sense to tell him he can't play.  Ditto if the kid can hit the ball 400 feet to the opposite field against the wind.  Especially if that player were nursing an injury all winter and his training had to be limited. 

I'm all for coaches insisting players improve their cardio fitness and hit the weight room.  I'd absolutely get behind a requirement to complete X number of preseason workouts/runs.  No problem with posting performances publicly and having competitions for best times, greatest improvements, etc.  But making up a number as a cut-off that is unrelated to actual performance, effort, or attitude?  Yeah, the coach is the boss and a guy who wants to play may have to shut up and do it.  But that coach would lose some of my respect because he's trying to exert authority just to show he can.  The coach in the OP may have a pretty good middle distance relay team on opening day; if he has the best baseball team he could potentially field, that will be a happy accident.

With respect, Chico, we know so little about this coach.  Do you really think we can make that definitive assumption?  The required time is "yet to be determined" and nearly four months away.  Is it really a bad thing to maybe get some of the kids to start thinking about conditioning in advance before they show up in the spring?  Maybe he knows he has some in his group that otherwise won't and he is looking for ways to motivate them to do so.  Maybe he feels like a reasonable and doable 2 mile time is more fair to those who don't have the foot speed to run a decent 40 or 60 time, no matter how much pre-season conditioning they do.  Maybe he is setting this up as being the "team bonding" opportunity, come spring, that others have hinted at...  etc., etc.  

Yeah, sure, there is also the possibility that you are right.  Maybe he is just old school and stuck in old ways.  But there are a whole lot of other possibilities.  The point most were making to help the OP is it doesn't matter.  As BOF states, find out what X is to make the team and shoot for X +. 

Absolutely true that I don't have enough information to draw any fair conclusion about how good this coach may be overall.  My comment is directed at this specific issue. 

Management by arbitrary cut-offs is often counter-productive, and there are other ways to get the result you are aiming for.  Maybe you have a kid who can mash and has a passable 60 time for a DH or corner guy, but is seriously out of shape.  He ought to get in shape--for the team's sake and his own.  But if he's putting in serious training time and still can't hit an arbitrary two-mile run time in February?  Telling him you will cut him if he fails to hit a particular time might motivate him.  Or might have the opposite effect--and make your team worse when the kid quits baseball.  

To set an arbitrary standard just for "motivation" seems lazy to me.  (My opinion as someone who never coached above Little League, but who has managed people in business settings and taught college and grad students.)  I think that comes down to an issue I have written about in prior threads: the fact we tolerate behavior from coaches that most businesses would frown on (or worse), and that business schools would say is less productive than using "old school" approaches.  

Anyhow, much respect Cabbage and not trying to pick a fight--JMO.  

With twenty years in the Army and with a great deal of experience with two mile runs I think it is safe to say any high school athlete should be able to run two miles in 16 minutes.  If a player is doing sprints as many suggest then turning that conditioning into a two mile run should not be a problem.  They will have developed the heart muscle to sufficiently handle the work load.  Assuming the sprinting is a legitimate work out where players are pushing themselves.   Don't discount overweight athletes with being out of shape from a cardio perspective.  I've seen numerous individuals that someone may think are out of shape simply blow away persons who appear to be in much better shape.  There is nothing too hard about what is being asked by the coach.  I did not pull the time standard from the thread, but if it is reasonable it just isn't a hard one to do.  

Chico Escuela posted:

cabbagedad posted:

.....the fact we tolerate behavior from coaches that most businesses would frown on (or worse), and that business schools would say is less productive than using "old school" approaches.  

Anyhow, ...

where it applies, totally agree 

I noticed Yacht joined in September. If he hasn’t heard the pitch it’s time for it ...

”Don't fret over what you can’t control. Focus on what you can control.”

Your son is being required to make the run. He can’t change it. You can’t change it. He has to run regardless of what anyone on this board thinks. What can be controlled is preparing for the run to be ready to run the best time possible. If there’s a concern he could get cut for not running fast enough stop complaining. Get out on the road and run.  

My son also played high school soccer. Summer sessions started every day (for two weeks) with a five mile run. They were required to finish in forty minutes. He didn’t bitch he was a goalie and didn’t need to run much. As soon as summer baseball ended he ran five miles every day.

 

If there’s a concern he could get cut for not running fast enough stop complaining.

I'm with BOF.  Ditch the attitude, put in the effort, and run the 2 miles. 

Got it!  thanks.