I've been gone for a couple of days and just reading this - what a great post! There's a couple of things here that hit home with me personally right now, so I appreciate the wisdom here.
I know of three boys that baseball ended for in HS due to their parents actions. I don't know if any of these boys would have played in college, but they'll never know, because dad (in all these, but I've seen moms go over the edge too) acted like a complete jerk in many of the ways mentioned here.
I've always thought of myself as LM in about every way possible. This is certainly a good reminder to stay that way.
PG
I concur with you but the majority of the low maintenance parents stay away from the bleachers because of the nonsense that goes on there.
At times it gets worse than a LL Game
I concur with you but the majority of the low maintenance parents stay away from the bleachers because of the nonsense that goes on there.
At times it gets worse than a LL Game
quote:I know of three boys that baseball ended for in HS due to their parents actions.
lafmom
Of the three how many had the luxury of picking their parents?
I know dozens and dozens of kids that are playing after high school because of their parents actions.
As one of those parents that seldom if ever goes near the bleachers I can attest to being one of those parents that also seldom gets an unobstructed view of what's going on.
As long as I can see the pitcher's mound the rest is incidental.
As long as I can see the pitcher's mound the rest is incidental.
Dad 04
My son just finished his college eligibility last season. I was there to support him but ultimely it was his hard work and dedication.
My son just finished his college eligibility last season. I was there to support him but ultimely it was his hard work and dedication.
There are some great responses on this thread. They can be very eye opening and useful if read with an open mind.
As PG said in their first post, if you read this and become defensive perhaps you might be a candidate for HM.
The lines between being an aggressive helpful parent and a HM parent can get blurry when you want something so badly for your son. Understood. All the more reason to step back and take a closer look.
I am amazed at some of the negative posts. If this coach was mean, spiteful and petty as some of you have indicated he would not bother to post his delimna on this thread, he would just write the letter with no second thoughts.
He is obviously trying to do what is right by the kid and by his fellow coach. Problem is, thanks to the kids HM parents he can't do both.
Perhaps the best idea would be to simply decline the request to write the letter. Put the burdon back where it belongs, on the shoulders of his parents.
As PG said in their first post, if you read this and become defensive perhaps you might be a candidate for HM.
The lines between being an aggressive helpful parent and a HM parent can get blurry when you want something so badly for your son. Understood. All the more reason to step back and take a closer look.
I am amazed at some of the negative posts. If this coach was mean, spiteful and petty as some of you have indicated he would not bother to post his delimna on this thread, he would just write the letter with no second thoughts.
He is obviously trying to do what is right by the kid and by his fellow coach. Problem is, thanks to the kids HM parents he can't do both.
Perhaps the best idea would be to simply decline the request to write the letter. Put the burdon back where it belongs, on the shoulders of his parents.
I would tell the truth.
If the kid is - in your opinion - a good player - then say that.
If the parents are pains in the as*** - then write that too.
After all - they requested that you write the letter.
Just tell the truth. IMO.
If the kid is - in your opinion - a good player - then say that.
If the parents are pains in the as*** - then write that too.
After all - they requested that you write the letter.
Just tell the truth. IMO.
quote:My son just finished his college eligibility last season.
I doubt he would have done that out of an orphanage or foster home. Congratulations.
Dad04
i am curious to how these kids are playing after school due to their parents actions??? can you explain please. there are parents that are "normal" as my wife calls them and then the other parents.
what she refers to as the normal parents. they can carry on a conversation other than son's playing time, coaches decisions, etc. they realize their kid is not perfect and CAN make mistakes, and holds them accountable.
the other parents always think their kid is the best and nothing is their fault. (often times the kids attitude doesn't match the parents.
my wife will not sit with the parents at a ballgame. whe will sit away from them because of the chatter etc.
we generally have good parents at my school. but there will always be a few
i am curious to how these kids are playing after school due to their parents actions??? can you explain please. there are parents that are "normal" as my wife calls them and then the other parents.
what she refers to as the normal parents. they can carry on a conversation other than son's playing time, coaches decisions, etc. they realize their kid is not perfect and CAN make mistakes, and holds them accountable.
the other parents always think their kid is the best and nothing is their fault. (often times the kids attitude doesn't match the parents.
my wife will not sit with the parents at a ballgame. whe will sit away from them because of the chatter etc.
we generally have good parents at my school. but there will always be a few
quote:my wife will not sit with the parents at a ballgame.
She's not alone. I have never seen a coaches wife sit with parents at any level.
Ask yourself "Would they play after high school as foster kids?"
You are kidding yourself if you answer yes.
itsinthegame ...
The mother requested a letter of recommendation for her son, not one for herself or the kid's dad.
If a former coach has a problem with the mother and/or father, that should be discussed with them directly and not become fodder for discussion with the coach. The parents may have been a handful for the former coaches, but that doesn't mean that they will be for a high school coach. And since it seems as tho the boy is a good player, it would appear that his talent and skill levels have not been negatively impacted by the parents' behaviors (real or perceived). So why does that even have to be a consideration?
If the coach doesn't ask, I cannot understand why someone's perception of "HM parents" (gad, I hate that tag ... who here has not been "HM" at some point in their child's life?) needs to be volunteered. I'm not even sure I would consider it okay even if the other coach were a "very good friend" (not just a friend or even a good friend). But I believe at this point that it is nothing short of gossip. And I am sure that a lot of us who have traveled up the ladder of "baseball advancement" with our sons have been the victims of gossip in the past. It never serves a positive purpose.
quote:After all - they requested that you write the letter.
The mother requested a letter of recommendation for her son, not one for herself or the kid's dad.
If a former coach has a problem with the mother and/or father, that should be discussed with them directly and not become fodder for discussion with the coach. The parents may have been a handful for the former coaches, but that doesn't mean that they will be for a high school coach. And since it seems as tho the boy is a good player, it would appear that his talent and skill levels have not been negatively impacted by the parents' behaviors (real or perceived). So why does that even have to be a consideration?
If the coach doesn't ask, I cannot understand why someone's perception of "HM parents" (gad, I hate that tag ... who here has not been "HM" at some point in their child's life?) needs to be volunteered. I'm not even sure I would consider it okay even if the other coach were a "very good friend" (not just a friend or even a good friend). But I believe at this point that it is nothing short of gossip. And I am sure that a lot of us who have traveled up the ladder of "baseball advancement" with our sons have been the victims of gossip in the past. It never serves a positive purpose.
Point is getting stretched a little bit here. Of course kids need a healthy support system in general to play at the next level. Some kids do succeed in spite of their parents. However, parents can cause problems for their kids as well which is the point.
HM imo is basically rooted in narcissism, selfishness, and insecurity. LM types can always find something positive to say about any player without over-hyping their own kids. HM types easily can find fault in others and never see it in their own. No wonder some people don't like to watch from the bleachers.
HM imo is basically rooted in narcissism, selfishness, and insecurity. LM types can always find something positive to say about any player without over-hyping their own kids. HM types easily can find fault in others and never see it in their own. No wonder some people don't like to watch from the bleachers.
FBM,
I see your point, but if I know the parents well (NOT via gossip) - and they asked I write a letter - I would not conveniently leave out my knowledge of the parents behavior.
Most likely - the first thing I would do in this situation - given my knowledge of the parents behavior - is tactfully try to avoid having to write the letter.
This has happened to me in the past. In most cases - I was able to diplomatically decline writing the letter.
But if I couldnt - I would tell the truth.
I would also never be so shallow as to just spread gossip - but then again - most people that ask you to write a letter or recommend their sons - usually know you well. At least that has been my experience.
I see your point, but if I know the parents well (NOT via gossip) - and they asked I write a letter - I would not conveniently leave out my knowledge of the parents behavior.
Most likely - the first thing I would do in this situation - given my knowledge of the parents behavior - is tactfully try to avoid having to write the letter.
This has happened to me in the past. In most cases - I was able to diplomatically decline writing the letter.
But if I couldnt - I would tell the truth.
I would also never be so shallow as to just spread gossip - but then again - most people that ask you to write a letter or recommend their sons - usually know you well. At least that has been my experience.
quote:i am curious to how these kids are playing after school due to their parents actions??? can you explain please.
Not only does the player need A parent to get there they obviously need both parents. I noticed long ago that teammates on the local and high school teams had parents divorced around the national average, or 50-60%.
On the travel teams he played for and against, where nearly all the kids ended up in college or pro ball, divorce rate was way less than 10%. I count on one hand all the kids from divorced parents he played with outside high school. Those other kids just are not there.
Every family handles the journey their own way, but believe me it gets handled, or they rarely move on.
I don't write this to brag as I am as blessed a man as possible, but honest to God, if the coaching job is beyond your means just leave it for another to do. The whining solves no problem and just makes coaches look pretty bad.
During a back to school/parents luncheon the head coach made it very clear..."I am happy to discuss the Weather, Football, and Basketball with each and all of you, but we will never discuss Baseball in any shape or form."
Personally, I liked it.
Coach set up boundaries, and I respect him for that. I have always belived that the coach is responsible for between the lines and the outcome of his decisions.
Parents should sit in the stands and root for each player's success. As a fan, I am allowed to grumble and be a armchair coach, but that's as far as it goes for me.
(this post is number 200, I only have 9,308 to go to catch up to TRhit, 5,286 to catch up with BeenthereIL, an so on....I figure if they stop posting now and I post at the same normal rate as I have since 2002, I will catch up on July 21, 2208...Then I will really be a HSBweb Old Timer!)
Personally, I liked it.
Coach set up boundaries, and I respect him for that. I have always belived that the coach is responsible for between the lines and the outcome of his decisions.
Parents should sit in the stands and root for each player's success. As a fan, I am allowed to grumble and be a armchair coach, but that's as far as it goes for me.
(this post is number 200, I only have 9,308 to go to catch up to TRhit, 5,286 to catch up with BeenthereIL, an so on....I figure if they stop posting now and I post at the same normal rate as I have since 2002, I will catch up on July 21, 2208...Then I will really be a HSBweb Old Timer!)
itsinthegame ...
I understand what you are saying regarding personal knowledge of a person. But I am talking about here is not "rumor", which may or may not be based on reality, but the discussion of other people's lives and/or behavior to third parties, even if that third party may seem to have a vested interest in the people involved. My belief is that all rumor is gossip but not all gossip is rumor.
Again, the parents asked for a recommendation to the school, apparently for the purpose of the boy's admission to the school, not his trying out or making the baseball team. The original post stated "But my letter, should I write one, will almost surely make it to the coach's desk". That being said, what good can come from discussing the player's parents as regards the player's admission to the school? And why would anybody want to put any thoughts into a coach's head about perceived potential problems ... not even something that is known to be on-going at the time because there has been no contact for several months ... that could jeopardize that player's chances of making the baseball team? Are we to presume that nobody changes their behavior? Once a HM parent, always a HM parent? If that were the case, why would we see lists such as Coach Pincus posted in the hopes that someone will see something in themselves and change for their children's sake?
When our son was young, I tried my best not to discuss any of his naughty behavior (at home) with anybody except my personal mentor. He was far from perfect, but the reason I chose this approach was based on something my mom taught me a long long time ago when she held the same standard ... why give people something negative to look for, that may not happen, but the knowledge of which could tarnish people's perception of him? I see this as the same thing. Unless these parents are behaving (present tense) in a criminal manner or doing something that is abusive, why does a prospective coach have to be forewarned that they "could" be trouble?
Anyway, I am sure we can respectfully agree to disagree on this. It is something I feel pretty strongly about ... mother bear and all ... because I have known people, son and self included, who have been hurt by rumor and gossip, whether well intentioned or not.
JMHO
I understand what you are saying regarding personal knowledge of a person. But I am talking about here is not "rumor", which may or may not be based on reality, but the discussion of other people's lives and/or behavior to third parties, even if that third party may seem to have a vested interest in the people involved. My belief is that all rumor is gossip but not all gossip is rumor.
Again, the parents asked for a recommendation to the school, apparently for the purpose of the boy's admission to the school, not his trying out or making the baseball team. The original post stated "But my letter, should I write one, will almost surely make it to the coach's desk". That being said, what good can come from discussing the player's parents as regards the player's admission to the school? And why would anybody want to put any thoughts into a coach's head about perceived potential problems ... not even something that is known to be on-going at the time because there has been no contact for several months ... that could jeopardize that player's chances of making the baseball team? Are we to presume that nobody changes their behavior? Once a HM parent, always a HM parent? If that were the case, why would we see lists such as Coach Pincus posted in the hopes that someone will see something in themselves and change for their children's sake?
When our son was young, I tried my best not to discuss any of his naughty behavior (at home) with anybody except my personal mentor. He was far from perfect, but the reason I chose this approach was based on something my mom taught me a long long time ago when she held the same standard ... why give people something negative to look for, that may not happen, but the knowledge of which could tarnish people's perception of him? I see this as the same thing. Unless these parents are behaving (present tense) in a criminal manner or doing something that is abusive, why does a prospective coach have to be forewarned that they "could" be trouble?
Anyway, I am sure we can respectfully agree to disagree on this. It is something I feel pretty strongly about ... mother bear and all ... because I have known people, son and self included, who have been hurt by rumor and gossip, whether well intentioned or not.
JMHO
I agree with FBM on this one. One of the things I'm trying to do as some of the kids who have been playing for me move into HS is avoid saying anything about them or their parents (good kids and good families, BTW) to the HS coach. By the time they've gone through fall conditioning and a few practices he'll know more about the kids and their families and how they are likely to fit into his program than I possibly could so I doubt that he'd really be interested in my opinions. I'd really much rather seem a bit standoffish than like someone who is trying to influence the coach.
Bullwinkle
Sounds good to me.
Sounds good to me.
I think this is a fascinating thread with wonderful input and honest differences. I do not want to duplicate things and my comments are actually more questions.
1.) When a parent asks for a letter of recommendation, don't they anticipate that it will be favorable? Is that not the implication?
1a) Whenever a letter of recommendation is requested, doesn't the requestor try and get it from someone they think will be "influential" and will "influence" who receives the letter?
2.) When the request comes from a parent you do not know well and is for a player you have not coached for some time and encouraged to move on, because of the parents, doesn't it seem like there is an ulterior motive?
3.) Doesn't the entity receiving the letter have the right to expect it to be honest? As a result why shouldn't someone like Justbb put in the letter he has not coached the boy for awhile, he has moved on, he only really knows the boy though baseball as all that seems factual.
4.) If that is true, does Justbb or someone asked to write the letter have an obligation to tell the parent of these concerns in advance?
5.) For those who do not know, Justbb is enormously well respected in youth baseball in this area. To me, the "coincidence" that he is asked to write the letter is no coincidence but perhaps an indication of trying to "beat" or manipulate or work the system. Should parents really expect people like Justbb who are so well respected and who volunteer so much of their time to undertake these additional tasks?
6.) If the letter of recommendation is written and the the young man is not admitted, does anyone see ramifications if/when the parents feel those decisions are in any way related to their reading/interpretation of the letter or do you "waive" the right to object when you request the letter?
1.) When a parent asks for a letter of recommendation, don't they anticipate that it will be favorable? Is that not the implication?
1a) Whenever a letter of recommendation is requested, doesn't the requestor try and get it from someone they think will be "influential" and will "influence" who receives the letter?
2.) When the request comes from a parent you do not know well and is for a player you have not coached for some time and encouraged to move on, because of the parents, doesn't it seem like there is an ulterior motive?
3.) Doesn't the entity receiving the letter have the right to expect it to be honest? As a result why shouldn't someone like Justbb put in the letter he has not coached the boy for awhile, he has moved on, he only really knows the boy though baseball as all that seems factual.
4.) If that is true, does Justbb or someone asked to write the letter have an obligation to tell the parent of these concerns in advance?
5.) For those who do not know, Justbb is enormously well respected in youth baseball in this area. To me, the "coincidence" that he is asked to write the letter is no coincidence but perhaps an indication of trying to "beat" or manipulate or work the system. Should parents really expect people like Justbb who are so well respected and who volunteer so much of their time to undertake these additional tasks?
6.) If the letter of recommendation is written and the the young man is not admitted, does anyone see ramifications if/when the parents feel those decisions are in any way related to their reading/interpretation of the letter or do you "waive" the right to object when you request the letter?
Bullwinkle
I like you as a "Brown and Fuzzy Hero"
Don't know how much that counts with you but that is my story and I am stickin to it !
I like you as a "Brown and Fuzzy Hero"
Don't know how much that counts with you but that is my story and I am stickin to it !
infielddad,
1) Yes.
1a) Certainly.
2)Yes.
3)Yes, but I would expect a letter of recommendation to present the best side of a player. I expect a resume to present a potential employee's strengths and to be biased toward the positive. I'd expect the same from a letter of recommendation. Writer's of a letter of recommendation have to be aware of the possibility of "darning" with faint praise.
4) No, but it would be the right thing to do.
5) No, but Justbb should take it as a compliment.
6)You waive the right to object, but that doesn't mean that people won't complain anyways.
JMO
1) Yes.
1a) Certainly.
2)Yes.
3)Yes, but I would expect a letter of recommendation to present the best side of a player. I expect a resume to present a potential employee's strengths and to be biased toward the positive. I'd expect the same from a letter of recommendation. Writer's of a letter of recommendation have to be aware of the possibility of "darning" with faint praise.
4) No, but it would be the right thing to do.
5) No, but Justbb should take it as a compliment.
6)You waive the right to object, but that doesn't mean that people won't complain anyways.
JMO
the HM views are interesting, ya gotta love it
I totaly enjoy talking with ALL THE PARENTS, even the few who are bitchin' -
I just took it all in - I sit or stand where-ever - behind the screen or down the line and enjoy every minute
BUT - my wife has seldom seen a BP, she attends to watch her son PLAY - however I really can enjoy a weekend of baseball and if he plays, it's a plus
Also, I'm looking forward to my son graduating, so I can talk baseball with the coaches anytime
- (like they always said) -
and so what if I have to wake them up!! (and hey, they DID GIVE ME their phone #'s)
I totaly enjoy talking with ALL THE PARENTS, even the few who are bitchin' -
I just took it all in - I sit or stand where-ever - behind the screen or down the line and enjoy every minute
BUT - my wife has seldom seen a BP, she attends to watch her son PLAY - however I really can enjoy a weekend of baseball and if he plays, it's a plus
Also, I'm looking forward to my son graduating, so I can talk baseball with the coaches anytime
- (like they always said) - and so what if I have to wake them up!!
(and hey, they DID GIVE ME their phone #'s)
Dad 04
"She's not alone. I have never seen a coaches wife sit with parents at any level"
Thought you might enjoy this story then:
My sons first college game at his new college (his senior year) I sat with a very enjoyable woman. She had a daughter with her who was totally taken with my sons 2 year old twins. It was a very pleasant game. I did not find out until near the end of the game that she was the coach's wife.
Since we had so enjoyed each others company I would have felt very awkward NOT sitting with her at the next game. We ended up sitting together most of the season.
The only "playing time" we discussed was the twins rolling down the hill.
"She's not alone. I have never seen a coaches wife sit with parents at any level"
Thought you might enjoy this story then:
My sons first college game at his new college (his senior year) I sat with a very enjoyable woman. She had a daughter with her who was totally taken with my sons 2 year old twins. It was a very pleasant game. I did not find out until near the end of the game that she was the coach's wife.
Since we had so enjoyed each others company I would have felt very awkward NOT sitting with her at the next game. We ended up sitting together most of the season.
The only "playing time" we discussed was the twins rolling down the hill.
AP
Thats cool. I still miss the Jr. year coach and his fam. They were wonderful. If I wanted to say hi to the missus I had to go down to the other side of the dugout and I did. She and her guy were both great.
I have seen some nasty stuff as recently as this summer regarding coaches wives & players moms. Yikes!!
Thats cool. I still miss the Jr. year coach and his fam. They were wonderful. If I wanted to say hi to the missus I had to go down to the other side of the dugout and I did. She and her guy were both great.
I have seen some nasty stuff as recently as this summer regarding coaches wives & players moms. Yikes!!
infielddad said: When a parent asks for a letter of recommendation, don't they anticipate that it will be favorable? Is that not the implication?
************************************************
The letter of recommendation is a request, usually by someone who holds the recommender in high regard, with respect of their opinion and their knowledge...usually known as the "higher authority figure".
They are entrusting to the recommender the fate or outcome of accomodation to help in overcoming what seems to be an insurmountable hurdle.
Just the fact that someone would ask you be a recommender for them is in itself a recognition of respect of you and how much they anticipate that a word from you will be persuasive enough to help them accomplish the goal.
For that trust to be turned into betrayal reflects more on a lack of understanding of who can be trusted with such a solemn and responsible task.
That is the reason JB is struggling with this because knows what it means to have this power over these parents. He can help their son live their dream, or in affect be the catalyst to destroy it.
It is a heavy burden, one not taken lightly.
My recommendation remains the same, call this mother and talk to her. Be a good neighbor and help them understand how to be successful with their new coach and this new school.
In effect be a professional...not a busy-body.
************************************************
The letter of recommendation is a request, usually by someone who holds the recommender in high regard, with respect of their opinion and their knowledge...usually known as the "higher authority figure".
They are entrusting to the recommender the fate or outcome of accomodation to help in overcoming what seems to be an insurmountable hurdle.
Just the fact that someone would ask you be a recommender for them is in itself a recognition of respect of you and how much they anticipate that a word from you will be persuasive enough to help them accomplish the goal.
For that trust to be turned into betrayal reflects more on a lack of understanding of who can be trusted with such a solemn and responsible task.
That is the reason JB is struggling with this because knows what it means to have this power over these parents. He can help their son live their dream, or in affect be the catalyst to destroy it.
It is a heavy burden, one not taken lightly.
My recommendation remains the same, call this mother and talk to her. Be a good neighbor and help them understand how to be successful with their new coach and this new school.
In effect be a professional...not a busy-body.
quote:They are entrusting to the recommender the fate or outcome of accomodation to help in overcoming what seems to be an insurmountable hurdle.
Just the fact that someone would ask you be a recommender for them is in itself a recognition of respect of you and how much they anticipate that a word from you will be persuasive enough to help them accomplish the goal.
For that trust to be turned into betrayal reflects more on a lack of understanding of who can be trusted with such a solemn and responsible task.
That is the reason JB is struggling with this because knows what it means to have this power over these parents. He can help their son live their dream, or in affect be the catalyst to destroy it.
Ramrod, I respect your position on the impact and importance of a letter of recommendation and respectfully very much disagree.
These parents have chosen to have their son apply to a private school. JB has absolutely no say in whether he is qualified nor whether he is a candidate to be accepted in comparison to the huge candidate base against which that young man is competing.
JB has been asked to describe what he knows of this young man and nothing more. He has no power and in fact is powerless in the determination of whether that young man gets accepted.
In my business I review probably 50-75 letters of recommendation per year. I have not hired or decided not to hire a single candidate based on those letters and references.
Personally, I think the candidate who is not accepted should find it a reflection that were not the best/most qualified candidate rather than looking to assign "responsibility" externally for lack of acceptance.
With all due respect to FutureBack.Mom, I think she is not considering the negative impact parents can have on a baseball program. One set of "negative" or "problem" parents can create a poor baseball experience for the other parents, which in turn can become a headache for the head coach. In an ideal world, having to deal with difficult parents should not be a factor. However, parents have (with very good reason in many cases) so much power with regards to coaching and the coaching staff that inviting future headaches is akin to dooming the season before it starts. Nah...in my opinion, it is good for coaches to know the facts, especially at the age presented in this post. At this age, parents still have a major part in their son's baseball careers. Don't parents try to find out everything they can about a coach (positive and negative) before allowing their sons to play in a baseball program?
larry ...
Trust me, after being married to a youth coach who didn't stop till son was in high school, who worked with teams as young as 6 and as old as 16, who even coached teams before we had a child, I am fully cognizant of what kind of negative impact some parents can have on a team and on a program. But the high school coach is paid to discern things himself and deal with these kind of issues ... if in fact there ever will be issues.
I think it is pretty presumptuous to say that these parents ... because they were found to be "high maintenance" (still hate that term ... so subjective and so degrading) in the past ... will automatically cause problems at the high school level. Our son's high school coach made it plain as day at the beginning of the season what was acceptable behavior for his players and what was acceptable from their parents. He had no problems dealing with parents who stepped over the boundaries he established.
I still believe that if the premise is as it appears ... that the letter of recommendation is not for the baseball program but for admission to the school ... then the behavior of the parents as it relates to baseball need not be brought up. There should come a point at which the past behavior of these parents is left in the past and doesn't follow them everywhere because some former coach(es) perceived them in a negative light from previous interaction with them. Somewhere along the line, consideration of their feelings and reputations has been left out of the equation. They are due more respect than that and should be addressed directly by those who are seemingly so concerned about letting other people down. I would hate to think of what might have happened to our son if people who perceived us negatively had felt comfortable in volunteering information on some of our past behavior, and I think many of us could have been perceived negatively as we tried to do what we felt was best for our sons.
quote:With all due respect to FutureBack.Mom, I think she is not considering the negative impact parents can have on a baseball program
Trust me, after being married to a youth coach who didn't stop till son was in high school, who worked with teams as young as 6 and as old as 16, who even coached teams before we had a child, I am fully cognizant of what kind of negative impact some parents can have on a team and on a program. But the high school coach is paid to discern things himself and deal with these kind of issues ... if in fact there ever will be issues.
I think it is pretty presumptuous to say that these parents ... because they were found to be "high maintenance" (still hate that term ... so subjective and so degrading) in the past ... will automatically cause problems at the high school level. Our son's high school coach made it plain as day at the beginning of the season what was acceptable behavior for his players and what was acceptable from their parents. He had no problems dealing with parents who stepped over the boundaries he established.
I still believe that if the premise is as it appears ... that the letter of recommendation is not for the baseball program but for admission to the school ... then the behavior of the parents as it relates to baseball need not be brought up. There should come a point at which the past behavior of these parents is left in the past and doesn't follow them everywhere because some former coach(es) perceived them in a negative light from previous interaction with them. Somewhere along the line, consideration of their feelings and reputations has been left out of the equation. They are due more respect than that and should be addressed directly by those who are seemingly so concerned about letting other people down. I would hate to think of what might have happened to our son if people who perceived us negatively had felt comfortable in volunteering information on some of our past behavior, and I think many of us could have been perceived negatively as we tried to do what we felt was best for our sons.
quote:I stand by my opinion on this because if the premise is understood that the letter of recommendation is not for the baseball program, then the behavior of the parents as it relates to baseball need not be brought up.
Not true. There is NO other reason for them to ask me as I know their child in NO other context. That together with the fact that baseball is THE reason they are applying to this school...they told me so. Also add the fact that athletics IS taken into account for admission to THIS school.
Simply put, his parents want him to go there to play baseball and get a decent education at the same time. I support that and will act accordingly. I would never, let me repeat...NEVER do anything to hurt a kid either in the short or long term. Thats what I'm trying to figure out...how to be trustworthy and spare the kid from any collateral damage at the same time. I have no tolerance for anyone who would not act in a kid's best interest. The answer may be to do nothing at all...I am still thinking.
I could do without your assumptions/judgments about my motivations or intentions. They're about as incorrect as they could be.
I have been in correspondance with JBB for a few years now and I can safely say that he is a very fair person, smart, knows what's the proper thing to do and a good judge of character and would NEVER say anything negatively about a player, here, on another site or in a letter (even if he thought otherwise). Why he has even admitted, without being ashamed that he is HM 
JBB was in a dilemma and came to us for advice. I am sure, being the wise man he is, will be able to make a decision on his own regarding the letter. For anyone to suggest he would otherwise write something negative about the player is just plain silly.
JBB, I know your dilemma. Summer before college one of the mom's approached me at the field to ask me how she could get in touch with Dave's summer coach. She knew that it was by invitation only but she felt that since three of her sons friends (Dave and 2 others) would be away for the summer he would have nothing to do, the boys were a positive influence (he had been in some trouble that year) and he might be seen by someone to get a scholarship. I knew the coach was pretty strict about his players having decent GPA's but I told her that I would speak with Dave and have the coach call her. We all felt (coach included) that it would be a good experience for him, and the mom was told that he would not be a starter, had to earn a spot, and probably would not get a scholarship just for being on the team due to his grades (he was an ok player). We all felt good about helping a lost sole to be with his baseball buddies before they left for college.
Two weeks into the schedule she was already on the phone several times with the coach about what her son liked and didn't like. One night (while on the road)he was reprimanded for walking away after a game to call his girlfriend when the team was having an after game meeting. He also had been reprimanded for using foul language to his roomate (one of the friends). He called his mom and said he wanted to come home immediately. She then called the coach and demanded that someone take him to the airport, which the coach would not as he had 26 other boys to worry about and told her to have her son take a cab. He did not ask him to leave the team, could she just wait a few more days until they got home to quit the team, she said no.
Can you imagine how embarrassed I felt (let alone my son was furious at what this kid did) the next time I saw the coach? I apologized, told him I should have warned him, but my concern was for her son, having a good and meaningful summer, not her being HM.
I can tell you, after that, I will never ever again go out on a limb without giving some warning in advance.
JBB, I stick to my original suggestion, write the letter, but if you feel you must, let the coach you have a relationship with know your thoughts. It may save you a lot of embarrassment later on.
JBB was in a dilemma and came to us for advice. I am sure, being the wise man he is, will be able to make a decision on his own regarding the letter. For anyone to suggest he would otherwise write something negative about the player is just plain silly.
JBB, I know your dilemma. Summer before college one of the mom's approached me at the field to ask me how she could get in touch with Dave's summer coach. She knew that it was by invitation only but she felt that since three of her sons friends (Dave and 2 others) would be away for the summer he would have nothing to do, the boys were a positive influence (he had been in some trouble that year) and he might be seen by someone to get a scholarship. I knew the coach was pretty strict about his players having decent GPA's but I told her that I would speak with Dave and have the coach call her. We all felt (coach included) that it would be a good experience for him, and the mom was told that he would not be a starter, had to earn a spot, and probably would not get a scholarship just for being on the team due to his grades (he was an ok player). We all felt good about helping a lost sole to be with his baseball buddies before they left for college.
Two weeks into the schedule she was already on the phone several times with the coach about what her son liked and didn't like. One night (while on the road)he was reprimanded for walking away after a game to call his girlfriend when the team was having an after game meeting. He also had been reprimanded for using foul language to his roomate (one of the friends). He called his mom and said he wanted to come home immediately. She then called the coach and demanded that someone take him to the airport, which the coach would not as he had 26 other boys to worry about and told her to have her son take a cab. He did not ask him to leave the team, could she just wait a few more days until they got home to quit the team, she said no.
Can you imagine how embarrassed I felt (let alone my son was furious at what this kid did) the next time I saw the coach? I apologized, told him I should have warned him, but my concern was for her son, having a good and meaningful summer, not her being HM.
I can tell you, after that, I will never ever again go out on a limb without giving some warning in advance.
JBB, I stick to my original suggestion, write the letter, but if you feel you must, let the coach you have a relationship with know your thoughts. It may save you a lot of embarrassment later on.
JBB,
Based on your specific case as best as I can determine from what you have written, I would say do nothing.
I do think - however, that the worst thing you can do is hide the truth from the coach if in fact you do write the letter or have the conversation.
My additional guess would be that your valued reputation as a baseball resource requires truthfullness and full disclosure.
Good luck in your decision.
Based on your specific case as best as I can determine from what you have written, I would say do nothing.
I do think - however, that the worst thing you can do is hide the truth from the coach if in fact you do write the letter or have the conversation.
My additional guess would be that your valued reputation as a baseball resource requires truthfullness and full disclosure.
Good luck in your decision.
This might be one of those perfect examples where the old adage our parents' used to tell us "If you can't say something nice, don't say anything at all" could apply. Personally, I would have no problem writing the letter without mention of the parents, if I felt the kid deserving. IMO, if you seriously feel the need to relay something negative about the parents (in regards to their past actions and team hopping) due to your friendship with the coach.....I would politely refuse the request to write the letter on the grounds that there is a conflict of interest due to your friendship with the coach.
I think most of us have had the opportunity at some point to go out on a limb for someone we know. Sometimes, we decide to not even go out on that limb. Sometimes that journey is a safe one... and sometimes the trek out on the limb results in a break and a subsequent fall. That is a choice each of us has to make in determining if we are willing to take the risk. In your example...telling the coach about the parents serves as a safety net in case the branch breaks (it protects your reputation with the coach should the parents start to be "HM"). I guess you have to determine if you need that safety net...or are you willing to take a risk on this boy at this high school and write a letter without mention of the parents? Of course, you could always not go out on the limb at all.
JBB....lots to ponder in this thread!
I think most of us have had the opportunity at some point to go out on a limb for someone we know. Sometimes, we decide to not even go out on that limb. Sometimes that journey is a safe one... and sometimes the trek out on the limb results in a break and a subsequent fall. That is a choice each of us has to make in determining if we are willing to take the risk. In your example...telling the coach about the parents serves as a safety net in case the branch breaks (it protects your reputation with the coach should the parents start to be "HM"). I guess you have to determine if you need that safety net...or are you willing to take a risk on this boy at this high school and write a letter without mention of the parents? Of course, you could always not go out on the limb at all.
JBB....lots to ponder in this thread!
Dad 04 - I don't disagree with what I think you're saying. I am one of those divorced parents and yes there are fewer kids from this type of family that make it to HS, college, etc. ball and other activities. There are many reasons for this. However, I don't think that any parent has to act like a jerk to get their kids to the places they want to be. I also don't necessarily feel JBB has to tell the other coach the particulars - I think adding the line "feel free to contact me for any additional info" is sufficient.
The kids that I referred to earlier who's careers ended at the start of HS level, included a dad who wrote a scathing nasty letter with many accusations and emailed it to all the parents who's kids made the team. This kid probably would have made it the next year if he would have tried out, however because the kid was so embarrassed and ashamed of his dad's behavior, he wouldn't even tryout. Another player's dad made him strip off out of a uniform which dad threw on the ground because the player was only going to be a freshman player as an eigth grader and not on JV. This was after the dad had changed LL teams, etc. many times with similar patterns of behavior. I could go on with examples. The bottom line, is sometimes it's not the coaches that recognize and prevent these innocent kids from participating. It's the kids themselves. How does a teenager allow himself in a position where he knows what mom/dad will do if he doesn't perform to the expectation that's needed to be a superstar per dad/mom's eyes. It's alot for a kid to take and again I will say that's too bad. My heart goes out to kids that have had to live with and witness this behavior.
Being an advocate for your kid is an entirely different scenario. I don't think anyone would disagree with that. JMO
The kids that I referred to earlier who's careers ended at the start of HS level, included a dad who wrote a scathing nasty letter with many accusations and emailed it to all the parents who's kids made the team. This kid probably would have made it the next year if he would have tried out, however because the kid was so embarrassed and ashamed of his dad's behavior, he wouldn't even tryout. Another player's dad made him strip off out of a uniform which dad threw on the ground because the player was only going to be a freshman player as an eigth grader and not on JV. This was after the dad had changed LL teams, etc. many times with similar patterns of behavior. I could go on with examples. The bottom line, is sometimes it's not the coaches that recognize and prevent these innocent kids from participating. It's the kids themselves. How does a teenager allow himself in a position where he knows what mom/dad will do if he doesn't perform to the expectation that's needed to be a superstar per dad/mom's eyes. It's alot for a kid to take and again I will say that's too bad. My heart goes out to kids that have had to live with and witness this behavior.
Being an advocate for your kid is an entirely different scenario. I don't think anyone would disagree with that. JMO
quote:I could do without your assumptions/judgments about my motivations or intentions. They're about as incorrect as they could be.
Am not sure to whom this was directed, but I do not believe that I made any assumptions or judgments about your motivations or intentions. You came here and asked for advice ... I am presuming that your question was posed to all posters ... about whether you should say anything to the coach about the player's parents. Nowhere in your original post did you say that this was specifically about the athletics of the school involved, and I don't recall that anyone clarified it when luvbb asked the question. And heaven forbid we should presume anything. A very few of us disagree with the majority, and as is becoming the case around here, that seems to mean we should not respond to general questions. In actuality, this has become a very interesting thread that has garnered a lot of interest based on the number of responses and the number of views. So rather than squelch our freedom of expression, why not send PM's to those whose opinions you value rather than put it up for a general discussion?
I have very strong opinions about what I believe is fair to the boy's parents in this kind of case. My opinion is different than others but I have said nothing vague ... I believe to speak to the coach about the parents is a form of gossip. Period. Bottom line. We don't have to agree, and that is fine. But I didn't realize that a perspective that differs from that of the majority should not be stated when someone comes to the board and asks for advice.
quote:For anyone to suggest he would otherwise write something negative about the player is just plain silly.
As far as I am concerned, there is nothing in the original post that indicates he would say anything negative about the player. And as far as the others that disagree with the majority, I don't recall reading that anybody feels he would malign the player. But discussing perceptions about the parents' behavior can and will hurt the boy, indirectly or directly. It has happened a myriad of times in the real world, and my son was hurt by that kind of thing because someone disagreed with how his dad coached or how I ran the auxillary board.
quote:So rather than squelch our freedom of expression, why not send PM's to those whose opinions you value rather than put it up for a general discussion?
If anyone here thinks that I have "squelched" their freedom of expression, please let me know. If so, I am sincerely very, very sorry. And if so, it is time for me to move on.
I do appreciate the many thoughtful responses on this thread. I read and thought hard about every one of them. It has been very interesting and you have all helped me think this through a great deal. Thank you.
jbb-In your initial post you stated the problem you had with the parents was that they use people and move from team to team and back again and you politely
told them "no more...move on". I personally would not request a reference from
a coach who told me to move on. But with that being said and since it appears that you have addressed the situation already with the parents why can't you say
something like this?
"Mr/Mrs Nomad, I would be glad to write a reference for young Nomy because he
is a quality young man and has a lot to offer a school and baseball program, and
I'm sure you won't mind-since my reputation is on the line-and I am friends with
Coach Smith at Private Prep.- my discussing with him why we felt in in our best
interests not to have Nomy play for us last summer. Of course you and Coach Smith will be able to discuss this openly and start off on the right foot. Wouldn't you agree? "
Or something along those lines.
I would certainly want to know of anything that one of my friends knew about a prospective player or family that was going to negatively impact my team.
I think "friend" is the key word here. If a coach called and asked me about a
player I would give him my honest opinion about the player. If the coach were
also a friend I'm afraid I would also have to give him the "whole" picture.
Reason being, I do not know how another coach would handle the parental situation-different personalities, different perspectives. But a "friend" of
mine would do the same for me. I hope.
told them "no more...move on". I personally would not request a reference from
a coach who told me to move on. But with that being said and since it appears that you have addressed the situation already with the parents why can't you say
something like this?
"Mr/Mrs Nomad, I would be glad to write a reference for young Nomy because he
is a quality young man and has a lot to offer a school and baseball program, and
I'm sure you won't mind-since my reputation is on the line-and I am friends with
Coach Smith at Private Prep.- my discussing with him why we felt in in our best
interests not to have Nomy play for us last summer. Of course you and Coach Smith will be able to discuss this openly and start off on the right foot. Wouldn't you agree? "
Or something along those lines.
I would certainly want to know of anything that one of my friends knew about a prospective player or family that was going to negatively impact my team.
I think "friend" is the key word here. If a coach called and asked me about a
player I would give him my honest opinion about the player. If the coach were
also a friend I'm afraid I would also have to give him the "whole" picture.
Reason being, I do not know how another coach would handle the parental situation-different personalities, different perspectives. But a "friend" of
mine would do the same for me. I hope.
Moc...
Little "Nomy"....
Little "Nomy"....
I have to add two points here.
First, I totally agree with Moc1 and couldn't have said it any better.
I know Justbaseball and have a great deal of respect for him. I do not think he has any motives or whatever. He is a respected baseman in Northern California who cares about the kids in that area. Having said that I'm sure he will figure out and do the right thing in this situation - whatever it is.
First, I totally agree with Moc1 and couldn't have said it any better.
I know Justbaseball and have a great deal of respect for him. I do not think he has any motives or whatever. He is a respected baseman in Northern California who cares about the kids in that area. Having said that I'm sure he will figure out and do the right thing in this situation - whatever it is.
I hope I haven't offended the nomads of the world. 
Just to make a point-again, I guess, If I'm asked to write a letter of reference about a former player who was a fine young man-that's what the letter will say. He's a fine young man.
But when I'm asked for a letter of reference that is going to a "friend" he or she is going to get the whole story-one way or another. I think that's why we call them FRIENDS.
Just to make a point-again, I guess, If I'm asked to write a letter of reference about a former player who was a fine young man-that's what the letter will say. He's a fine young man.
But when I'm asked for a letter of reference that is going to a "friend" he or she is going to get the whole story-one way or another. I think that's why we call them FRIENDS.
JBB, actually it's been a great topic as evidenced by the interest it gotquote:If anyone here thinks that I have "squelched" their freedom of expression, please let me know. If so, I am sincerely very, very sorry. And if so, it is time for me to move on.
you may have also solved any dilema on your end due to the extreme #s of baseball "lurkers" who read but never post - the topic is probably in that coach's mailbox by now anyway, if he didn't read it here first personally