School Ball and Summer Ball Collision

I don't think high school coaches should have a say in how a player trains in the offseason. Especially when they are getting decent training on the side. Suggestions should be welcome, but it should also be up to the player. However, day one of the season, your rules are your rules. If a player shows up to tryouts out of shape, that is his problem. I would offer advice, but not force anything. 

Either way, not a good start for a freshman trying to make an impression. If he did throw a lot in the summer/fall just say you're shutting down until this date. 

Good points.  And remember: he is JUST a Freshman.  So the way he expressed it to me may not be the correct translation of what his summer coach told him.  I"m not jumping to any conclusions yet....

We made it clear when the official start of school practices are and it was a rule that a player inform us of any outside play or instruction so that we can manage things properly.  It is almost always beneficial for both the player and the HS program if the player is involved in travel and/or outside instruction, so it makes sense to have everyone working together, including during those grey area conditioning periods. 

I will say, though, that freshman would be in for a bit of a jolt if he came in with even a hint of trying to tell me how things are going to be.  I guarantee that would be "corrected" real quickly.  He would know instantly that my expectation is that he respectfully ask.  I actually sort of like it when those things  come up early on.  The young man will either get the message and be a good program citizen going forward or we will know he is someone that we will be better off without... don't care how good he is.  

Sounds like it is possible that he and travel coach came up with an arm shutdown plan, which is fine, but it still has to be communicated properly and work with the timing of the HS program.

Sounds like a well advised arm shutdown concern to me.  My son has never picked up a baseball in the month of November in his life.  Not sure why any would, but that's been debated many times here. 

Go play basketball...and start up in January

My son's program shuts down all their pitchers for November and half of December.  They do "arm care" stuff during this period.  And, then they start building back to throwing.  That said, our HS (at least mine) doesn't start any off-season workouts until January.  

My son is a pitcher and will take a couple of months off from throwing in the winter. He participates in off-season school workouts, but even his high school coach recommends shutting down until a few weeks before try-outs. This kids' communication may need to be refined, but I generally think this is common and a very good idea for injury prevention.

My son didn't throw for the first time during Fall ball.  He was doing summer ball until the very end of August, so he completely shut down Sept.- now, even though we had fall games.  Our first game is the first week of February so he will start back next week.  The school schedules that incorporate fall ball make it really hard to have any shut down at all.  This is the first time we have done it.  The downside is that other pitchers were showing what they had all fall and he didn't.  It would be nice if Fall was just arm care for pitchers but that doesn't happen here.  All that said, his coach said he was fine with it. Our main starting pitcher shut down as well and the coach told them it was ok.

My ultimate concern would also be why are you having kids throw to prepare for season in November?  "At what point, though, do I get to start getting this kids arm in shape.  He is a pitcher too, and this is a time when we like to gradually start getting our players arms built up for the Spring season."

I would be upset with my high school coach if he had my kid throwing right now.  In my opinion, every kid who pitched this year should be shut down at this time.  I know there are guys who didn't throw that need to throw but not most pitchers.  My son threw a lot during spring, summer, and fall.  Finished at Jupiter and we had a conversation with the high school coach who he also has for conditioning that he was not picking up a baseball until January.  

Remember, that ninth graders are not good communicators but I have to respect that the summer coach is concerned about his arm.  I'm sure the summer coach told him you threw enough this summer and fall.  You do not need to throw at all for the next month or so.  His ninth grade wording was "my summer coach said I can't throw." 

TCB1.....when you say "throw"....I"m assuming you must mean come in and throw back and forth for awhile....not ramp it up and pitch from a mound to a catcher at full go?   We were from Ohio....my son took every chance he could get to get out of this crap weather and throw inside, which at our school wasn't very often due to basketball thinking they owned the place lol.   I think some of the people here are taking your "throw" as pitching, which I doubt is the case this time of year.  Heck, my son would have gone just to have a glove on his hand, hang out with the team and take some swings.  Our "off season" was basically on the kids....no set schedule until mid-February for the last month or so before practice started....so he and a couple other guys were always in the gym.  I see no harm in coming in and tossing the ball around....and as a freshman, getting to know your teammates.  I'd have a real hard time with a freshman coming in and telling you how it was going to be.....though as you said, maybe he didn't word it quite like his summer coach meant.  I really assume the summer guy told him "no pitching".....not "don't go throw the ball around in the gym for 10 minutes".   

I still disagree Buckeye.  A pitcher who threw a lot this spring, summer, and fall has no business throwing a ball at all during November and December.  If they are just fielders or very part time pitchers, then that is a different thing.  A true pitcher needs to not pick up a ball so to say that he uses this time to begin the process of preparing pitchers for the spring worries me since even in the south you are four months from season starting. 

If you pitched in the Fall, yeah. But around here a lot of kids* shut down in August and early Fall and start ramping up now (season starts Feb. 9th). My son threw his first bullpen yesterday -- hadn't pitched since July 12th (though he's been doing flat ground throwing since September). He'll start throwing in games probably early December -- an inning per outing the first two or three weeks, then two innings per outing for a couple of weeks, etc. Will probably throw 15 innings before season starts and if things go really well, about 70 innings during the season (has been 55-60 the last two years).

*Saw an interview yesterday (signing day) with a PG All-American pitcher, the reporter asked what he's been up to, and he said he shut down right after the game at Petco, and now he is starting to ramp up. It's very common here. Situation may be different in other parts of the country.

I have some thoughts that might not "jive" with some other comments.  First, we didn't throw baseballs in my open gyms.  Our AD wouldn't allow it.  We threw footballs and then the players would do fun things like get their running in while running routes.  I do understand the need to throw.  I also know that my daughter never shut down.  Then again, she played year around.  Personally, I wouldn't have a problem with this young man not throwing.  My position was always that open gym is an opportunity to work on your game.  Most wanted to hit but all threw footballs.  (Some pitchers didn't want to hit.)  All did fielding drills which were set up by seniors.  

While I understand the need for this young man to shut down, I wouldn't count on him for any bigger plans if there is a possibility that he might fit that bill.  The last year of my baseball coaching career, I had one player play for a big time TB program.  He stopped coming to open gyms after his TB Coach told him to stop coming.  He was a four year starter and his senior year was his worst year by far.  It was much worse than that.  The seniors would ask where x was.  They already knew and then would say how he was better than them he didn't have to come.  A rift was caused on what was a very good team.    I eventually found out because he came to me to talk about it. He was being told not to do what I said WRT hitting and he was going over after practice to that guy for hitting lessons.  He wanted me to "fix him" before he went to college.  Personally, that left a bad taste in my mouth and so, I admit that I view the OP differently than the rest.  

2019Dad same boat here.  Tryouts for all highschool level teams are occurring right now.    Practices begin as soon as we get back from Christmas break and first game early February.   My 2019 RHP  shut down early August, started throwing again mid October. 

I guess I've never been one of those "need to shut it down" guys....mostly because my son wouldn't have it       He played SS, C and P from 8U thru 14U then SS and P once he got to HS.  Spring, summer and fall every year...if a team called and needed someone on Wednesday, he was there...he just wanted to play.....and he would just keep throwing....from the end of fall right til the start of HS practice in March.  He was 5'9, 150 and throwing 90 his junior year in HS...so I think it worked out ok for him lol.  Never iced, never ran poles...nothing.  He just showed up, stretched a little then went at it.  Maybe he got lucky....I don't know.....but it worked out ok for him

To answer a couple of questions:

No, we are not having the kids pitch yet.  Not on flat ground, not on mounds.  But since we are only going 2 days a week, I don't see a problem with kids coming in and warming up their arms.  This means progressive throwing (1 knee, no stride, post-position, etc) up to full warm-up tosses.  Being as we're inside, that means about 100 feet.

Also please understand, I'm  not asking for a stamp of approval from anyone about our program, how we set it up, and when we start.  For those who say "It's too early to have them throw in November", I'm sorry, I've been doing this for almost 30 years now, and while you might be a parent of a kid who plays summer ball for a great team, you don't get to dictate to me what is OK in my program.  My search for comments was not about whether what I was doing was "OK" or not, it was whether other coaches have run in to this type of dictatorial behavior.

Which I guess furthers the question of whether this is the situation where parents just assume that their player's summer coach MUST know much better what is good for their son than a high school coach.  Something we see quite often around here as there is the assumption, I think, that most high school coaches are just English teachers looking to make an extra buck, or Football coaches looking for something to do in the Spring. I also think some of it depends on what region you live in.  As you see from some posts above, the seasons and how things are set up are very different from State to State.

Mind you, if he had come to me and said that his arm was a little "dead" and he didn't want to throw any for a while, I would have reacted the same way:  "Hey, these are open gyms. Do whatever you feel comfortable doing".....I just would have liked it better than basically being told, by someone who wasn't there and doesn't know my program, what players WILL and WILL NOT be doing. 

In fact, if the kid had just said "My mom/dad said that since I just got done playing Fall ball recently and they want me to take it easy on my arm", I think I would have taken it better.  I would have just shrugged it off as mom/dad wanting to protect their kid because his arm was a little used up.  I think when it was another coach who essentially will "let me know" when I can have my players, it irritated me a bit.  

Sorry if I am a bit old school, but I don't see where a kid coming to an open gym and wanting to participate will hurt himself by warming up for 5 or 10 minutes prior to taking infield, hitting, or other baseball related activities.  I'm going to bet I've preserved and protected many more arms in my time as a coach than a lot of the select ball coaches in my area.

Buckeye2015....I know that kid.  And I've had many like him. I was one of those too.  But I also recognize there are kids that just don't have that kind of resiliency in their arms, and will need more rest and more conditioning.  Each kid is a little different.  

TCB1 posted:

To answer a couple of questions:

No, we are not having the kids pitch yet.  Not on flat ground, not on mounds.  But since we are only going 2 days a week, I don't see a problem with kids coming in and warming up their arms.  This means progressive throwing (1 knee, no stride, post-position, etc) up to full warm-up tosses.  Being as we're inside, that means about 100 feet.

Also please understand, I'm  not asking for a stamp of approval from anyone about our program, how we set it up, and when we start.  For those who say "It's too early to have them throw in November", I'm sorry, I've been doing this for almost 30 years now, and while you might be a parent of a kid who plays summer ball for a great team, you don't get to dictate to me what is OK in my program.  My search for comments was not about whether what I was doing was "OK" or not, it was whether other coaches have run in to this type of dictatorial behavior.

Which I guess furthers the question of whether this is the situation where parents just assume that their player's summer coach MUST know much better what is good for their son than a high school coach.  Something we see quite often around here as there is the assumption, I think, that most high school coaches are just English teachers looking to make an extra buck, or Football coaches looking for something to do in the Spring. I also think some of it depends on what region you live in.  As you see from some posts above, the seasons and how things are set up are very different from State to State.

Mind you, if he had come to me and said that his arm was a little "dead" and he didn't want to throw any for a while, I would have reacted the same way:  "Hey, these are open gyms. Do whatever you feel comfortable doing".....I just would have liked it better than basically being told, by someone who wasn't there and doesn't know my program, what players WILL and WILL NOT be doing. 

In fact, if the kid had just said "My mom/dad said that since I just got done playing Fall ball recently and they want me to take it easy on my arm", I think I would have taken it better.  I would have just shrugged it off as mom/dad wanting to protect their kid because his arm was a little used up.  I think when it was another coach who essentially will "let me know" when I can have my players, it irritated me a bit.  

Sorry if I am a bit old school, but I don't see where a kid coming to an open gym and wanting to participate will hurt himself by warming up for 5 or 10 minutes prior to taking infield, hitting, or other baseball related activities.  I'm going to bet I've preserved and protected many more arms in my time as a coach than a lot of the select ball coaches in my area.

 

 

 

 

That was quite the dictatorial response...

My freshman kid stopped throwing after Labor Day. He is starting his Driveline program now.

CTbballDad posted:

TCB1 posted:

To answer a couple of questions:

No, we are not having the kids pitch yet.  Not on flat ground, not on mounds.  But since we are only going 2 days a week, I don't see a problem with kids coming in and warming up their arms.  This means progressive throwing (1 knee, no stride, post-position, etc) up to full warm-up tosses.  Being as we're inside, that means about 100 feet.

Also please understand, I'm  not asking for a stamp of approval from anyone about our program, how we set it up, and when we start.  For those who say "It's too early to have them throw in November", I'm sorry, I've been doing this for almost 30 years now, and while you might be a parent of a kid who plays summer ball for a great team, you don't get to dictate to me what is OK in my program.  My search for comments was not about whether what I was doing was "OK" or not, it was whether other coaches have run in to this type of dictatorial behavior.

Which I guess furthers the question of whether this is the situation where parents just assume that their player's summer coach MUST know much better what is good for their son than a high school coach.  Something we see quite often around here as there is the assumption, I think, that most high school coaches are just English teachers looking to make an extra buck, or Football coaches looking for something to do in the Spring. I also think some of it depends on what region you live in.  As you see from some posts above, the seasons and how things are set up are very different from State to State.

Mind you, if he had come to me and said that his arm was a little "dead" and he didn't want to throw any for a while, I would have reacted the same way:  "Hey, these are open gyms. Do whatever you feel comfortable doing".....I just would have liked it better than basically being told, by someone who wasn't there and doesn't know my program, what players WILL and WILL NOT be doing. 

In fact, if the kid had just said "My mom/dad said that since I just got done playing Fall ball recently and they want me to take it easy on my arm", I think I would have taken it better.  I would have just shrugged it off as mom/dad wanting to protect their kid because his arm was a little used up.  I think when it was another coach who essentially will "let me know" when I can have my players, it irritated me a bit.  

Sorry if I am a bit old school, but I don't see where a kid coming to an open gym and wanting to participate will hurt himself by warming up for 5 or 10 minutes prior to taking infield, hitting, or other baseball related activities.  I'm going to bet I've preserved and protected many more arms in my time as a coach than a lot of the select ball coaches in my area.

 

 

 

 

That was quite the dictatorial response...

Really?  I thought it was a response from someone who had a program in place and expected to continue that program.  No where in it did he say anything about punishments, barring the kid from participating, ...  That would have been dictatorial.  I might have responded exactly the same.  

To be sure the perspectives of parents and coaches are different.  Here we have a coach who wants to work and wants his players to have success.  So often on these websites, the HS coach is criticized for not knowing anything and not working hard.  Without knowing more and making it as simple as possible, a freshman came in and told a varsity coach that someone else tells them what to do and screw the HS coach's program.  If turnabout were fair play, then would you support the HS coach telling the kid that he forbids the player from doing something the TB coach wanted done?  The reality here, and it is becoming more and more apparent, parents etc. believe that the HS coach doesn't know a thing and the TB coach is nearly unquestioned.  I've been a HC in four sports and this perspective seems to be more and more common.  While I consider myself an "ex expert," I've learned that most of the experts out there pretend to know a hell of lot more than they really know.  JMHO!