Running Up The Score

quote:

But ZERO points? What do you do about THAT? When does it become an even bigger joke and insult by not trying at all?

If you would have seen them shooting, you could understand how they may not score. They showed a shootaround on the news and those girls were shooting airballs and bouncing it off the backboard never hitting the rim from 7-8 feet away. Not good at all. And, just for the record, these were not diabled girls. They looked, sounded, and ran like normal kids. Maybe they have some learning disabilities, but physical ones.

The more you think about this game the more you read about it the more infuriating it becomes.

Bobblehead Doll, I usually don't call anyone out here, but you are dead wrong to think that being sportsmanlike and compassionate would be "more insulting" to a group of girls getting battered on a basketball court for 32 minutes. Think the outcome of this game was ever in doubt? No way. The Dallas team hasn't won in four years or so. IMO, the actions of the coach are unconscionable and the Covenant coach should be replaced immediately and not be allowed back in interscholastic athletics.

I notice that he's not returning calls...

Understanding and compassion are essentials if coaches are to teach the valuable lessons offered by athletics.

I've been lurking here for a while but this is my first post.

My son plays at a small school and I've seen blow-outs both ways. There's no excuse for running up the score but you don't have to lie down either...

We've been blown-out. We don't want the scoreboard turned off and we don't want the clock to run continuously. However, we would appreciate it if the other team didn't count out-loud the passes before taking a shot, play keep-away, or dance and cheer when your 15th man scores like they just won the final four. Remember, your fresh bench players are playing against our tired starters. (Like the team in the story, our girls team only has eight players too). It isn't necessary to press the whole game while you rotate all 15 kids in. Just play basic, half-court basketball. Show some class. It might be different next year. Thanks.

Think if I were refereeing that game, the Dallas Academy would have set a record for number of free throws shot. Surely they would have scored sooner or later. Also would have insisted the clock kept running once the score got rediculous. Would have been glad to deal with the head of officiating later, on that one.

TX I didn't say physical. I read they had learning disabilities which in BkTB can be just as bad or worse than physical.
Base you are entitled to your opinion and it is probably the most common one. However I have seen blowouts and most players do not want to be played down to. I saw a black team in Toronto that was a powerhouse. They played cat and mouse with a team they were much superior to. The less talented team gave it everything they had and I am suer they would be very upset if the other team started playing stupid. I was a little disappointed that they started to put on a show boat display that was intended to embarrass but they didn't run the score up nearly as high as they could have.
By the accounts I have heard they seemed ok with what happened.
Seems to me the coaches should have been more careful with the matchup.

I hold the coach)s) responsible---the score CAN be controlled
I coached youth basketball and routs abound at that level-we had a rule that all plyers must play at least so much time--in games like this my studs would come out regardless of how many minutes they would play---I might also play the last 4 on the bench with my top guard who did nothing but pass to the others

There are many ways to make it work and by all means no full court press---I am surprised that the refs did not step in and tell the coach to back down

Don't get me wrong, BobbleheadDoll. I think that coach should be fired as it's completely uncalled for. My only point was that the team wasn't physically or mentally disabled...didn't know if people understood that from the text of the article. I wondered until I saw them on TV.

I 'm not sure I would like to see him fired but he needs some training in empathy.
I 'm not sure what is the right way to slow a game down. I have seen this and it can be very insulting as well.

quote:

Originally posted by 08Dad:
"She praised the Covenant players but said spectators and an assistant coach were cheering wildly as their team edged closer to 100 points."

I'd be pumped if I dropped 100 points against a good team, but dropping 100 on a team that has no clue is just utterly classless. I would grimace every time my team went up by more than maybe 20.

They are WAY too into themselves.

As I have said before, my 3rd grader spent 3 years on an indoor s****r team that was PHENOMENAL. It wasn't a select team. It was just that there is a TON of talent in the grade (45 boys in the class and most of the top 25 played for us) and evidently not as much at other schools. We routinely beat teams 8-2 or 10-2. However we coaches and our parents knew to stop cheering (on the outside) after we went up by 2 or 3 goals.

It amazes me that some people don't just know this.

However, in my experience the responsibility comes down to the head coach because he sets the tone.

Again, this guy either got caught up in the moment or he's just a tool.

.
One of the reports (Mike and Mike on ESPN this am) said that the team got to 100 with about 3 minutes left then chose to stop scoring....

If that's true, it would indicate that the coach was willing to control the team and the score...but not until the team got to 100.

44
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quote:

Originally posted by TRhit:
I might also play the last 4 on the bench with my top guard who did nothing but pass to the others

There are many ways to make it work and by all means no full court press---I am surprised that the refs did not step in and tell the coach to back down

IMO it's not fair to kids to sit them if they're blowing someone out.

What I will do is play them out of position (e.g. C at PG in basketball or striker in goal in s****r). That way my guys are on the court and are playing and having fun, but we're not as competitive.

Of course, there is only so much you can do.

This year in s****r we went up 5-0 and I decided to flip the offensive and defensive lines. My 3 defenders then each proceeded to get a goal (2 their first ever including my daughter).

But at least the other coach knew that I had called off the dogs (I explicitly told him what I was doing).

YAYA

I look at it in a completely different light---these are the games where the kids who get minimal time get the chance to have a lot more playing time---I don't need my starters to play out of position--how does that help the team---I want my subs to get the benefit of the situation

quote:

Originally posted by TRhit:
I look at it in a completely different light---these are the games where the kids who get minimal time get the chance to have a lot more playing time---I don't need my starters to play out of position--how does that help the team---I want my subs to get the benefit of the situation

I'm talking grade school sports, so I don't have any bench players. Instead, everyone plays about the same (e.g. some 60 but all at least 40).

If I was at the HS level, I would certainly play my 2nd and 3rd stringers since they aren't going to play nearly as much normally.

Agreed, this is the time to get some backups some PT. Even in a blowout, your subs can get some game reps, and it may prove valuable down the road if a starter goes down or something along those lines.

I guess I'll jumb in,
When my son was 13 and playing baseball league, we were the best team in our the league. We had hooked up three other leagues for more experance and a chance for some players who hadn't played all stars to play against other teams. One league had never played outside of their own league. They had lost their first 6 games by no less than 15 runs and scored only 1 run total. After one of our league teams beat them 35 to 0, we talked to the coach from our league, I was one of the board members, and told him he showed bad judgement and told him he should have pulled his better players and he should not let the score run up like that again.
The following week our team played the same team, we talked to our players before the the game and told them we were going to play a game that other team could be competitive in and we sat our 4 best players and had others playing out of position. We ended up losing the game 6 to 5 and our parents were mad at us for not playing our best players (one of which was my son). The amazing thing about the whole game was the other coach came up to us after the game and started telling us how they kick our butts, gloating about the win and we weren't as good as we thought we were. Needless to say, their coach cancelled the next three games against us. We went on to win the rest of our games.
****ed if you do, ****ed if you don't. Somwtimes when you do the right thing it comes back to bite you!

Not the 1st time I have heard that story.I have seen teams that have a game in hand and blow it to a lesser team because they pulled their best players. That BkBB game should never have happened in the 1st place. Fortunately wining and losing is not the end of the world.

Reading all this I am reminded of the biggest blowout story involving one of my son's teams.

It was 7th grade basketball. We had a very decent school team, pretty good athletes. Of the 12 guys on our team, 4 will be playing D1 sports next year. So we weren't a bunch of schlubs.

We were playing a travelling team from California, Team Cal. We knew they were absolutely loaded. In pregame warm ups, four of their guys were slam dunking. One kid, Demetrius Walker was at the time the most hyped youth basketball player in the country. He was amazing in 7th grade - he looked about 20 years old.

Anyway, our kids did their best. Team Cal never let up. It was hard just to get the ball past half court. We lost 92 to 16, I think it was.

Our boys were actually proud. Not a one of them was bitter in the slightest. They were the only team to "hold" Team Cal under 100 points.

As a parent, it was kind of awe inspiring watching that team, and I didn't mind the fact that the score was so lopsided one bit. I know that our guys WANTED Team Cal to keep playing hard, because they wanted a field goal they made to actually mean something.

This, however, is a completely different scenario than the girls team in question here. For one, Team Cal was invited to these tournaments specifically to put on this type of show, and teams wanted to play them just for the experience. So it was kinda fun in its own way.

I haven't thought about this for a long time!

I think most competitive athletes feel that way.

You lost 6-5. You did not lose 100-00. You start your best and when the game is in hand you give others the opportunity to compete. When you are beating someone , 50-00 do you think they have a chance to come back? When your playing a baseball game you start your best and then you see the other team can not compete with you. Lets say your up 10-0 and your pitcher is dominating the opponent. Is it going to hurt you to put in the other posistion players and give them a chance? So what if you dont score again. It doesnt take a scholar to see the other team can not compete. These examples do not fit this scenario.

Anyone with half a brain can see that a team simply can not compete when you are shutting them out at halftime and you have 56 fn points. Pressing , running up the score? Cheering for 100 points? No one can justify that type of behavior. It makes no difference if the other team says or does not say they are embarrassed by this. You should be embarrassed by this. What have you taught your players? If they are real players they have already lost all the respect they might have had in their coach. I sure would have.

I have been up 10-0 and did not feel safe against the opponent we were playing. They were hitting the ball consistently and we were just making plays. I could tell that they were a quality opponent and they could get back in the game if we didnt keep the hammer down on them. I have also been up 5-0 and felt completely in control and knew the other team was incapable of mounting any type of comeback. The coach is a first class *** and should not be coaching.

This idea that you beat them as bad as you can and its up to them to take care of themselves is bush league imo. Show some respect for the game and yourself. Win with class. What goes around comes around. jmho

Agree with you 100% Coach May. One other thing I heard on this tonight...they have not won a game in 4 years. So clearly the winning coach knew it was going to be ugly going in...it didn't just "happen" and "get out of control".

A couple of years ago I coached a basketball game with only five players. Five were out with the flu. We were missing our three top scorers. The other team had a kid who will play major college basketball. They were undefeated. We were a good team when we had all our players.

Personally I thought it was good strategy for the opposing team to trap full court and wear us down. But with 50-14 score at the half, the team came out trapping in the second half. The stud never came out of the game. That's too much. As one of the refs walked by the coach on the sideline, he told him if he breathed wrong he would love the honor of t'ing him up twice and tossing him out of the gym for poor sportsmanship.

The stud's dad is a former NBA coach. I heard he called the coach and told him if he ever pulled that kind of a stunt again he'd pull his kid from the team. He was ticked at the lack of ethics. He was also concerned an opposing player would get ticked and take a cheapshot at his kid.

I had already told my players the coach is a horse's behind and don't do any paybacks on the players. I peeled off the good game line at the last player. It would not have been positive if the coach said anything.

quote:

I was once at a HS game where my sons HS was playing another in the area but a lower divison. My son didn't play HS basketball but we went to a lot of games for fun and to support the school. there was a menataly challenged boy on the opposing team. Once it was a blow out,both coaches had must of made an agreement. The last three minutes of the game this kid came in. The crown went wild as everyone didn't really guard him and let him try and make shots. After about ten attempts he finally made a three pointer. The crowd went nuts, players for both teams were clapping and high fiving him. One of the best moments I have seen in my experience in sports.

Do you remember Jason McElwain?

As you can tell I am a little sensitive about these kind of things. When my oldest was in HS he played football and later played in college. He was a tough hard nosed football player. A true competitor and he was very good. If he was down 50 or up 50 you would never know it by watching the tape. He was everything you looked for in a player. The whole time he was in HS his team won a whopping 5 games. They were 5-39. Some of the L's were embarrassing. One game in particular they were trailing 78-0 with a few seconds left. The opposing team had just scored by faking a field goal. Then they faked the extra point and attempted to score a two point conversion to get to 80. The HC of this team was a guy being sought after by several high profile HS programs in the state. He had several years of outstanding teams in a row and was the "Hot" coach on the market so to speak. I lost all respect for him right then and there. Everything I thought about him went out the window.

Well he landed that "Top" job a couple of years later. A program that has had many years of success. He recently was let go because he was not getting the job done to their standards. I wonder if Kharma had anything to do with it? The point is respect the game and those that play it. You never gain respect when you show no respect. In fact you do the exact opposite. You lose it. I would rather lose any day of the week and have the respect of my opponent. Than win in a way that would cause others to lose respect for me and my team.

I just did a little research and Convenant beat a team 77-27 just one week after their 100-0 debacle. This coach obviously doesn't get it. He needs to go.

I think these guys must have gone to the Covenant school of basketball too.

Philosophical questions / discussion

I'm watching the Duke / Maryland basketball game on ESPN and Duke is up 40 points with 7ish minutes left. Duke still has their starters and key subs in, shooting threes and all that. Couple of days ago one of Maryland's best players talked some trash about Duke.

I don't want this to become a Duke bashing discussion either.

1. How much is enough to call off the dogs?
2. What level (youth, HS, college, pro) do you call off the dogs ASAP?
3. If players / coaches from the other team talk trash is it ok to add a little more?
4. If so how much extra is enough?

I think what we will find out with this is that this isn't a clear cut case of what is right and wrong. Yes the 100 - 0 is clear cut but I'm not talking about this game. This is going to show that Coach A thinks he is being classy and doing the right thing while Coach B will think it's bushleague and wrong.

Couldn't agree more, Coach May!

The difference to me is , it is clear when a team "Can not compete" vs a team is just getting it handed to them that day. This is an obvious case of a team not being capable of competing. A coach can see this. In these types of cases it falls on your shoulders as a coach to quite simply show some class. When a team is capable of competing but they are just having a poor game and you are having a great game its going to get out of hand. There are ways to continue to compete and compete hard without showing up your opponent.

In baseball you stop stealing , you empty the bench , you dont bunt etc etc. In football you stop throwing , you stop with the trick plays , you empty the bench. In basketball you STOP pressing , you RUN some clock , you empty the bench.

quote:

The difference to me is, it is clear when a team "Can not compete" vs a team is just getting it handed to them that day. This is an obvious case of a team not being capable of competing.

I was about to post the same thing. I'll just post I agree.

Without seeing the actual game how can anyone say they were running it up? What was the coach on the winning team supposed to do, have his players sit down and stop playing? If the other team was this bad or had special needs then it should have never been playing in a varsity game. The game is 32 minutes long for a reason, play the entire game and play hard!
I cannot stand it when someone whines about the other team running up the score. There are limits set on games, time limits, mercy rules etc. Teach your kids to play better and quit whining!

Hey Lance,
Is your other name Troll 16?

Yeah, sure Lance. A girl's team scores three points a minute and we have to see the game to know whether they were running it up.

quote:

Originally posted by Lance16:
Without seeing the actual game how can anyone say they were running it up? What was the coach on the winning team supposed to do, have his players sit down and stop playing? If the other team was this bad or had special needs then it should have never been playing in a varsity game. The game is 32 minutes long for a reason, play the entire game and play hard!
I cannot stand it when someone whines about the other team running up the score. There are limits set on games, time limits, mercy rules etc. Teach your kids to play better and quit whining!

It was reported the team full court trapped most of the game and the game was basically a lay up drill after the steal.

I've coached a lot of basketball. My teams trap and run the court. At 20-0 you back your defense inside the arc. On offense you pass at least four times until someone takes an open outside shot. With the defense inside the arc and the offense passing a lot, each team should get one possession per minute. Therefore they shouldn't have scored more the 64 if they hit every shot. The other team would have hit at least 3-4 threes. Most coaches know the opposition in advance. This would have been a good time to start five players who never start.

Sometimes in youth through high school ball there are some bad matchups that are out of both coach's control. I hope you aren't suggesting the school give up basketball. It's an activity, not life and death.

This isn't the first time the coach has run it up. If this coach thinks he's so good he should go coach a major high school program instead of a small division private school classification.

RMJ
So this is how you got your 1942 posts....

More to read in regards to the blowout in the Dallas Morning News....

http://www.dallasnews.com/sharedcontent/dws/dn/latestne...senough.430138a.html

The idiot just doesn't get it.

Covenant coach disagrees with apology to Dallas Academy over 100-0 victory

“In response to the statement posted on The Covenant School Website, I do not agree with the apology or the notion that the Covenant School girls basketball team should feel embarrassed or ashamed,” Micah Grimes wrote in an email that was sent to The Dallas Morning News. “We played the game as it was meant to be played. My values and my beliefs would not allow me to run up the score on any opponent, and it will not allow me to apologize for a wide-margin victory when my girls played with honor and integrity.”

I'll bet since the coach went public with his lack of regret, there are private discussions in the background over his firing.

You got it RJM, he's gone.

http://www.dallasnews.com/sharedcontent/dws/dn/latestne...enantnu.2781526.html

Justice.

Those players learned a more valuable life lesson from their stubborn coach's actions than he ever could have taught them on the court.

He could have been fired for:

A) running up the score
B) publicly disagreeing (showing up) with his employer
C) both of the above

I'm guessing C. I think he would have got off with a reprimand until he went public with his disagreement. He's publicly disagreeing with the values of the institution. He's not on board with the mission statement.