Safety Rules Will Be The Death Of Us All

Solid!

Perhaps uniformed would be a nice way to describe the opinions so far. .

Pitch counts are not the result of lawyers. They are the result of doctors. Check  Dr. Andrews and ASMI for a start.

For the helmets on base coaches, perhaps reading Heart of the Game about the life, and death, of Mike Coolbaugh...and his wife and surviving children will prompt anyone reading this thread to wonder if "solid" is where they align. Stupid, irrelevant or reactionary...I guess it is all relative.

How about we just take off the helmets of batters and catchers too and play like the good old days!!!

There are probably baseball rules which need to be scrutinized. Even more there are rules which involve subjective interpretations which don't make sense.

To use ASMI data and the life of Mike Coolbaugh to "attempt" to argue the
"safety rules will be the death of us all " certainly ignores the fact that  having one(a helmet)  could have impacted  the death of Mike Coolbaugh and had him hugging his wife and family tomorrow and his still being "one of us all."

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LL doesn't allow coaches to warm up pitchers to get players involved in the game. Where it's a problem is at the preteen level. I had pitchers who had to lob the ball to the kid warming him up (due to lack of ability to catch a hard thrower) while the catcher got the equipment on.

 

Clearing the field for lightning is a good idea. Most LL fields have lightning indicators. There's even a weather app modified specifically for LL with a lightning indicator. A district administrator showed it to me. But the field can be cleared calmly. There's no need for panic. 

I am going to assume this is a troll because no one can be this stupid and be able to live day to day in this world. Well done on the trolling!

Oldskool2,

Unfortunately if you check the Illinois forum you willfind various posts by the subject in question and see it's not a trolling issue and more an intelligence issue,lol.

Wait, wait, wait. This ISN'T a troll? This is a serious post?

 

Pitch counts and protective helmets are a bad thing? What?

 

This has to be a joke.

 

JH,

If you see some of his other posts in the Illinois forum you will see he's probably serious.

I think there is some legitimacy in this but I think it's when it goes to the end of redundancy.  For example in the state of NC I have to have a concussion meeting with all players, parents and coaches before the start of play because it's a state law.  I am to inform them of what a concussion is, what to look for and the steps that are to be taken in case a concussion happens.  I totally agree with this and think it's a great idea.  This is a yearly thing we do so it will be fresh in our people's minds - especially our coaches.

 

So what does the state do - they now make it mandatory for our coaches to take a course on the NFHS website about concussions.  This is redundant because what's on that NFHS course is what we cover in the meeting each year.  So what's the point of making our people do this?  

 

Another area is that the people who put these rules into place don't think them all the way through.  State of NC said that for football we must have a certified (ATC) athletic trainer at each practice and game.  That's brilliant and I completely agree this is a wonderful idea.  Except these people are highly educated and their degree warrants they get paid a pretty good amount yet the people who passed this law didn't provide us the money to pay these people what their worth.  They are to give up 5 days of the week from 3ish to 6ish and until around 10:30 - 11:00 on a Friday night (later if it's an away game) for a $3000 supplement.  Well the crazy thing is these people typically have jobs with doctor offices and do you think a doctor is willing to allow his people to leave his practice for this "other" job?  There is a local doctor who tries to allow his people to come out and do this on his pay BUT they sometimes get tied up with their job they can't make it out to practice.  The law says if the trainer isn't there then you can't practice.  So some of the schools around us get nailed with this once or twice a month - how well do you think that sets with football coaches?

 

So once the state realized they painted themselves into a corner they started allowing us to have first responders.  People who go through a week long course on basic first aid and these people are usually on our staff in some capacity.  OK good recovery but these people have to go to this week long class EACH year but yet they don't get paid the $3000 as a trainer - they get less.  So these people start realizing how much time they put in for very little money they don't do it anymore.  Now I'm trying to find someone to do it again.

 

Don't get me wrong I'm all in favor of safety and protecting our people but what's the point in doing something twice????  What's the point in forcing us to hire someone of a certain caliber but not give us the money to do it????

 

Stuff like this is where we're going wrong - people sit around and think of things to "protect" people just so they can say "hey look at all the things we are doing to protect you".

 

 

~Post Deleted~

I know those following this thread got it. If you'd like to discuss my feelings on this topic via PM, feel free. I don't wish to engage in such a discussion further here.

 

Baseball's general resistance to change is the biggest reason why the NFL is the dominant professional sports league in North America. 

 

Exhibit A - Ray Chapman dies at home plate after getting hit in the head with a pitch in 1920 and it takes about 40 years for batting helmets to become mandatory.  It took Tony Conigliaro going down to make ear flaps mandatory in the 1970's more than 50 years after Chapman.  How many players have been able to get up from a hit in the head uninjured in the last 35+ years because of batting helmets.  Biggest no brainer in the game short of the catchers and umpire equipment.

 

I'd agree the risk to coaches particularly in youth ball is probably limited so I could be persuaded that could be an optional thing.  On the other hand pitchers heads being protected especially at HS and below is a idea that is overdue.

 

Now if you want to talk about intrusiveness of the government/management/legal types you can find better examples than baseball.  Ever make a real estate deal?  Holy Smokes that's some paperwork there.

 

coach2709: welcome to the wonderful world of unfunded mandates. I believe if you look around a little more you will find the government has created lots of laws that cost "something" more than what was considered when the law was considered and debated... While some find these types of laws unnecessary or common sense, there usually is someone, somewhere that fought hard to make sure that someone else didn't have to go through the same pain they did because someone didn't find it important enough to take certain precautions... One only need to look to the current situation in pro football regarding concussion lawsuits to find perfect examples of why such things need to be on the books for players that *aren't* being paid to play the game...  Hard to believe after a few years of this law being on the book that the school system hasn't worked into their budget the cost to cover this.  They certainly know how do so for less frivolous things.

 

As for safety rules in general - I'll agree there are some that are just downright strange and irrational (cannot have a coach warm up a pitcher and not playing pepper), but the cost of a helmet for a base coach far outweighs the cost of dealing with the consequences of being hit. If you've ever coached 1B you know there are times (with runners on 1st/2nd) when you're not fully paying attention to the pitch and that ball comes pretty fast off the bat... 

 

With regard to what some consider overly cautious and low pitch count numbers - well they are there because someone decided it was more important to win a game by throwing some kid 200 pitches, about half curves, and then trotting him back out there 2 days later to try and close a game allowing him to go another 50 or so. Just because you have "a" stud pitcher doesn't necessarily mean you have a "better team". It's a lot cheaper to periodically pay for massages because my sons arm is sore after throwing his allotted 80-110 than it is to pay for TJ surgery and months of rehab.

 

If lightning can split an innocent tree in half, what would it do a player holding a metal bat?  Just remember - don't yell at the umpire for enforcing this one, unless you're willing to give him your house and support after some lawyer takes his because he "decided" not to enforce that rule and someone got hurt...

No one is forced to play LL and follow their rules, which r there for a reason. Find something else.

many many people have, the growth of LL is not in the US. Full travel and Ripken are making a mark and it will only grow. In our area the best team and the prorams are not playing LL anymore.

Years ago I was the safety director for our local Little League.  I didn't agree with all the rules, but in general I was impressed by how well Williamsport had resisted knee-jerk reactions to low probability events and how most of their rules were reasonable risk management decisions based on lots of injury data, which they collect very meticuously. 

 

I agree with BiggerPapi that the MANNER of enforcement is often comical and counterproductive. 

By the way, the two most common causes of injury in our LL for the half decade or so of data I had access to were:

 

--Pre- and post-game warmups and horseplay.

--Players injured by balls thrown or batted by adult coaches in practice or warm-ups.

 

Could be why LL has so many rules about what happens when the ball isn't live.

 

So stopping a game for lightning is a bad idea????   Please explain that to me? 

papi, you probably loved Lawn Darts and Clackers.

I LOVED those.  Clackers could break your arm in a heartbeat!!  And lawn darts were like weapons - but we played the heck out of them and they were a lot of fun.  

And I agree with biggerpapi in principle, although a couple examples might be a little over the top.  How many base coaches have been severely injured or killed by a batted ball?  Not many, but they are forced to wear the helmet anyway.  It's not the end of the world, but there are things out there that have a much higher death/injury rate that are left alone.  Car wrecks have caused more deaths and injuries than probably all other forms of death/injury combined, yet people are still allowed to drive.  Yes, it's safer than it used to be, but it is still the leading cause of death/injury.  

 

Any one incident is a tragic thing, but there is no way to make everything safe.  There is no way to regulate out the chance of getting hurt.  Yet, that is what we try to do as a society.  People need to use some common sense.  Do you really need to inform people that coffee is hot?  Or put on a bottle of shampoo that you're not supposed to drink it?  Because if you don't have the warning on there, someone will sue you for not telling them that?  Papi's principle is sound.

I think we called them click-clacks.  They were basically two pool balls attached by a string with a loop in the middle to hold onto.  The object was to get them to pendulum and hit each other over your hand, then under your hand.  Try to get them going as fast as you could.  Hope that explains it.

 

Link to them on Wikipedia - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Clackers

Clackers were awesome!
They were two heavy solid plastic (polyurethane?) balls at each end of a string.
They were intended to be used as a toy that made a clacking sound when you perfected the skill of holding a gizmo at the middle of the string and banging the balls rapidly together. 
But we used them primarily as an aboriginal bolo throwing weapon to entangle and bring down large game--such as 5th graders.

3 million youth boxers would say otherwise

Diagnosing and treating players with concussions equals "freaking out"?    I disagree.  Strongly.

 

As for MMA, fun to watch but with the rapid growth of the sport no doubt dementia and  class action suits will be along before you know it.

I think you have that backwards. Companies put the warnings on so if they do something wrong they can just argue they put the warnings on so they aren't held accountable by the courts.

This is a completely different discussion. The safety rules are mostly the same across the board in youth baseball. Even college ball has lightning rules and base coaches wear helmets.

It's what occurs when someone who has never had an ounce of power acquires some. This behavior is prevalent with youth sports, PTAs and home owners associations.

Do you really need to inform people that coffee is hot? 

 

If the company serving the coffee serves it so hot over seven hundred customers required medical treatment at a hospital for burns, yes. Imagine how many more got burned but didn't require medical attention at a hospital. That's a safety hazard requiring a warning. When I buy McDonald's coffee in the morning through the drive through it takes fifteen minutes for it to be cool enough to drink as hot coffee.

You're entitled to your opinion of course, but I value the medical opinion of Dr. James Andrews et al, who helped develop LL pitch count rules, more than I value yours.

 

In their medical opinion, Big League age players (16-18) can throw 105 pitches per day, and after that they should rest 4 days.  Yes, that makes it difficult to win a tournament without  deep pitching staff, but calling  the rule stupid is, well, pretty dumb.  Compare that to travel, where I've seen 14yo pitchers throw 100 on Saturday and come back for another 125+ on Sunday, all within the rules.  IMHO that's child abuse.  USSSA etc should move toward LL rules and travel coaches should stop abusing young arms in pursuit of the almighty two dollar trophy.

 

BTW maybe it's different in your neck of the woods, but in every neck I've frequented, LL Big League baseball is about as relevant as three-legged racing. It's only played by teens who didn't make their HS baseball teams.

 

Oh, and just curious:  when you go to a professional baseball game, or a HS baseball game, do the coaches  typically go on the field to warm up the pitcher?  Next time I see that it will be the first.

Some warnings seen absurd. But while others may seem absurd there are some real stupid people in the world. I imagine most people here have the common sense not to use the top of a step ladder as a step. But there are people not smart enough. The warning gets the ladder manufacturer off the hook.

That's my point.  Companies are penalized for people not using common sense.  Do you really think that people that are that stupid and lack that much common sense actually read the labels?  It does no good other than to protect the companies from liability that they never should be subjected to in the first place.

 

That is my point exactly.  No label, you get sued.  Some things should be common sense enough where that is not necessary.  "You can't fix stupid"

That's not really my point. Companies try to use the label as a get out of jail free card in courts. Plus the label/warning stops people with no money or who are stupid from suing them for legit complaints.

Do you really think drinking shampoo or drinking Draino and then someone suing the company because it hurt them is a legit complaint?  The warning is not there to stop legitimate lawsuits from being filed.  The warning is there to stop stupid lawsuits from being filed - or stop them from being successful.  It's not a get out of jail free card.  It's a protection from stupid people filing stupid lawsuits that have no merit, because they failed to use common sense.

 

WAY too many people do stupid things and then try to blame someone else for what they did, just to try to get money out of them.  It is ridiculous what we as a society have had to do to protect ourselves against money grabbing idiots.  Millions and millions of dollars spent attempting to defend lawsuits from people who did not use any common sense whatsoever and try to blame corporations or other people for their stupidity.  Come on -  it's shampoo.  Of course it's not meant to be drunk.  Why should a company have to tell you that just so they don't get sued.

You made several indefensible statements and you're not going to stick around to defend them? 

 

As a wise man recently said, "Man up and deal with it. "

Fixed.

It can be, yes. Just like a lot of things, it depends on the specifics.

Why can't kids in LL chew gum? Always wondered about that one!

you touch on a good one, the coaches helmets - really the coach needs one to be safe but the field umps don't? - So i have to assume the coaches either don't pay attention or maybe they aren't as nimble as all of the youthful umpires we have. LOL good stuff.

My son graduated from college this spring and for a while was coaching first base for his old college summer league team til he got an offer to continue playing elsewhere.  I was very happy to see him wearing a helmet out there.  Some rules make sense, some don't or aren't applied properly (and I think that's the biggest problem).

Here's the thing I have a general problem with.  One guy gets hit in the head with a batted ball.  It's all over the news, certainly everyone in the baseball community knows about it.  Everyone now knows that there is a danger of getting hit in the head with a baseball if you are coaching 1st or 3rd base, right?  Why do we need a law or a rule to protect us from ourselves?  Why can't we make our own decisions as adults who know the risks?  Why do we need someone else to make us take precautions?  What ever happened to being informed and making a decision, as an adult, to take the risk or not take the risk?  I think I am completely capable of deciding whether or not I want to wear a helmet as a first base coach.  We are treated like children who do not have enough life experience or sense to make our own decisions.

 

It certainly is getting old.  I don't need other people or the government to protect me from my own decisions.