School Ball and Summer Ball Collision

I don't think high school coaches should have a say in how a player trains in the offseason. Especially when they are getting decent training on the side. Suggestions should be welcome, but it should also be up to the player. However, day one of the season, your rules are your rules. If a player shows up to tryouts out of shape, that is his problem. I would offer advice, but not force anything. 

Either way, not a good start for a freshman trying to make an impression. If he did throw a lot in the summer/fall just say you're shutting down until this date. 

Good points.  And remember: he is JUST a Freshman.  So the way he expressed it to me may not be the correct translation of what his summer coach told him.  I"m not jumping to any conclusions yet....

We made it clear when the official start of school practices are and it was a rule that a player inform us of any outside play or instruction so that we can manage things properly.  It is almost always beneficial for both the player and the HS program if the player is involved in travel and/or outside instruction, so it makes sense to have everyone working together, including during those grey area conditioning periods. 

I will say, though, that freshman would be in for a bit of a jolt if he came in with even a hint of trying to tell me how things are going to be.  I guarantee that would be "corrected" real quickly.  He would know instantly that my expectation is that he respectfully ask.  I actually sort of like it when those things  come up early on.  The young man will either get the message and be a good program citizen going forward or we will know he is someone that we will be better off without... don't care how good he is.  

Sounds like it is possible that he and travel coach came up with an arm shutdown plan, which is fine, but it still has to be communicated properly and work with the timing of the HS program.

Sounds like a well advised arm shutdown concern to me.  My son has never picked up a baseball in the month of November in his life.  Not sure why any would, but that's been debated many times here. 

Go play basketball...and start up in January

My son's program shuts down all their pitchers for November and half of December.  They do "arm care" stuff during this period.  And, then they start building back to throwing.  That said, our HS (at least mine) doesn't start any off-season workouts until January.  

My son is a pitcher and will take a couple of months off from throwing in the winter. He participates in off-season school workouts, but even his high school coach recommends shutting down until a few weeks before try-outs. This kids' communication may need to be refined, but I generally think this is common and a very good idea for injury prevention.

My son didn't throw for the first time during Fall ball.  He was doing summer ball until the very end of August, so he completely shut down Sept.- now, even though we had fall games.  Our first game is the first week of February so he will start back next week.  The school schedules that incorporate fall ball make it really hard to have any shut down at all.  This is the first time we have done it.  The downside is that other pitchers were showing what they had all fall and he didn't.  It would be nice if Fall was just arm care for pitchers but that doesn't happen here.  All that said, his coach said he was fine with it. Our main starting pitcher shut down as well and the coach told them it was ok.

My ultimate concern would also be why are you having kids throw to prepare for season in November?  "At what point, though, do I get to start getting this kids arm in shape.  He is a pitcher too, and this is a time when we like to gradually start getting our players arms built up for the Spring season."

I would be upset with my high school coach if he had my kid throwing right now.  In my opinion, every kid who pitched this year should be shut down at this time.  I know there are guys who didn't throw that need to throw but not most pitchers.  My son threw a lot during spring, summer, and fall.  Finished at Jupiter and we had a conversation with the high school coach who he also has for conditioning that he was not picking up a baseball until January.  

Remember, that ninth graders are not good communicators but I have to respect that the summer coach is concerned about his arm.  I'm sure the summer coach told him you threw enough this summer and fall.  You do not need to throw at all for the next month or so.  His ninth grade wording was "my summer coach said I can't throw." 

TCB1.....when you say "throw"....I"m assuming you must mean come in and throw back and forth for awhile....not ramp it up and pitch from a mound to a catcher at full go?   We were from Ohio....my son took every chance he could get to get out of this crap weather and throw inside, which at our school wasn't very often due to basketball thinking they owned the place lol.   I think some of the people here are taking your "throw" as pitching, which I doubt is the case this time of year.  Heck, my son would have gone just to have a glove on his hand, hang out with the team and take some swings.  Our "off season" was basically on the kids....no set schedule until mid-February for the last month or so before practice started....so he and a couple other guys were always in the gym.  I see no harm in coming in and tossing the ball around....and as a freshman, getting to know your teammates.  I'd have a real hard time with a freshman coming in and telling you how it was going to be.....though as you said, maybe he didn't word it quite like his summer coach meant.  I really assume the summer guy told him "no pitching".....not "don't go throw the ball around in the gym for 10 minutes".   

I still disagree Buckeye.  A pitcher who threw a lot this spring, summer, and fall has no business throwing a ball at all during November and December.  If they are just fielders or very part time pitchers, then that is a different thing.  A true pitcher needs to not pick up a ball so to say that he uses this time to begin the process of preparing pitchers for the spring worries me since even in the south you are four months from season starting. 

If you pitched in the Fall, yeah. But around here a lot of kids* shut down in August and early Fall and start ramping up now (season starts Feb. 9th). My son threw his first bullpen yesterday -- hadn't pitched since July 12th (though he's been doing flat ground throwing since September). He'll start throwing in games probably early December -- an inning per outing the first two or three weeks, then two innings per outing for a couple of weeks, etc. Will probably throw 15 innings before season starts and if things go really well, about 70 innings during the season (has been 55-60 the last two years).

*Saw an interview yesterday (signing day) with a PG All-American pitcher, the reporter asked what he's been up to, and he said he shut down right after the game at Petco, and now he is starting to ramp up. It's very common here. Situation may be different in other parts of the country.

I have some thoughts that might not "jive" with some other comments.  First, we didn't throw baseballs in my open gyms.  Our AD wouldn't allow it.  We threw footballs and then the players would do fun things like get their running in while running routes.  I do understand the need to throw.  I also know that my daughter never shut down.  Then again, she played year around.  Personally, I wouldn't have a problem with this young man not throwing.  My position was always that open gym is an opportunity to work on your game.  Most wanted to hit but all threw footballs.  (Some pitchers didn't want to hit.)  All did fielding drills which were set up by seniors.  

While I understand the need for this young man to shut down, I wouldn't count on him for any bigger plans if there is a possibility that he might fit that bill.  The last year of my baseball coaching career, I had one player play for a big time TB program.  He stopped coming to open gyms after his TB Coach told him to stop coming.  He was a four year starter and his senior year was his worst year by far.  It was much worse than that.  The seniors would ask where x was.  They already knew and then would say how he was better than them he didn't have to come.  A rift was caused on what was a very good team.    I eventually found out because he came to me to talk about it. He was being told not to do what I said WRT hitting and he was going over after practice to that guy for hitting lessons.  He wanted me to "fix him" before he went to college.  Personally, that left a bad taste in my mouth and so, I admit that I view the OP differently than the rest.  

2019Dad same boat here.  Tryouts for all highschool level teams are occurring right now.    Practices begin as soon as we get back from Christmas break and first game early February.   My 2019 RHP  shut down early August, started throwing again mid October. 

I guess I've never been one of those "need to shut it down" guys....mostly because my son wouldn't have it       He played SS, C and P from 8U thru 14U then SS and P once he got to HS.  Spring, summer and fall every year...if a team called and needed someone on Wednesday, he was there...he just wanted to play.....and he would just keep throwing....from the end of fall right til the start of HS practice in March.  He was 5'9, 150 and throwing 90 his junior year in HS...so I think it worked out ok for him lol.  Never iced, never ran poles...nothing.  He just showed up, stretched a little then went at it.  Maybe he got lucky....I don't know.....but it worked out ok for him

To answer a couple of questions:

No, we are not having the kids pitch yet.  Not on flat ground, not on mounds.  But since we are only going 2 days a week, I don't see a problem with kids coming in and warming up their arms.  This means progressive throwing (1 knee, no stride, post-position, etc) up to full warm-up tosses.  Being as we're inside, that means about 100 feet.

Also please understand, I'm  not asking for a stamp of approval from anyone about our program, how we set it up, and when we start.  For those who say "It's too early to have them throw in November", I'm sorry, I've been doing this for almost 30 years now, and while you might be a parent of a kid who plays summer ball for a great team, you don't get to dictate to me what is OK in my program.  My search for comments was not about whether what I was doing was "OK" or not, it was whether other coaches have run in to this type of dictatorial behavior.

Which I guess furthers the question of whether this is the situation where parents just assume that their player's summer coach MUST know much better what is good for their son than a high school coach.  Something we see quite often around here as there is the assumption, I think, that most high school coaches are just English teachers looking to make an extra buck, or Football coaches looking for something to do in the Spring. I also think some of it depends on what region you live in.  As you see from some posts above, the seasons and how things are set up are very different from State to State.

Mind you, if he had come to me and said that his arm was a little "dead" and he didn't want to throw any for a while, I would have reacted the same way:  "Hey, these are open gyms. Do whatever you feel comfortable doing".....I just would have liked it better than basically being told, by someone who wasn't there and doesn't know my program, what players WILL and WILL NOT be doing. 

In fact, if the kid had just said "My mom/dad said that since I just got done playing Fall ball recently and they want me to take it easy on my arm", I think I would have taken it better.  I would have just shrugged it off as mom/dad wanting to protect their kid because his arm was a little used up.  I think when it was another coach who essentially will "let me know" when I can have my players, it irritated me a bit.  

Sorry if I am a bit old school, but I don't see where a kid coming to an open gym and wanting to participate will hurt himself by warming up for 5 or 10 minutes prior to taking infield, hitting, or other baseball related activities.  I'm going to bet I've preserved and protected many more arms in my time as a coach than a lot of the select ball coaches in my area.

Buckeye2015....I know that kid.  And I've had many like him. I was one of those too.  But I also recognize there are kids that just don't have that kind of resiliency in their arms, and will need more rest and more conditioning.  Each kid is a little different.  

TCB1 posted:

To answer a couple of questions:

No, we are not having the kids pitch yet.  Not on flat ground, not on mounds.  But since we are only going 2 days a week, I don't see a problem with kids coming in and warming up their arms.  This means progressive throwing (1 knee, no stride, post-position, etc) up to full warm-up tosses.  Being as we're inside, that means about 100 feet.

Also please understand, I'm  not asking for a stamp of approval from anyone about our program, how we set it up, and when we start.  For those who say "It's too early to have them throw in November", I'm sorry, I've been doing this for almost 30 years now, and while you might be a parent of a kid who plays summer ball for a great team, you don't get to dictate to me what is OK in my program.  My search for comments was not about whether what I was doing was "OK" or not, it was whether other coaches have run in to this type of dictatorial behavior.

Which I guess furthers the question of whether this is the situation where parents just assume that their player's summer coach MUST know much better what is good for their son than a high school coach.  Something we see quite often around here as there is the assumption, I think, that most high school coaches are just English teachers looking to make an extra buck, or Football coaches looking for something to do in the Spring. I also think some of it depends on what region you live in.  As you see from some posts above, the seasons and how things are set up are very different from State to State.

Mind you, if he had come to me and said that his arm was a little "dead" and he didn't want to throw any for a while, I would have reacted the same way:  "Hey, these are open gyms. Do whatever you feel comfortable doing".....I just would have liked it better than basically being told, by someone who wasn't there and doesn't know my program, what players WILL and WILL NOT be doing. 

In fact, if the kid had just said "My mom/dad said that since I just got done playing Fall ball recently and they want me to take it easy on my arm", I think I would have taken it better.  I would have just shrugged it off as mom/dad wanting to protect their kid because his arm was a little used up.  I think when it was another coach who essentially will "let me know" when I can have my players, it irritated me a bit.  

Sorry if I am a bit old school, but I don't see where a kid coming to an open gym and wanting to participate will hurt himself by warming up for 5 or 10 minutes prior to taking infield, hitting, or other baseball related activities.  I'm going to bet I've preserved and protected many more arms in my time as a coach than a lot of the select ball coaches in my area.

 

 

 

 

That was quite the dictatorial response...

My freshman kid stopped throwing after Labor Day. He is starting his Driveline program now.

CTbballDad posted:

TCB1 posted:

To answer a couple of questions:

No, we are not having the kids pitch yet.  Not on flat ground, not on mounds.  But since we are only going 2 days a week, I don't see a problem with kids coming in and warming up their arms.  This means progressive throwing (1 knee, no stride, post-position, etc) up to full warm-up tosses.  Being as we're inside, that means about 100 feet.

Also please understand, I'm  not asking for a stamp of approval from anyone about our program, how we set it up, and when we start.  For those who say "It's too early to have them throw in November", I'm sorry, I've been doing this for almost 30 years now, and while you might be a parent of a kid who plays summer ball for a great team, you don't get to dictate to me what is OK in my program.  My search for comments was not about whether what I was doing was "OK" or not, it was whether other coaches have run in to this type of dictatorial behavior.

Which I guess furthers the question of whether this is the situation where parents just assume that their player's summer coach MUST know much better what is good for their son than a high school coach.  Something we see quite often around here as there is the assumption, I think, that most high school coaches are just English teachers looking to make an extra buck, or Football coaches looking for something to do in the Spring. I also think some of it depends on what region you live in.  As you see from some posts above, the seasons and how things are set up are very different from State to State.

Mind you, if he had come to me and said that his arm was a little "dead" and he didn't want to throw any for a while, I would have reacted the same way:  "Hey, these are open gyms. Do whatever you feel comfortable doing".....I just would have liked it better than basically being told, by someone who wasn't there and doesn't know my program, what players WILL and WILL NOT be doing. 

In fact, if the kid had just said "My mom/dad said that since I just got done playing Fall ball recently and they want me to take it easy on my arm", I think I would have taken it better.  I would have just shrugged it off as mom/dad wanting to protect their kid because his arm was a little used up.  I think when it was another coach who essentially will "let me know" when I can have my players, it irritated me a bit.  

Sorry if I am a bit old school, but I don't see where a kid coming to an open gym and wanting to participate will hurt himself by warming up for 5 or 10 minutes prior to taking infield, hitting, or other baseball related activities.  I'm going to bet I've preserved and protected many more arms in my time as a coach than a lot of the select ball coaches in my area.

 

 

 

 

That was quite the dictatorial response...

Really?  I thought it was a response from someone who had a program in place and expected to continue that program.  No where in it did he say anything about punishments, barring the kid from participating, ...  That would have been dictatorial.  I might have responded exactly the same.  

To be sure the perspectives of parents and coaches are different.  Here we have a coach who wants to work and wants his players to have success.  So often on these websites, the HS coach is criticized for not knowing anything and not working hard.  Without knowing more and making it as simple as possible, a freshman came in and told a varsity coach that someone else tells them what to do and screw the HS coach's program.  If turnabout were fair play, then would you support the HS coach telling the kid that he forbids the player from doing something the TB coach wanted done?  The reality here, and it is becoming more and more apparent, parents etc. believe that the HS coach doesn't know a thing and the TB coach is nearly unquestioned.  I've been a HC in four sports and this perspective seems to be more and more common.  While I consider myself an "ex expert," I've learned that most of the experts out there pretend to know a hell of lot more than they really know.  JMHO!

I don't think a travel ball coach ought to be telling a HS coach how to handle players during HS training/season.  I'd cut a freshman some slack though for how he communicated what his travel coach said--sounds like mainly a lack of social skills/awareness/.  

But if my kid's HS coach wanted Ps to continue throwing through the fall/winter, I'd be very, very concerned. The  PitchSmart guidelines (Dr. James Andrews) state that HS age players should:

Take at least 4 months off from competitive pitching every year, including at least 2-3 continuous months off from all overhead throwing

I mean no disrespect, but unless a HS coach is an orthopedic surgeon who has spent a few decades treating elite athletes, I think this recommendation ought to take precedence.  Nobody knows for certain how to avoid injury, but the above is the current gold standard.  Apologies if I have misunderstood something, but it sounds as if the OP doesn't want his Ps to take a break from overhead throwing.  I am not an expert, but that approach would be contrary to the current thinking on best practices.   

Man, I'm glad my kid doesn't play for some of the coaches in this thread. "I will say, though, that freshman would be in for a bit of a jolt if he came in with even a hint of trying to tell me how things are going to be.  I guarantee that would be "corrected" real quickly.  He would know instantly that my expectation is that he respectfully ask." If the kid wants to take his travel coaches advice, and not throw, you would get that "corrected"? It's his arm, his career, who would you be to tell him what to do outside of the designated season?

2019OF posted:

Man, I'm glad my kid doesn't play for some of the coaches in this thread. "I will say, though, that freshman would be in for a bit of a jolt if he came in with even a hint of trying to tell me how things are going to be.  I guarantee that would be "corrected" real quickly.  He would know instantly that my expectation is that he respectfully ask." If the kid wants to take his travel coaches advice, and not throw, you would get that "corrected"? It's his arm, his career, who would you be to tell him what to do outside of the designated season?

Well, I'd be one of them and you can go check out my history/resume.  It is all over this site.  I've been a moderator here for way over a decade.  You have done your research and have expert opinions.  Many of us have done the same.  You'll find differing opinions on just about everything baseball related.  Nolan Ryan doesn't believe in pitch counts at all.  So, there is that.  The best thing about being a parent, and I encourage you to do this, is that if you don't like what the HS Coach does, take your son off of the team.  I'm sure TB coaches are the end all know all and never abuse any arms.  

I'd guess that it is outside the TB Coach's season as well.  Then again, you are probably paying them thousands of dollars per year so ...

“if you don't like what the HS Coach does, take your son off of the team”

Man, that is such a terrible attitude, but, unfortunately, prevalent throughout.  My son has been treated exceptionally well, so I’ve got no bone to pick, but I’ve seen numerous examples where kids and families have been greatly impacted by this type of response.  In my HS, we had a stud of a QB, but coach’s son also played.  Coach played daddy ball, so stud had to reclass, but now has multiple P5 offers from Top 10 ranked schools.  Meanwhile our HS team has won a combined 5 games the last 2 years. Way to go coach!

Unfortunately, many families don’t have the means to go outside their public HS, so their dreams of playing HS ball are dashed because a coach takes the my-way or highway approach.  

I hate losing more than anyone, but this is HS ball, your livelihood isn’t dependent on W/L.  But for Johnyy, the health of his arm, an opportunity to play at the next level or get into a better college might.  Talk to the players, understand what their goals/concerns are before you say you must throw in November or risk not having a spot on my team.

CTbballDad posted:

“if you don't like what the HS Coach does, take your son off of the team”

Man, that is such a terrible attitude, but, unfortunately, prevalent throughout.  My son has been treated exceptionally well, so I’ve got no bone to pick, but I’ve seen numerous examples where kids and families have been greatly impacted by this type of response.  In my HS, we had a stud of a QB, but coach’s son also played.  Coach played daddy ball, so stud had to reclass, but now has multiple P5 offers from Top 10 ranked schools.  Meanwhile our HS team has won a combined 5 games the last 2 years. Way to go coach!

Unfortunately, many families don’t have the means to go outside their public HS, so their dreams of playing HS ball are dashed because a coach takes the my-way or highway approach.  

I hate losing more than anyone, but this is HS ball, your livelihood isn’t dependent on W/L.  But for Johnyy, the health of his arm, an opportunity to play at the next level or get into a better college might.  Talk to the players, understand what their goals/concerns are before you say you must throw in November or risk not having a spot on my team.

Why would that be "a terrible attitude?"   Responses like this always make me wonder about parents.  You want to complain about HS coaches and yet, when someone like me points out that you can remove your son, you want to then say that this is wrong.  Be a parent and do what you think is best for your child.  

I also wonder about people who complain about the "my way or the highway" coach and yet, in the same sentence say that they play daddy ball.  You have reasons and excuses.  They are vastly different.  Most often, though I admit that some long time members here have reason to complain about their HS coach, parent opt for the excuse when their child does not play as opposed to looking in a mirror.  

In your first paragraph, you mention that your son has been treated well and yet, you attack the coach for playing daddy ball.  Again, if your HS team isn't what you want, don't let your son play for it.  What is that a terrible attitude?  BTW, for every dream that was dashed by a HS Coach, there is one created.  It is a two headed coin.  I've had my fair share with more than a few playing major college ball and then professionally.  (21 total)  

Finally, I can't speak about your high school.  Many long time members here remember me posting about the expectations back in the day when I got my HC position.  I was told that either I won or I would be replaced.  I was given 3 years to make us a powerhouse.  I did it in one.  I came with a lot of my way or the highway.  I guess you consider it wrong that a coach actually knows more than others and gets after it.  I'd bet your coach does poorly because he can't make a stand and get after it due to other influences.  Shame on any school system that allows a coach to simply pick up a paycheck.  

Finally, can you cite any state championship level coach who isn't "my way or the highway?"  I'm betting you won't be able to list someone who ask everyone if what he is doing is alright.  Also, I don't know of any worthwhile coach who hasn't taken the steps to be knowledgeable about a player's health, weightlifting, hitting, fielding and pitching.  Still, they will be second guessed at every turn.  Again, if you don't like what your HS coach does with your son, be a parent and be man enough to take them off of the team.  It is a simple as that.  

Just to be clear, when I said we've been treated well, I meant that literally.  My response was as an impartial observer based on the comments I read.  Just wanted to point that out in case you were questioning my manhood.

Look, people have different perspectives, that should be understood.  Many coaches measure their success based on the number of trophies on their shelves.  Others, measure their success through the development of their players both on and off the field.  Hopefully, both can be achieved but I'm not sure that's the objective of everyone, especially from those who say if you don't like it, leave.

Anyone who says that HS baseball isn't all about winning needs to step back 20 years to when sports WERE about winning!   The "everyone plays" attitude today is making our kids so soft that I can't take it.  When I was coaching my son's teams 8-10 years ago it was starting.  My son and about half his friends wanted to win more than you know....but there were starting to be kids, and parents, who thought that winning was secondary.  Don't get me wrong, I wasn't a "win at all costs" youth coach, but the object of games is to win.....right?    The fact that the everyone plays attitude has now made it into HS sports makes me sick to my stomach.   HS sports are about winning for your friends, teammates and community....not making Little Johnny's parents happy because they can say that he is on the varsity team.   My son is in college....and it's even made it there.  Kids (and parents) come in thinking that just because the kid is on a college team that he is somehow entitled to see the field.  We had two kids from my son's class leave because of exactly that reason....and I am honest when I say it was almost more because of the parents than the kids themselves.

2019OF posted:

Man, I'm glad my kid doesn't play for some of the coaches in this thread. "I will say, though, that freshman would be in for a bit of a jolt if he came in with even a hint of trying to tell me how things are going to be.  I guarantee that would be "corrected" real quickly.  He would know instantly that my expectation is that he respectfully ask." If the kid wants to take his travel coaches advice, and not throw, you would get that "corrected"? It's his arm, his career, who would you be to tell him what to do outside of the designated season?

Well, you may want to read my entire post.  Your "take" from it would be entirely different.  In it, I also praised the benefits of travel and outside instruction and I stressed the importance of communication so that things can be properly managed and so that everyone can work together.  I acknowledged that there may be an arm care plan in place and that was totally fine.  So, how you turned that into implying I would make the kid throw and do so against the travel coach advice, I have no idea and that could not be further from the truth.  

Here are the facts... when we start winter conditioning, throwing is a significant element in the program.  But, because we hold arm care and health in such high regard, we make it a point to keep very close tabs on where each player is in the process.  If they haven't picked up a ball or have thrown very little since last season, they follow one plan (a very slow and steady progression).  If they have been throwing regularly but not excessively/not a lot of IP, they follow another.  If they are on shut down, yet another.  We fully support shut down but do make sure there is proper communication so that the shut down is done in a fashion that has them ramped back up in time for season.  Meanwhile, we do arm checks every single day with every single player.  We adjust each individual's plan accordingly and NEVER have them throw when they shouldn't be throwing.  With P's there is a very specific progression that must take place before they touch a mound and then another specific progression from that point.  In the many years that I coached HS, we sent a disproportionately high number of players to the next level and even a higher number of P's.  Almost to a man, the only arm issues came up with those who threw in excess with their travel teams and the parents wouldn't take advice when those red flags appeared.

Now, you were correct in one area... when myself and/or one of my coaches are supervising ANY practice, game, event, conditioning, etc., YES, the expectation and demand is that the adults in the room are in charge and supervising and the players are expected to respectfully adhere to the rules and guidelines in place.  IMO, this is what responsible parents, teachers, coaches, pastors, mentors, etc., do.  We feel this is a much more responsible way of running things than having the kids be in charge and dictate what will and won't happen (which, amazingly, I have actually seen at some places).  They are encouraged to speak up if there is a problem or if they have suggestions (which they often do, and it is a healthy learning, growing environment for everyone).  We pride ourselves on the successes of the program, the number of players who advanced both their skill level and their passion for the game enough that they chose to pursue playing at the next level, but MORE important to me was the pride in how they developed as very good young men.  I like to think that our structured environment where we would take an opportunity like the OP described and turned it into a learning lesson on how to properly communicate and respect authority was helpful along the way.  If you don't want your son to play for coaches like that, totally fine.  We're all different.  

BTW, 2019, I see by your profile that you are a home school family.  I will add that I have coached many kids that have made the transition from home schooling to public school.  I have found that there are typically tremendous qualities developed in kids who have gone that route.  But, at the same time, i see them also benefit from experiencing some of the necessarily different structure of the larger group setting.  It is often a significant adjustment at first.  I hope your son is able to experience the same benefits.

Buckeye 2015 posted:

Anyone who says that HS baseball isn't all about winning needs to step back 20 years to when sports WERE about winning!   The "everyone plays" attitude today is making our kids so soft that I can't take it.  When I was coaching my son's teams 8-10 years ago it was starting.  My son and about half his friends wanted to win more than you know....but there were starting to be kids, and parents, who thought that winning was secondary.  Don't get me wrong, I wasn't a "win at all costs" youth coach, but the object of games is to win.....right?    The fact that the everyone plays attitude has now made it into HS sports makes me sick to my stomach.   HS sports are about winning for your friends, teammates and community....not making Little Johnny's parents happy because they can say that he is on the varsity team.   My son is in college....and it's even made it there.  Kids (and parents) come in thinking that just because the kid is on a college team that he is somehow entitled to see the field.  We had two kids from my son's class leave because of exactly that reason....and I am honest when I say it was almost more because of the parents than the kids themselves.

LOL, Buckeye, I don't think kids have changed. My younger son (12U) played in a tournament a couple of weeks ago. They finished second, losing in the championship to a team that they had beaten during pool play. The tournament handed out medals for second place, and as we were walking back to the car, my son tried to throw the medal into the trash cans (I stopped him, telling him that it was disrespectful to the tournament to do that). We got home, he walked in the door, and threw it in the trash. My wife asked him why and he said "there's no way we should have lost to that team." 

Coach B25:  You mention that "Nolan Ryan doesn't believe in pitch counts at all."  That is true.  But 1) Ryan was a freak (in a good way) whose longevity was off the charts.  What worked for him won't necessarily work for mere mortals--especially not HS kids.  And 2) Ryan had a shot to try his methods with the Rangers.  Their staff didn't fare noticeably better than any other MLB team while he was with the organization.  Every MLB team wants to know how to keep Ps healthy.  There are literally millions of dollars at stake.  No one has a definitive answer yet.  But if you tell me you don't want your Ps to take any time off from overhead throwing, you are definitely out of step with current medical views on arm health.  

As for some of your other points:  Travel ball is subject to the rules of the marketplace--if I don't think a coach has my kid's best interests at heart, the boy can find another team.  That's not generally true for HS.  As a HS coach (especially if you are at a public HS), you have a mostly captive audience.  Even at a private school, most parents put academics and other factors first and would not move a kid just because of concerns about the baseball coach.

My son, like most kids, wants to play for and represent his school.  He likes and respects his HS coaches (as do I), and he has good friends among his teammates.  All of these statements also are true about my son's travel team.  Both are big, big parts of his life.  Both play a big role in his hopes to continuing playing in college.  And I expect both programs to work together to keep him healthy and help him develop.  His TB coach and his HS coach communicate and there has never been any friction.  I think that is great--I also think that every parent ought to expect that.  Coach, I assume you care about your players' health and development, not just about winning; and so I assume you also want to share information with TB coaches.  And I assume, despite some of your gruff talk here, that you do that pretty regularly because you want the best for your guys.  No?

At the end of the fall ball season, my son's TB coach told him he should shut down throwing completely until TB workouts start up this winter.  (Fwiw, TB coach also says that when HS workouts conflict with winter TB workouts, HS comes first.)  I could certainly imagine my kid saying to his HS coach "[TB coach] told me I shouldn't throw at all until December."  HS coach would not be threatened by this or view it as a challenge to his authority.  Fortunately my son's coaches are on the same page.  But if they weren't, I would not want either coach to put my teenage son in the middle of their conflict by telling him "do it my way or leave the team."  Why put the player in that position?  I would hope you would call the TB coach; then if that doesn't resolve things, maybe have a conversation with the player that included the parent.  In a HS player-HS coach relationship, one party is an adult, the other is still a kid.  For my part, I wouldn't expect either my son's HS or TB coach to give him an ultimatum--at least not until some conversations had occurred to try to resolve the conflicts.

My other kid played soccer.  Most top-tier travel soccer teams now tell their players that they definitely are not allowed to play HS soccer.  I think that is sad--kids shouldn't have to choose between exposure to college coaches in travel play and representing their school.  It's also bad for the HS game to lose many of the best players.  It's great that baseball doesn't face this problem (at least not yet).  But for kids to be able to play high school and travel ball, both sets of coaches have to be willing to work together to some extent.  And I don't think it's unreasonable for parents and players to expect that.

2019Dad posted:

Buckeye 2015 posted:

Anyone who says that HS baseball isn't all about winning needs to step back 20 years to when sports WERE about winning!   The "everyone plays" attitude today is making our kids so soft that I can't take it.  When I was coaching my son's teams 8-10 years ago it was starting.  My son and about half his friends wanted to win more than you know....

LOL, Buckeye, I don't think kids have changed. My younger son (12U) played in a tournament a couple of weeks ago. They finished second, losing in the championship to a team that they had beaten during pool play. The tournament handed out medals for second place, and as we were walking back to the car, my son tried to throw the medal into the trash cans (I stopped him, telling him that it was disrespectful to the tournament to do that). We got home, he walked in the door, and threw it in the trash. My wife asked him why and he said "there's no way we should have lost to that team." 

Every kid I ever coached wanted to win and didn't like to lose.  That's part of sports:  You can't learn to be a gracious winner (or loser) if you don't care.  It hurts to lose, but you shake hands and congratulate the guys who beat you.  Winning feels great, but you take time to acknowledge the team you beat.

My $0.02:  There is such a thing as trying to win even within a framework of rules that give every kid playing time.  When I coached Little League, every team faced the same requirements about getting every player in the game--and coaches tried to win every game while adhering to those rules.  (Not saying LL-type rules ought to apply everywhere.)  From what I have seen, most parents and players are fine so long as expectations are clearly calibrated up front.  

In my neck of the woods, HS varsity teams are very much about winning, and players understand that they may make the roster but not play.  JV teams are more about development--playing time isn't equal, but every kid on a roster can expect to see the field some (though not in every game).

I'm retiring from this thread, as Chico responded much more eloquently than I ever could.  Well done!

Agree with your thoughts on soccer and hope baseball never goes there.  When a good friend of mine was faced with that, his response to his son was: if you play for your HS, your friends and classmates will come watch.  If you go premier, mom and dad will be the only one's watching.  He went the HS but many dont.  In fact our girls team was #1 in the Nation a couple years ago, then they lost 14 players to premier the following year.

First, I the OP stated that his pitchers were not pitching.  Heck, it is open gym and so, I never cared what they did.  I had stuff available for all of them to do.  However, if any player showed and wanted to tell me what to do, that wouldn't fly.  To try to get this somewhat back on topic, I don't know the coach in the OP.  I do know the difference between someone who has a programs as opposed to having a team.  Back in the day, I bought all of the videos, ... of weight training, plyometrics, ... and then went and met many of those people so that I could be sure to do everything right.  WRT pitching, I did the same.  WRT hitting, many might consider me a guru although I don't like the term.  You can read my thoughts on hitting on other websites and I post under the handle, "cannonball."  (Long story)  I studied Epstein, Lau, Hudgens, Englishbey, Nyman, ...  I didn't want to coach a team.  I wanted to create a program.  We began plyos and weightlifting at 6 in the morning and alternated days.  We hit one day a week.  Then, the kids wanted more so, we set up real open gyms.  Before long, it evolved into 20+ hours a week in the off season.  All I wanted was to work hard and help my players.  Heck, a few colleges said that my program was more intense and had more facilities than they did.  I started coaching Legion ball in the summer.  Legion is what we had back then.  As I mentioned, I only had one player play real "TB."  That legion ball evolved into me coaching both the Senior and Junior Legion teams.  We turned things around and we won.  We won a lot.  Regardless of how much I worked, there were always critics.  Yes, I became a my way or the highway coach.  I didn't know and still don't know anyone who has put more into a program.  Currently, I am coaching softball.  I give lessons as well.  We have open gyms where the time is dictated by the AD.  I can go two times a week for 1 1/2 hour.  Even then parents are upset and want me do do more as I did with baseball.  I no longer control who gets in that gym.  One parent has already complained that I have open gyms when her daughter can't make it and so, no player should be able to go to open gyms.  I'll let the accolades I've earned, state championships, national rankings, the success of the players I have coached and the opinions in the community I work, live and coach in speak for what I do.

Oh, I wasn't challenging any single person's "manhood."  I simply stated that if you don't like what the HS coach does, take your child off of that team.  I guess that is being "gruff" and if so, I accept that.    

CoachB25 posted:

First, I the OP stated that his pitchers were not pitching.  Heck, it is open gym and so, I never cared what they did.  I had stuff available for all of them to do.  However, if any player showed and wanted to tell me what to do, that wouldn't fly.  To try to get this somewhat back on topic, I don't know the coach in the OP.  I do know the difference between someone who has a programs as opposed to having a team.  Back in the day, I bought all of the videos, ... of weight training, plyometrics, ... and then went and met many of those people so that I could be sure to do everything right.  WRT pitching, I did the same.  WRT hitting, many might consider my a guru although I don't like the term.  You can read my thoughts on hitting on other websites and I post under the handle, "cannonball."  (Long story)  I studied Epstein, Lau, Hudgens, Englishbey, Nyman, ...  I didn't want to coach a team.  I wanted to create a program.  We began plyos and weightlifting at 6 in the morning and alternated days.  We hit one day a week.  Then, the kids wanted more so, we set up real open gyms.  Before long, it evolved into 20+ hours a week in the off season.  All I wanted was to work hard and help my players.  Heck, a few colleges said that my program was more intense and had more facilities than they did.  I started coaching Legion ball in the summer.  Legion is what we had back then.  As I mentioned, I only had one player play real "TB."  That legion ball evolved into me coaching both the Senior and Junior Legion teams.  We turned things around and we won.  We won a lot.  Regardless of how much I worked, there were always critics.  Yes, I became a my way or the highway coach.  I didn't know and still don't know anyone who has put more into a program.  Currently, I am coaching softball.  I give lessons as well.  We have open gyms where the time is dictated by the AD.  I can go two times a week for 1 1/2 hour.  Even then parents are upset and want me do do more as I did with baseball.  I no longer control who gets in that gym.  One parent has already complained that I have open gyms when her daughter can't make it and so, no player should be able to go to open gyms.  I'll let the accolades I've earned, state championships, national rankings, the success of the players I have coached and the opinions in the community I work, live and coach in speak for what I do.

Oh, I wasn't challenging any single person's "manhood."  I simply stated that if you don't like what the HS coach does, take your child off of that team.  I guess that is being "gruff" and if so, I accept that.    

Never questioned your qualifications or experience, Coach.  But if my kid played for you, I'd want you to at least be open to the idea of trying to coexist with the coach of the TB team he plays for 5 months a year.  If a player told you that their other coach (TB or HS) had instructed them to do something, I hope you wouldn't just immediately say "no, do it my way or leave my team."    

As for the OP stating that "his pitchers were not pitching":  I assume you know that Dr. Andrews / PitchSmart recommend no overhead throwing, not just no pitching. As I said above, I'd be concerned about having my son work with a coach who rejected that advice, which is based on the current medical research.

I'm going to retire from this thread, b/c I said my piece at length above.  The current reality is that the best HS players generally play for two programs--and two coaches.  IMO, for the sake of those players' health and development--and just to be fair to kids caught between two authority figures--the adults who lead those teams are going to need to come to some basic mutual understandings.

I think the player just handled this wrong. He shouldn't have mentioned his travel coach, but he's most likely 14 and it happens. 

"Coach I threw a lot this fall and I was planning on shutting down for a little while. Is it ok if I don't throw? "

The kid has probably never been coached by his parents on how to approach coaches. Certain things you shouldn't say, things you shouldn't do (sitting down at practice, checking phone, etc). He'll know by the time the season is over. 

Chico, that was a common sense post.  However, you don't see the conflict.  It isn't simply about one particular player.  My concern would be that this same player, or similar players would allow someone else to determine what players in my program do.  I currently battle this or should say that did battle this.  I am now a AC.  I do all of the hitting.  Some parents talked to the HC and said that they pay a lot of money to an "expert" and they have TB so, they don't want anyone messing with their daughter's swing.  The HC agreed.  The rest of the team hits with me.  When the one young lady went 0-28 and the other was 0-23, they lost their positions.  Of course the problem was that I wasn't working with their daughters.  That is the lay of the land for a high school coach.  Damned if you do an damned if you don't.  Sure I'm betting most HS coaches try to accommodate players as best as they can.  The rub then is when a coach knows that the "expert (s)" doesn't know crap and yet, you are expected to give in to these parental demands.  In this case, production on the field proved the point.  

BTW, I don't view TB programs as adversarial but, lets tell the truth.  Many build themselves up by tearing HS coaches down.  Often that is laughable given that these coaches rarely have team practices and expect parents to purchase private lessons.  Just telling the truth.  

CoachB25 posted:

Chico, that was a common sense post.  However, you don't see the conflict.  It isn't simply about one particular player.  My concern would be that this same player, or similar players would allow someone else to determine what players in my program do.  I currently battle this or should say that did battle this.  I am now a AC.  I do all of the hitting.  Some parents talked to the HC and said that they pay a lot of money to an "expert" and they have TB so, they don't want anyone messing with their daughter's swing.  The HC agreed.  The rest of the team hits with me.  When the one young lady went 0-28 and the other was 0-23, they lost their positions.  Of course the problem was that I wasn't working with their daughters.  That is the lay of the land for a high school coach.  Damned if you do an damned if you don't.  Sure I'm betting most HS coaches try to accommodate players as best as they can.  The rub then is when a coach knows that the "expert (s)" doesn't know crap and yet, you are expected to give in to these parental demands.  In this case, production on the field proved the point.  

BTW, I don't view TB programs as adversarial but, lets tell the truth.  Many build themselves up by tearing HS coaches down.  Often that is laughable given that these coaches rarely have team practices and expect parents to purchase private lessons.  Just telling the truth.  

That all makes sense and was well said.  I'm fortunate that my son's TB coach has known his HS coach for years and there is a lot of mutual respect there.  (HS coach actually recommended the TB team.)  I can certainly see a situation where a HS (or TB) coach has to say "I don't care what your other coach says, you can't do that and play on my team."  I just hope that isn't the first response, and I hope players don't get put in the middle of a dispute between coaches if the adults involved can reasonably avoid it.  Kids ought to do what their coaches tell them.  Learning to deal with conflicting (or seemingly conflicting) advice is partly on the player.  But a kid shouldn't be put in an impossible position.  

It's good for every kid to learn to be diplomatic when faced with conflicting demands from authority figures.  (Goodness knows it will happen to them in the workplace, too.)  I have zero problem with a coach saying words to the effect of "I will try to work with your other coach, but you need to understand that on this team I set the rules."  But I wouldn't want the coach to tear a brand new orifice in a 16-year-old who isn't sufficiently tactful (the first time or two) about saying "my other coach told me to do it this way."  These are kids trying to do what they have been told--that's not a bad thing.

Saturday morning soapbox , feel free to add to the list  

1. Any kid should ask instead of “tell” any coach. Just respect 

2. Most kids spend more time training and playing with the HS coaches than with travel coaches. Find a good program and go there if possible considering academia as well. This most be done early before entering 9th grade. 

3. Most HS coaches are not in it for the money, most travel coaches are. 

4 . There are good and bad of each. 

5. Travel ball has changed baseball and many HS coaches refuse to to change with it. They need to work together to get the best result for both programs and the kid. 

6. Daddy ball does actually exist, even with good coaches and there is nothing you can do to change it  so avoid those circumstances if possible  

7. A coach gets a perception of your ability, the first time he sees you play, and it’s tough to change.  

8. Good players get punished in the off season, and non region games.  They will still play when the coach needs a “W”.

My thoughts or advice, if you will, are to focus on what the kid was telling you and not how he said it. It seems obvious that he was trying to communicate with you about an arm care plan (that apparently  only has two weeks left remaining).

You’ve already said that the conversation irritated you. Hey, maybe the kids delivery of the message wasn’t the best...or maybe it just wasn’t what you wanted to hear....but focus on the message. He was trying to tell you something. 

As a coach, what do you do with the information?

The objective is to get HS players arm ready for spring.   OP thinks kid might be doing a throwing program with the travel team.  Ask kid if that's the case and your objective is met.  If he isn't, ask when the shutdown ends and start him on one.   It's open gym now so OP really can't instruct anyway.  Plenty of time left.

Also let kid know his delivery earlier was poor and he needs to be more respectful of any coach in the future to avoid the doghouse or giving college recruiters a reason to scratch him off.

Most problems can be solved with communication.