OK, I do understand that a long, restful break is essential for arm health. What I can't seem to find solid information on is the meaning of "shutting down" the arm. Is this zero throwing for 2-3 months? Is it just no pitching? What about long-toss?
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None. Zero, Zip. Nada. No means no.
We're in the middle of my position player 2021 Kid taking 2 months off from throwing and he informs me that they are playing Flag Football in gym class and "can I play Quarterback?" Lord have mercy.
To answer the OP's question: it should be no throwing, at all, nothing.
My concern is when is the next time he can take 2 months off from throwing? Once we start him up again October 15th after two months off, the next opportunity for a break will likely be in late October 2018 after Fall Ball is finished.
Not a fan of this philosophy. Shut down from competitive throwing? Yes. Lighten the load? Sure. A complete shutdown - no throwing? I know of no other athletic activity or motion where this would be considered a good idea. Muscles and proprioception simply don't work like that. I think this notion causes more harm than good.
Interesting, Roothog. Dr James Andrews suggests a complete shut down from throwing for 2-3 months every year. Doesn't mean you can't lift weights/workout during that time. Just no throwing.
A lot of medical experts say that year round overhead throwing is a leading cause of arm injuries
roothog66 posted:Not a fan of this philosophy. Shut down from competitive throwing? Yes. Lighten the load? Sure. A complete shutdown - no throwing? I know of no other athletic activity or motion where this would be considered a good idea. Muscles and proprioception simply don't work like that. I think this notion causes more harm than good.
I am not terribly well read when it comes to arm care as it just gets too complicated if you try to understand the underlying science. That said, the whole complete shutdown approach has always seemed rather extreme. In basic terms, my understanding is that the break is designed to allow complete healing of all the various micro tears, but I don't really understand how some activities are acceptable (for instance the dual sport kid playing QB) while overhand throwing of a baseball - at any level - is considered unacceptable. I just cannot believe some level of throwing would totally disrupt whatever healing is supposed to occur. If the actual protocol had the kid in a sling for 2 months, that would make more sense (i.e. immobile for the duration), but isolating this one motion among all the other allowed motions just doesn't feel like the entire answer. It sort of feels like an easy, understandable program that has some benefits (certainly keeps the kid from pitching at 100%) but perhaps has some downside.
Has anyone seen any solid analysis of what impact low stress throwing might have on the perceived benefits that stem from a complete shutdown? Conversely, has any seen any solid analysis on the benefits of continuing low stress throwing? I am not arguing against the shutdown, just wondering what folks are looking into these days. Next thing you know, someone will say throwing curveballs at 12yo is not dangerous (oh yea, someone has already said that here).
Dr James Andrews
I believe key factors here are several in making this decision.
#1: What age is the player?
#2: What stage of maturity is the player, physically?
#3: How many innings have they logged & are there any arm issues currently?
Andrews & several of the other leading surgeons do recommend 2-3 months of ZERO overhand throwing in offseason, particularly for youth players. Mine is a 2021 & we had always adhered to this when he was in heavy growth stages. I think that makes sense with the growth plate issues etc.
He is now at a stage, physically (6'1" 170), where I believe taking a complete shutdown would be a negative. Our Fall season ends in October. After this, we intend to throw 2X / Week moderately, no mound. Some 80% long toss & a little flat ground & work on secondary pitch feel. Play catch & mix in change up grip & spin some. There will be ZERO max effort throwing & certainly no extreme long toss or heavy ball throwing.
Max Scherzer has adopted this type of program after years of trial & error & complaining of the difficulties & soreness that would always flare as you try to crank it back up in the Spring after a complete shut down.
This method keeps the gains you have made during the season & prevents atrophy of the throwing structures WITHOUT significant risk associated with year round pitching or heavy arm use. To me, it is logical to continue to use the throwing structures & maintain strength & stability to be better suited to enter into the Spring as opposed to a complete shut down for those players who are fully, or close to fully developed physically.
Bingo - "None, zero, zip, nada".... 10-12 weeks is phenomenal if you can. Work backwards from when the season starts, then the couple of weeks when you start throwing a bull pen to ramp up to full speed. This will help dictate when you should start the shut down so you get max rest.
Suggest you look into a reputable throwing program in your area. They'll be working key strength and balance in your lower half and back, as well as throwing patterns, so that the player is prime condition by the time he starts to throw. This can be down in addition to the off season strength program - just work in sufficient rest in between all workouts, and avoid doubling up on exercising the same body part.
My totally uneducated and non proven opinion is that for my son (2020) he needs time to not pitch, or do the pitching motion. Half of his wear and tear is from DEcelerating his arm after he throws. Going to have the same problem in long toss....it's the same motion and the same deceleration issue. I plan to shut him down for 2-3 months but during that time do a weighted ball program...his arm won't be moving as fast and my hope is his deceleration muscles will have time to do the healing they need.
Caco, Totally respect what you relate above. I am certainly by no means an expert here by any stretch as well & just trying to common sense my way through it but I have to ask this.
Logically, how is throwing a 12 oz (weighted) baseball at max effort better for resting the arm or healing decel muscle superior to throwing a 5oz baseball at 80%? This makes no sense to me.
Related question: thoughts on Jaeger Band work during the time off from throwing? Yes or no?
Next thing you know, someone will say throwing curveballs at 12yo is not dangerous (oh yea, someone has already said that here).
Yeah, I've said that here and everywhere else because every single study done on the subject backs this contention up and not one study has been able to prove the hypothesis that curve balls thrown by youth pitchers lead to an increases in injury rates - not one. That includes ASMI studies done under the direction of Dr. Andrews. However, that's an srgument for another post.
Part of the difficulty or challenge is that the year-round playing of baseball also correlates with . . . um . . . being better at baseball.
We're now seeing northern states producing more D1 players and high draft picks. How are they doing it? By building indoor facilities that enable year round training. And everyone knows about the Dominicans success in baseball, playing year-round (and the Floridians, and Californians, etc.)
The elephant in the room is that the highest, by far, risk factor for TJ is . . . pitching. But Andrews and Cressey can't come out and say "don't pitch." [BTW, I overheard an MLB area scout say about a HS kid who is a two-way player: "with a swing like that, why would you ever get on a mound?" Interesting viewpoint, IMO]
Steve A. posted:Caco, Totally respect what you relate above. I am certainly by no means an expert here by any stretch as well & just trying to common sense my way through it but I have to ask this.
Logically, how is throwing a 12 oz (weighted) baseball at max effort better for resting the arm or healing decel muscle superior to throwing a 5oz baseball at 80%? This makes no sense to me.
I've been told and read, that the arm is moving much slower, and not in a pitching motion. He did the program last year and it looked more like shot-putting than pitching, he didn't grip it like a baseball and over half of it was from his knees. It's not the same.
3and2Fastball posted:
Cressey's examples deal with time off from throwing competitively and throwing programs. I completely agree with it as far as that goes. My own son and my pitchers don't do a throwing program from November 1 until the day after Christmas, but I don't shut them down from light throwing and playing catch - nothing organized as a workout. I definitely wouldn't suggest weighted ball programs in the true "off season." I slowly ramp my kids into a weighted ball program and throwing program for eight weeks scheduled to end the day official high school practices begin. That means starting about Jan 1 where I am. Where I've seen REAL problems at the high school level is with kids coming off of basketball season. If they make the playoffs, I don't get them until basically a week before our first game, they haven't thrown in months and they don't have time to roll into a pitching routine because the season is so short.
CaCO3Girl posted:Steve A. posted:Caco, Totally respect what you relate above. I am certainly by no means an expert here by any stretch as well & just trying to common sense my way through it but I have to ask this.
Logically, how is throwing a 12 oz (weighted) baseball at max effort better for resting the arm or healing decel muscle superior to throwing a 5oz baseball at 80%? This makes no sense to me.
I've been told and read, that the arm is moving much slower, and not in a pitching motion. He did the program last year and it looked more like shot-putting than pitching, he didn't grip it like a baseball and over half of it was from his knees. It's not the same.
A good weighted ball program is actual "programming" your arm into correct mechanics, so, while it may not seem the same, the components are very much the same. Also, a good weighted ball program includes underweighted balls as well where - at least theoretically - the arm motions would be faster. Honestly, without the underweight component, you don't get as much out of a weighted ball program.
Steve A. posted:Caco, Totally respect what you relate above. I am certainly by no means an expert here by any stretch as well & just trying to common sense my way through it but I have to ask this.
Logically, how is throwing a 12 oz (weighted) baseball at max effort better for resting the arm or healing decel muscle superior to throwing a 5oz baseball at 80%? This makes no sense to me.
The initial part of the shutdown is complete rest, then they phase in weighted balls, which are thrown into a net close to you along with a crow hop... I don't think they get full extension on the throw... I'm sure a few others know more about the protocol.
I get the disconnect...
3and2Fastball posted:Related question: thoughts on Jaeger Band work during the time off from throwing? Yes or no?
Yesss. That's a big part of the "shutdown" time. We shut down for 2 1/2 months every year and do band work at least 3 times a week during that time. Been great so far.
roothog66 posted:3and2Fastball posted:Cressey's examples deal with time off from throwing competitively and throwing programs. I completely agree with it as far as that goes. My own son and my pitchers don't do a throwing program from November 1 until the day after Christmas, but I don't shut them down from light throwing and playing catch - nothing organized as a workout. I definitely wouldn't suggest weighted ball programs in the true "off season." I slowly ramp my kids into a weighted ball program and throwing program for eight weeks scheduled to end the day official high school practices begin. That means starting about Jan 1 where I am. Where I've seen REAL problems at the high school level is with kids coming off of basketball season. If they make the playoffs, I don't get them until basically a week before our first game, they haven't thrown in months and they don't have time to roll into a pitching routine because the season is so short.
Yes, that's what I'm talking about. HS practice begins 1/15/18. His "shutdown" is 10/1/17-1/1/18. The weighted ball program was about 6 weeks long last year and brought him to right before Christmas. After Christmas was the ramp up, with him near 100% by HS tryouts.
He's also playing basketball for the high school, so we are trying to avoid the other scenario you mentioned.
3and2Fastball posted:Dr James Andrews
I've never been impressed with the logic that Andrews uses. For years, he preached the whole "don't throw a breaking ball until you shave" advise. His logic was that the forces on the elbow were greater and, thus, injury risk was greater. This was a logical conclusion based on a good understanding of anatomy. However, when his own organization started with this hypothesis and, as scientific theories are correctly tested, did a 10 year study and published the results, they had to come to the conclusion that it was not proven that curve balls (self-reported, so this includes ANY mechanics used) resulted in any greater injury risk than fast balls. However, he continues to preach the notion that youth pitchers shouldn't throw curves, but his logic changed. He now cites his reasoning as one of efficiency. In a way it makes sense. His theory is that pitchers who throw curves at younger ages have greater success and, because of this success, are relied on more by their coaches and are, therefore, more prone to overuse. I mean, it does make some sense in a weird sort of way. Personally, I think if there is an argument to be made for holding off on the curve, Boddy has the better arguments and they have nothing to do with injury rates or overuse.
The other logic problem with Andrews (and a LOT of other people) is the thinking behind increased injury rates. The problem is that it starts with a flawed premise. There may or may not be a recent increase in ucl injuries, but using the number of surgeries as the sole evidence behind the contention is simply ludicrous. Yes, there are more surgeries than in past years and they are being done on younger kids than ever before, but is this truly an indication that there are more injuries or just an indication that we resort to surgery more than in the past?
10-20 years ago, pitchers pitched through a ucl tear far longer than today before resorting to surgery. As to youth pitcher? How often would ANYONE even consider TJ surgery on a 13yo in 1995 even if they had torn the ucl? First, it's unlikely they ever would have even SEEN a surgeon. Most likely you would take your kid to his pediatrician, put some ice on it, pitched until the pain got too bad and eventually just stopped pitching. Bottom line is that we will never really know if injury rates have increased, especially among kids, because the data isn't available. I'm sure to an orthos surgeon it seems like injuries are on the rise because they have more patients and I think that's a good thing because now we pay attention to these injuries and don't just write kids off.
The only long term indicator we can look at is MLB DL lists. In fact, though, time on the disabled list for arm injuries, as measured in days, has steadily decreased for years. However, that may just be more proof that recovery time, due to increased use in surgery as an earlier treatment option, has compacted. We are still in an era where at the pro level we can try and blame injuries on too many pitches when they were younger. In ten years, though, if, despite all the pitch count rules and emphasis on recovery and decreasing throwing regiments, injury rates (or surgery rates since it will in the future be a better indicator of injury than today) increase or remain steady, we may have to readjust our thinking. Don't forget, there was a time not so long ago when the scientific opinion was pretty set that the curve itself was simply an optical illusion.
To me, it's just common sense. They do it in the pros on mature arms, so why wouldn't you do the same for youths. My sons youth PC would demand a shut down from pitching. College coaches set limits on pitches and innings thrown.
Go play another sport or work on academics.
Picked Off posted:To me, it's just common sense. They do it in the pros on mature arms, so why wouldn't you do the same for youths. My sons youth PC would demand a shut down from pitching. College coaches set limits on pitches and innings thrown.
Go play another sport or work on academics.
I don't think anyone disagrees with a shutdown on pitching. The question is all overhead throwing.
We are also learning more as the art of pitching enters a long overdue scientific age. Guys like KB are destroying a lot of age old concepts we all took as absolute truths. I think the impact of curve balls is one, but it won't shake long-held impressions for quite a while. I'll give you another one. Flat ground throwing vs. throwing from a mound. New research (mainly Driveline) is cutting through what we have long held as an absolute truth - that flat ground throwing isn't as stressful on the arm as throwing from a mound. It appears that just simply isn't true.
roothog66 posted:Picked Off posted:To me, it's just common sense. They do it in the pros on mature arms, so why wouldn't you do the same for youths. My sons youth PC would demand a shut down from pitching. College coaches set limits on pitches and innings thrown.
Go play another sport or work on academics.
I don't think anyone disagrees with a shutdown on pitching. The question is all overhead throwing.
Agree. The danger is continuous MAX EFFORT overhand throwing. How many catchers have TJ & these guys are throwing every pitch back to the pitcher 5X a week all season? The difference is in the MAX EFFORT. Refrain from max effort throwing in the offseason either off the mound or long toss but not necessary to shut down completely unless you fear mental fatigue or the player is youth level.
Plus, everyone is different & there is no universal answer to this question for all players. That is part of the difficulty.
Here's another example of why I take anything Andrews says with a grain of salt:
"Dr. Andrews actually said that kids throwing harder than 85 miles per hour in high school are going beyond the "developmental properties" of the human body at that age and that going over that is a major risk factor." How would he possibly come up with that number? The problem is that when someone when his credentials makes comments, it's hard to shift out what he's actually basing on scientific study and knowledge and what's simple speculation biased with a slant toward low-risk evaluation. Someone said it earlier, but throwing is bad on the arm, period. Andrews emphasis is on the risk side rather than the reward side and understandably so. His job isn't to build big league pitchers. His job is just to fix the damage, so he's naturally going to be on the low risk side of the equation.
Steve A. posted:roothog66 posted:Picked Off posted:To me, it's just common sense. They do it in the pros on mature arms, so why wouldn't you do the same for youths. My sons youth PC would demand a shut down from pitching. College coaches set limits on pitches and innings thrown.
Go play another sport or work on academics.
I don't think anyone disagrees with a shutdown on pitching. The question is all overhead throwing.
Agree. The danger is continuous MAX EFFORT overhand throwing. How many catchers have TJ & these guys are throwing every pitch back to the pitcher 5X a week all season? The difference is in the MAX EFFORT. Refrain from max effort throwing in the offseason either off the mound or long toss but not necessary to shut down completely unless you fear mental fatigue or the player is youth level.
Plus, everyone is different & there is no universal answer to this question for all players. That is part of the difficulty.
It's easy to overlook the genetic factor because it's so hard to quantify into something we can control. The simple fact is there are always going to be freaks like Nolan Ryan who could throw 150-200 pitches a game for years without damage and guys who, no matter how much you emphasize arm care and limits are just not going to be able to avoid injury.
As an experiment. How many on here over the age of, let's say 40, had an arm injury as a youth or high school pitcher? If so, did you ever visit a doctor about it? If so, what was the prescribed treatment? And, did anyone ever follow that up with a trip to a specialist?
No question. Mechanics, genetics, conditioning, volume of throwing. So many variables.
What is impossible to argue, however, is that throwing a baseball with max effort repeatedly, on a regular basis, is much more likely to result in arm injury than throwing a baseball with moderate effort repeatedly, on a regular basis. This is simply a fact.
So therefore, if you reduce the MAX EFFORT in the equation during the "offseason, or down time" this should logically = less chance of injury.
So, therefore, launching heavy objects at max effort into nets in the offseason DOES NOT = Less Injury. Launching heavy objects into nets into the offseason = more opportunity for injury. Max Effort being key in the above.
Kyle Boddy has an interesting take:
www.drivelinebaseball.com/2012...aining-is-the-devil/
"Here is how I approach training youth pitchers (13+ years old):
1. Very little – if any – pitching off a mound during the winter months. Completely avoiding pitching off a mound for 4+ months is strongly preferred.
2. Pitchers should be on a regimented and structured throwing program year-round, including winter training. Pitchers should prioritize deceleration training in the off-season.
3. If pitchers want to take time off from throwing, it should be for psychological reasons, not for any perceived physical benefit. Time off should not exceed four weeks.
4. The intelligent use of radar guns to track progress and to diagnose mechanical flaws with weighted baseballs is encouraged.* * * *
However, the idea that you will get better at throwing a baseball by not throwing a baseball is insane."
P.S. -- FWIW, my son is not on Kyle's program, but, man, his HS program is almost exactly like that -- 4 months off from pitching off a mound, but only 4-6 weeks off from throwing.
roothog66 posted:As an experiment. How many on here over the age of, let's say 40, had an arm injury as a youth or high school pitcher? If so, did you ever visit a doctor about it? If so, what was the prescribed treatment? And, did anyone ever follow that up with a trip to a specialist?
Played all through HS, arm always hurt (as a position player)... Never saw a Dr, it took a 25 year shutting down of the arm to get it fully rested. I finally developed the proper throwing motion after watching my boys instructors - never hurts, even after long toss or BP sessions. Gotta watch out for that word never...
roothog66 posted:Here's another example of why I take anything Andrews says with a grain of salt:
"Dr. Andrews actually said that kids throwing harder than 85 miles per hour in high school are going beyond the "developmental properties" of the human body at that age and that going over that is a major risk factor." How would he possibly come up with that number? The problem is that when someone when his credentials makes comments, it's hard to shift out what he's actually basing on scientific study and knowledge and what's simple speculation biased with a slant toward low-risk evaluation. Someone said it earlier, but throwing is bad on the arm, period. Andrews emphasis is on the risk side rather than the reward side and understandably so. His job isn't to build big league pitchers. His job is just to fix the damage, so he's naturally going to be on the low risk side of the equation.
I read his study. He came up with that number by testing stress on cadaver arms. Supposedly, a "normal" person can only handle the stress of pitching 85mph without it breaking, or being severely damaged.
The thing that always bugged me with that assertion though is that it is SOOO obvious that players who throw over that are genetically unique. They aren't the norm. We have said on here a thousand times that you can't train kids to throw as hard as they do today. All the training in the world won't work unless the genetics are there to back it up.
There is a LHP senior in my son's high school that wants to pitch at the next level SOOO bad. He does strength training, weekly pitching lessons, he's about 5'11 200#'s, he wants it so much, but he's only hitting around 75. It's obvious his genetics just aren't there.
More kids nationwide are throwing year round
Kids are throwing 90+ at younger & younger ages
We are seeing a huge increase in Tommy John surgeries for teenagers
It blows my mind that some people might think that taking 2-3 months off from throwing could be detrimental to arm health. Is that really the case? Or is the problem with taking 2-3 months from throwing that it can potentially slow down development?
Genetics is a huge factor in all athletic achievements, absolutely. However are we to believe that the current generation is genetically superior to every generation that came before them? More pitchers than ever are throwing 95+
I believe it is the training that is taking players who could throw 85-90 to 95+ ...
3and2Fastball posted:More kids nationwide are throwing year round
Kids are throwing 90+ at younger & younger ages
We are seeing a huge increase in Tommy John surgeries for teenagers
It blows my mind that some people might think that taking 2-3 months off from throwing could be detrimental to arm health. Is that really the case? Or is the problem with taking 2-3 months from throwing that it can potentially slow down development?
Here is the problem. These velocity camps & the increased training actually works to increase velocity. This is obvious. More high velocity throwers at all levels than ever before. There is such pressure & a chase now for velo that patience is set aside & youth injury has spiked tremendously.
Steve A. posted:No question. Mechanics, genetics, conditioning, volume of throwing. So many variables.
What is impossible to argue, however, is that throwing a baseball with max effort repeatedly, on a regular basis, is much more likely to result in arm injury than throwing a baseball with moderate effort repeatedly, on a regular basis. This is simply a fact.
So therefore, if you reduce the MAX EFFORT in the equation during the "offseason, or down time" this should logically = less chance of injury.
So, therefore, launching heavy objects at max effort into nets in the offseason DOES NOT = Less Injury. Launching heavy objects into nets into the offseason = more opportunity for injury. Max Effort being key in the above.
There is only so far you can go with "max effort". Trust me when I say my son's pitching "max effort" can't come close to what he does from his knees, into a net, with a weighted ball. And I say again, it's NOT a pitching motion where he can gather momentum, it's more like shot putting.
CaCO3Girl posted:Steve A. posted:No question. Mechanics, genetics, conditioning, volume of throwing. So many variables.
What is impossible to argue, however, is that throwing a baseball with max effort repeatedly, on a regular basis, is much more likely to result in arm injury than throwing a baseball with moderate effort repeatedly, on a regular basis. This is simply a fact.
So therefore, if you reduce the MAX EFFORT in the equation during the "offseason, or down time" this should logically = less chance of injury.
So, therefore, launching heavy objects at max effort into nets in the offseason DOES NOT = Less Injury. Launching heavy objects into nets into the offseason = more opportunity for injury. Max Effort being key in the above.
There is only so far you can go with "max effort". Trust me when I say my son's pitching "max effort" can't come close to what he does from his knees, into a net, with a weighted ball. And I say again, it's NOT a pitching motion where he can gather momentum, it's more like shot putting.
Totally get it. Sounds like it is a rational approach. I just have seen crazy winter programs in my area & I am sure it is not exclusive to where I am located.
I do not have it figured out by any stretch & that is why I am here. To gain insight into how others like yourself who are students of the process are approaching it & maybe we can help each other in our common goals to make our kids experience as positive as it can be.
Steve A. posted:3and2Fastball posted:More kids nationwide are throwing year round
Kids are throwing 90+ at younger & younger ages
We are seeing a huge increase in Tommy John surgeries for teenagers
It blows my mind that some people might think that taking 2-3 months off from throwing could be detrimental to arm health. Is that really the case? Or is the problem with taking 2-3 months from throwing that it can potentially slow down development?
Here is the problem. These velocity camps & the increased training actually works to increase velocity. This is obvious. More high velocity throwers at all levels than ever before. There is such pressure & a chase now for velo that patience is set aside & youth injury has spiked tremendously.
"Survival of the Fittest" is somewhat inevitable in all sports. But it appears that we as a Baseball Industry have taken that to a whole new level when it comes to arm health.
We need to understand, we come to this website as parents, but the Baseball Industry ultimately views our kids as commodities. "Oh, you got hurt? That's too bad. Well, go get surgery." Meanwhile there are dozens of others throwing just as hard ready to take your place.
In order to achieve anything in sports you have to push to a level very close to your genetic potential to reach your goals, and that increases the potential for injury, I get that.
I just don't see how taking 2-3 months off completely from throwing can be anything but good for your longterm health, and whatever limits that puts on how quickly you develop is very much negated by being healthier.
