quote:Now that is incredible. Talk about a dynasty. What a blast for your boy to be part of that.
Originally posted by jemaz:
The previous season, McCormick Ranch Little League made it to San Bernardino, and what is significant about that is the two leagues feed into the same high school, which won a state championship last year and has another good shot this year.
My son is 14 and starting catcher on the varsity team. He played select ball from the age of 9. In Louisiana, a varsity player cannot play on an idepentdent team during the season, not even tryout. I understand some state atheletic associations permit this. My 15 years old daughter plays select s****r, as well. My point is that those high school teams comprised of select players usually dominate distict and playoff competition in both sports. Now there is talk in Louisisana of limiting the number of select players on any high school team at any given time, depending on the sport. I tend to agree with this, as it would level competition. The basic premise for regulation to improve team parity is that social and economic disparity is directlcy related to high school atheletic competition, especially in baseball and s****r, where private and pulbic high school students in high economic districts with low diversiity, will more likely be able to particpate and do participate more in select sports, by far, than those in econimically disadvantaged districts. In my opinion, high school competition should be fair and the number of select baseball or s****r games in which a student has played outside the regular season should be limited or the number of players participating as such should be limited. If all you're after is high level competition than your son or daughter should not play high school sports at all.
RecBall is dependant on where you are at. We played travel ball where we moved from then went to Little League here. It was terrible. The politics and the bad play. My 10 year old was walked intentionally for three weeks straight every time he came to the plate because he might hit the big one. He didn't hit a home run all season for them. We played tournament ball last summer after little league and they loved it. They loved playing with kids that wanted to be there and knew the game. So, it depends on the level of recball we are talking about.
rec ball in our area is very political..ie who gets to coach.. it is frustrating to see talented players playing with 1st year players at the 12 and under level all for the sake of making sure everyone participates. we travel to a nearby town to play their "rec team" and get hammered. each year a draft is held to ensure that there are no stacked teams.
We have two very strong LL programs in our city, each w 600+ players. Interestingly, the majority of top players in the city play LL, so each team has several players that are strong, challenging competitors. Less skilled 12's can restrict to Minors. Quite a few of the most skilled 11's and 12's also play on club teams for tourneys and Sunday club leagues, although they scale back these activities and juggle during LL season. With strict LL rules regarding simultaneous All Star/Club participation, I believe a few 11 Yr players will choose to migrate to Club 100% next year in order to dedicate to going to Cooperstown or other top tourneys.
wheelhouse..i'll tell you how the non-select kid will compete.
* won't be a primadona that needs all innings
* will know his role and be able to accept it
* will compete without regard to parents disdain
* will be coachable, not one-dimentional
* will have an attitude of TEAM, not I, ME.
The select kids will have advantages to some degree, but you will see that as a kid matures, they grow in different ways. Many if not most of your HS juniors and seniors are names that many say" who is that"? "Where did he play"?
Of the 9 starters on our 24 local HS teams, at least half NEVER played select baseball. They do there job, win there coaches confidence, and play for the team.
You will be surprised.
* won't be a primadona that needs all innings
* will know his role and be able to accept it
* will compete without regard to parents disdain
* will be coachable, not one-dimentional
* will have an attitude of TEAM, not I, ME.
The select kids will have advantages to some degree, but you will see that as a kid matures, they grow in different ways. Many if not most of your HS juniors and seniors are names that many say" who is that"? "Where did he play"?
Of the 9 starters on our 24 local HS teams, at least half NEVER played select baseball. They do there job, win there coaches confidence, and play for the team.
You will be surprised.
Starzz...
excellent post.
The "sellect" culture has really created, or given the appearance of creating, halves and halve nots with respect to kids who play ball.
Is this how select players are viewed? You paint the select player and his family in rather harsh negative tones. Who feels this way about them? What is your experience?
excellent post.
The "sellect" culture has really created, or given the appearance of creating, halves and halve nots with respect to kids who play ball.
Is this how select players are viewed? You paint the select player and his family in rather harsh negative tones. Who feels this way about them? What is your experience?
Wheelhouse...As the coaching ranks thin, so does the teaching. Along with not teaching comes the have's and the have not's...or the natural athletic player, vs the not so athletic player. As kids go (12U), so goes their skill levels. Not necessarily baseball skills, but overall skills of agility, speed, arm and catching.
The separation comes when they are given the opportunity to compete. It is very clear early on that coaches choose by ability and not by future potential seen...thus comes the experience of a COACH, not a Dad or a volunteer out to win.
The less experienced coach doesn't look for character or make-up, he usually hasn't seen most of the kids play and bases his decisions on sight seen, not chemistry. Building a TEAM of good kids is by far more valuable to the future growth of the Boy to Man than building a group of individuals that are about themselves and me/I.
Select players, IMHO, with the wrong direction, will more times than not be unsuccessful and not stay together. They will move from team to team and continue this due to a lack of teaching the proprer roles of a team and the chemistry necessary to be successful. It will be about playing time and such. Average level players will appreciate their opportunties and thrive in the Team environment because they are a part of something bigger than themselves and have been taught this from a young age.
The debate will always be there...I will take 12-15 average players with a goal to get better, play .500-.600 ball the first year and then look out once they know they can compete with the Elite.
That is when Fun creates winning and develops pride and teamwork towards a common goal.
Have a good day!
The separation comes when they are given the opportunity to compete. It is very clear early on that coaches choose by ability and not by future potential seen...thus comes the experience of a COACH, not a Dad or a volunteer out to win.
The less experienced coach doesn't look for character or make-up, he usually hasn't seen most of the kids play and bases his decisions on sight seen, not chemistry. Building a TEAM of good kids is by far more valuable to the future growth of the Boy to Man than building a group of individuals that are about themselves and me/I.
Select players, IMHO, with the wrong direction, will more times than not be unsuccessful and not stay together. They will move from team to team and continue this due to a lack of teaching the proprer roles of a team and the chemistry necessary to be successful. It will be about playing time and such. Average level players will appreciate their opportunties and thrive in the Team environment because they are a part of something bigger than themselves and have been taught this from a young age.
The debate will always be there...I will take 12-15 average players with a goal to get better, play .500-.600 ball the first year and then look out once they know they can compete with the Elite.
That is when Fun creates winning and develops pride and teamwork towards a common goal.
Have a good day!
Starzz,
Are you a coach? If so, what level. ****, I like your philosophy. Do you mean it or, are you just saying it because it sounds good.
"I'm not looking for the best players. I'm looking for the right players." - Herb Brooks
I'm a Dad, not a coach, who was anxious to get away from daddy ball and, find a better experience for my son once he was old enough to participate. My son has been select since he was 9 and is now 14 years old. The down side for my son, until this year, has been playing only one position per year rather than a broader experience. I know that the parents of teammates past would say that I had nothing to complain about, after all, he was playing. I feel that keyholing kids this young is not providing the best basball education for them. It angers me when I hear a coach use "I'm just trying to win" as his justification (excuse) to cut the conversation short. I hear coaches use this as their excuse for everything when dealing with parent concerns.
A little background: in five years my son has one entire year at each position of SS, SB, 2 years CF and, one year out with a back injury from wrestling. Coaches have all been paid. Either college players (kids themselves) or high school assistants. "Our" teams have done very well nationally and have a 250 record against Puerto Rico in his 9, 10, and 11 year old years. He has had great experiences that he will remember forever, but, it could have been much better without being any less competitive and perhaps they even would have beaten Puerto Rico in the nationals those years.
The first reason is that his coaches don't have kids of their own and grossly don't understand that there is a huge difference in the emotional needs and development of a pre-adolecent child and a high school kid. They seem to think that everybody is guarenteed to have fun if they win. After all, my sons 9, 10, 11 year old coach said this to me, "winners win and, losers lose - period". I believe, that variety of experience is far more important for them developmentally then reps at any single position. Developmentally, this is how kids this age imprint the feel and depth of understanding of baseball that they will need to draw on when they are older if they continue to play.
Secondly, the 'one player - one position' approach guarentees problems between families, players and coaches, greatly dimishing the experience for all. People like to talk about teaching their kids to have fun while they play but, and I say this through experience, that it is not possible to do when the parents of a starter become friends with the parents of a kid who, for whatever reason (generally political with this talent level), mostly sits on the bench. The kids seem able to look past this but the relationship between two such players is eventually doomed once the parents become upset with eachother and, who knows what the kids say to eachother when adults aren't around. I don't understand coaches with this mentality since even someone with average intelligence can predict the anger, resentment and discontent that travels with these teams and the predictable impact on team unity it has. Fortunately, the teams that we have been a part of in the past did not have a stronly bullying type player or it could have really gotten unpleasant.
The team we were a part of for the first three years was the dominant team in our region. They had swagger. The organization had rules which, were allowed to be broken to accomodate the manipulations by some parents on the team. Some parents didn't like the example this set but choose not to say anything thereby becoming silent participants. (Those with kids who were not seeing much playing time were afraid to say anything for fear of making it worse. After all, their kid was on the team and they didn't want him to be cut.) This particular team caused the withdrawal of the long-term corporate sponsor ($85,000 to $100,000 per year) for the whole organization (9U, 10U, 11U, 12U, 13U, 14U). The sponsor had had enough and no longer felt that the baseball club was positively representing either their corporate image or values locally or nationally. Fortunately, my son was "cut" the year prior to this.
This isn't rocket science, folks. Just common courtesy, and thoughtful behaviour. Think of how your behavior in the group will affect others. What you do will come back to you one way or the other. Behind the scene manipulation of the coach or system WILL have a effect on your child. Maybe it will get them something in the beginning but in the end it will almost certainly be negative. To often I have seen parents setting a great example for their children in how to be self-centered and manipulative to get what you want.
Sometimes you have to take a stand but, do it for the kid who isn't getting to play. This is select baseball, presumably each kid has a certain level of talent that is noticable.
Are you a coach? If so, what level. ****, I like your philosophy. Do you mean it or, are you just saying it because it sounds good.
"I'm not looking for the best players. I'm looking for the right players." - Herb Brooks
I'm a Dad, not a coach, who was anxious to get away from daddy ball and, find a better experience for my son once he was old enough to participate. My son has been select since he was 9 and is now 14 years old. The down side for my son, until this year, has been playing only one position per year rather than a broader experience. I know that the parents of teammates past would say that I had nothing to complain about, after all, he was playing. I feel that keyholing kids this young is not providing the best basball education for them. It angers me when I hear a coach use "I'm just trying to win" as his justification (excuse) to cut the conversation short. I hear coaches use this as their excuse for everything when dealing with parent concerns.
A little background: in five years my son has one entire year at each position of SS, SB, 2 years CF and, one year out with a back injury from wrestling. Coaches have all been paid. Either college players (kids themselves) or high school assistants. "Our" teams have done very well nationally and have a 250 record against Puerto Rico in his 9, 10, and 11 year old years. He has had great experiences that he will remember forever, but, it could have been much better without being any less competitive and perhaps they even would have beaten Puerto Rico in the nationals those years.
The first reason is that his coaches don't have kids of their own and grossly don't understand that there is a huge difference in the emotional needs and development of a pre-adolecent child and a high school kid. They seem to think that everybody is guarenteed to have fun if they win. After all, my sons 9, 10, 11 year old coach said this to me, "winners win and, losers lose - period". I believe, that variety of experience is far more important for them developmentally then reps at any single position. Developmentally, this is how kids this age imprint the feel and depth of understanding of baseball that they will need to draw on when they are older if they continue to play.
Secondly, the 'one player - one position' approach guarentees problems between families, players and coaches, greatly dimishing the experience for all. People like to talk about teaching their kids to have fun while they play but, and I say this through experience, that it is not possible to do when the parents of a starter become friends with the parents of a kid who, for whatever reason (generally political with this talent level), mostly sits on the bench. The kids seem able to look past this but the relationship between two such players is eventually doomed once the parents become upset with eachother and, who knows what the kids say to eachother when adults aren't around. I don't understand coaches with this mentality since even someone with average intelligence can predict the anger, resentment and discontent that travels with these teams and the predictable impact on team unity it has. Fortunately, the teams that we have been a part of in the past did not have a stronly bullying type player or it could have really gotten unpleasant.
The team we were a part of for the first three years was the dominant team in our region. They had swagger. The organization had rules which, were allowed to be broken to accomodate the manipulations by some parents on the team. Some parents didn't like the example this set but choose not to say anything thereby becoming silent participants. (Those with kids who were not seeing much playing time were afraid to say anything for fear of making it worse. After all, their kid was on the team and they didn't want him to be cut.) This particular team caused the withdrawal of the long-term corporate sponsor ($85,000 to $100,000 per year) for the whole organization (9U, 10U, 11U, 12U, 13U, 14U). The sponsor had had enough and no longer felt that the baseball club was positively representing either their corporate image or values locally or nationally. Fortunately, my son was "cut" the year prior to this.
This isn't rocket science, folks. Just common courtesy, and thoughtful behaviour. Think of how your behavior in the group will affect others. What you do will come back to you one way or the other. Behind the scene manipulation of the coach or system WILL have a effect on your child. Maybe it will get them something in the beginning but in the end it will almost certainly be negative. To often I have seen parents setting a great example for their children in how to be self-centered and manipulative to get what you want.
Sometimes you have to take a stand but, do it for the kid who isn't getting to play. This is select baseball, presumably each kid has a certain level of talent that is noticable.
What we are all buying into is the notion that we want to give our children an edge on the competion for roster positions in high school, by using our repective financial resources to fund select baseball programs. The fact that a select program would have coorperate sponsorship to the level of $85,000 to $100,000 per year is rediculous, to me. There should be high school eligibilty sanctions for student athelets participting in such programs. If we don't all watch what we are doing, and police ourselves, the high school atheletic associations will do it for us and the results will be displeasing to many.
Wheelhouse, I mean what I say. I coach in the fall when I have more time and a chance to work with kids. It is not paid and not about doing anything but keeping them in shape and out of trouble. We play a few nice tournments in Calif and Az and travel to play a few JC teams within 100 miles. The kids love to play and their parents love to watch them.
They are now Juniors and all play for their HS teams. I wanted to keep them playing and the pitchers in a nice routine up until Thansgiving. This year most of them will play for the local Scout team and I can watch them play under very positive coaches and scouts of the game.
I love the game and help at any level I can. Youth will be served and that is the goal for them to play hard and for each other. The moment it goes beyond that, the player has to leave....fortunately, I have only had to do that twice in many years.
I have a belief...if you choose the parents carefully, you more often than not, get the kid you want.
Good luck to your son!
They are now Juniors and all play for their HS teams. I wanted to keep them playing and the pitchers in a nice routine up until Thansgiving. This year most of them will play for the local Scout team and I can watch them play under very positive coaches and scouts of the game.
I love the game and help at any level I can. Youth will be served and that is the goal for them to play hard and for each other. The moment it goes beyond that, the player has to leave....fortunately, I have only had to do that twice in many years.
I have a belief...if you choose the parents carefully, you more often than not, get the kid you want.
Good luck to your son!
Squarepeg,
Amazing isn't it. Not many families involved in select sports take into account the amount of money it takes to run six teams. Most don't have a clue nor do they have any interest, beyond what position their kid gets to play, what it takes to create and run one of these organizations.
12 paid coaches
paid head coach
1 paid staff to run the organization
rent on indoor practice facility (Jan Feb when its cold)
rent of baseball fields
insurance
professional fees
unforms
umpires
tournament fees
newspaper adds for tryouts
offsetting these expenses would be ~$15,000 in fees from the player's families plus what was made off of running a World Series Tournament. The sponsorship was so generous that the player fee was only $180 my sons 9U year with no fund raising requirement. Needless to say, local competition for roster spots on this team was intense. The financial generosity of the sponsor was also the reason why this team was so dominant. There was no reason beyond the sponsors generosity to support the team since his son had left the program years ago, played in the CWS and made it all the way to AA ball the last I heard. Some parents just couldn't accept the fact that just because their kid played on the team it doesn't make it their team to do with as they wish. Organizations have rules for a reason.
Sorry about the rant. I think that you are right. Select baseball, from a parent's perspective has become the 'AAA minor league' for high school baseball while LL and Pony and other in-house stuff is AA and below. However, you are not likely to hear any complaints from high school coaches about this. There are many larger high school sports issues to fry. We struggle in our area with open enrollment, meant to allow students the oppotunity to go to a high school outside of their district for academic reasons only, but is unofficially used by boosters to 'recruite athletes to their high school which was not the intent of the state law.
Ask yourself why we are so surprised, given the lengths that we will go to get our kid a leg up, when we hear about all of the steriod use in high school. You know, all of this is crazy from a child development point of view.
I am fairly conflicted about this until I watch my son play. He really does love it and I can't see where it has done him any real harm. In fact he has had to learn, amoung many other things, to deal with being cut from a team that was truely a part of his identity in his mind. He got pissed, joined another team and won his fourth consecutive state title. The only 14U in the state with this distinction. That was a learning experience I could not buy for any price.
Amazing isn't it. Not many families involved in select sports take into account the amount of money it takes to run six teams. Most don't have a clue nor do they have any interest, beyond what position their kid gets to play, what it takes to create and run one of these organizations.
12 paid coaches
paid head coach
1 paid staff to run the organization
rent on indoor practice facility (Jan Feb when its cold)
rent of baseball fields
insurance
professional fees
unforms
umpires
tournament fees
newspaper adds for tryouts
offsetting these expenses would be ~$15,000 in fees from the player's families plus what was made off of running a World Series Tournament. The sponsorship was so generous that the player fee was only $180 my sons 9U year with no fund raising requirement. Needless to say, local competition for roster spots on this team was intense. The financial generosity of the sponsor was also the reason why this team was so dominant. There was no reason beyond the sponsors generosity to support the team since his son had left the program years ago, played in the CWS and made it all the way to AA ball the last I heard. Some parents just couldn't accept the fact that just because their kid played on the team it doesn't make it their team to do with as they wish. Organizations have rules for a reason.
Sorry about the rant. I think that you are right. Select baseball, from a parent's perspective has become the 'AAA minor league' for high school baseball while LL and Pony and other in-house stuff is AA and below. However, you are not likely to hear any complaints from high school coaches about this. There are many larger high school sports issues to fry. We struggle in our area with open enrollment, meant to allow students the oppotunity to go to a high school outside of their district for academic reasons only, but is unofficially used by boosters to 'recruite athletes to their high school which was not the intent of the state law.
Ask yourself why we are so surprised, given the lengths that we will go to get our kid a leg up, when we hear about all of the steriod use in high school. You know, all of this is crazy from a child development point of view.
I am fairly conflicted about this until I watch my son play. He really does love it and I can't see where it has done him any real harm. In fact he has had to learn, amoung many other things, to deal with being cut from a team that was truely a part of his identity in his mind. He got pissed, joined another team and won his fourth consecutive state title. The only 14U in the state with this distinction. That was a learning experience I could not buy for any price.
As a new member to the forum with a 13 year old son that plays in both LL and Super Series , I agree with most everything that has been said above. No one size fits all answer applies to the original question. However, I personally feel my son is better prepared for the challeges that High school baseball will present after playing nearly year round baseball in some very good and not so good programs.
Perhaps one of the most importatant life lessons we have had from our tournament teams is that my wife and I learning our role as parents in supporting the team, not just looking out for our own son with our justified biases. I believe if my son makes it to the High school team, the coaching staff will not have any problems with us as parents. We have learned the importance of keeping our mouthes shut, long walks, hard work in between games and encouraging our son to earn his spot in the line up through proving it on the field.
Perhaps one of the most importatant life lessons we have had from our tournament teams is that my wife and I learning our role as parents in supporting the team, not just looking out for our own son with our justified biases. I believe if my son makes it to the High school team, the coaching staff will not have any problems with us as parents. We have learned the importance of keeping our mouthes shut, long walks, hard work in between games and encouraging our son to earn his spot in the line up through proving it on the field.
Good post DG. My 11 plays both LL and year round club as well. LL is great this year because he is learning to be a team leader on a team with many boys who are a year older than him, plus encouraging less skilled players. While on the club team he is one of 12 very evenly skilled players, thus learning to work in as a piece of the overall team puzzle. Two different, but valuable environments.
We too have learned as parents to just shut up and cheer, and it is great to see how the joy for baseball just springs out from your boy. They know the voices coming from the stands.
In terms of the overall baseball, from what I've seen in our area, comparing pure Club teams to let's say a one or two-time tournament team organized of LL "all stars" who are not full time club players, both teams tend to be very comparable in terms of pure skills, or tools. The big difference I see with the club team is the harmony and greater sophistication relative to executing defensive plays, and baserunning. Club teams tend to run all over the teams who aren't as used to "live ball" real baseball rules. Plus, they have more hitters who are learning and executing a better ability to situational hit, and better ability to be patient at plate looking for pitch to drive, then protecting with two strikes. However, the raw tools or skills are often very close.
We too have learned as parents to just shut up and cheer, and it is great to see how the joy for baseball just springs out from your boy. They know the voices coming from the stands.
In terms of the overall baseball, from what I've seen in our area, comparing pure Club teams to let's say a one or two-time tournament team organized of LL "all stars" who are not full time club players, both teams tend to be very comparable in terms of pure skills, or tools. The big difference I see with the club team is the harmony and greater sophistication relative to executing defensive plays, and baserunning. Club teams tend to run all over the teams who aren't as used to "live ball" real baseball rules. Plus, they have more hitters who are learning and executing a better ability to situational hit, and better ability to be patient at plate looking for pitch to drive, then protecting with two strikes. However, the raw tools or skills are often very close.
Basically, the advantages for playing select is that you have coaches that will actually yell something at you because they want you to get better. At most pony games, coaches dont say a word at what a player is doing wrong, they just encourage. To keep playing the game of baseball, you cant think about what you just did that was good, but how you can get better. Most of the top select teams will always have a good coach and good coaches will tell you exactley what your doing wrong and they'll yell at you to give you desire.