What is scapula loading?
Why is scapula loading important?
How do you do it correctly?
CV
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What is scapula loading?
An over rated word that tries to describe what happens with upper body mechanics in a baseball swing
Why is scapula loading important?
Its not as a term important when to teach hitting to kids. When you throw a ball your hands is going back as your hips rotating open. He belly gets stretched and you throw harder. The same is true for hitting. The problem is the pitcher is not afraid of getting hit by a pitch and his mechanism works. Batters freeze their natural upper body move when their eyes pick up a danger situation developing. So when you tell a kid to take the bat back while he strides he will not do it properly most of the time. SO....scap loading ...really is about rotating the upper body around the spinal axis without counter-rotating the whole body. The problem is the "how to falls short"
How do you do it correctly? depends on the kid. Lh batters that throw RH have better arm hand action IMO because the dominant hand leads and they get hit less growing up as a LH hitter
RH/RH have more problems. Some kids put the bat in the 45 slot and rotate the shoulders find but many do not.
To feel scap load put the bat tipping to the pitcher in front of the helmet with the top hand pointing down and a high rear elbow then just hit. WHen your rght forarm points down as you stride to hit then your rear elbow will internally rotate and you bat will flatten to get on plane and you have the SAME mechanism as pitching going. YOu can hit well from this position if you start early and get in time with the pitcher. See image and notice two things..bat position and then rear shoulder action. The bat position causes the later and makes it easier to teach than teling them to load the scap.... If Guerrero was playing 2B and had just crossed the bag taking a flip from the SS to turn a double play then top hand/ rear shoulder action would be identical to his top hand bat action/ rear shoulder action batting. We make this too hard...the mechanism is already in these kids URL=http://www.youthbaseballcoaching.com/mpg/Guerrero01.mpeg]http://www.youthbaseballcoaching.com/mpg/Guerrero01.mpeg[/URL]
An over rated word that tries to describe what happens with upper body mechanics in a baseball swing
Why is scapula loading important?
Its not as a term important when to teach hitting to kids. When you throw a ball your hands is going back as your hips rotating open. He belly gets stretched and you throw harder. The same is true for hitting. The problem is the pitcher is not afraid of getting hit by a pitch and his mechanism works. Batters freeze their natural upper body move when their eyes pick up a danger situation developing. So when you tell a kid to take the bat back while he strides he will not do it properly most of the time. SO....scap loading ...really is about rotating the upper body around the spinal axis without counter-rotating the whole body. The problem is the "how to falls short"
How do you do it correctly? depends on the kid. Lh batters that throw RH have better arm hand action IMO because the dominant hand leads and they get hit less growing up as a LH hitter
RH/RH have more problems. Some kids put the bat in the 45 slot and rotate the shoulders find but many do not.
To feel scap load put the bat tipping to the pitcher in front of the helmet with the top hand pointing down and a high rear elbow then just hit. WHen your rght forarm points down as you stride to hit then your rear elbow will internally rotate and you bat will flatten to get on plane and you have the SAME mechanism as pitching going. YOu can hit well from this position if you start early and get in time with the pitcher. See image and notice two things..bat position and then rear shoulder action. The bat position causes the later and makes it easier to teach than teling them to load the scap.... If Guerrero was playing 2B and had just crossed the bag taking a flip from the SS to turn a double play then top hand/ rear shoulder action would be identical to his top hand bat action/ rear shoulder action batting. We make this too hard...the mechanism is already in these kids URL=http://www.youthbaseballcoaching.com/mpg/Guerrero01.mpeg]http://www.youthbaseballcoaching.com/mpg/Guerrero01.mpeg[/URL]
Swingbuster,
You have a private message.
CV
You have a private message.
CV
can't get// it email it to donnybstr@aol.com
on it's way
CV
CV
Reply for Sandman
They feel silly with the bat tipping that far at first. Do it as a drill so they do not get defensive and rebellious at first. Just start with the bat here is all I say and I always get a weird roll the eyes look. Amazingly when they swing they DO NOT feel anything bad.
What I see then is the bat path that gets the bat on plane, allows the hips a head start, and most importantly the CHP with the hands VERY close to the shoulder at launch and the knob going to the oppo box. The hip and shoulder turn directs it quickly to appear to be going to the pitcher but originally it is not and that's what constitutes a CHP. It is the 'ball on a rope " principle of angular acceleration that is expoentially faster and allows the hands to be flat and in the zone about twice as long. The hands stay flat through the zone and oppo power is effortless and only require that you wait longer and rip it
Watch Glaus start in the 45 slot go to 90 and back to 45 at launch
.
http://www.youthbaseballcoaching.com/mpg/Glauss01.mpeg
Why does he do that? Because he wants the bat barrel to get in the zone square to the pitch
They feel silly with the bat tipping that far at first. Do it as a drill so they do not get defensive and rebellious at first. Just start with the bat here is all I say and I always get a weird roll the eyes look. Amazingly when they swing they DO NOT feel anything bad.
What I see then is the bat path that gets the bat on plane, allows the hips a head start, and most importantly the CHP with the hands VERY close to the shoulder at launch and the knob going to the oppo box. The hip and shoulder turn directs it quickly to appear to be going to the pitcher but originally it is not and that's what constitutes a CHP. It is the 'ball on a rope " principle of angular acceleration that is expoentially faster and allows the hands to be flat and in the zone about twice as long. The hands stay flat through the zone and oppo power is effortless and only require that you wait longer and rip it
Watch Glaus start in the 45 slot go to 90 and back to 45 at launch
.
http://www.youthbaseballcoaching.com/mpg/Glauss01.mpeg
Why does he do that? Because he wants the bat barrel to get in the zone square to the pitch
The Glaus clips are quite good. He just draws his right elbow back towards the 3rd base dugout and he is loaded.I don't think you need to feel like you are tipping the bat, as when you you draw the elbow back it will happen. I think Jack talked about hiding your hands, and Glaus does this by drawing the elbow back. It gets the hitter in a loaded position and one in which he feels powerful.
When you look at these clips, you will notice that at the beginning, you can't see Glaus' elbow, but as he loads, you can see it appear behind his back.
When you look at these clips, you will notice that at the beginning, you can't see Glaus' elbow, but as he loads, you can see it appear behind his back.
Swingbuster,
Does keeping the bat infront of the helmet eliminate the effects of wrapping the bat when it goes that far behind the head? Also, you are talking about/showing some pretty strong men doing this. Are young kids strong enough to do this? I'm trying to get a handle on rotational hitting, but I'm an Old Dog. You however, have explained Rotational hitting the most clearly of anyone I have read. Almost to a point of, if a hitter does this one thing he will have to swing rotationally. Am I reading that correctly?
Does keeping the bat infront of the helmet eliminate the effects of wrapping the bat when it goes that far behind the head? Also, you are talking about/showing some pretty strong men doing this. Are young kids strong enough to do this? I'm trying to get a handle on rotational hitting, but I'm an Old Dog. You however, have explained Rotational hitting the most clearly of anyone I have read. Almost to a point of, if a hitter does this one thing he will have to swing rotationally. Am I reading that correctly?
Scout...why does he go from the 45 slot to vertical and back? Why doesn't he just load back into the 45 slot deeper?
Letter from Jack...
>>> Dear Jack,
This is a personal note. I tried to create the high level swing without arm and hand action because it was simple. If you throw right and bat right it cannot be done IMO because your hands stay too far from the shoulder tip to get the all important CHP. THT and Pre-launch torque work and do exist. They are the foundation of the high level swing.
You cannot rotate unless your top half creates the correct resistance. You lost me once at the top hand pulling back. I cannot feel that consciencely but none the less using your methods my son is better than ever. The cue top hand working around the bottom I do feel.
I worked with a kid that was barring out badly today. I put him in the Pujols position and he was fixed in 5 minutes. Prelaunch torque can be a cure all for bad arm action.
At the ABCA in Nashville a coach said..." come across the bag from second and turn this double play for me and stop when I say stop". I did and when I stopped my top hand was right where Pujols hits from as I was striding to throw.....enough said for me.
With much appreciation ,
Donny Buster <<<
Hi Donny
Thank you for the kind words. I am glad your son is progressing in the rotational program as well. It is good to hear emphasizing pre-launch torque helped your student “create the correct resistance.”
Most batters have ample hip and shoulder rotation during the swing. However, only a few have the transfer mechanics to keep the bat-head accelerating in sync with that body rotation. If the top-hand does not “create the correct resistance” (pulling back on the handle with the fingers), the bat-head’s inertia will cause it to lag farther and farther behind shoulder rotation.
As the shoulders start to rotate, most hitters have the tendency to push forward with the palm of the top-hand. Pushing the top-hand forward on the handle does not cause the hat-head to accelerate rearward in sync with shoulder rotation. The batter winds up with the shoulders fully rotated, but the bat is lagging back 40 to 90 degrees from contact.
The first thing I look for while doing a video analysis of a student’s swing is to see if the bat was brought to contact as shoulder rotation was depleted. This tells me how efficient their transfer mechanics are.
Best regards,
Jack Mankin
I don't think Jack would mind me sharing that personal note. Prelaunch torque is cocking the hands in front of the helmet or over the helmet.
The Glaus move works his bottom hand under the top as he strides, this makes his real elbow internally rotate. The rear elbow is at the highest level just before the load /unload cycles overlap(SHAWN)> This is the point where Scout says about the elbow appears behind the hitter.
By now the front side base has formed and the hips are ahead of the shoulders. The bat flattens and the top hand works around the bottom ( what Jack terms the top hand pulling to the catcher)I personally do not get that sensative or feel the need to do that ...it just happens.
You cannot connect turning hips to a shoulder/hand path if the hand path is not circular. Thats where knob to the ball falls off the wagoon. A linear hand path and a circular hip path won't link.
Just put the bat there and hit. A hitting device that really proves it is the BatAction machine( I have no financial interest). Hit a ball regular and then hit one with prelaunch torque and THT and see and feel what happens.
Letter from Jack...
>>> Dear Jack,
This is a personal note. I tried to create the high level swing without arm and hand action because it was simple. If you throw right and bat right it cannot be done IMO because your hands stay too far from the shoulder tip to get the all important CHP. THT and Pre-launch torque work and do exist. They are the foundation of the high level swing.
You cannot rotate unless your top half creates the correct resistance. You lost me once at the top hand pulling back. I cannot feel that consciencely but none the less using your methods my son is better than ever. The cue top hand working around the bottom I do feel.
I worked with a kid that was barring out badly today. I put him in the Pujols position and he was fixed in 5 minutes. Prelaunch torque can be a cure all for bad arm action.
At the ABCA in Nashville a coach said..." come across the bag from second and turn this double play for me and stop when I say stop". I did and when I stopped my top hand was right where Pujols hits from as I was striding to throw.....enough said for me.
With much appreciation ,
Donny Buster <<<
Hi Donny
Thank you for the kind words. I am glad your son is progressing in the rotational program as well. It is good to hear emphasizing pre-launch torque helped your student “create the correct resistance.”
Most batters have ample hip and shoulder rotation during the swing. However, only a few have the transfer mechanics to keep the bat-head accelerating in sync with that body rotation. If the top-hand does not “create the correct resistance” (pulling back on the handle with the fingers), the bat-head’s inertia will cause it to lag farther and farther behind shoulder rotation.
As the shoulders start to rotate, most hitters have the tendency to push forward with the palm of the top-hand. Pushing the top-hand forward on the handle does not cause the hat-head to accelerate rearward in sync with shoulder rotation. The batter winds up with the shoulders fully rotated, but the bat is lagging back 40 to 90 degrees from contact.
The first thing I look for while doing a video analysis of a student’s swing is to see if the bat was brought to contact as shoulder rotation was depleted. This tells me how efficient their transfer mechanics are.
Best regards,
Jack Mankin
I don't think Jack would mind me sharing that personal note. Prelaunch torque is cocking the hands in front of the helmet or over the helmet.
The Glaus move works his bottom hand under the top as he strides, this makes his real elbow internally rotate. The rear elbow is at the highest level just before the load /unload cycles overlap(SHAWN)> This is the point where Scout says about the elbow appears behind the hitter.
By now the front side base has formed and the hips are ahead of the shoulders. The bat flattens and the top hand works around the bottom ( what Jack terms the top hand pulling to the catcher)I personally do not get that sensative or feel the need to do that ...it just happens.
You cannot connect turning hips to a shoulder/hand path if the hand path is not circular. Thats where knob to the ball falls off the wagoon. A linear hand path and a circular hip path won't link.
Just put the bat there and hit. A hitting device that really proves it is the BatAction machine( I have no financial interest). Hit a ball regular and then hit one with prelaunch torque and THT and see and feel what happens.
Coach Labeots writes
"You however, have explained Rotational hitting the most clearly of anyone I have read. Almost to a point of, if a hitter does this one thing he will have to swing rotationally. Am I reading that correctly?"
Its a darn good start.........You can waste five years trying it other ways
Rerun last years HR Derby and watch Tejada, Bergmon and Pujols and count the homers and the look at the preluanch torque on every single swing
"You however, have explained Rotational hitting the most clearly of anyone I have read. Almost to a point of, if a hitter does this one thing he will have to swing rotationally. Am I reading that correctly?"
Its a darn good start.........You can waste five years trying it other ways
Rerun last years HR Derby and watch Tejada, Bergmon and Pujols and count the homers and the look at the preluanch torque on every single swing
Thanks for continuing here swingbuster. 
Swingbuster, He goes to vertical because he draws his elbow back to load. After the load, the swing starts.
How could he draw his elbow back and be at 45? and why would he want to? His hands and wrists are firm, they are not tipping the bat.......the elbow is doing the loading and causing the tipping.The hands, wrists and bathead are following, but are firm.
How could he draw his elbow back and be at 45? and why would he want to? His hands and wrists are firm, they are not tipping the bat.......the elbow is doing the loading and causing the tipping.The hands, wrists and bathead are following, but are firm.
When Glaus gets the bat back to vertical is when the back elbow has loaded into the punching position and shows up behind his back, just like all the other guys who load that way. At this point, he is just at toe touch, no farther.
Troy Glaus
Troy Glaus drawing his elbow back with firm wrists and hands. The elbow has drawn back as he reaches toe touch.The hands don't push the elbow back, the elbow draws the hands back, causing the bat tip. After that, all he does is start his rotation, lower the elbow to the slot and swing the bat. Very simple and effective swing.
Scout writes:
"The hands don't push the elbow back, the elbow draws the hands back, causing the bat tip."
When the bat is tipped forward the batter has to draw the elbow back and inside and turn the top hand around the bottom to get on plane.
What I am saying is that this bat position will teach a player having problems loading how to draw the elbow back and force the good arm action that syncs the upper body in a turn with the lower body....Its not an easy skill to teach
This is a better example than Glaus...its more pronounced here.
http://www.youthbaseballcoaching.com/mpg/tejadaside.mpeg
"The hands don't push the elbow back, the elbow draws the hands back, causing the bat tip."
When the bat is tipped forward the batter has to draw the elbow back and inside and turn the top hand around the bottom to get on plane.
What I am saying is that this bat position will teach a player having problems loading how to draw the elbow back and force the good arm action that syncs the upper body in a turn with the lower body....Its not an easy skill to teach
This is a better example than Glaus...its more pronounced here.
http://www.youthbaseballcoaching.com/mpg/tejadaside.mpeg
Are you saying this movement creates batspeed or quickness?
Yes, Tejada is more pronounced than Glaus, but he is doing the same exact thing as Glaus, just more pronounced. Tejada can afford to be a little more pronounced as he is a much more compact guy at 5'9" than Glaus is at 6'5". Not too many 6'5" guys who are going to have a flamboyant pre swing style.
But, back to the point......they both draw their elbow back towards the 3rd base dugout with firm hands and wrists and have it in the loaded position at toe touch. They then start their rotation, drop the elbow into the slot and swing the bat.
Tejada has more tip, because he carries his back elbow higher than Glaus. Mantle had no tip because he did not carry his back elbow high, but he still drew it back and had more power than Glaus or Tejada.
But, back to the point......they both draw their elbow back towards the 3rd base dugout with firm hands and wrists and have it in the loaded position at toe touch. They then start their rotation, drop the elbow into the slot and swing the bat.
Tejada has more tip, because he carries his back elbow higher than Glaus. Mantle had no tip because he did not carry his back elbow high, but he still drew it back and had more power than Glaus or Tejada.
Teacherman
I am saying that this movement makes the bat turn in a circular path that matches the hips and the energy tranfer is pure and complete.I am saying that when you connect the parts correctly you can take a swing with considerably less effort and hit the ball hard.
On video ( for the slo-mo swing evaluators)
1. The hands lead/ beat the elbow to the slot.
2. The lead elbow gets above the plane of the pitch naturally because as the the bottom hand works under the top and then the top around the bottom to get on plane the lead elbow is directed to a plane above the ball
3. The hands stay palm/palm through the zone.
4. The knob starts to the oppo box not the picher( which is a linear hand path)
5. The hips are turning slightly ahead of the shoulder
As Jack said..."most batter have adequate hip shoulder rotation... but most lack the mechanics to match the circular hip turn with a circular hand path . I am talking about how to get the circular hand path that all great hitter have.
Paul ***** has said to learn how to rotate and all this works itself out....that the bat will flail into a circular path if you scap load and turn like hell. THis is probably a true statement for some but certainly not all.
While there are definite benefits to a good hip turn , it will not assure angular displacement of the bat and an "in sync upper body". From a near static position, the hips and hands have a tendency to go at the same time and the knob goes to the pitcher and you have a linear upper body and rotational lower..hence the kinetic chain is disconnected.
BBScout....Flambouyance?? THis is a method to get the bat following the path of rotation for angular acceleration. You can measure the effect with physics formulas. You cannot measure style with math and predict exponential energy increases. It has absolutely nothing to do with style other than it is a method some individuals employ to get the proper bat path. Some can get the proper bat path without it but I can find many many clips of those that use it.
It amounts to something as simple as this. This is how to swing in a circle at a ball coming in a straight line as it is not the human tendency. Swinging in a circle is mechanically far far superior to keep the bat in the zone longer, hit to all fields, and attain top bat speeds
I am saying that this movement makes the bat turn in a circular path that matches the hips and the energy tranfer is pure and complete.I am saying that when you connect the parts correctly you can take a swing with considerably less effort and hit the ball hard.
On video ( for the slo-mo swing evaluators)
1. The hands lead/ beat the elbow to the slot.
2. The lead elbow gets above the plane of the pitch naturally because as the the bottom hand works under the top and then the top around the bottom to get on plane the lead elbow is directed to a plane above the ball
3. The hands stay palm/palm through the zone.
4. The knob starts to the oppo box not the picher( which is a linear hand path)
5. The hips are turning slightly ahead of the shoulder
As Jack said..."most batter have adequate hip shoulder rotation... but most lack the mechanics to match the circular hip turn with a circular hand path . I am talking about how to get the circular hand path that all great hitter have.
Paul ***** has said to learn how to rotate and all this works itself out....that the bat will flail into a circular path if you scap load and turn like hell. THis is probably a true statement for some but certainly not all.
While there are definite benefits to a good hip turn , it will not assure angular displacement of the bat and an "in sync upper body". From a near static position, the hips and hands have a tendency to go at the same time and the knob goes to the pitcher and you have a linear upper body and rotational lower..hence the kinetic chain is disconnected.
BBScout....Flambouyance?? THis is a method to get the bat following the path of rotation for angular acceleration. You can measure the effect with physics formulas. You cannot measure style with math and predict exponential energy increases. It has absolutely nothing to do with style other than it is a method some individuals employ to get the proper bat path. Some can get the proper bat path without it but I can find many many clips of those that use it.
It amounts to something as simple as this. This is how to swing in a circle at a ball coming in a straight line as it is not the human tendency. Swinging in a circle is mechanically far far superior to keep the bat in the zone longer, hit to all fields, and attain top bat speeds
Good post buster
I think you are correct when saying it helps the hitter find the bat path. Paul has stated that over and over. It helps stabilize the swing plane.
My disagreement is whether it creates additional batspeed which is what Mankin continually preaches. Other than the speed benefit of being connected and on plane it does not create a significant increase in bat speed.
I agree it can help put the parts together.
And, specifically, I think what it does, is get the hands palm up palm down on time, before rotation. Many hitters reach the palm up palm down too late and get a sine wave type swing. If they don't get palm up palm down on time they go linear with the hands.
I think you are correct when saying it helps the hitter find the bat path. Paul has stated that over and over. It helps stabilize the swing plane.
My disagreement is whether it creates additional batspeed which is what Mankin continually preaches. Other than the speed benefit of being connected and on plane it does not create a significant increase in bat speed.
I agree it can help put the parts together.
And, specifically, I think what it does, is get the hands palm up palm down on time, before rotation. Many hitters reach the palm up palm down too late and get a sine wave type swing. If they don't get palm up palm down on time they go linear with the hands.
"If they don't get palm up palm down on time they go linear with the hands."
Teacherman, you're so right.......
Teacherman, you're so right.......
The average high school player gets the hands in a palm up palm down position on time. The key to palm up palm down is rotation and lowering the elbow into the slot.
The discussion here is about tipping the bat. Why and how is what I have been discussing. Buster brought up Glaus, so I showed a very clear clip of Glaus. He did not care for that and he showed a clip of Tejada. I have shown clips of Mantle and he loaded by drawing the back elbow towards the dugout just like Glaus and Tejada, except he carried his back elbow low, so there was no tipping of the bat. Glaus carries the back elbow fairly high and has a little tip. Tejada carries the back elbow very high and as a result has a more pronounced tip. Three different styles, but they have one thing in common.......they draw the back elbow towards the dugout. One tipped a lot, one tips a little and one did not tip.......they all had very good results.
The discussion here is about tipping the bat. Why and how is what I have been discussing. Buster brought up Glaus, so I showed a very clear clip of Glaus. He did not care for that and he showed a clip of Tejada. I have shown clips of Mantle and he loaded by drawing the back elbow towards the dugout just like Glaus and Tejada, except he carried his back elbow low, so there was no tipping of the bat. Glaus carries the back elbow fairly high and has a little tip. Tejada carries the back elbow very high and as a result has a more pronounced tip. Three different styles, but they have one thing in common.......they draw the back elbow towards the dugout. One tipped a lot, one tips a little and one did not tip.......they all had very good results.
This is a good discussion.
Best explanations I've seen on the site in a year about hitting.
Great job everyone. Keep it coming. I'd love to see a Mantle clip.
Great job everyone. Keep it coming. I'd love to see a Mantle clip.
Mickey Mantle
This is for PhoenixDad.
Mickey drawing his back elbow towards the 1st base dugout, except he starts with his elbow lower than Glaus or Tejada.It happens just about at toe touch.
"The average high school player gets the hands in a palm up palm down position on time. The key to palm up palm down is rotation and lowering the elbow into the slot."
Not what I see.......From what I see, the average High School player rolls the wrists at ball contact.....I can lower my elbow into the slot and easily roll my wrists at ball contact......
Not what I see.......From what I see, the average High School player rolls the wrists at ball contact.....I can lower my elbow into the slot and easily roll my wrists at ball contact......
I guess the topic could be considered "tipping the bat". But I don't believe Donny says to tip the bat for tipping purposes only.
That's why I asked if he thought it was generating more speed or quickness. In fact, if I understand him, it helps get the hands flat and the planes matched before rotation.
If I've interpreted him correctly, I agree.
Scout,
I don't believe most hs players get the hands flat on time. In fact I think this is one of their greatest faults. Failure to do so breaks down the entire connection process.
I don't see many players whose hands are flat on time that have large connection issues.
I do see many hs players with connection issues.
Only when the hands get flat does connection have a chance to lock in. Until then the arms and hands can go off on their own.
The rightview pro lag position demonstrates this well. Compare video of the pros to hs and see the difference in the lag position.
That's why I asked if he thought it was generating more speed or quickness. In fact, if I understand him, it helps get the hands flat and the planes matched before rotation.
If I've interpreted him correctly, I agree.
Scout,
I don't believe most hs players get the hands flat on time. In fact I think this is one of their greatest faults. Failure to do so breaks down the entire connection process.
I don't see many players whose hands are flat on time that have large connection issues.
I do see many hs players with connection issues.
Only when the hands get flat does connection have a chance to lock in. Until then the arms and hands can go off on their own.
The rightview pro lag position demonstrates this well. Compare video of the pros to hs and see the difference in the lag position.
Bluedog, Maybe the kids in your neighborhood roll over. I don't see much of it in my neighborhood.
I don't imagine most of the players a scout sees has the problem.
We lay people, who deal with average to below average kids who want to get better, see it all the time.
We lay people, who deal with average to below average kids who want to get better, see it all the time.
Scout, seems to be alot of interest in this thread.......Perhaps, others are seeing what I am seeing?..... 
Bluedog, There is some interest in this thread. I would like to read your comments on the three clips that have been provided.
It'll have to be later, Scout......I can't open the clips where I am now......
Scout.
YOU ARE RIGHT..it is about getting the rear elbow around to the punching position at the end of the load cycle.. I am telling one way many players get it there. I offered up Glaus..not you... if you read back. I offered him because he started in the 45 slot went more vertical( not completely) and back. I say the arm and hand action has a purpose in allowing an aiding the elbow to load in the punching position.
I am not here to one up anybody or to present myself as an expert. I want people to help clarify this to help hitters. THe how to rotate the upper body properly is about arm and hand action.
Palm /palm at contact is about the rear elbow slotting but as important, the lead elbow getting above the plane of the pitch. If you don't think so show me footage of it where the lead elbow is not above the pitch....its not possible for the hands to stay flat unless the rear elbow stays down and its not possible to stay flat for long unless the lead elbow works up( Epsteins finest work). HS kids are not in this position enough IMO.
Epstein works the unload cycle in his tapes. IOWs he starts with the rear elbow down and teaches kids to rotate and get their lead elbow above the plane of the pitch. Now the hands are flat by virtue of the relative elbow positions.
So..as Shawn has said.....the high rear elbow is the end of the load cycle....Epstein says the high front elbow essential on the way to contact nearing the end of the unload cycle. In between is some interesting arm and hand action that Mankin describes best. To ignore that it exist and fail to see it as important to some batters would be gret info wasted.
YOU ARE RIGHT..it is about getting the rear elbow around to the punching position at the end of the load cycle.. I am telling one way many players get it there. I offered up Glaus..not you... if you read back. I offered him because he started in the 45 slot went more vertical( not completely) and back. I say the arm and hand action has a purpose in allowing an aiding the elbow to load in the punching position.
I am not here to one up anybody or to present myself as an expert. I want people to help clarify this to help hitters. THe how to rotate the upper body properly is about arm and hand action.
Palm /palm at contact is about the rear elbow slotting but as important, the lead elbow getting above the plane of the pitch. If you don't think so show me footage of it where the lead elbow is not above the pitch....its not possible for the hands to stay flat unless the rear elbow stays down and its not possible to stay flat for long unless the lead elbow works up( Epsteins finest work). HS kids are not in this position enough IMO.
Epstein works the unload cycle in his tapes. IOWs he starts with the rear elbow down and teaches kids to rotate and get their lead elbow above the plane of the pitch. Now the hands are flat by virtue of the relative elbow positions.
So..as Shawn has said.....the high rear elbow is the end of the load cycle....Epstein says the high front elbow essential on the way to contact nearing the end of the unload cycle. In between is some interesting arm and hand action that Mankin describes best. To ignore that it exist and fail to see it as important to some batters would be gret info wasted.
I'm not so sure about the "turn the hips like "heck"" comment. A lot of the clips of good hitters I've seen show the hips turning about toward right field with not much pivot as the elbow drops into the slot and then fully opening in conjunction with the bat head coming around.
I think there are some kids out there popping their hips too hard and too soon.
This came to mind this morning as I was watching my son do dry swings in the mirror and his hips were fully open before his elbow even began to drop into the slot. Not surprisingly he's been hitting a lot of bouncing grounders to the left side lately and then hitting high flies when he tries to adjust. I attribute that to opening early and then rolling the hands a bit to get the bat around.
I had him try to hit ground balls during BP yesterday partially to show him that he was swinging up the back of the ball. Trying to hit grounders resulted in line drives.
I think there are some kids out there popping their hips too hard and too soon.
This came to mind this morning as I was watching my son do dry swings in the mirror and his hips were fully open before his elbow even began to drop into the slot. Not surprisingly he's been hitting a lot of bouncing grounders to the left side lately and then hitting high flies when he tries to adjust. I attribute that to opening early and then rolling the hands a bit to get the bat around.
I had him try to hit ground balls during BP yesterday partially to show him that he was swinging up the back of the ball. Trying to hit grounders resulted in line drives.
quote:
Originally posted by swingbuster:
Scout.
YOU ARE RIGHT..it is about getting the rear elbow around to the punching position at the end of the load cycle.. I am telling one way many players get it there. I offered up Glaus..not you... if you read back. I offered him because he started in the 45 slot went more vertical( not completely) and back. I say the arm and hand action has a purpose in allowing an aiding the elbow to load in the punching position.
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Buster, The reason I stressed the elbow and not the hands is that I don't want to see kids getting flippy wristed when tipping the bat. I want to see the bat tip with firm hands and wrists which drawing the elbow back does
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I am not here to one up anybody or to present myself as an expert. I want people to help clarify this to help hitters. THe how to rotate the upper body properly is about arm and hand action.
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And shoulder action
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Palm /palm at contact is about the rear elbow slotting but as important, the lead elbow getting above the plane of the pitch. If you don't think so show me footage of it where the lead elbow is not above the pitch....its not possible for the hands to stay flat unless the rear elbow stays down and its not possible to stay flat for long unless the lead elbow works up( Epsteins finest work). HS kids are not in this position enough IMO.
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I never disagreed about the lead elbow, in fact I never mentioned it. I agree with this post about the back elbow.
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Epstein works the unload cycle in his tapes. IOWs he starts with the rear elbow down and teaches kids to rotate and get their lead elbow above the plane of the pitch. Now the hands are flat by virtue of the relative elbow positions.
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I enjoy reading and listening to Mike, but I enjoy watching clips even more.
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So..as Shawn has said.....the high rear elbow is the end of the load cycle....Epstein says the high front elbow essential on the way to contact nearing the end of the unload cycle. In between is some interesting arm and hand action that Mankin describes best. To ignore that it exist and fail to see it as important to some batters would be gret info wasted.
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Not sure I agree with the comment about the high rear elbow being the end of the load cycle, as Mantle's rear elbow was not high, but he was loaded
Doug
Thanks for the memories of Micky. You're right, it's hard to pick up unless you're experienced but it's definately there. I'll just enjoy you guys at work on this thread and stick to pitching.
Thread of the (young) year so far.
Thanks for the memories of Micky. You're right, it's hard to pick up unless you're experienced but it's definately there. I'll just enjoy you guys at work on this thread and stick to pitching.
Thread of the (young) year so far.
Scout..you said something earlier in a post on the order of
Why would somebody try to get in the punching position out of the 45 slot?
Well many still try it and it is hard to do. Thats my main point in all of this. Why hasn't someone written before that "hey man , its hard to load with your elbow down and the bat in the 45 slot.....try this xyz...... you would have saved me a few years of misery
I do not disagree about firm hands and wrist vs. flippy.
Why would somebody try to get in the punching position out of the 45 slot?
Well many still try it and it is hard to do. Thats my main point in all of this. Why hasn't someone written before that "hey man , its hard to load with your elbow down and the bat in the 45 slot.....try this xyz...... you would have saved me a few years of misery
I do not disagree about firm hands and wrist vs. flippy.
Swingbuster, Good posts......nothing more to debate about on this subject.
Remember in Little League when the coach always said to get your elbow up.......he was probably right.
Remember in Little League when the coach always said to get your elbow up.......he was probably right.
quote:
Originally posted by bbscout:
Swingbuster, Good posts......nothing more to debate about on this subject.
Remember in Little League when the coach always said to get your elbow up.......he was probably right.
bbscout,
I've said the same thing before!
But the LL coach who can't explain it is open for easy challenge from kids, other coaches, or even parents. I've sure seen my share of bad raised rear elbows too, where the player just lifts the elbow, but nowhere near "hides the hands".Good stuff here!
I'm wondering if rotational hitting = power hitter, and linear hitting = higher batting average? Or did Gwynn, Boggs, Rose, Brett and the likes use Rotational, or linear? Has someone looked at this.
Swingbuster thanks for your patience.
Swingbuster thanks for your patience.
