Should this person be in the Hall of Fame?

Yes.

I am with JBB, definetly.

Where's the explanation? Try not to be sentimental. Hopefully there will be debate for and againt.

Way before my time. This is exactly why players need to be compared to other players in their era, because 45 year later we have little context for how dominant he was. It was a vastly different game back then. Typically, pitchers today have longer careers because they take better care of themselves with exercise, diet and off season workouts. The motivation (long term contract) to extend one's career is very strong today. To answer your question directly, Koufax's stats don't impress me as much as somone like Pedro Martinez, but I don't get a vote. Koufax also played on some good teams in some large markets which didn't hurt him either. You have to trust the guys that put him in the HOF at that point in time. He must have been one of the best at the time.

Not being sentimental, there are very few Cy Young winners that have been voted for unanimously (all 3 years for him) and very few with 3 or more awards.

In that era, only having 6 good seasons is an accomplishment. I agree with Fenway, it's hard for us to judge is we were not there, and there had to have been a reason and trust those that put him in.

JMO.

I have never talked with anyone who saw him pitch that didn't say he was one of the greatest, if not THE greatest and most dominating pitcher they ever saw.

He is a benchmark that is still used to this day to measure LHPs. He was a 'one-of-a-kind.'

To me, those types of players have to be in the HOF.

Being great for only four seasons isn't an issue?

RJM,

You actually bring up a good point. No doubt about it, Koufax is in the HOF based on a short span of excellence. To me it all boils down to a few things.

1. For a four or five year period he was as good as anyone has ever been.

2. Those were the last years of his career, when he left the game it was after he went 27-9 with a 1.73 ERA and the Cy Young. Maybe had he been able to hang on he might have tarnished his achievements, people might have looked at him differently.

3. Very unique case, not sure that there is another case like it in the HOF.

Koufax had five seasons (age 26 though age 30 seasons) where his ERA was sub-3.00, and in each of those seasons his ERA led his league (if not all of MLB). In three of them, he also led in wins, shutouts, and strikeouts, and in two of them he led in complete games and innings pitched. He won the Cy Young in three of those seasons, the MVP once, and was runner-up in MVP voting two other times.

Jim Rice and Dale Murphy are not good comparisons. Koufax in his dominant seasons was WAY more dominant than Rice or Murphy were in their four or five best seasons.

A good way to look at this is by ERA+ and OPS+. These are designed to measure a pitchers ERA and a batters OPS (On-Base Percentage + Slugging Percentage) compared to the league average, so that a score of 100 means you are league average and a score of 150 means you were 50% better than league average. The beauty of these stats is that they allow us to compare how dominant players were using widely accepted measures (ERA, and OPS) versus the the average player of their era, which gives you a decent method for comparing how dominant players were, across eras.

Koufax's top five ERA+ seasons (those five I already mentioned above) were 190 (CY, MVP-2), 188, 160 (CY, MVP-2), 159 (CY, MVP), and 142.

Jim Rice's five best OPS+ seasons were 157 (MVP), 154, 147, 141, and 136.

Dale Murphy's best five OPS+ seasons were 157, 152, 149 (MVP), 149, and 142 (MVP).

Murphy's five best were mostly consecutive - 1982 through 1985, and 1987. Over the six-year period (including 1986, when he posted a very good but not great 121 OPS+) that encompasses all of his best five years, Murphy posted a 145 OPS+.

Rice is harder to peg, because his best years were only consecutive in the first three of his best five (1977-79), then 1983, and 1986. If you look at his OPS+ for the entire 10-year period that encompasses all of his best five years, he posted a cumulative 135 OPS+. But breaking it up (1977-1979: 153 OPS+; 1980-1983: 129 OPS+; and 1984-1986: 124 OPS+) might paint a picture that is a little fairer to Rice and a more accurate career arc.

In contrast, Koufax's best five year period did come in consecutive years (and as PGStaff points out, he retired at his absolute peak at age 30, right after he posted that 190 ERA+), and Koufax accumulated a 167 ERA+ over that consecutive 5-year period. During that stretch, Koufax pitched in 181 games, won 111 and lost 34, with 100 complete games and 33 shutouts, struck out 1444 batters, while compiling a 1.95 ERA. The seasonal, per 162-game average for that time period was 22-7, 1.95 ERA, 275 IP, and 289 K with a 0.926 WHIP.

To put that into perspective, only 33 pitchers since the dawn of the 20th century have ever had a single season that was in some way equivalent to what Koufax averaged for a consecutive five-year period. The link above shows a B-Ref report for all single seasons in which a pitcher posted 20 or more wins, 10 or more losses, with at least a 165 ERA+ and a sub-1.00 WHIP. You can only sort by four categories, but if you required 250 or more strikeouts, that list would dwindle to 11 pitchers, and to 9 if you also required at least 250 IP.

And if you required pitchers to match or better Koufax's average during that 5-year period (>= 22 wins, <=7 losses, >= 167 ERA+, and <= 0.926 WHIP), there are only five pitchers who've ever done it in a season. If you also require at least 275 IP, only two (Walter Johnson in 1913, and Christy Mathewson in 1909). If you also require at least 289 K (but not 275 IP)? Only one - Pedro Martinez in 1999. If you also require both a minimum of 289 K and 275 IP...no pitcher has ever had such a season. That's how historically great that five-year stretch was.

Rice and Murphy were clearly dominant in their eras, but no matter how you slice it, neither of those dominant hitters' most dominant periods was nearly as dominant as Koufax's five year period between 1962 and 1966 was.

And yes, IMO, that is plenty dominant enough.

Sandy was accordingly to the SF Giants players in 1962 "unhittable". He "tipped" his pitches and Willie and the Giants could not hit off of Sandy.

Ron Perranoski, my teammate in the Basin League was the "closer"and his remarks of Koufax were always with admiration.

After one of our Goodwill Series, I met with the Dodgers Scouting Director at the empty Dodger Stadium and we looked unto the field and I ask
Terry, "will he we another Sandy Koufax"?
He said no!

Bob

Sandy Koufax don't belong in the HOF. He had only a few dominant years. Most of his career, he was very pedestrian. Not nearly enough body of work to be a HOFer. If you're gonna put in players because they had a couple of good seasons, then players loike Mattingly are a shoe-in.

Koufax was the most dominant pitcher of his era,period. That is why he was selected into the hall of fame. His handling of the Yankees in world series was sereal. If you ever get the chance see the game. It is somewhere on the web. Makes mantle ,batting right handed, bail out. Curveball could be the filthiest ever. Dont take my word take Casey Stengels. When asked who the best pitcher ever was he said koufax was, hands down. Stress put on his arm due to lack of run support was enourmous. He was winning games 1-0 and 2-1 going the distance.If he pitched today with all of the relief pitchers out there he could have pitched forever. No doubt he is HOFer.

Just a fun little tidbit that most of you probably know, but what the heck (in case you don't)...

Koufax pitched a perfect game against the Cubs in 1965. The opposing pitcher, Bob Hendley, threw a 1-hitter. Final score, 1-0. Both pitchers had a no-no into the 7th. The Dodgers lone run...was unearned.

The game holds the record for the lowest number of baserunners (both teams)...2.

Amazing.

The game was selected in a 1995 poll of members of the Society for American Baseball Research as the greatest game ever pitched.

zombywoof- I am a Yankee fan as well, but I completely disagree with you. Mattingly's numbers in his best years aren't even remotely in the same stratosphere as the domination that Koufax had.

EdgarFan- Great analysis.

This is an interesting argument, and a lot of good things have been said. I am sure that the same type of conversation can be had for Pedro Martinez in 5 years.

But here's the question...Should players get in the HOF based on their five best years or dominance over a long career? Koufax only won 165 games. There are a lot of pitchers who won more. that aren't in the HOF.

HOF selection is confusion to say the least. How is Peewee Reese and Bill Mazeroski in the HOF?

If the HOF selection is based on the best five years for a given player, then you could add quite a few to the list who aren't in.

While some have tried to apply one, there is no set formula for the HOF...except at the individual voter level. It should include the most dominant and best players the game has ever seen.

Koufax satisfies all of that and more. It really isn't a close call.

RJM,

You think Sandy Koufax shouldn't be in the hall but Jack Morris should be.

Since you refuse to consider any advanced statistical analysis that might contraindicate your claims, let me offer some plain language comparisons to show how much more Koufax accomplished in his career than Morris did in his.

Sandy Koufax pitched 12 seasons; Morris pitched 18 seasons.

Koufax threw 4 no hitters, one a perfect game; Morris none.

Koufax was World Series MVP twice; Morris once.

Koufax won 3 Cy Youngs when there was only one winner for all of MLB; Morris never won a Cy Young and never even finished second in the Cy Young voting. How does a starting pitcher get into the HoF without winning a Cy Young?

Koufax was his league's Sporting News Pitcher of the Year four times; Morris only once.

Koufax was a 7-time all star; Morris only a 5-time all star.

Koufax's winning percentage was .654; Morris's was .577.

Koufax's career ERA was 2.76; Morris' was 3.90. Morris never had a single season ERA within a half run of Koufax's career ERA!

Koufax had 2,396 K's in innings in 2,324 innings; Morris had 2,478 K's in 3,824 innings. Morris had to pitch an extra 1,500 innings to match Koufax's strikeout total!

Koufax had 137 complete games in 314 starts (43%); Morris had 175 complete games in 527 starts (33%).

Koufax had 40 shutouts in 314 starts (12.7%); Morris had 28 shutouts in 527 starts (5.3%).

Koufax won the pitching triple crown three times; Morris never.

Koufax had 3 20-win seasons (25, 26, and 27 wins); Morris also had 3 20-win seasons (21 twice and 20 once).

Koufax had as many 300-strikeout seasons as Morris had 200-strikeout seasons.

Koufax was voted onto to MLB's all-time and all-century teams; Morris got no votes for either.

Koufax was the youngest living former player ever elected to the hall, was elected on the first ballot with over 86% of the votes; Morris has been on the ballot since 2000 and has topped out at 53% of the votes.

Sorry, RJM, but there's no comparison.

Game, set...match!

The sacrilege is that any posters think someone like Lee Smith is a Hall of Famer and Koufax isn't. Koufax had more value in his best four years than Smith has had in his career. I get a chuckle when someone thinks a guy that threw 1000 inninings in the era of the easiest save rules there ever was deserves to make the Hall of Fame before any starting pitcher who won as many 100-120 games in the ML. One of Smith's best seasons for saves with 43, he had a 4.50 ERA. How other pitchers runs did this guy allow that he inherited when he allowed 4.5 earned runs per 9 of his own. Quite truthfully in those days, these guys were all failed starters or not good enough to start in the first place, then the guy gets about 200 cheap saves among a number which won't be in the top ten in about 15 years and he's a Hall of Famer.

I was there when Koufax was in his prime and think what renown and fame Halliday has and double it. He was the king of a pitchers decade on what was a flagship franchise. There was no Red Sox nation--there were only the Yankees and Dodgers. I won't throw my usual numbers out here because EdgarFan and Swampboy did a great job. There is not one day of Rice or Murphy's career when they had the dominance or charisma of Sandy Koufax. Short careers of utter brilliance are much more what a superstar is about than just good numbers for 18 or 20 years that stack up. Even the players such as Aaron or Mays talk with reverence about a Sandy Koufax, a reverence that they knew they were in the Major Leagues when they faced someone like him. Just remember one more thing, if Koufax had pitched today he would have had Tommy John surgery that would have saved his career, he wouldn't have had to pitch World Series games on two days rest with an elbow that blew up like a balloon after the game. Oh, and the game he pitched was a shutout by the way. And he did this kind of stuff during his five seasons that were off the chart. Two many people feel the Hall of Fame is about accumulating large counting numbers from countless 25 HR seasons or 16 win seasons when true brilliance is like a meteor. You know what it is when you've seen it.

Also, the year he had 14 wins that was mentioned, he did that in just over half a year, his arm was just being pitched off, that's all.

I didn't see your post, Swampboy until I had written mine. That is the perfect comparison of a true Hall of Fame pitcher and a very good almost Hall of Fame pitcher.

My vote for the greatest player in MLB history would be for Willie Mays. Even if Willie is not the best, he is in the conversation.
Here is part of Willie's comments on Koufax:

"I knew every pitch he was going to throw and still I couldn't hit him."

In a time of great pitchers...Spahn, Marichal and the like, Koufax was on a different level and earned his 1st ballot HOF vote.

It's no secret that I'm a Dodgers Fan, born and raised to Bleed Blue. I was only one year's old when Koufax pitched his final year in the MLB, so I obviously have to rely on people that were there in that era. My dad grew up in Los Angeles, and watched the Koufax/Drysdale duo pitch in their prime. According to him, Koufax was the greatest pitcher of All Time. The fact that number 32 had to hang up his cleats after only 12 seasons didn't keep him out of the HOF, and the numbers that EdgarFan and Swampboy posted support his election to the Hall...plain and simple.

In case anybody wonders if he made his living off the easy guys, here are how guys did against him in BATTING AVERAGE:

Dick Allen future MVP- 8 for 35 ave. .229
Richie Ashburn-batting champ- 11 for 51 ave. .216
Ken Boyer MVP- 26 for 112 ave. .232
Ernie Banks- 23 for 133 ave. .173
Lou Brock- 12 for 65 ave. .185
Rico Carty- 0 for 18 ave. .000
Dick Groat MVP batting titleist- 24 for 133 ave. .180
Alex Johnson future batting champ- 2 for 19 ave. .105
Harvey Kuenn-batting champ- 8 for 70 ave. .114
Willie McCovey- 6 for 42 ave. .143
Joe Morgan- 7 for 29 ave. .241
Tony Perez- 5 for 25 ave. .200
Frank Robinson- 24 for 103 ave. .233
Pete Rose- 10 for 57 ave. .175
Ron Santo- 18 for 78 ave. .231
Willie Stargell- 2 for 23 ave. .087
Rusty Staub- 5 for 33 ave. .152
Joe Torre- 13 for 59 ave. .220
Bill White- 18 for 102 ave. .176
Billy Williams- 17 for 68 ave. .250
Jimmy Wynn- 7 for 34 ave. .206

Guys who hit Ok or better against Koufax:

Henry Aaron who killed him- 42 for 116 ave. .362 with 7HRs
Orlando Cepeda- 23 for 80 ave. .288
Roberto Clemente- 33 for 111 ave. .297
Eddie Mathews- 25 for 89 ave. .281
Willie Mays- 27 for 97 ave. .278 with 5 HRs
Stan Musial- 13 for 38 ave. .342

quote:

Originally posted by Swampboy:
RJM, You think Sandy Koufax shouldn't be in the hall but Jack Morris should be.

Here's your next challenge. Cut and paste where I posted Koufax should not be in the Hall of Fame.

quote:

Originally posted by justbaseball:
Game, set...match!

Same challenge. Cut and paste where I posted Koufax should not be in the Hall of Fame.

quote:

Originally posted by Three Bagger:
The sacrilege is that any posters think someone like Lee Smith is a Hall of Famer and Koufax isn't.

Same challenge. Here's your next challenge. Cut and paste where I posted Koufax should not be in the Hall of Fame.

quote:

Originally posted by RJM:

quote:

Originally posted by Swampboy:

RJM, You think Sandy Koufax shouldn't be in the hall but Jack Morris should be.

"Here's your next challenge. Cut and paste where I posted Koufax should not be in the Hall of Fame."

I already rose to that challenge, in the Current HOF List for 2012 thread. I challenge you to actually engage in that debate. To quote you, from earlier in this thread, "where's the explanation" for your opinion that Morris is deserving (especially in light of your apparent position that Koufax is not)? How can you differentiate between a guy like Jamie Moyer and a guy like Jack Morris if all you do is put your hands over your ears and say "wins, wins, wins!"

I incorporate by reference everything I said in the Current HOF List for 2012 thread (here and here) here too. Plus everything Swampboy said.



Your turn. Defend your position....

I repeat, the challenge is cut and paste where I said Koufax does not belong in the Hall of Fame.

Actually I'll save all of you the time. I never said it. Since the board has been somewhat dull lately I posed the question. It's a question I've seen asked before.

If there's a point to it all if you look at some of the people who make the Hall and some who don't it's head scratching.

I've heard all different kinds of criteria. The magic numbers (3,000 hits, 500 homers, 300 wins), the best seven consecutive seasons. The best ten seasons. How they match up with other Hall of Famers.

It's a very convoluted process. Sometimes it depends on how writers feel about players personally. Look at the current PED eligibles. Jim Rice probably would have been in a few years sooner if he hadn't been flippant and cool all his career towards sportswriters. Some writers have their own little ground rules. Then there's the character element. Are they looking for Boy Scouts or baseball players? Other than Rose writers personally decide where the character line is drawn.

RJM, I suppose it is technically true you never directly asserted Koufax doesn't belong because you did put question marks after all your statements suggesting he might not.

I'd hate to put words in your mouth, so let me ask you this: Are you saying that your defense against the charge of being too dim to recognize Koufax's self-evident superiority to Morris is that you were just being a PITA?

WIth your credentials, that defense might just work.

Just RJM being RJM?

I think this was a perfectly legitimate question based on the fact of Koufax's short period of dominance. This thread turned into shooting the messenger, make that questioner. There wouldn't be many presidential debates if the moderator was attacked after every tough question.

Bottom line is he probably deserves to be in the HOF but there are good arguments on both sides of the question.

I disagree, there are no "good arguments" for excluding the most transcendently brilliant LHP of the last 50 years from the HoF.

Note: When viewed in the context of his dominance, lack of 300 wins and a comparatively short career (which is still 20% longer than the minimum set forth in the HoF's by-laws) are not "good arguments." They are irrelevant quibbles.

An inane proposition doesn't became debatable just because some fool lines up to argue it.

I've never heard a single person who covered or played the game when Koufax played express any opposition to or even minor reservations about his induction. Have you?

I have not heard of any opposition to Koufax being in the HOF but I have heard the question about length of dominance.

I certainly don't have to, or want to, defend RJM but I don't see where he ever said he shouldn't be in.

This seems like an odd discussion to get all hot and bothered over IMO.

I thought this thread was going to be about that guy that the Vet's Committee just voted in...

I'm neither hot nor bothered.

I generally respect people who will stake out an unpopular opinion and try to defend it.

However, I have little patience for people who raise stupid questions just to stir the pot, then disassociate themselves from the premise of their question.

RJM,

I'll give you that you didn't directly say Koufax shouldn't be in the Hall of Fame, but if you're the one who asks the question even as a devil's advocate, then the answers are going to be directed toward you. Besides, if someone truly thinks Jack Morris should be in based on the shallow criteria given, then maybe it is possible that person truly doesn't believe Koufax should be in the Hall. I think there has been more than enough evidence that he was not only a Hall of Fame caliber pitcher but actually one of the greatest lefhanders of all time. On any baseball board it is expected that someone who takes a position such as Koufax might not deserve the Hall or Morris does deserve the Hall goes a little more in depth with their reasoning than that one won the fewest games of a Hall of Famer or that one won the most games during an arbitrary ten year period. That kind of stuff says nothing without other evidence being presented.

quote:

Should Sandy Koufax be in the Hall of Fame?

What?

Really?

You are kidding........ right?

Note 1: I never compared Morris to Koufax. I made an argument for why Morris should be in the HOF.

Note 2: One of the points made about some stats is they didn't perform at a high level long enough. I never stated whether Koufax should be in or not. I posed the question against the short term of his greatness.

Quote from someone else: An inane proposition doesn't became debatable just because some fool lines up to argue it.

Since we're now at the person attack level over a question I'll refrain from doing anything further to liven up a slow offseason board.

quote:

Note 1: I never compared Morris to Koufax. I made an argument for why Morris should be in the HOF.

That's called a distinction without a difference, RJM. Technically, you are correct because you talked about them in different threads. However, since the conversations spilled over onto each other and you were pumping Morris's miracle decade at the same time you were, technically, not questioning Koufax's credentials, the effect was the same as a comparison.

Yes, you carved out a little niche of deniability, but that leaves my question from earlier: Do you really think Morris is more deserving than Koufax, or were you just stirring the pot?

I never put the two conversations together in my mind. I was looking through HOF Fame stats. When I saw Koufax's win totals I remembered seeing an article on the topic once and thought it would be a good topic of conversation given the board has been slow.

The underlying point is the subjectivity of what is an HOF'er. I've seen articles stating a string of seven consecutive best season or ten consecutive seasons as a guideline. Some see the magic caeer numbers (500, 3,000, 300) as needed. Since Koufax fits none of these I thought it was worthy of conversation. As PG stated Koufax is a very unique situation.