See it to hit it.

Here is the score so far.

Greg Jefferies - solid MLB career and about $34 million in pay (and Mr. Jefferies - I am sure quite pleased with his son and all the fame and fortune.)

Doggie - nothing. Zip - nada.

Lets all listen to the doggie - shall we? LOL

quote:

....and BTW, I think this has been requested before,

Many times.....And, from some very influential baseball people, too....Not just from people like you, BoringObserver.....

People I teach don't care what you think about them, baseball, or anything else, actually.....If they did, they would have had you teach them......Make sense, BoringBabblerObserver?...

No - makes no sense at all.

But that is as expected.

Doggie,

Going back aways - but for a while there you were on the - "you dont really see what you think you see" thing.

Now - it seems like you want the hitters to see - but in a doggie way.

I am getting confused - should we see - or not see - or see a little bit. Or should we think we see - but not really see. Or perhaps we should make believe we see. Maybe we dont need to see at all - like cave bats - just use sonar sensing and give it a hack.

Elaborate please doggie!

LOL

quote:

I am getting confused

Nothing new, here, It's.....

"Maybe we dont need to see at all"

You do practice what you preach, Gamey...

quote:

just use sonar sensing and give it a hack.

Are you pushing a product, here?......Is this sonar sensing already in production?.....

Dear DilusionalSeeingEyeDoggie:

I do not profess to be an instructor. Far from it.

I can not hit a baseball with a 16' 2 X 12, and, have some doubt that I could, even with your doggie style instruction.

It has been suggested to me, frequently, that I need a special DOG to aid me in my travels.

I have no doubt that the influential people on your list have any interest in me and my dog instructing them on hitting.

The more elite in your profession provide references, that include former students that have reached the upper echelons of the baseball world, to users of their services.

"The more elite in your profession provide references,........"

Nah, they don't......The more elite stay busy by word of mouth and don't need to solicit business.......Nor, would they......

And, FutureObservation, don't confuse promoters with hitting instructors.....Two different animals, altogether.....

The dog don't hunt.

He can type - but he cant hunt.

LOL

WOW!!! Was gone for the weekend and came home to this. Thanks for all the responses. Was certainly an enlightening and enjoyable read.

Anyway, after wading through all this, and if you guys don't mind, I would like to summarize what I got out of some of the info that all of you have posted. Here goes:

hsballcoach.....has incorporated a number of drills into his hitting stations that utilize vision training.Would you share some of those drills with us? As I stated in my original post, I am looking for things to help my kids with this part of the hitting process.

txdad06.....feels that vision training is #1 in importance and has had success with recognition of colored tape balls in BP. Thanks!

swingbuster.....suggests that the "fear of getting hit" could interfere with "seeing it to hit it". And I agree, but what if that fear isn't present? What other things can we do to help our hitters "see it"?

bbscout.....offered example of Greg Jeffries' use of numbered balls and his success with it. Also said that seeing spin was very important (will have to agree with that statement), but improving your detection of the different types of spin comes from game experience and can't be taught by an instructor. Don't know whether to agree or disagree with this, but it leaves me feeling somewhat helpless when it comes to wanting to help my players.

FormerObserver.....seems to agree with "bbscout" about the importance of recognizing spin and joining forces with "itsinthegame" to bash BlueDog.
which is fine, but it doesn't seem to bother him too much.

BlueDog.....believes that pitch recognition of location and speed (depth perception vs focus?) is key and that it CAN and should be taught. Don't know whether to agree or disagree with this belief either, but could offer an opinion if I could experiment with it for a while on my players. Are you willing to share with us "HOW" to teach this concept?

Again, thanks for all the replies. Would still appreciate any other info that can be shared to help our players "see it to hit it".

Baseball Coach,

In additon to making the dog go fetch - (which I really enjoy from time to time - FYI - typically - he reads the latest issue of Collegiate Baseball Newspaper - then runs "like a dog" with the latest concept")
- here's an opinion:

Any drill that helps the hitter identify spin is useful.

It goes without saying that a hitter needs to also recognize location and speed. Thats like saying that
that humans need to breathe air and respirate. Its obvious and noone needs to hear that.

Recognizing spin - if your eyes are good enough - will add points to your BA. Anything you can do to aid in this effort is worth it for your players.

And the dog still cant hunt.
Write that down.

well i made a thread about this in the player forum, but would rather have some coach opinoins... i dont mean to hijack your thread or anything, but my topic has to do with vision (an open stance) so if u feel it dosnt belong here, let me know and i will edit my post...

hey to give you some background... I am 16, and a junior at Willamette highschool, a 4a school in oregon, and am playing at the varsity level. i am one of the better hitters in the system, with a .319 average last season, mostly a singles hitter.

my swing, in my opinoin, is really, i dont know, text book. i have been taught very well my whole life and have the mechanics down very well.

the only problem i have is somtimes i get my hands up too high and come down on the ball, usually grounding it to an infielder...

now my question is, i have noticed more and more players taking these new open stances, to see the ball better. i dont think i have a hard time seeing the ball, i have 20:15 vision (above average) and very rarily swing at a pitch and not make contact (foul it off or put it in play). however, i am always looking for ways to improve my game.

however when i think of the open stance, i am constantly reminded of Craig Council on the D'backs, and his Super high hands... not for nothing, but i dont want to look like a retard when i get up to the plate...

so do you think it would help to try and adapt the open stance this offseason, or should i stick with my regular swing? also, i would like to pull the ball for more power next season, as i get stronger and able to hit the ball out more consistently. i was wondering if that would give me any advantage that way.

thanks for all the help, any info is appreciated. you can contact me on AIM at BAURblades43

thanks again.

...with a knick, knack, paddy whack, give the DOG a bone.

quote:

It goes without saying that a hitter needs to also recognize location and speed

An excellent observation.

quote:

good hitters will pick up the rotation of sliders, curves and splits.

Another excellent observation.

I remember the boys on my son's 13 year old being taught to look for the spin and pitcher's hand position for the curve ball.

My observation.

quote:

MLB hitters rarely know what kind of pitch they just hit out of the park.....

quote:

Now, when they ask Reggie Jackson what pitch he hit out in a World Series game and he says he's not sure, he just hit it, well, that gets my attention and gets me to thinking and researching.....

A dog's observations.

BaseBallCoach:

Here's your questions.

quote:

How many of you emphasize with drills or mental cues this important element?

How much emphasis do you put on it?

How much time do you spend on it?

Do you feel you've seen a marked improvement?

The BlueDog's professional responses:

How many of you emphasize with drills or mental cues this important element?

The BlueDog does not. Only speed and location are important.

How much emphasis do you put on it?

The BlueDog does not. Only speed and location are important.


How much time do you spend on it?

The BlueDog does not spend time teaching to read spin, only location and speed.

Do you feel you've seen a marked improvement?

He has offered no indication of his students improvement.

Baseballcoach,
It seems as if you have touched off quite a discussion. I will give you a couple of drills that we have found useful.
1. We have a hitter with a bat stand and face his partner as if he were in the batter's box and his partner were the pitcher. The pitcher simulates the throwing motion and holds up 1, 2, or 3 fingers. The hitter swings and calls out the number of fingers. ( This promotes picking up the ball in the hand before it is released.) 2. We also have a hula hoop with 3 different colored wiffle balls strung through it. One player throws the ring into the air and calls a color and the partner attempts to catch the ball that is that color. This promotes tracking a moving object that is coming toward you.
3. We use a 1 inch diameter bat called a thunderstick and hit balls that are multicolored and the hitter calls out the color after he hits it. This helps the hitter train his eyes to focus quickly on a small part of a moving object.

We have found these to be benefitial in a number of areas. Many major league hitters are taught to determine the type of pitch by the hand placement before the release. Some teams have film rooms that show split second clips of pitchers at the release point so the hitters can train themselves to read this info. (Hence the finger drill) It is also imperative that a hitter recongnize spin on the ball. Hitters need to know what difference between the movement on a 2-seamer as opposed to a 4-seamer; they can't do that unless they can recognize the spin. It is also clear that spin recognition is important at the big league level or you would not see players experimenting with red tinted contacts that are used to help them pick up the spin of the ball.

for pitch reccognition (maby hand eye coordination too?) or what ever u wanna call it, we have a ring, similar to one that sombody would jugle, about a foot in diameter... on it there are 3 balls, glued in place in different increments along it... one is blue, one is red, and one is yellow.... your buddy tosses it to u and calls a color out once its in the air (partner stands about 5-10 feet away) and spins it so it rotates quickly...

he calls a color out, and the player needs to catch the ring on the colored ball...

i dont think it would be that hard to make, and its pretty cheap...

just some input...

xFLOPx

as for the stance thing, a stance is individual, what is comfortable to one is not to all, find the stance that is comfortable to you, then focus on the mechanics of hitting. Remember that having a textbook swing is only good if you can hit the ball. I have seen lots of players with "textbook" swings and seems like the majority of them take too long getting their bat into the hitting zone because they are too focused on mechanics.


The coaches and scouts are looking for results of the swing not the beauty of it.

Would you say that Vladamir Gurerro has a text book swing? Nice results though!

You also said that you don't strike out much, and are a singles hitter, this would lead me to believe that you are not swinging to hit the baseball hard, you are swinging not to miss. This is only a good approach when there are 2 strikes on you, or hit and run.

I am not a professional hitting coach like BDOG but I did sleep at a Holiday Inn Express once

xFLOPx,

You say you are one of the better hitters on the team, have had great instruction, but then say you're a singles hitter. Something isn't adding up...

are you a big kid? small kid? Unless you're a very small kid, if you've been taught right, you should be at least a line drive/gap hitter.

Sounds like you're a linear swinger (chopping down on the ball). I hope you're a leadoff guy and real fast!!!

Here's a big reason why hitters don't understand and use proper vision....

"I remember the boys on my son's 13 year old being taught to look for the spin and pitcher's hand position for the curve ball."

well, when i say better hitters, i mean by average.... im not real quick or anything... i hit in the 3, 4, 5 spots. i am pretty clutch, and real good when runners in scoring posistion cuz i know all i gotta do is get a base hit...

i like the idea of trying to swing harder my first 2 strikes, then go for contact with 2 on me.... never really thought of it that way... i usually dont work myself into those counts, hitting that first pitch fastball or second pitch change up.... i dont like to be up there long...

i think that covered everything... i think im gonna go the cages today or tomorow and try actually hitting harder...

my coaches last season really influenced that hitting the ball far is not about swinging hard, but proper mechanics.... well atleast thats what they told us...

hsballcoach and xFLOPx.....thanks for the drills. Coach, with your "finger drill" I'm going to assume that the pitcher is 60'6" and his arm speed simulates game conditions. Am I close?

itsinthegame.....you said, "Any drill that helps the hitter identify spin is useful". Well, that's the purpose of my original post....to find drills that might improve vision. Do you know of any?

FormerObserver.....your last response to me seemed more like another shot directed at BlueDog and that's fine. I understand. Like I said earlier, I don't post as much as I did a few years ago, but I'm still a regular "reader" and have read the banter between BlueDog, Teacherman, Rshard, and everyone else on here.

I don't care much for the way they present themselves on here sometimes either, but I do try to keep an open mind about what they have to say (when it's said in a constructive manner).

I know they go against the "norm" on many things, but it's a good thing people challenge what's considered normal or the learning curve would become greatly diminished.

Now don't get me wrong....they haven't convinced me yet either that they are the "all-knowing". I have asked for their input in the past on HOW, let me repeat, HOW to teach some of their concepts and was usually refused or ignored. Teacherman even once told me that he couldn't divulge a particular piece of info for free. Who knows, maybe they have the market cornered on all the new info.

BlueDog.....you said that speed and location are important components to "visual" hitting and that they COULD and should be taught. I don't know whether you can "hunt" or not, but I am serious when I say that I'm curious about HOW, yes I'll repeat it again, HOW we can improve our player's visual part of the hitting process. C'mon, what do you teach? What do you tell your students?

hey i remembered another drill... its not really for pitch identification, but really just putting the bat on some wicked benders and such... i did it with my hitting trainer when i was 10 or so, i think...

go out and get some of those GOOD wiffle balls... not the ones with holes all over, but the ones that have holes only on one side, ment to be used for 'serious' wiffle ball leagues (been to one... thats a whole diff thread man.. those games are CRAZY).

get about 2/3 to 1/3 of the regular distance to the play. the trick to getting these balls to spin is to make the ball rotate with the holes facing the same way the whole time.... get it? also you face the holes twards teh way u want them to break... you can make the ball go any direction, eaven up for those crazy submarine pitchers...

works real well for atleast fouling off the 0-2 dirty out pitch that ace pitcher has... i duno, im sure most of the vetrans have already heard of the drill or somthing similar.... o well.

Baseballcoach,

The color coded drills work well - usually with colored dots the size of a quarter.

Additionally - I like what Tony Abbatine (of Frozen Ropes) has worked on over the years. Some interesting stuff on eyesight training.

There is a bunch of other stuff out there - but the reality is - the more you recognize spin - the better hitter you will be.

The funniest part about this whole conversation is that we have the doggie talking about recognizing location. So I pose these questions:

How can you recognize location of a breaking ball without recognizing spin? How can you recognize location of a slider when you dont recognize spin and think it is a fastball. Just ludicrous silly nonsense - as always.

Regards

"......but the reality is - the more you recognize spin - the better hitter you will be."

No, Game, that's perception......The reality is just the opposite.....The better hitter you become, the more you will recognize spin.....If you don't understand the difference, then, you just don't get it......

quote:

BlueDog.....you said that speed and location are important components

They're not just important.......They are what recognizing the pitch is all about.....This is the very essence of hitting.....

Many hitters have poor technique, but, are good at pitch recognition and can hit a little.....Others have good technique and are poor at pitch recognition and can't hit a lick.....

You do not have to see the ball to hit.......You do have to see where the ball is going and at what speed to hit, though......

Blue, You are giving out some good advice and some double talk. Recognizing the speed and location are important. So is recognizing the spin on the ball and knowing what pitch is coming.The better you recognize the spin, the better hitter you will become, and with more game experience, you will recognize the spin better.
You have said that all that matters is speed and location, but as itsinthegame mentioned, if you can't recognize the spin of the slider or split, which move differently, you won't know where the location will be, and you will struggle to hit.
Your last sentence is nonsense. How can you see where the ball is going if you can't see it?

quote:

Originally posted by BlueDog:

quote:

BlueDog.....you said that speed and location are important components

They're not just important.......They are what recognizing the pitch is all about.....This is the very essence of hitting.....

Many hitters have poor technique, but, are good at pitch recognition and can hit a little.....Others have good technique and are poor at pitch recognition and can't hit a lick.....

You do not have to see the ball to hit.......You do have to see where the ball is going and at what speed to hit, though......

Are you into the see what you want to see garbage again?

Allright, BD, I'm convinced. My second son need some help.

Send me some information about your program, costs, location, etc.

Private is OK.

Bbscout, seeing the spin will not tell you location of the pitch......One splitter will drop more than another and the same with sliders....Each pitch is individual......Seeing spin is not the advantage you make it out to be......

Coaches and players usually talk with their egos.....It is nice to think a hitter has enough time to recognize all the stuff they think they can, but, in actuality it just isn't so.....Pitch recognition time is a very small window......Much smaller than most Coaches and players want to realize.........

As for Scouts, well, brainwashed is a term that comes to mind......

nonsense

The single best pitch recognition (vision) drill is BP. I have tried the colored balls, the numbered balls, the very small balls, etc., etc. etc. Still, nothing trains recognition better than seeing and swinging at thousands and thousands of baseballs. Drills, IMO are shortcuts and simply aren't as effective. I am not suggesting that drills aren't sometimes necessary, but if you have to resort to drills to try to simulate the actual act of hitting then you are at a disatvantage. You have to take the cuts. JMO.

Callaway,

We are talking about drills - in addition to however many "cuts" you wish to take.

We are not talking about drills as a replacement for BP.

There is a place for drills - just as there is a place for BP. Defining drills as "shortcuts" is also wrong IMO.

The same goes for defensive actions as well.
You take your practice - and you drill.
No shortcut - just additional hard work.

Its

I believe that drills have limitations and that was my point. Thank you for letting me know what the topic was about.

Like I said, JMO.

Callaway,
I agree. However, in some cases it is difficult to get enough repetitions in some specific areas. For example, my arm falls off after the 100th curve ball so my son doesn't get to see a whole lot of curves during BP. I also only typically throw the curve from one arm angle. Drills won't replace seeing enough curves but they could potentially help.

Having said that I just keep on throwing him curves in BP along with portions of BP where I just lob the ball to force him to stay back and hope that will be enough. I only wish I had the time and dedication to get in as much BP as you seem to with Boomer.

You're welcome.

CADad

I wasn't trying to negate the importance or necessity of drills. I understand time constraints. I don't have the arm endurance either so I recruit arms. Fortunately, I have a quality arm (brother) living with me now so that helps. I agree that different arm slots are also very important. It is amazing how easy my son can hit dingers off of my arm.

During the Dixie season we let our kids pitch to each other as much as possible. We would have the pitchers at the mound rotating between pitches to each batter. The batters would see 5 or 6 pitchers (incl. coaches) at each at bat allowing them to see different arm slots, speeds, angles, types of pitches etc. It was a great "drill" and forced our hitters to focus on each pitch. Our team hit very successfully during the season winning our conference and we fielded 6 All Stars (5 11yo's) from our team because of their sticks.

One final point. I am a huge advocate of tee work, soft toss and front toss, but this thread was about "vision" training. I firmly believe that the best training for "vision", "pitch recognition", etc. is live pitching or BP.

R.

Bluedog, we disagree on seeing spin. I think that having a hitter go stand in the bullpen to see various pitchers throw their bullpens is key to being able to work on recognition. We also take time to "spin a few" during BP for each hitter. This would include seeing curveball spin and slider spin. As long as you can get a hitter to "let the ball get to them," then they should have time so recognize spin and hit the ball where it is pitched. Remember, these pitches are off-speed. There are a few different vision drills out there. I don't use many of them and so... I posted something last year on vision drills and was ballyhooed for them. I received those drills from an eye doctor that has worked with professional teams. His name is Dr. Gary Meier and he is also a reference doctor for our local ABC affiliate. One drill that I will post again is the 12 foot rope with knots tied in it that is attached to a portion of the batting cage or fence. At some point, you can even color one of those knots red. According to one local JUCO coach, this is beneficial to seeing spin. I really don't know but the drill is to place the loose end of the rope on your nose. Quickly focus your eyes from the farthest know to the knot closest to the nose. This progress is supposed to help you see the ball better. Now we all know that you don't see the ball all of the way out of the hand to the plate. However, I do think this drill help you find the ball and hit it. This is just my opinion. Heck, my opinion and $6 will get you an extra value meal at Micky D's.

BTW, we also do the colored balls but it is hard to keep these balls hidden until they are throw. We throw from the front and behind one of those Jugs square nets that are made for jugs machines to throw through. Example, yellow is curve and so batter says curve and then can hit it. Problem with this drill is having the feeders throw the ball appropriately. Well, again, tonight I seem to ramble.

Bluedog, good to see you posting again. I do wonder what Name, persona, etc. your buddy will be using when he jumps into some of these discussions. JMHO!

Coach, we will just have to disagree on this one........Here's my problem with recognizing spin and the colored ball drills and all the other drills......I don't believe any of them are useful, JMO.....

I said before that I believe most Coaches don't realize how little time a hitter actually has for pitch recognition....It's a sub-conscious act, IMO......More of a brain issue than an eye issue......So, with that being said, you should be able to see why I don't believe rapid-eye movement theory is credible.....Again, this is my opinion........

Time for high level pitch recognition: I belive 1/10 of a second.....A real fast pitcher, even less time......

I want to know where and how fast.......And, I have 1/10 of a second to work with.....Maybe less.....

As always, I enjoy any discussion with you, Coach.....I know you sometimes get irritated with me, but, we know you're not alone in that department......

Blue Dog

Recognizing spin isnt valuable--- What page are you on ????

Trhit, do you believe you can recognize location, speed and spin in 1/10th of a second?.......Let's put it like it is....Do you think you can?

BD

I only post what I know-- see the numbers above--- I would not let one of my players near you for instruction--that is a fact

You are simply a genius in your own mind

Tell us about the results of your efforts-- you have not done that to date, even with all the requests

I know the results of what I have done-- very simple and pure-- one on one--the results speak for themselves.

All of you suedo genuises try to make it all so complicated-- the art of hitting ain't that difficult once you identify the players with the talent.

I ask again ==tell us of your results--curious minds want to know--anyone can spew idealogies on the web-- what have you done outside the "virtual world"?