Simeon Columbus Day Weekend Tournament - Washington Park

It was Young over Mather 5-0 today at Washington Park. Jack Cinoman was the winning pitcher; 4IP - 4 Hits, 5-K's, 1-BB. Pedro Rosa came in to close the door in the 5th inning.

John Schreiber was 2 for 2 at the plate (Single and Double). Dae Bowden with a RBI-Triple; Gabe Henriques RBI-Double and Nick Frahm with a RBI-Single.

The top eight teams are in a single game elimination playoff format tommorrow.

Schreiber and Henriques now play for Norwood. Schreiber has great power, I have seen him hit several home runs, and he doesn't look like he has filled out yet (read he'll only get better). Gabe is an excellent defensive player and a solid switch hitter who gets on base a lot. Neither are mentioned in current PBR but they should be IMO. At least as players to watch.

The Quarterfinals and Semifinals were held today at Washington Park and Young and Evanston emerge as the two teams which will advance to play for the tournament championship tomorrow night at Brooks at 6:30pm.

In the Quarterfinal Game it was Young winning 8-6 over Lakeview. Frank Gowder was the winning pitcher, going the distance and Jason Ormond came through with a 2 RBI-Triple and a RBI Single and later scored. The runs were very much needed as Lakeview did not go down easily and were threatening until the final out was made. Others in the hit column for this single elimination game were Dae Bowden who went 2 for 3 with 1-RBI Single and a Double, Steve Giononoi with a RBI-Double, Gowder with a RBI and a Single and Rosa with a RBI-Single. Jack Cinamon with a RBI and a Double and Gabe Henriques and Nathan Kamin with Singles.

In the Semifinal Game it was Young 6-3 over Lane Tech. Pedro Rosa was the winning pitcher. Nick Frahm pitched two innings for the Save. Einebohn Caberera-Loos went 2 for 3 with a Single and a RBI-Double. Gowder was 2 for 2 with two Singles and Cinoman had a RBI-Single. Also with Singles in the Semi Final game were Henriques, Giononoi and Ormond.

Evanston advanced with a win in the Quarterfinal game over Von Steuben and a win in the Semifinal game over Kenwood.

Last night at Brooks High School the Championship Game went from being a laugher and then turned into a baseball mess. It was Young winning decisively over Evanston. This game started off with another inexplicable "tournament quirk." Despite Young being the top seed in this CPS tournament, a flip determined home field advantage and Evanston won the coin toss. So the lower seed, which was Evanston and who Young had previously defeated, got the home field advantage!

It did not matter as Young was too much for Evanston to handle and at the top of the fourth inning it was 12-1 and at the end of four innings of play it was Young 17-3 over Evanston. Jason Ormond was the winning pitcher going 4 innings. A mercy rule win was clearly in sight. However, in the fifth inning Coach Cassidy substituted liberally to get other players into the game who had not played during the weekend. Subsequently, the lead quickly diminished and the quick "game over" after 5 innings went the full 7 innings. Eventually, it was Frank Gowder, one of Young's main throwers who stepped up and on to the pitching mound and got the job done.

Final score was Young 23-9 over Evanston. The noteable hit was Dae Bowden crushing a ball over the left field fence on a Grand Slam homerun in the 5th inning. Bowden connected earlier with a RBI-Single. Others in the hit parade were Einebohn Caberera-Loos with a Single and RBI-Double; Jack Cinamon with 2 Doubles; Ormond with a RBI-Single, RBI-Single and RBI-Double; and Pedro Rosa with 2-RBI Double and a RBI-Triple.

Young took home the tournament trophy for the second year in a row.

5 innings, one day rest, then 4 more innings in a rout? Seems a bit over board, ecspecially for fall baseball. But, at least it's another page in the scrapbook.

quote:

Originally posted by Baseball Spectator:
5 innings, one day rest, then 4 more innings in a rout? Seems a bit over board, ecspecially for fall baseball. But, at least it's another page in the scrapbook.

Agreed! Of course this game was never a game since it clear from the description of the level of talent and so it is possible he threw slowpitch style.

Another favorite thing of mine. Someone not familiar with the situation, kid, circumstances, etc telling somebody else how many pitches are good for the kid and what is too much. Pitch counts at the HS level are subjective to each kid and how they respond, to try to put a number on every kid and say what kid needs 3 days rest as opposed to another kid that needs 1 is wrong. Each kid is an individual and responds differently, I don't understand how people can't understand that. Whitney Young is a pretty good school with a good history, i don't think they are ever putting kids at risk by trying to win a fall game.

Nails I defer to you vast knowledge and superior experience. You appear to know more about everything than anyone else.

Now let's see. Take 40 throws in a typical bullpen. Take a typical 50 pitches regardless of innings or pitch selection. Not that I'm any expert but I'll defer to Doctors like Andrews (Andrew's charts/recomendations are all over the place.) who use this number as one measurement of what is safe for a young adult to throw and then factor in that 40+ 40 =80 and 50+50= 100 and that is 180 pitches in 3 days representing a conservative number. Now let's not forget all of the tosses in between pitches so I don't have any set number but you get the drift. Still, I defer to Nails who apparently has much more experience at coaching than I and certainly knows more than experts like Andrews.

You might also note that the brunt of my previous response was geared toward the condensending manner in which the opposing team was described. Of course we'll have to wait for the real story from the expert.

Jason threw 61 (9-18-15-11-8) pitches in 5 innings on Saturday afternoon in the first game versus Evanston who was the home team, so he pitched in the bottom of the 5th, to close it out. He then threw 68 (7-13-24-24) pitches in 4 innings on Tuesday night. Coach Cassidy pitched him appropriately.

These counts are only for the pitches that were thrown during the game. The only real issue was the length of time between innings as several pitching changes along with the game time for 17 runs to be scored had him sitting for an extended period of time.

Not appropriate.

For a 17 year old player, Dr. Andrews and Dr. Jobe along with the Institute on Sports Medicine suggest that after 40 pitches in competition, no player should pitch in competition unless they have 2 full days of rest. As the number of pitches increase, more rest is required. Of course neither myself nor Dr. Andrews have a clue.

Sunday, Monday and the entire day on Tuesday was spent in school. That makes three days, between two games that he did not pitch. The previous day before that he pitched was one inning and a third for the Norwood Blues, which was seven days prior to the Evanston game.

His arm has not been overused.

Table 4: Minimum Number of Pitches Thrown That Should Require Specified Rest
(Mean ± Standard Deviation)
Age 1 Day Rest2 Day Rest3 Day Rest4 Day Rest
8-10 21 ± 18 34 ± 16 43 ± 16 51 ± 19
11-12 27 ± 20 35 ± 20 55 ± 23 58 ± 18
13-14 30 ± 22 36 ± 21 56 ± 20 70 ± 20
15-16 25 ± 20 38 ± 23 62 ± 23 77 ± 20
17-18 27 ± 22 45 ± 25 62 ± 21 89 ± 22

Table 5: Age (in Years) Recommendation For Learning Various Pitches
(Mean ± Standard Deviation)
Pitch Age
Fastball 8 ± 2
Change-up 10 ± 3
Curveball 14 ± 2
Knuckle ball 15 ± 3
Slider 16 ± 2
Fork ball 16 ± 2
Screw ball 17 ± 2
This study was compiled on February 12, 1996 and was published by USA Baseball News in April of that year. The USA Baseball Medical & Safety Advisory Committee updated their position statement on youth baseball injuries in May of 2004. The results are at:
http://graphics.fansonly.com/photos/schools/usab/genrel...f/youth-injuries.pdf
Return to Main Articles
________________________________________
Dr. James Andrews is one of the world's foremost surgeons, internationally known and recognized for helping baseball pitchers recover from shoulder and elbow injuries. Many of today's top pitchers, including Kerry Wood and John Smoltz, have had "Tommy John surgery" performed by Andrews at the Alabama Sports Medicine and Orthopedic Center in Birmingham. Andrews founded the American Sports Medicine Institute and is a member of the USA Baseball Medical & Safety Advisory Committee that establishes guidelines for young pitchers.
Dr. Glenn Fleisig is the Smith and Nephew Chair of Research at the American Sports Medicine Institute, an organization dedicated to improving the understanding, prevention, and treatment of sports-related injuries through research and education. Dr. Fleisig has worked closely with players and coaches at all levels, from youth leagues to the big leagues.
________________________________________

http://baseballtips.com/pitchingreport.html#table3

quote:

Originally posted by Dolphin Mom:
Sunday, Monday and the entire day on Tuesday was spent in school. Three days between two games that he did not pitch.

Your son not mine. Justify it anyway you want. (Insert any number of sarcastic remarks about "MY BOY as you go through the stands!) I'm good to go and forget that I suggest any thing otherwise. I'm betting that after that game the other day, he sat and didn't play any more. Oh well. Nail's I defer. DM, I defer.

By the way you will find me sitting/standing alone and watching and not saying much of anything.

I just count the pitches and keep the scorebook.

quote:

Originally posted by Dolphin Mom:
Sunday, Monday and the entire day on Tuesday was spent in school. Three days between two games that he did not pitch.

Is that new math?...FYI, the day he pitches is not counted as a day of rest just because he pitches late in the day. He rested Sun/Mon and pitched on Tue, two days rest. You can make a semantical argument if you wish, but the reality is that no one, including Drs. Andrews or Fleisig count that as a day of rest. If you would like to contact Dr. Fleisig about it, please visit The ASMI (American Sports Medicine Institute) Forum where he answers questions regularly.

Baseball Spectator,
Thanks for the link to the chart, that is great.

and arranging the scrapbook no doubt.

I count 76 hours between Games I and II. Scrapbooks are too passe.

CPLZ, thanks for the Dr. Fleisig reference. My older stuff had Dr. Jobe's name attached.

Your kid, do what you want, but please don't try to justify it.

these charts are great sources of information and a good guide. But if you look at them they give you a plus or minus of 20. So it seems he's giving himself a lot of room for things, saying on 1 day rest you should throw anywhere between 27-49 pitches. The point being made is this is a guide, everyone is built differently. C.C Sabathia pitched often on 3-days rest and is not hurt by it and said his arm has felt fine. To paint everyone with a broad brush and think that someone 5'5 130 would have the same stamina and torgue on their arm as someone 6'3-210 is just wrong.

So while I agree it's a great guide to go by, everyone is different. This isn't little league where you blame the coach for why your kid got hurt, even though your kid probably had terrible mechanics. I seen on another thread they criticized the St. Louis Pirates for pitching a kid too much in the Kernals tournament, they are an outstanding organization don't you think they'd know their player better than you know him? Regardless of what arbitrary chart you come up with?

Why is a Dad/Mom keeping a scorebook in the stands at a high school game?

I trust the coaches to do what is best.

Keeping a scorebook at a high school game is the best way to stay awake! Some of those high mileage games can be long.

quote:

Originally posted by Dolphin Mom:
I count 76 hours between Games I and II.

Isn't rationalization wonderful! That way we never have to base our decisions in reality! A day can either be a day of rest, or a day of activity, it can't be both.

Lemme call Andrews and Fleisig and get their hat size, becuase maybe we can get dunce caps at a group rate...Coach, you in?

I think it's nice how some people can talk down to others and be condensending toward them because they have different views than that person. But if other people do it they get told about the rules of the message board.

Weird how that works. It also seems like you can rip on a parent, coach, publisher of a magazine and that's ok. But put a young adult's name on a post and state an opinion and that's wrong. Some of the people criticizing the things people say and how they say them should look in the mirror first before they judge.

Do you guys think the pro's go by Dr. Andrews pitch counter suggestion on that link? Do you know any colleges that go strictly by it and pertain it to every pitcher on their team, just curious?

quote:

Originally posted by Nails:
Do you guys think the pro's go by Dr. Andrews pitch counter suggestion on that link? Do you know any colleges that go strictly by it and pertain it to every pitcher on their team, just curious?

Ever hear of a guy by the name of Ron Gardenhire? He does. Very few arm injuries on the Minnesota staff and their pitchers are usually pretty fresh at the end of the season.

As to rest, nearly all college starters get a full week of rest between starts. There are some college coaches out there that pitch their guys into high pitch counts, but I don't see that many of them.

Nails you do the exact same thing you accuse others of. In fact you do it most of the time. You cannot let someone have an opinion without blasting them.

I bet no one uses the chart, the reason is everyone is different however, the Dr. probably has said this is a guideline based on his studies.

it definitely looks like a great guide to go by. Trying to figure out why knuckle balls should be taught later than a curveball. I thought a curveball was alot more wear on the arm than a knuckleball. But hey, as pointed out, i don't know much.

We had the unfortunate pleasure of getting to know Dr. Andrews very well. A wonderful man with great skill, honesty and humility. My son also was evaluated at ASMI 1 1/2 years after his TJ surgery, a facility second to none. If a player, parent or coach does not err on the side of caution, they're greatly increasing the risk of injury. Dr. Andrews might say something like; "what are theses games really worth?"

Anyone doubting the information that comes out of Birmingham is a fool.

I'd say the Brewers pretty much ignored that chart about 10 times in a row. Like I said, great guide. But think everyone is different, just like everyone has different opinions on what makes a solid baseball player and where they should be ranked.

rosy but what if they got a nice fall ball trophy?
cplz, I think your right about the twins, but they also have a guy named Liriano that I think had some arm trouble they brought him back and next thing you know he had tj surgery. I am not sure but it didn't seem like they treated him too well.

quote:

Originally posted by Nails:
I'd say the Brewers pretty much ignored that chart about 10 times in a row. Like I said, great guide. But think everyone is different, just like everyone has different opinions on what makes a solid baseball player and where they should be ranked.

Not to take the role of Captain Obvious - high school athletes - grown/physically mature MLB Player???

quote:

Originally posted by Nails:
I think it's nice how some people can talk down to others and be condensending toward them because they have different views than that person. But if other people do it they get told about the rules of the message board.

Weird how that works. It also seems like you can rip on a parent, coach, publisher of a magazine and that's ok. But put a young adult's name on a post and state an opinion and that's wrong. Some of the people criticizing the things people say and how they say them should look in the mirror first before they judge.

Weird? How, in your Narcissism?

where do I come across as what I say is gold? Plenty times I defer to other people and ask questions. I just think that because I disagree with some of the "old time" posters on here they take offense rather than have a discussion and then call me a Narcissist. I am willing to listen to all theories, and sides. Seems others are not.

I think the chart is great, I think if parents are going to start to question coach pitching a kid too much (HS coaches that as posted on another thread are very credible and deserving of their jobs) They should realize this isn't little league and you can't micro-manage junior's every move. You should trust the HS coach (who you all said were very qualified in what they do) and stay out of it and what moves they make.

Dolphin Mom takes a lot of grief, some of it perhaps deservedly so. I am not judging that. But just need to come to his/her defense here. He/she sits quietly at the games he/she attends. He/she keeps score regardless of who is pitching or whether his/her son is even in the game. He/she engages in the normal friendly banter with other parents watching, without judgment. It is a pleasure to have him/her keep score, so that the rest of us can know where we are in the game, who did what. It also gives us all a chance to opine whether certain plays are hits or errors, etc., which all of us enjoy doing So give Dolphin Mom a break, okay?

Not taking sides here but we have a pitching expert here in the Northeast by the name of Coach Bill Thurston at Amherst college

He professes that no two pitchers are identical and each is to be handled differently--some kids can't comb their hair the day following 30 pitches,others are good to go


What we do is trust our kids and their knowing their body--they let us know what they have in the tank even during the game they are pitching---we usually work on the conservative side--kid say he has two innings in the tank --we usually take him out after 1 more---we also do more streching before the game than most teams

Thge best answer to this question of innings and time before outings is to have more than enough arms than may be needed---in Jupiter for instance we will have 14 arms for the 4 pool games---sure the kids may not get a load of innings but at least they go home with an arm they can use and they all get seen

quote:

Originally posted by Nails:
I think the chart is great, I think if parents are going to start to question coach pitching a kid too much (HS coaches that as posted on another thread are very credible and deserving of their jobs) They should realize this isn't little league and you can't micro-manage junior's every move. You should trust the HS coach (who you all said were very qualified in what they do) and stay out of it and what moves they make.

That may be some of the worst advice ever posted.

The best thing parents can do with their pitching son, is become educated. Know what limits the experts say is safe. Know why those limits are in place and what is at stake by exceeding them. Any parent worth his/her salt should never let a coach knowingly place their sons health at risk.

That doesn't mean yelling it from the stands, but nonetheless, it does mean rigid enforcement. A win at any level is not worth my sons future.