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54 replies

Select? What do you get :|

WheelhouseWheelhouse100+ posts
Travel ball, select, all-star, whatever you call it there is a lot good, and bad, that goes along with having a child involved. The pressure can easily corrupt the experience for both the kid and his family. The experience can give a kid the boost in self confidence that is so hard, if not impossible, to get otherwise. Often the paid coaches havn't yet had kids and therefor don't understand them or their families. Dad's are better at this. Dad's however, are biased, as well they should be. Good and Bad. Good and Bad. Good and Bad. Lot's of risks to deal with.

But this is what the LL/Pony kid is up against when he gets to freshman tryouts.

It is typical for our local high schools to get 65 to 85 freshmen at tryouts. There are roughly 10 "select" programs in the city that break down as follows:

2 dominating teams (they each play roughly 100 games per year)
2 very good teams with smaller "less pubescent" (they don't shave yet) but very good players
6 teams that are basically wannabees and at time seem clueless

The top 4 four teams absolutely do not do "Daddy ball". The philosophy is that it is preferable for "Daddy" to take a hike to the moon during the season. Those teams all have paid HS or experienced adult coaches and generally cost ~$1,200 per year minimum including the fund raising commitment. These coaches do not get involved with parents. (Some of my worst BB parent experiences have come as a result of this dictum being corrupted, as will almost certainly happen given enough time.)

Then there are all of the various LL and Pony "In house" league teams that don't play many games.

This is my sons sixth year playing for a top select team. It will be his third team (new team last year). He has played for 4 state championships on 2 teams.

Next year at HIS high school tryouts there will be 10 players that will have played for at least 1 of the top four teams for at least 1 season that I know of. Some of these kids will have played in close to 600 games, many local, regional and national tournaments along with all of the uncounted hours of individual and team practice. My sons experience includes 2 3rd place CABA World Series fininshes, 1 CABA World Series 2nd place finish (beat Puerto Rico in round robin and lost to them in finals), recipient of the "Hats Omachi Mr. Hustle Award" and, many tournament championships. In other words, he has been a part of a lot of very good first hand baseball experience and culture to bring to what ever team he is part of in the future. (Another of the kids at tryouts next year also won the same Mr. Hustle award at the following years CABA WS.)

So hear are my questions. How is the kid who played 18 to 35 LL/Pony games each of the last six years going to compete for a spot in high school? Are the ugly parts of the "select" ball experience worth the grief, dollars and, stress on the family to give the kid a very real leg up on his competition?

Swing hard - just in case you hit it!
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T Texan1,000+ posts
Perhaps the first question is "Are there any more ugle parts in select than in rec?" Around here, the answer would be a resounding "no". In fact, rec provides a greater chance for ugliness & daddy ball than select.

Second, it is not merely a matter of the number of games. Playing in many games will not ensure development. One advantage normally provided by select is playing against tougher competition. This does help significantly.

Third, one of the most important factors in development is coaching. Has the player been taught proper mechanics, strategy, etc.? Playing in select does not guarantee this. In many areas, there is a higher percentage of good teaching coaches in select than in rec. But not necessarily.

Finally, the physical and mental abilities of the individual player also factor in. Playing in a certain league for six years doesn't guarantee that a boy's physical development will be conducive to making the HS team.

All of that said, the HS tryout situation is similar here. There will be 80 or so boys trying out for perhaps 6-12 spots on the JV team (no freshman team here & only one JV). I expect that all of the boys making the team will be from select backgrounds.

"Show me a guy who can't pitch inside and I'll show you a loser." Sandy Koufax
jemazjemaz1,000+ posts
Texan put it very well, and in the end what will come strongly into play is talent. "Select" teams can help develop that talent, but not necessarily. Plus, kids constantly change. Your baseball life is not predestined by what you did at 11, 12 or 13.

That said, probably most of the most talented players played "select", but I bet that is not true of all of them and, keep in mind, too, that some of those very best "select" players were only that good because they grew early. Some of the other kids will pass soar past them, to the chagrin and confusion of the parents of those who grew early.
TRhitTRhit10,000+ posts
Trying out for the HS team the kid with the talent and who shows it will make the team regardless of his "credentials"--provided the coach is doing what he should do--pick the best talent.

Many of the pre HS "select" teams do not teach--they just play-- thus players who were "good" going in are not any better coming out--and then factor in the growth factor-- some kids stop growing early while others dont--- there is no cut and dry formula.

In my mind the only time a "select" team really truly means anything is when the player reaches the stage in his HS career where he wants and needs the exposure that is needed to make the next step. In most cases his learning here comes before, during and after the games

Keep in mind one thing---if the player does not work hard on his own it matters not where he plays--he won't make it--the kids who make it are those with the drive to make themselves better

TRhit
CADadCADad5,000+ posts
Do you really think he'd be that much worse of a player if he hadn't played select? The talent is there or he wouldn't be playing with a top select team. On the other hand there are a few kids with as much talent who aren't playing on select teams who will also make the HS team and may even play ahead of some of the kids from the select team.
C CoachRobert100+ posts
My son plays on a 13U select team with a paid, professional coach. He is much, much better that he would have been if he had stayed with rec ball. After playing 80-100 games per year for the last 3 years he knows the rules, situations, mechanics, calls pitches from behind the plate, etc.

However, these are intangibles that will not show up on the coaches checklist for high school tryouts. They will most likely look at the main tools (arm, speed, glove, hit, hitting power). He is young for his grade and will probably rate only average in these.

There are some really good atheletes that stayed in rec ball, though, that will make the team based solely on their tools.

I just hope he gets the chance to get in there when these others are throwing to the wrong base, missing signs, can't bunt, can't hit opp field, using poor mechanics, etc.

Back to the question, "What do You Get?" We have a great time going to tourneys, world series, and even practice and I suspect Freshman ball will be a step down for him.
D DittozMember
Select? Rec? Travel?
I would tend to agree that there is a better level of play in travel ball than there is in a LL or Pony program, but to suggest that a teen coming out of LL would be less qualified than one out of travel may be pushing it.

I take my own son for example. Granted, he's the best kid player out there in my opinion, but I hear from many that he defends very well, and he currently bats .800+. The unfortunate side is we can't afford the $1000 and up that it would take to put him in a better situation. Not only the fiscal part of it, but the time investment. He has a softball sister who may be more of an athlete than he is. She deserves the same time and monetary input as he, and to allow him and not her is just plain wrong.

As a result, are we dooming our "above average" son when it comes to HS ball 3 years from now? I'd certainly hope that wouldn't be the case...
Last edited by Dittoz
M matadordad100+ posts
Travel or "Select" ball as it is referred to in here is in my opinion better pursued once a player reaches 15 or 16 years old.

Many, many kids that play in high school never played travel ball when they were young and still go on to great things. Once they reach 15-16 years old, drastic changes begin to happen for them. The "studs" of the younger ages many times get bypassed physically and mentally by the same players that were noticably behind them just a few short years before.

Being the head coach of a travel team myself it may seem strange that I am a proponent of waiting until the high school years before introducing a kid to the travel ball scene, but I truly believe that until such time, "what's the point?" Let them play with their friends, have a great time, learn the fundamentals and develop a passion for the game while developing at their own pace.

My own son never played travel ball until he was 17 years old, he played for 2 years, had fun, but really enjoyed his high school experience, and today he is a scholarship freshman in D-I at a Big West Conference school.
Few of his peers that spent years in travel ball at the young ages are even still in the game.

Just food for thought

Frank Coit
Head Coach
San Diego Prospects Baseball Club
CADadCADad5,000+ posts
Matadordad,
We just play a few local tournaments a year so I wouldn't really call it a travel team. The kids seem to enjoy playing together and that's enough for me. My son has told me that he'd prefer to play travel ball at 13 so we'll give it a shot. Will it make much difference with HS? Next year won't. However, since he'll be a 14yo 9th grader it may help him make the freshman team that year or provide a place to play if he doesn't make the team.
M matadordad100+ posts
CADad,

Good reasons for sure. I guess I am addressing the die hard travel ball folks that have their young kid chasing tournaments all over the place all the while spending a ton of money at the same time. Money that maybe could be used for a great vacation as a family, etc.

There is a time and place for serious players to jump full force into club ball in my opinion, but not until they are sophomores or juniors in high school.

Travel ball is really designed for 2 things, higher level of competition, and exposure. The young ones don't really need either yet, they just need to keep progressing, growing, maturing and having a ton of fun until these 2 things become important. There's a looooong list of 9,10,11 year old superstars that are mere mortals when they hit the high school scene, so why not let them get to that age and see where they are before spending all the extra money.

Just one coach's thoughts of course.
Last edited by matadordad
CallawayCallaway500+ posts
matadordad

All travel teams are not equal. My 10 year old is on a team that he loves. He has quality coaching and is learning very sound baseball fundamentals. The team is extremely competitive and while he is relatively new to this team, they are really starting to play well together. He very much enjoys playing with kids that are arguably the best in our state.

The money that I spend going to tournaments IS "vacation" for us because we enjoy this as much as anything else we could be doing. We do other things as well, but to be honest, we truly enjoy the quality time that we spend together "chasing" tournaments. We even pack the dogs!!

And yes, my son is a 10 year old "superstar" and you're right, he may never play an inning in high school. But who cares! He is having a great time right now and learning things that only competitive sports can teach him. So if he never does have the ability later he at least was able to enjoy and learn from it now. There are lessons in sports that can't be learned anywhere else. JMO.

Ross.
Last edited by Callaway
CM Coach May1,000+ posts
Playing select ball not only puts you up against better competition it allows you to play with better players and practice with better players. The benefits of better coaching are enormous as well as the experience that comes along with playing tourneys where every game is a championship game. The down side to me is when kids play so much that time is not taken to work on their individual needs as they get older. Long toss, plyos, weight training and running programs. To me there comes a time when they need to focus on their physical development and not just focus on winning another tourney. While playing select ball they are competing against kids their own age. When they enter High School they are going to be competing against kids that are 3 4 5 years older than they are. They may be more skilled and experienced than some of these kids but they will be overmatched by the sheer physical nature of the environment they are up against. Spend plenty of time developing yourself and not all your time driving up and down the roads trying to win games.
CallawayCallaway500+ posts
Coach MAy
quote:
The down side to me is when kids play so much that time is not taken to work on their individual needs as they get older. Long toss, plyos, weight training and running programs. To me there comes a time when they need to focus on their physical development and not just focus on winning another tourney.
I don't understand this part. Do you think that they aren't working on their physical development? Do you think that they aren't running? Do you honestly believe that the purpose of Travel ball is to win tournaments? Personally, I really don't care if they win or lose a tournament, the only reason my son plays this much is because he wants to improve his baseball skills... physically, mentally & emotionally. The fact that he can now play with kids that are at his level is making him improve even more.

No one can convince me that this environment will not improve his ability to play baseball. I would also suggest that he will be 3,4,5 years younger regardless of whether he plays travel ball or not. Further, he will certainly be more experienced then the other 9th grade competition competing against the "sheer physical nature of the environment..." whatever that means?

No disrespect to you, I just get tired of all the anti-travel rhetoric, because most of it is simply foolishness. For so many people to suggest that playing baseball at a higher level than Rec will somehow degrade your skill-level is absurd and I am getting tired of hearing it all the time. It's just nonsense.

quote:
Spend plenty of time developing yourself and not all your time driving up and down the roads trying to win games.
And this comment is so patronizing and condescending. Please, spare me.

R.
Last edited by Callaway
CM Coach May1,000+ posts
Im sorry if I offended you because obviously I did. My comment about spend plenty of your time developing and not traveling the roads to win a tournement was not meant to be condecending or patronizing at all. It was from experience. I coached AAU travel for several years with my youngest son. We won a couple of state titles numerous tourneys and finished in the top ten in the nation twice. As I stated in my post the benefits are huge by playing with and against this high level of competition. My point is if your competitive enough to travel to play you are trying to win. And you should be trying to win. Your certainly not trying to lose. From my experience as kids get older and closer to High School they need to concentrate more on their needs instead of a travel teams needs. Yes they will be more skilled than the average player they compete against in High School and have way more experience. But this will be offset by the physical difference of the much older kids. If they want to come into a program and be able to help the team at a younger age they need to focus on getting bigger and stronger and faster as well as playing. You obviously overlooked the positive things about travel ball that I posted and only focused on what you perceived to be an attack against travel ball. So be it.
CallawayCallaway500+ posts
Coach May
quote:
You obviously overlooked the positive things about travel ball that I posted and only focused on what you perceived to be an attack against travel ball. So be it.
No, actually I didn't, however I only responded to the points that I disagreed with. Sorry, but I didn't feel like typing it all out. I did agree with the "up-side" but I thought the average reader would be able to figure that out. I do not agree with your "down side" and I don't have to. So be it.
quote:
It was from experience. I coached AAU travel for several years with my youngest son. We won a couple of state titles numerous tourneys and finished in the top ten in the nation twice.
This is not the Coaches forum. This is the Pre-HS forum. I do not coach an AAU team. I will never coach any team because I don't get the fulfillment that you coaches do working with players that aren't my own. I am glad that there are coaches like you out there. I read your posts Coach May and I enjoy them. You sound like a great coach. It's not for me. I enjoy working with my sons and I don't have any interest working with anyone else's.

I believe that you would actually like me as a "player-parent" for two reasons. One, I have a very talented player. Two, I don't second guess the coach. I don't complain about playing time and I don't complain about anything. In fact, I don't have much to say to the coaches at all except the occasional "Good game Coach" because I really don't care about the little things that some parents care about. I am only interested in my son learning and enjoying the experience. I know how playing organized sports will benefit him. I know that the time he spends learning to be a leader and a teammate and learning how to be coached will reward him later in life. It is all up-side stuff. The "winning" is for the coaches and a few parents. It really means very little in the big scheme of things. What matters is that he is part of a team and all that is associated with that.
quote:
My point is if your competitive enough to travel to play you are trying to win. And you should be trying to win. Your certainly not trying to lose.

Now, you are saying that what I said was not true. I am offended by that. I'll say it again. I DO NOT care if his team wins or loses other than the satisfaction he may derive from it. It means nothing to me. As hard as this is for all you out there that do not understand the value of travel ball for Pre-HS kids, it does exist with very little down-side. It has been and is now a truly wonderful experience for my entire family. I highly recommend it even if all of the other nay-sayers disagree.

Do not be swayed away from trying it. It is light-years more rewarding then Rec ball for an above average player. You do not have to wait until your player is 16 or 17 as some suggest. How ridiculous. Obviously all of my responses are not directed to you coach May as you mentioned positive things but I am responding to others now as well.

JMO......................

R.
Last edited by Callaway
T Texan1,000+ posts
quote:
Originally posted by matadordad:
Travel ball is really designed for 2 things, higher level of competition, and exposure. The young ones don't really need either yet, they just need to keep progressing, growing, maturing and having a ton of fun until these 2 things become important. There's a looooong list of 9,10,11 year old superstars that are mere mortals when they hit the high school scene, so why not let them get to that age and see where they are before spending all the extra money.

Just one coach's thoughts of course.


Once the kids reach 10 or 11YO (and I don't believe in organized sports until 9YO), they will benefit from playing at higher levels of competition. I have seen enough (and experienced enough back in my day) to feel extremely confident with that assertion. Will they all be studs at 18? No, of course not. But they will be in the best position they could be - for whatever level of natural skill they possess - going into HS tryouts.

As another poster observed, the characterization of select parents is not justified. Ditto for the teams.

My son's team (and this was true of all the teams I coached in the past) will play a reasonable numbers of games this spring. Not a 100. And they will spend a great deal of time in practice. Many - granted, not all - select teams are focused on player development. Any tournaments they win are the result of good player development.

In this area, the story on who makes the HS team is much different than what it is in yours. Precious few kids that don't have select experience make the cut. I don't know of any non-select kids made the cut this year at the HS my son will attend.

Maybe it is because in these parts the kids who are serious enough, and talented enough, to make the team are are the kids who choose to play select.

Talent left undeveloped and unchallenged fades with time.
bkekcsbkekcs500+ posts
This is the start of my son's 2nd year in travel ball (we call them Comp Teams around here). He has had a blast. He did not play rec ball last year.

My pro comp team thoughts are 1) all the kids actually want to be there 2) the competition has been better and has helped his batting 3) no more kids sitting down in the outfield during play

My pro rec thoughts are 1) so much more convenient to get to 2) lots of area kids gather at the park and watch the games so he gets to play in front of his friends and neighbors

Like some of you, going to tournaments is like a family vacation for me and I would just as soon do that as a family. However a new little quirk came up just this week that I am trying to figure out how to deal with. Last year I was able to travel to all of the tournaments. This year with some of my co-workers deployed in Iraq and elsewhere it is more difficult for me to get those days off. The thing I learned this week is that my son does not want to travel where he would have to stay overnight without his mom or I going, something he did not have to face last year. Other parents and the coaches have offered to take him and most of them are people we know and trust. Has anyone else dealt with this? My son is 11.
Last edited by bkekcs
BK'sMOMBK'sMOM1,000+ posts
quote:
The thing I learned this week is that my son does not want to travel where he would have to stay overnight without his mom or I going, something he did not have to face last year. Other parents and the coaches have offered to take him and most of them are people we know and trust. Has anyone else dealt with this? My son is 11.



I know we encountered this and did not push this...or allow it till he was older. But, we DID NOT know these families at all....till summer would start....so we just made sure one of us, myself or dad, or even grandma went at times...

Each child is different....each team's parents are unique...it's a personal call I would believe...

Pam
Last edited by BK'sMOM
M matadordad100+ posts
Ross,

You make some valid points for your situation. I'm very happy to hear that your family is having a great time with your son's travel team. Of course there are exceptions to the rule, it looks like you may be part of one of the those, but from my experience most travel teams exist for winning tournaments for a sponsor, or for making money for the people running the team ie: monthly coaching fees, large one time for the season fees, dues, etc.

While there are teams out there that don't fit into this mold, they are in the minority sadly. Sounds like you may have found one that is in that minority, that's good to hear, fun for your son is the name of the game at his age.

The travel ball scene can be very rewarding or very heartbreaking depending on the situation and the goals of the team involved.

Good Luck to your son, sounds like he found a good, fun team to be a part of.
Last edited by matadordad
osage10osage1010+ posts
I have a son lhp a 12 year old, the question of playing select has come up in our house. We live in a rural community and playing on a select team would require a 90 mile round trip to every practice. we have decided for this year anyway to just play the local rec ball. he attended a very good spring camp a The university of Kansas and will attend a second camp in late June. Perhaps as he gets closer to high school we will try a summer of select ball
F FlippJ1,000+ posts
That's not true. I'm older than your oldest son is and there was traveling back when I played. I know because I played it. Smile

That doesn't really matter though. My reason for asking you that question is because your oldest son is now playing College baseball. He's proof that you can play at the higher levels without playing select/travel ball.

Let me be clear... I'm not against select/travel ball. I just believe players can play at high levels if they are good enough regardless of the competition they've played against.

I hope that makes sense.

Later!

Jason
F FlippJ1,000+ posts
quote:
Originally posted by Callaway:
Travel ball was not available to him.

You are uninformed Mr. Callaway. Select/Travel ball was available to your son. It was available to me when I played and it was available to my younger brother. My brother isn't much older than your oldest boy and he played in a neighboring city to White Bear.

quote:
And your point has nothing to do with mine...

I don't believe I said it did. I was trying to back up my stance that select/travel ball isn't necessary to play at a high level. Unless you don't consider your oldest son playing at a high level I'd say I backed it up quite nicely. Smile

quote:
At least you said something other than your normal agree

Not quite sure why this was necessary. It certainly has nothing to do with this discussion. I didn't know it was that easy to get under your skin. laugh

Later!

Jason
Last edited by FlippJ
CallawayCallaway500+ posts
Flippj

For the third time, it was not available to my son. It may have existed, but my son was not able to participate. Is that ok with you? He lived with a single-mom and couldn't afford it. Do I really need to spell it out? What about that do you not understand?

As far as making your "point" by referencing me I have no idea what you are talking about. I never indicated or even commented about whether a player could play HS baseball if they didn't play travel ball. I thought that was a stupid argument anyway. Good athletes are good athletes and good coaches will be able to sort them out.

My point is that kids don't have to wait until they are 16 or 17 to play travel ball and that they could get more out of it then "exposure". This is the Pre-HS forum and I don't want otherwise uninformed parents thinking the ridiculous nonsense that was being spewed by so many about travel ball in so many of these threads.

This thread is named "Select? What do you get?" What does that have to do with the "point" that you are trying to make in relation to my son? Did you read my posts? What on earth is your point?

Whatever it is, I am sure that I agree
Last edited by Callaway
F FlippJ1,000+ posts
quote:
Originally posted by Callaway:
He grew up in your backyard, White Bear Lake, MN. No travel ball available back then, but he did play Legion ball during the summers. He is amazed at what is available now and in the south for Boomer. He said that he wishes he was 10 again!
I'm supposed to know that dear old dad wasn't around by this post?
Last edited by FlippJ
CallawayCallaway500+ posts
Flippj

What is your point anyway, that good ball players can make the HS team if they don't play travel ball? Who doesn't know that? Good HS coaches can easily assess players without reading resumes. I think everyone already agrees with that. How profound.

I never said that travel ball didn't exist. I said that it wasn't available to my son. The only information that you "needed" to make your "brilliant" point was that my son didn't play travel ball and is now playing college ball. But instead you begin this liar/liar BS that was not in anyway germane to your "point".

But since you brought it up, the impact of travel ball for Pre-HS kids now vs. 10+ years ago is simply not the same. It has grown significantly and is much more "available", even to boys in my son's situation (which BTW is none of your business). So for you to suggest that travel ball had the same relevence in "your day" as it does today is foolish and inaccurate. It seems that you are trying to live in the past. Move on son!

So this time I agree NOT!
Last edited by Callaway
jemazjemaz1,000+ posts
Interesting thread.

I advocate baseball. Travel ball fills an important need where talented players committed to the game along with their families, also committed to the game, have a great alternative.

The danger is in overdoing it too young. I am not sure when that point is reached, but I worry about it.

The counter to that is that time missed is never time regained and most of these guys are NOT going to play beyond high school and even for those who do, the end becomes increaingly closer that the beginning. So, the point is, for nearly all these kids and families, the golden times are now. It is a shame to squander them.

At the same time, Little League also has something to offer. There is nothing in America like the Little League World Series until -- maybe -- the college world series and the tournament leading up to Williamsport puts all others to shame. I will never forget the Western Regionals after my middle son's team won the Arizona State championship. It is still mind-boggling what a specatle that event was.

And what is better than being a star or even simply getting a chance to compete in from of your family, friends and neighbors when all are interested int he result of the next game. Travel ball has nothing to compete with that.

The bottom line is that it is all baseball, and what is there not to love?
F FlippJ1,000+ posts
jemaz,

Was your son a member of that team from Chandler? That was a fun team to watch. I remember reading articles in a few AZ papers and it sounded like there was quite a buzz down there about that team. What a great experience for those boys. Memories they'll never forget.
quote:
The danger is in overdoing it too young. I am not sure when that point is reached, but I worry about it.
I worry too. The sad thing about many of those "overdoing it" cases it that it's more about the father feeding his own ego than it is about what's best for his "superstar".

Good post. I agree

Jason
CallawayCallaway500+ posts
jemaz
quote:
The danger is in overdoing it too young. I am not sure when that point is reached, but I worry about it.
I agree. My son is playing both rec and travel and I watch closely for any signs of burnout. One thing that makes rec more interesting for him is that he plays other positions than his "regular" FB and P. He has been able to play quite a bit of SS and tonight he will be catching after he pitches a couple of innings. These are positions that he would otherwise not see much of as a lefty on the more competitve teams. It also gives him a chance to learn the other roles and their responsibilities and he enjoys it a lot.

I have always sung the praises of travel ball and have had little interest in rec ball, but there is a place for it on many levels. For my son it is a place where he can be a little less serious. It was funny to see his sheepish grin when he made a good stop and then an errant throw over to FB. Oops! The shoe is on the other foot now little man!
Last edited by Callaway
M matadordad100+ posts
Jemaz,

I fully agree with you about Little League. It does have a lot to offer, is well organized and run by quality people, that has been my point about where the young ones can play, personally I don't see how travel ball at 9-10 is better than the Little League experience, but... maybe that's just me.

Little League doesn't get much credit anymore with all of these travel teams running around. Playing with your friends and neighbors in your neighborhood atmosphere is great fun for young kids, rivalries, both between teams and players are a big part of it, too bad so many people are moving in other directions.

Of course each situation is different for each family, but overall I'm not a big fan of travel teams for these young kids, just my opinion I guess.
jemazjemaz1,000+ posts
Flipp:

He was on the North Scottsdale team in 1999. Those guys are juniors now and gave it a pretty good run of making it to Williamsport before losing a game after they led 7-0. The previous season, McCormick Ranch Little League made it to San Bernardino, and what is significant about that is the two leagues feed into the same high school, which won a state championship last year and has another good shot this year.

I will say this, too, both of those teams would have been pretty tough competition for most travel teams.

It was all a thrill that our family will never forget.
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