Shoulder load....

The shoulders or shoulder muscles (and bicep muscles) are lifters so they cannot exert force into the swing.

By lifting the arms though to a degree that stretches the arm muscles and core muscles, the shoulders are essential in the load position.

Once the arms are below shoulder level the shoulders do act more as a linkage and aid in controling the bat along with back muscles, but in my view this is subconscious movement.

The shoulder tilt that helps deliver the bat to the ball at the proper angle is more a result of the myriad core muscles again subconsciously if the eyes are on the point of contact.

(I often remind batters that there should be no bicep tension in the swing.)

.

Hey Bluedog,

I'm not sure I am commenting on what you were asking, but I think of shoulder turn as a load factor because it increases the distance from the barrel to the hitting area.

If you go to MLB or some other media, when a player completes his load you can see the name or at least part of it when he is at the "apex" of his load. This increased distance is suppose to increase bat speed.

There is a payoff. The barrel and knob are farther from the contact area with a front shoulder turn (load).

Bonds dad told him he was turning too much to the shortstop at load. He worked on keeping his shoulders on a line to second (more). He lowers his front shoulder at load, as does Sosa, etc.

I like this approach better than teaching a front shoulder turn. This keeps a player shorter to the zone and they lose some batspeed, but the trade-off isn't there (unless the kid is really small).

Whatever gets loaded must unload the hands.

Hip load must unload the hands.

Shoulder load must unload the hands.

Everything has to work to help the hands create an instantaneous launch.

Grab the bat...put the hands where you like them....everything you load must help the hands turn the barrel.

Does that mean a counter rotation of the torso?
Does that mean a Justin Upton lead hip c o c k?
Does that mean a load into the back hip?
Does that mean a scap load?
Does that mean a lowered lead shoulder like Bonds?

It will most likely be individual to you.

But whatever you do, it must help the hands turn the barrel.....immediately.....at go.

Just thinking to myself here, while trying to make the movements. Is it possible to load one shoulder without the other if you are holding onto the bat with both hands? I also agree with Chameleon that what gets loaded should get unloaded with the hands. My question to that though, is, does it matter in what order you do it in? It feels to me like I can keep my front shoulder loaded longer when I do your bat to Catcher motion and it unloads almost completely when I don't. Is that right? I guess I'm saying it doesn't unload until commitment in the motions you advocate.

quote:

Grab the bat...put the hands where you like them....everything you load must help the hands turn the barrel.

I agree...And, that's why.....

I believe the shoulders need to stay tension-free as the rear elbow lowers......This allows the hands to turn the barrel and carry the arc out front....

IMO, tension in the shoulders, or load, would be a scenario for the shoulders to power the swing...I don't see loading the shoulders as a scenario where the hands and arms need to be free to turn the barrel.....

Torquing the handle of the bat at "go" and shoulder rotation producing the "go" are very different....

If you're gonna power the swing with the hands and hips, then the hands and hips need to load and unload.......The shoulders will just do whatever they do as they are a linkage, and will produce no power as they will be by-passed..........

If you're gonna power with the hips and shoulders, then the hips and shoulders need to load and unload......Shoulders load to keep the connection with the hands and arms to the shoulder....The load should lock them in until the shoulders unload, which should be late in the shoulder rotation........

quote:

Originally posted by micmeister:
does it matter in what order you do it in? It feels to me like I can keep my front shoulder loaded longer when I do your bat to Catcher motion and it unloads almost completely when I don't. Is that right? I guess I'm saying it doesn't unload until commitment in the motions you advocate.

IMO.....holding the bat in the optimal setting (varies for everyone and you may or may not have found it yet).....and telling the body you're about to "snap the pole"....is all that is needed.

The body will load and prep as necessary to make that move the best it can.

Tell the body what you want to do. Hold the hands where you want the body to do it from. (you will have to experiment) Let the body do it.

I believe the conscious thought is in the upcoming hand/forearm movement....turning the barrel rearward....not in what the body needs to do.

I don't feel any great load in the shoulders when I swing. I would say they feel "stable", "clamped down" as I heard Tom.guerry say once, like there isn't going to be any slop or slippage in the scaps. I do like a little sway...or a slight movement of the hands rearward as part of a slight counter rotation of the torso. I don't move much. I don't abandon my handset and have to come back to it. I guess I start slightly "out of" handset and go to it. I just get a litte running start into my running start. A little movement to break inertia I guess.



As to the handset....I call it the "swearing in" position. If you're a right handed batter, raise your right hand as if you're about to be sworn in. Close your hand into a fist and that, IMO, is very close to the optimal handset for most people. That being said....I'm sure you can find a mlb player different. Individual differences rule. That is the spot that the barrel can be swiveled rearward, at "go", the most efficiently. With no unnecessary slack or slop or movement.

P.S. Ortiz creates his stretch against stationery hands for the most part. He has forward movement, then his hips open, all while his hands are stationery. Stretch created. Watch his barrel direction at "go".

quote:

Originally posted by Chameleon:

quote:

Originally posted by micmeister:
does it matter in what order you do it in? It feels to me like I can keep my front shoulder loaded longer when I do your bat to Catcher motion and it unloads almost completely when I don't. Is that right? I guess I'm saying it doesn't unload until commitment in the motions you advocate.

IMO.....holding the bat in the optimal setting (varies for everyone and you may or may not have found it yet).....and telling the body you're about to "snap the pole"....is all that is needed.

The body will load and prep as necessary to make that move the best it can.

Tell the body what you want to do. Hold the hands where you want the body to do it from. (you will have to experiment) Let the body do it.

I believe the conscious thought is in the upcoming hand/forearm movement....turning the barrel rearward....not in what the body needs to do.

I don't feel any great load in the shoulders when I swing. I would say they feel "stable", "clamped down" as I heard Tom.guerry say once, like there isn't going to be any slop or slippage in the scaps. I do like a little sway...or a slight movement of the hands rearward as part of a slight counter rotation of the torso. I don't move much. I don't abandon my handset and have to come back to it. I guess I start slightly "out of" handset and go to it. I just get a litte running start into my running start. A little movement to break inertia I guess.



As to the handset....I call it the "swearing in" position. If you're a right handed batter, raise your right hand as if you're about to be sworn in. Close your hand into a fist and that, IMO, is very close to the optimal handset for most people. That being said....I'm sure you can find a mlb player different. Individual differences rule. That is the spot that the barrel can be swiveled rearward, at "go", the most efficiently. With no unnecessary slack or slop or movement.

P.S. Ortiz creates his stretch against stationery hands for the most part. He has forward movement, then his hips open, all while his hands are stationery. Stretch created. Watch his barrel direction at "go".

I'm most definitely with you on the torqueing the handle part and had even figured out a long time ago that it was a running start that guys like Sheffield were doing with that huge forward **** of the bat, but didn't really know how to do it and thought it would be a huge timing issue, but you've proven me wrong in that aspect. What I'm trying to figure out now is, it's relation to the stretch. I'm thinking that if I just stretch by pushing my hands back and stepping forward and start the barrel forward at that point my stretch is unwinding at that point too. But, when I take the barrel rearward, I keep that stretch even though I am tucking my elbow in both instances. Is that true?

Yes.

Sending the barrel rearward, is a running start that doesn't use up the stretch until "go". In fact, it is part of the stretch creation process. The barrel gets a running start, without commitment, and IF commitment is made, you still have the stretch to aid in the "launch and spend".

Compare that to if you sent the barrel forward at "go". There would be no running start. No early batspeed. You'd use up the stretch immediately. You'd be committing immediately.

And worse yet.....you could not make any last second adjustments because the hands have already been committed to the ball.

If the barrel is sent rearward at "go", you have early batspeed without commitment AND high adjustability.

This allows you extra read time.

As to tucking or slotting the elbow. It goes there but you don't do it. IMO, torquing the handle is the thought. IF you torque the handle, the elbow will slot.

IMO, it's a no teach....unless you're trying to do what Ryan Howard does....get a running start into handle torque.

quote:

Originally posted by Chameleon:
Yes.

Sending the barrel rearward, is a running start that doesn't use up the stretch until "go". In fact, it is part of the stretch creation process. The barrel gets a running start, without commitment, and IF commitment is made, you still have the stretch to aid in the "launch and spend".

Compare that to if you sent the barrel forward at "go". There would be no running start. No early batspeed. You'd use up the stretch immediately. You'd be committing immediately.

And worse yet.....you could not make any last second adjustments because the hands have already been committed to the ball.

If the barrel is sent rearward at "go", you have early batspeed without commitment AND high adjustability.

This allows you extra read time.

As to tucking or slotting the elbow. It goes there but you don't do it. IMO, torquing the handle is the thought. IF you torque the handle, the elbow will slot.

IMO, it's a no teach....unless you're trying to do what Ryan Howard does....get a running start into handle torque.

Okay! Thanks! I'm going to have to PM you for the next question, since I don't want to start anymore arguments. Not with you, but....anyway.

That was a very Rogerclemens SugarRay-esque retirement from the HSBBW. Welcome back Micmiester.

quote:

Originally posted by deemax:
That was a very Rogerclemens SugarRay-esque retirement from the HSBBW. Welcome back Micmiester.

Just going to try to keep the advice to myself and maybe some PM stuff for arguments. Just finally figured out that advice is best left to the Pros on a public forum. I'll use this for questions only unless someone asks for my opinion on something.

blue dog -

*****'s latest recollection of what he meant by scap loading:

http://www.setprotrainingforums.com/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=10

Very confusing mix of how muscles stretch/unstretch, how certain range of motion is prepared for and executed and what scap is being talked about.

To N+man's credit he identified undertsanding how the shoulders function as crucial to how you swing, even if it involves bypass or attention elsewhere.

He got a lot right about shoulder function in throwing, but totally missed the boat for hitting "function".

In throwing the quick "load/unload" is tantamount to symmetric pinch/unpinch which is pretty well described as horizontal aDduction(pinch) and horizontal aBduction (unpinch) of scaps/shoulder blades where both the time course of the load unload and the direction of motion are pretty easy to describe together.

Wolforth called this the "second" bow-arch-bow in the ***** bow arch bow model and Wolforth improved Nym+n's drills becasue he understood glove arm action and the big picture better than Nyma+n.

When you try top take this mixing of muscle stretch/load/cusp dynamics and direction of/range of motion to the hitting swing where the upper body action is alternating rather than symmetric and where motions other than horizontal aB/AD duction are primary, then the whole attempt at description falls apart and he just says its all about how to maintain the box and manipulate the knob.

Not very useful, mostly confusing.

In hitting, the proper loading sequence is primarily due to back arm actyioon/sequence which is similar to the back arm action of the symmetric throwing motion.

Internal rotation and lifting of the back arm is the key controller telling the body and scaps what to do. If you don't get that right, the pattern will not be easy to find.

I'm happt to try to address any specifics, but I think you know this stuff at least as well as I do.

Tom, your incessant pecking away at trying to get people to realize that arm action is king in throwing and can, and should, be applied to hitting as well, has been well appreciated by me....

Your persistence, along with the persistence of Donny and Swingbuilder, is what got my attention.....Then, Richard got on board and I looked even closer at what you guys were saying....

Thought this might add to this conversation,I am sure many of you have already read it but it is interesting.

Check out the last paragraph and the correlation between the front leg plant and shoulder rotation.

http://www.chrisoleary.com/projects/Baseball/Hitting/Re...bertPujolsSwing.html

Tfox, that's fine and dandy if you believe the shoulders are a power producer and swing the bat...

I don't....I believe the shoulders are a linkage and get by-passed....

IMO,there is no way they can be bypassed completely because they are connected.

Again,IMO,if you can speed your shoulders up,you will speed your bat up by default.

In my minds eye,when the shoulders speed up,they are assisting the arms and therfore the hands.


Basically,I believe it all plays a role.


If your hands bypass the shoulders,looks to me like you would lose the rubberband effect.

But the bat is being turned in a plane that doesn't match the shoulders.

Shoulder turn (not their turn resulting from hip rotation) degrades batspeed.

When you do anything physical do you ever think of your shoulders? I can't think of one instance where I do. However I think about my hands all the time. Interesting.......

I want to point out a couple of things:

• Many of you are talking about bat tipping. First I disagree but that's another story. If I do as you say and tip, aren't I then tipping by raising my back elbow. If so, try that and not include the scapula. Impossible.
• That Scapula is loaded anyway regardless of whether you tip or not. It is a part of the main trunk or torso. I has to be loaded in order for it to properly function within the swing.
• Many of you have argued about a type of "negative rotation" wherein the upper body rotates to a slight degree toward the catcher and away from the pitcher. I believe one of you even went as far as to describe showing your shoulder to the pitcher. It is impossible to do so without loading the scapula region.
• Finally, a year back many of you were stating in no uncertain terms that tension must be present in all phases of the swing process for the kenetic chain to properly link during the swing. Tension would include the shoulder region in my opinion.

Observation, even when I maintain tilt, I feel a sense of tension in the scapula region. While it might not be excessive, it is there. Chameleon showed one of his creative demonstrations holding that pole. I will state that doing so per his drill is impossible without the shoulder region feeling tension. JMHO!

Scapula loading or "scap load" as popular instructors refer to it, as a way to improve pitching velocity, may go down as the most irresponsible piece of coaching advice since weighted baseballs.

Then we have the famous towel drill designed to help a pitcher get more arm extension so he is closer to the plate at ball release. This too does not work as proposed and is far from a valuable tool for improving pitching mechanics.

Kerry Wood, Mark Prior, Rich Harden, Carl Pavano, Jaret Wright. These are all pitchers who were highly regarded and yet have had constant arm problems over the past several years.

I call them "upper body" throwers.

They all try to get their velocity from their upper body and arm instead of by using their lower bodies to take the stress from their arm.


It has no value in hitting either.

.

So, your saying that the shoulders are just along for the ride. Interesting. The hands do all of the work and the shoulders do nothing. I wonder what we'd see if they hit without shirts. I'm betting we'd see a lot more than you think in that shoulder region.

Per the pitching and scapula loading, I've talked to several college coaches at any number of levels. I'd bet that more of them use scapula loading drills for both their catchers and pitchers than don't. Of course, if we buy into the fact that the hands don't need the shoulders then I would guess that logically that would apply to pitching as well.

I'm not buying into that.

You would see contraction (or flex) of the triceps and forearms. Muscles work by contraction.

Giving conscious credit to the muscles and bones located in the back is as frivolous as making an issue of quad flex of the front leg.

.

2 words.

Tom Seaver

May not have had the most wins - or the most K's - or the best anything but:

He used his arms and his legs as good as any pitcher I have ever seen.

All IMO.

Actually, what he may be saying is....

Teach what is important.

Proper hand action will allow everything else to fall into place from which reps will perfect.

What is the bigger "snipe".

Loading the front hip into the rear hip and the rear hip into the front hip. (PCR rotation/load)

OR...

Turning the direction of the knob with the scaps.(hook in the hand path)

quote:

Again,IMO,if you can speed your shoulders up,you will speed your bat up by default.

Thats is a incorrect statement and one made without any lab work done. To the contrary, if you emphasize the shoulders you will SLOW the bat not speed it up. There isn't one good hitter in the game who thicks or emphasizes the shoulders in the swing. Forget the shoulders they are not a driver of the swing what so ever!

B25, if you tip the bat with the elbow you have applied movement to create momentum. But, you would be better served to tip by using the hands and not so much the elbow. EIther way let it happen naturally. Also B25, you know as well as anyone that the shoulders do not drive the hands, nor does your internet mentor demonstrate it. Are you on his payrole? MAN!

quote:

Tom Seaver used his arms and his legs as good as any pitcher I have ever seen.

or did he use his middle or core as good as any pitcher you ever saw?

I wasn't stating that you should concentrate on speeding them(shoulders) up.I was going off the breakdown of Pujols on the link that said his shoulders sped up when he planted,that will speed the bat up by default is what I was trying to relay.


When concentrating on the shoulders,it would seem to me you would tense them and that would slow the bat so I agree with you there,but if the shoulders are sped up through the rubberband effect ,that should speed the bat up,imo.

quote:

Originally posted by Vance34:
[QUOTE]

B25, if you tip the bat with the elbow you have applied movement to create momentum. But, you would be better served to tip by using the hands and not so much the elbow. EIther way let it happen naturally. Also B25, you know as well as anyone that the shoulders do not drive the hands, nor does your internet mentor demonstrate it. Are you on his payrole? MAN!

Jeff, though you are posting under a different identity here, you know that you come with the same agenda as Richard. That is ironic for someone who once taught the same stuff and of whom once asked that "other person" questions. No, I'm not on his payroll and do not discuss his philosophy in detail on this site per our agreements. It is apparent that a few posters from Richard's site have now collectively come to this site to attack anyone that doesn't believe as they do but also to attack anyone that believe in "that other person's" philosophy. Promote what you believe in and that is fine. Otherwise...

quote:

........if the shoulders are sped up through the rubberband effect ,that should speed the bat up,imo.

Tfox, only if you are powering with the shoulders....

If you are powering with the hands and hips, the shoulders get by-passed and they simply don't matter in the scheme of things.....

It truly is, one or the other....

Expecting the hips to turn, and expecting that turn to turn the shoulders, which then turns the arms which turns the hands and then the barrel is a recipe for failure.

Will ANY of them get in a live batters box?

Until they do they won't "see" what many are beginning to see.

Because before you can "see" it you must "feel" it.

Once you've felt it, you'll see it....or the lack of it....all the time.

The way I'm wired....if someone was making this claim, against what I believe, I would be the first one in the batters box to rule it "in" or "out".

None of THEM have ever applied their theory against live pitching.....

They just prey on the hopeful.

This clip shows the difference "in the batters box".



The clip on the left is under their teaching. The clip on the right is under the Second Engine teaching. They will acknowledge the clip on the right is the better swing and in so doing claim that he is finally doing what they suggested. lol. Yet, they can not duplicate it with their teaching. I've requested a duplication for several months now. They will not produce one. Because they can't with their teaching.

They know that by now. But they WILL NOT acknowledge the "source" of that better swing.

They just like to talk about "anger".

lol

P.S. tfox.....shoulder rotation exists in the swing on the left.....that swing is built on the "chain" passing energy to the shoulders.

There is no shoulder rotation in the swing on the right.

Example

There is no shoulder rotation in the swing on the right.[/QUOTE]


It looks as though the back shoulder is turning at go. What is causing this? The back arm is assisting the swing in this swing on the right


Shocker,

That's strong. Remove the video evidence that clearly shows they are off base.

It's always nice to feel like the playing field is level.

Your members need to know about your affiliation with them. That you will do whatever necessary to keep the truth from being shown.

It is amazing to what length's they will go to protect their hitting theory.

They must hate video of the best hitters in the world. It really exposes them.

I'm glad I don't have to whine and continually politicize the issues, rather than stand on my beliefs.

paralysis by analysis

quote:

Originally posted by Shocker:
It looks as though the back shoulder is turning at go. What is causing this? The back arm is assisting the swing in this swing on the right

What you are noticing is the difference....THE HUGE DIFFERENCE....between lateral tilt of the shoulders at "go" and shoulder rotation.

The explosiveness and power difference is not even comparable.

B25, I got an email today from a friend of mine. Steve has asked me this before. Seems like it was 2 years ago. I rarely post here. I am not the other guy. I'll say this to you, have a great basketball season and a great baseball season and please watch your wisdom. You would better serve if you used your wisdom internally.

quote:

Originally posted by swingbuilder:
B25, I got an email today from a friend of mine. Steve has asked me this before. Seems like it was 2 years ago. I rarely post here. I am not the other guy. I'll say this to you, have a great basketball season and a great baseball season and please watch your wisdom. You would better serve if you used your wisdom internally.

I don't know about all of the "Steve stuff." A quote used was by Vance was the exact quote used by you on another site. Thus...

I read all of the sites because hitting is a passion. In doing so, certain "styles" form and certain phrases become mantras that are used over and over.

quote:

Originally posted by Chameleon:
That's strong. Remove the video evidence that clearly shows they are off base.

It's always nice to feel like the playing field is level.

Your members need to know about your affiliation with them. That you will do whatever necessary to keep the truth from being shown.

It is amazing to what length's they will go to protect their hitting theory.

They must hate video of the best hitters in the world. It really exposes them.

I'm glad I don't have to whine and continually politicize the issues, rather than stand on my beliefs.

That would be the same video of professionals that you used to bully members for years supporting the position you now attack. Also, and again, let me point out this quote YOU MADE 2 WEEKS BEFORE YOU WERE THROWN OFF OF THE OTHER SITE. IN THIS QUOTE YOU ADMIT, IN YOUR OWN WORDS, THAT YOU DIDN'T UNDERSTAND WHAT YOU WERE SUPPOSED TO BE DOING AND NOW, YOU USE VIDEO OF YOUR SON IN A "BEFORE AND AFTER" CONTEXT KNOWING THAT YOU NEVER UNDERSTOOD WHAT YOU WERE SUPPOSED TO BE COACHING IN THE FIRST PLACE:


"When I met with Steve in Texas, the first thing I noticed, while standing live, next to Steve, was that his bat unhinged differently. I couldn't figure it out. I even asked hiim if he was "throwing the barrel" to the ball. Of course, that's not it. But, it wasn't until I saw Video #17 and saw the "swiveling" of the top hand as it sat on top of a vertical back forearm that I said "aha. We don't do that". You might recall the post I made when I first noticed it. Joof was working on the same or similar topic at the time. I asked Steve if it really does swivel like that and he said it did. Then, that clip of Manny really shows it. It was such a discovery for us that I thought it could help others. I have no doubt, that knowing this sooner would have made a huge difference in our "rate of learning". "


Again, Richard's own words. When he mentions an agenda that I have, I sent Richard a pm stating the opinion of MN-Mom and other Moderators that we were fine with what he was doing here and promoting his stuff as long as it didn't include the attacks on others. Notice that Richard never attacks the other "hitting gurus." Why? Why not attack Epstein, Peavy, Mankin ... Well, the reason is that they did not throw him off of a website where he was not only active but had also asked Steve (Yes, I can produce a copy of the email.) to go into business with him on a hitting facility in St. Louis. Thus his anger and all of the attacks. He has always refered to me a "arrogant" etc. I don't mind but, in truth, I was one of the few moderators that stood up for him to keep the priviledge of posting here. He has now lost my support.

The video he posted and that I removed is yet another attempt at "voodo video" by Richard. He knows full well that the swing is a demo swing of a particular aspect of the swing. Not unlike "break down swings" many of you have done placing emphasis on one portion of the swing and so ... You, (members of this site) would have no way of knowing that and so, Richard, in his extreme hatred of Steve, would be swaying you even more that he is now the greatest hitting guru on the planet. His ego demands that. However, he has not developed a DVD, etc.

Finally, wheter I post anything or Richard or... remember we all have agendas. I don't post my hitting theory on this site and would have left Richard alone had he met the terms of agreement for all members of this site. He did not and was warned the consequences. That warning was NOT ONLY FROM ME. His posts after that were totally in violation of that warning and was, in my opinion a demand that we boot him from the site.