Probably been discussed on these forums before, but with the serious injuries we've heard about around here the last few days - what do you think? I suppose facemasks should also be discussed.
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Leave the game alone and as it is
It used to be that pitchers were taught how to properly follow thru and be in position to protect and field their position. Now it is more about getting more velocity and thus many , if not most, pitchers end up in a position where they are not able to protect themselves when balls are hit back at them
It used to be that pitchers were taught how to properly follow thru and be in position to protect and field their position. Now it is more about getting more velocity and thus many , if not most, pitchers end up in a position where they are not able to protect themselves when balls are hit back at them
Before you talk about pitchers wearing helmets discuss going to wood bats... I know another whole topic. But there is something wrong, at least on the college level, where you have adults using aluminum bats -- JMHO
I wouldn't think so. Maybe if they started it in little league or something.
I know it's different but there was a time when football & hockey players didn't wear helmets or facemasks
I know it's different but there was a time when football & hockey players didn't wear helmets or facemasks
If you think of the hundreds of game played each day you will realize how rare these accidents are. Also in at least 3 of the most high profile accidents a helmet would not have or did not help. I know even 1 accident is tragic. You cannot make everything perfectly safe. On the other hand I would entertain a discussion on bats. I have 4 Brett Bro Bamboo composit bats that I have used for 3 years in American Legion (team bats) and winter BP. I have not had 1 break. These bats would be much safer and more economical than alum or composit. Not to mention how they would improve the way the game is played.
quote:It used to be that pitchers were taught how to properly thru and be in position to protect and field their position...
Pitchers have been hit in the head, legs, mid-section for as long as baseball has been played. We now have newspapers and internet to cover every accident down to the LL level perhaps making the accidents seem more common. I don't think you assertion explains it at all. Hitters are stronger now, metal bats are more likely to generate velocity off the bat, training overall is better, etc..., etc...
As for pitchers wearing helmets? I have a simpler solution. Since my son was hit in the face, he now wears shatter-proof Oakley glasses. They wrap around his face much just like their sunglasses. The doctor told me if he had those on at the time, the damage would have been much, much less...nothing serious. Absorption and distribution of the impact would have minimized the effect.
Oh, and he's fielded plenty of line drives back through the box...just not one of them.
Our younger son (HS) wears the same thing much of the time. It doesn't look funny, feel funny or affect his pitching at all.
Helmets for pitchers won't happen. Neither will softened-up baseballs.
Bats should be solid, not hollow. That's the best way to "leave the game alone and as it is". Accidents or not, the game is changing fast with the rapid advancement of thin-walled, hollow bats. If they are required to be solid, it won't matter what they're made of. Ban hollow bats.
Parents, please do your part and provide wood, wood composite, wood laminate, epoxy (Baum), or some other solid core bat for your kid to swing. If they can't swing a solid-core bat, they should find a different sport.
Bats should be solid, not hollow. That's the best way to "leave the game alone and as it is". Accidents or not, the game is changing fast with the rapid advancement of thin-walled, hollow bats. If they are required to be solid, it won't matter what they're made of. Ban hollow bats.
Parents, please do your part and provide wood, wood composite, wood laminate, epoxy (Baum), or some other solid core bat for your kid to swing. If they can't swing a solid-core bat, they should find a different sport.
I agree that there is more to this than just one aspect---the players are bigger and stronger--the balls are wound tighter---too much with the aluminum bats--
If there's a need for a solution it's organizations choose to switch to wood bats. I don't want the government banning anything. I want the organizations to choose wood. People say the metal bat industry is too powerful to allow government to ban metal. There can't be a court appeal if organizations choose wood.
When ASA (girl's softball) had a problem with pitchers and corner infielders getting injured they softened the core of the ball. They also moved the rubber back three feet. But it was too close anyway now that girl's do extensive physical training.
When ASA (girl's softball) had a problem with pitchers and corner infielders getting injured they softened the core of the ball. They also moved the rubber back three feet. But it was too close anyway now that girl's do extensive physical training.
Since this is a website about high school baseball, we are by definition talking about government sanctioned sports organizations...not summer leagues.
There is a government "ban" on catchers going without protective gear. I'm sure we all would agree the government isn't overstepping there. Getting schools out of the bat technology arms race by mandating solid bats is a good idea...and should be regarded as a protection of players' rights to experience the age-old purity of the game.
There is a government "ban" on catchers going without protective gear. I'm sure we all would agree the government isn't overstepping there. Getting schools out of the bat technology arms race by mandating solid bats is a good idea...and should be regarded as a protection of players' rights to experience the age-old purity of the game.
quote:Originally posted by brute66:
Helmets for pitchers won't happen.
Never say never.
In high school ball, helmets for fielders have gone from unknown and unreferenced to specifically allowed by rule. They could be just a law suit or two away from being required.
Last year I saw two players wearing them on defense, complete with face guard.
Just witnessed a college pitcher take one off the head. Gun read 103mph on the hit, and it wasn't flushed. In the same game, a hitter knocked the glove off the pitcher at 109 mph ball speed, hit so hard it shot to the 2nd baseman for a ground out.
I agree with solid versus hollow. The weight distribution between the two is day and night.
Without discussing science and physics, all one has to do is compare statistics and power numbers of college players Spring seasons versus Summer wood bat seasons. A general sharp DECLINE because there is a reduction in trampoline effect.
The comment about poor defensive positioning by the pitcher is way off base. Trust me from experience. The ball is on you before you know it.
Ban non-wood bats starting at the high school level.
I agree with solid versus hollow. The weight distribution between the two is day and night.
Without discussing science and physics, all one has to do is compare statistics and power numbers of college players Spring seasons versus Summer wood bat seasons. A general sharp DECLINE because there is a reduction in trampoline effect.
The comment about poor defensive positioning by the pitcher is way off base. Trust me from experience. The ball is on you before you know it.
Ban non-wood bats starting at the high school level.
As I mentioned elsewhere in another forum, lets get back to wood and play baseball instead of pipeball with games ending in foootball scores.
A person can't field what they can't see!
I disregard a lot of the hitter stats since I feel that the averages are so skewed in pipe ball.
A person can't field what they can't see!
I disregard a lot of the hitter stats since I feel that the averages are so skewed in pipe ball.
quote:Originally posted by Jimmy03:quote:Originally posted by brute66:
Helmets for pitchers won't happen.
Never say never.
In high school ball, helmets for fielders have gone from unknown and unreferenced to specifically allowed by rule. They could be just a law suit or two away from being required.
Last year I saw two players wearing them on defense, complete with face guard.
You may have something here. If the rule required pitchers wear helmets in all games where hollow bats are used, this problem would be solved overnight.
Big oops - just realized I mispelled the topic of this thread 
Interesting responses. I am not advocating helmets btw but still concerned nonetheless...
Wood bats will obviously not completely solve the problem. Mike Coolbaugh was 90 ft away down at first base and he still could not get out of the way. His death caused the "legislation" of helmets that are now worn by coaches on all levels of baseball. The ironic thing with this legislation is that it would not have prevented Coolbaugh's death as he was struck in the neck.
Interesting responses. I am not advocating helmets btw but still concerned nonetheless...
Wood bats will obviously not completely solve the problem. Mike Coolbaugh was 90 ft away down at first base and he still could not get out of the way. His death caused the "legislation" of helmets that are now worn by coaches on all levels of baseball. The ironic thing with this legislation is that it would not have prevented Coolbaugh's death as he was struck in the neck.
In my opinion, there is always going to be a potential difference between the speed or direction of the ball and the pitcher's ability to catch the batted ball when approaching the body and especially the head.
Whether with a composite, aluminum, solid core or hollow, wood, or any bat, there is always the same chance that the batted ball will somehow not get stopped due to the difference of abilities of the pitcher to field the ball, batter's strength, bat speed, ball speed, pitch location, or one in a million shot.
In my opinion, if you want to mitigate the potential for head injury, pitchers should wear head protection.
Whether with a composite, aluminum, solid core or hollow, wood, or any bat, there is always the same chance that the batted ball will somehow not get stopped due to the difference of abilities of the pitcher to field the ball, batter's strength, bat speed, ball speed, pitch location, or one in a million shot.
In my opinion, if you want to mitigate the potential for head injury, pitchers should wear head protection.
quote:Originally posted by Homerun04:
In my opinion, there is always going to be a potential difference between the speed or direction of the ball and the pitcher's ability to catch the batted ball when approaching the body and especially the head.
Whether with a composite, aluminum, solid core or hollow, wood, or any bat, there is always the same chance that the batted ball will somehow not get stopped due to the difference of abilities of the pitcher to field the ball, batter's strength, bat speed, ball speed, pitch location, or one in a million shot.
In my opinion, if you want to mitigate the potential for head injury, pitchers should wear head protection.
Good points. I mean why do hitters wear helmets? (rhetorical question). Doesn't the pitcher face the same danger from the hitter once the ball is released? Or is this just a statistical anomoly that people are willing to live with?
If my son were in the hospital right now battling for his life, I think my answer to this question might be different.
Wood bats is step one. The next step is developing a helmet that offers some protection without affecting pitching.
Years ago no one ever imagined that pro hockey would require head and face protection. That's now changed and after the "grandfathered' players played out their careers you never hear a complaint. My guess is that pitchers helmets will start at the youth level and years down the road after multiple litigation's, the "concerned" faction will lead the charge mandating change at the pro level. At that point you will hear little criticism because the pitchers of that time will have grown up wearing them.
Whenever a young person is hurt playing a game; I consider it unfortuanate. However, statistically, those occurances are so rare that making a rush to change is not necessary.
I umpire high school baseball games; there are so few kids that have the ability to play the game without the aid of equiment which helps them succeed (i.e. modern bats). I don't have a problem with playing the game with wood/solid bats; but I don't see it as either necessary or in the best interest of the game.
Every sport has inherent risk; that is the nature of competition. The way to reduce risk is with better training, more repetitions and experience.
Accidents and injuries are always difficult to address with hindsite; I am doubtful that even changes to equipment as being posed in this forum will eliminate or dramatically change there frequency or their occurance.
I umpire high school baseball games; there are so few kids that have the ability to play the game without the aid of equiment which helps them succeed (i.e. modern bats). I don't have a problem with playing the game with wood/solid bats; but I don't see it as either necessary or in the best interest of the game.
Every sport has inherent risk; that is the nature of competition. The way to reduce risk is with better training, more repetitions and experience.
Accidents and injuries are always difficult to address with hindsite; I am doubtful that even changes to equipment as being posed in this forum will eliminate or dramatically change there frequency or their occurance.
Statistically, one could draw any conclusion they wish.
Here's one: Gunnar Sandberg made exactly one start on the mound this season and is now in the hospital with a baseball-shaped fracture in the side of his head. 2010 starts-to-traumatic-head-injury percentage? 100%.
Pretty sobering stat
Here's one: Gunnar Sandberg made exactly one start on the mound this season and is now in the hospital with a baseball-shaped fracture in the side of his head. 2010 starts-to-traumatic-head-injury percentage? 100%.
Pretty sobering stat
quote:It used to be that pitchers were taught how to properly follow thru and be in position to protect and field their position.
That is the truth. Most pitchers expose themselves to getting drilled in the side of the head. Also the chest must be protected. My guy has never been hit by a come backer. That is because he finished and stayed low with his eyes focused on the ball. Squared up in a defensive position.
Also the metal bats are detuned to be very close to wood.
quote:It used to be that pitchers were taught how to properly follow thru and be in position to protect and field their position. Now it is more about getting more velocity and thus many , if not most, pitchers end up in a position where they are not able to protect themselves when balls are hit back at them
TRhit: That's a joke really. The old mantra of "finishing in a good athletic fielding position" isn't sound advice for a couple of reasons. First of all with the exit speeds off of today's Composite bats nearing and or exceeding 100mph, you cannot react quickly enough in the milliseconds you have from approximately 55' at release point. Secondly, the athletic position your are endorsing leaves your front and vital organs, including the head, facing directly at the exiting baseball!
A pitcher that hopes to give himself a chance should finish with his arm-side "push" leg well in front of his glove side "stride" leg. In that way his vital organs are closed off to a direct hit from the baseball. Furthermore, the glove arm would need to finish protecting the head/temperal region ..... that delivery will save your life. To heck with that good fielding position garbage!
Bobble, if you truly believe that todays bats are "detuned to match wood" then you need to get out on the field, or watch a skilled hitter using metal then wood, and get a reality check.
I think your opinion is a joke.
quote:Originally posted by BobbleheadDoll:quote:It used to be that pitchers were taught how to properly follow thru and be in position to protect and field their position.
Also the metal bats are detuned to be very close to wood.
Absolutely false. High tech bats of today in NO WAY resemble the attributes of a wood bat.
Let me think about your thoughts.
Well after watching D1 ball for the last 7-8 years, 13 years of watching MiLB and guys like Carlos Delgato, Vernon Wells etc I think I know what hitting power looks like.
You should educate yourself about the NCAA rules on exit speeds and composite bats.
Well after watching D1 ball for the last 7-8 years, 13 years of watching MiLB and guys like Carlos Delgato, Vernon Wells etc I think I know what hitting power looks like.
You should educate yourself about the NCAA rules on exit speeds and composite bats.
Don't bother brute...you're ramming your head into a wall. Been there, done that. Some things never change.
Watching D1 baseball is one thing.
Actually swinging baseball bats is quite another.
My company manufactures training bats and other equipment. We have tested all types of game bats. Vernon Wells has done testing for us and provided testimonials. NCAA rules are very familiar to us and we communicate with several companies that do NCAA testing.
The difference between wood, or solid core, bats and hollow-core bats is profound. Truly educating one's self would leave no other conclusion.
Actually swinging baseball bats is quite another.
My company manufactures training bats and other equipment. We have tested all types of game bats. Vernon Wells has done testing for us and provided testimonials. NCAA rules are very familiar to us and we communicate with several companies that do NCAA testing.
The difference between wood, or solid core, bats and hollow-core bats is profound. Truly educating one's self would leave no other conclusion.
The NCAA, now in its 10th season of restricting the performance level of non-wood bats, has specific standards delineated in the baseball rules book, including weight-to-length ratio, length, diameter and other specifics. All bats must also pass a laboratory test before a design is approved for on.
Starting January 1, 2011, the NCAA will use a new method for testing and reporting data, called the Bat-Ball Coefficient of Restitution (BBCOR). That decision was announced at the committee’s July 2008 meeting. The committee believes the performance standard in the BBCOR will continue the Association’s effort to allow only those non-wood bats that perform like their wood counterparts to be permitted for competition
Note the final paragraph. Non wood bats have been detuned and will be required to perform more like wood by 2011..
Prior to this 2011 criteria they had to meet a certain BEER rating which was not exactly the same as wood but very close.
Starting January 1, 2011, the NCAA will use a new method for testing and reporting data, called the Bat-Ball Coefficient of Restitution (BBCOR). That decision was announced at the committee’s July 2008 meeting. The committee believes the performance standard in the BBCOR will continue the Association’s effort to allow only those non-wood bats that perform like their wood counterparts to be permitted for competition
Note the final paragraph. Non wood bats have been detuned and will be required to perform more like wood by 2011..
Prior to this 2011 criteria they had to meet a certain BEER rating which was not exactly the same as wood but very close.
quote:Originally posted by brute66:
Watching D1 baseball is one thing.
Actually swinging baseball bats is quite another.
My company manufactures training bats and other equipment. We have tested all types of game bats. Vernon Wells has done testing for us and provided testimonials. NCAA rules are very familiar to us and we communicate with several companies that do NCAA testing.
The difference between wood, or solid core, bats and hollow-core bats is profound. Truly educating one's self would leave no other conclusion.
BHD - now that is a serious slap-down. I don't know how you recover from that one
That was from the NCAA. They have required to detune non wood bats for the last 10 years.
The "BEER" rating is probably more meaningful than the BESR rating. 
I'll reserve judgement on the proposed 2011 rating method until I see the results. Right now there's a world of difference between facing wood and aluminum.
I'll reserve judgement on the proposed 2011 rating method until I see the results. Right now there's a world of difference between facing wood and aluminum.
If the last 10 year statement is correct, maybe last year's emergency banning of rolled bats was in my imagination?
CD I do it by quoting the appropriate NCAA statements.
I have watched many documentaries on testing balls and bats. I my self owned a composite bat when I was younger and you could feel the power it generated. You could actually feel the flex.
I have watched many documentaries on testing balls and bats. I my self owned a composite bat when I was younger and you could feel the power it generated. You could actually feel the flex.
Cadad thats for pointing out my spelling mistake.
quote:Originally posted by BobbleheadDoll:
I my self owned a composite bat when I was younger and you could feel the power it generated. You could actually feel the flex.
Interesting. How long ago was that?
quote:Originally posted by brute66:
The difference between wood, or solid core, bats and hollow-core bats is profound. Truly educating one's self would leave no other conclusion.
Since you done extensive testing, can you share the exit speed differences between wood and non-wood bats?
Our own testing primarily sought Moment of Inertia (MOI) data. The exit speed data I have seen generally correlates to a difference of about 9mph between solid wood and thin-walled bats under controlled conditions.
The exit speed tests are somewhat flawed in the sense that they fail to account for many, many variables that exist in the real world. An important one is that the machine that swings the bats to be tested swings all bats at the same speed, thus generating the 9mph difference. In the real world, wood bats, with their barrel-biased center of gravity, can't be swung as fast as hollow bats by anyone, much less a high schooler. Therefore, the true difference is greater.
I enjoy the "wood vs. aluminum" thread as much as anybody but as to the original topic...
A point of view with two anecdotal data points:
1) I played ice hockey in the last class of kids to go face-maskless (1978). I remember when the first facemasks for non-goalies showed up that year, leaving me wondering how in the world anyone could play with one. The next year they were ubiquitous and I wore one straight through college and into the beer leagues.
2) In college I started a multi-decade career in Rugby, proud at the time of playing the game with no helmets or pads. By my late 30's, guys in the top flight were wearing soft-padded helmets and shoulder-gear. I still don't like that one, but now they're ubiquitous.
As for pitchers wearing some form of head protection we haven't considered yet, I would say "never say never" based on my own experience.
Now the rest of you can get back to arguing.
A point of view with two anecdotal data points:
1) I played ice hockey in the last class of kids to go face-maskless (1978). I remember when the first facemasks for non-goalies showed up that year, leaving me wondering how in the world anyone could play with one. The next year they were ubiquitous and I wore one straight through college and into the beer leagues.
2) In college I started a multi-decade career in Rugby, proud at the time of playing the game with no helmets or pads. By my late 30's, guys in the top flight were wearing soft-padded helmets and shoulder-gear. I still don't like that one, but now they're ubiquitous.
As for pitchers wearing some form of head protection we haven't considered yet, I would say "never say never" based on my own experience.
Now the rest of you can get back to arguing.