Slider- good or bad?

I would wait until he is in college.

IMO HS players, who project as a college player, should focus on velocity, pitching effectively with a FB, a good CU and then a curve. (in that order)

Plenty of players have thrown sliders, but they can be problematic IMO. Many pitchers have trouble learning a slider and a curve at the same time and it becomes one pitch somewhere in between.

Throwing a slider also puts additional stress on the elbow that young arms don't need while they are developing.

BOF, good to hear about your opinion on the pitches. My son is now working on his 2nd pitch CU in the big field. He will be freshman next school year and I was thinking just FB and CU in his freshman year. Then pick up a 3rd pitch in Soph. Looks like CB is better than slider for a young arm. I would love to hear from others on their experiences with CB/sliders for a young arm who would want to continue on to college.

I agree with BOF 100%.

A 16 year old HS pitcher does not need two breaking pitches. Most pitchers throw one of the other and that can be determined later which would best suit him.

The focus of his development (in HS) should be as BOF suggests, FB, CU, CB.

I agree with the rest of the posters in general but there are times when a pitcher is better suited to throwing a slider than a curve. 16 is on the young side for a slider but not out of the question as long as it doesn't become the primary pitch.

The big factor is if he can throw it with good mechanics and without any joint pain- that goes for the fastball also. Fastballs are still(and always hve been end ever will continue to be) the most dangerous pitch on the arm.

Thanks this is all good input. My son and I talked about it this morning and he gave me a great run down of those slider-causing -joint-issue concerns. He is aware of that and explained the mechanics of how he throws his slider, so as not to hurt the elbow.

BOF, FYI he has had a great curve for at least two years now so no confusion on learning 2 at once, and yes he is 16 but physically fairly mature.

He's going to stay aware of this and talk with his pitching coach too. I am glad to have had some good input on this and will keep listening for more and sharing with him.

This is such a good web site!

My experiance with a slider is through teammates who threw it. They started learning it and it was okay but nothing special. After playing around, all of them found a way that put a lot better break on the ball but it put a lot of stress on their elbows. Two of them have tendonnitis in their elbow and one has ocassional pain in his elbow. I am not here to advocate throwing or not throwing, but make sureif he does, that he always throws it correctly or else he may end up doing more harm than good. I am a junior in high school and throw Fb, CU, cutter, and know how to throw a curve but usually don't. I didn't learn my curve until this year.

On an additional note, most of the guys who i have faced who were most dominant only worked with fastball and changeup. Hope this helps

quote:

Originally posted by Skylark:
Fastballs are still(and always hve been end ever will continue to be) the most dangerous pitch on the arm.

If this is true, why is it the first pitch taught to a pitcher?
Could you provide valid information to support this claim?

http://www.checkswing.com/grou...e-slider-is-the-most

ASMI have done studies showing that the fastball puts the most stress on the arm. Go argue with them TPM.

quote:

Originally posted by Skylark:
ASMI have done studies showing that the fastball puts the most stress on the arm. Go argue with them TPM.

I am not arguing, I only asked if you could supply any information for us to see what you stated above that the FB was the most dangerous pitch.

Throwing a baseball puts lots of stress on any arm but is the FB pitch the most dangerous?

I would throw whatever gets people out, and keeps his pitch count down.

But, I wouldn't throw more than 25% or so of supinated pitches.

Caution for most... sliders tend to 'hang' more than others.

Here is the research Skylark is referring to:

Am J Sports Med. 2008 Apr;36(4):686-92. Epub 2007 Nov 30.
A biomechanical comparison of youth baseball pitches: is the curveball potentially harmful?
Dun S, Loftice J, Fleisig GS, Kingsley D, Andrews JR.
Source
American Sports Medicine Institute, 833 St Vincent's Drive, Birmingham, AL 35205, USA.
Abstract
BACKGROUND:
The curveball has been anecdotally considered as a dangerous pitch among youth pitchers, especially for their ulnar collateral ligaments. No biomechanical studies have been conducted among youth pitchers comparing different types of pitches.
HYPOTHESIS:
The kinetics of the baseball throw varies significantly between the fastball, curveball, and change-up for youth pitchers. Kinematic and temporal differences are also expected.
STUDY DESIGN:
Controlled laboratory study.
METHODS:
Twenty-nine youth baseball pitchers (age, 12.5 +/- 1.7 years) pitched 5 fastballs, 5 curveballs, and 5 change-ups with maximum effort in an indoor laboratory setting. Data were collected with a 3-dimensional motion analysis system. Kinetic, kinematic, and temporal parameters were compared among the 3 pitches.
RESULTS:
For elbow varus torque, shoulder internal rotation torque, elbow proximal force, and shoulder proximal force, the fastball produced the greatest values, followed by the curveball and then the change-up. The fastball also produced the greatest elbow flexion torque. Shoulder horizontal adduction torque and shoulder adduction torque were the least for the change-up. Several differences in body segment position, velocity, and timing were also found.
CONCLUSIONS:
In general, elbow and shoulder loads were the greatest in the fastball and least in the change-up. Kinematic and temporal differences were also found among the 3 pitch types.
CLINICAL RELEVANCE:
The curveball may not be more potentially harmful than the fastball for youth pitchers. This finding is consistent with recent epidemiologic research indicating that amount of pitching is a stronger risk factor than type of pitches thrown.

PMID: 18055920

So bottom line seems to be, keep mechanics sound on whatever you throw, and use what gets 'em out to keep pitch counts low.

When my son was 12 he began throwing the breaking ball in games. It thus led to lower pitch counts and thus- less fatigue which positively has been shown to be the greatest factor in throwing injuries. He began throwing the slider when he was 14. He is now 16 and still throws the slider. Never at anytime have I felt that it was harmful to his arm. Long outings and the frequency of starts on the bump still scare the heck out of me. Get a good camera and watch how your kid throws both the fastball and breaking ball in slow motion. You may be surprised that in actuality, it is the fastball that looks more stressful. Everyone talks of pronation and supination and in reality, they do not have much, if any, effect on the arm switching from fastball to breaking ball. Unless you just have plain horrible mechanics, pretty much every pitcher pronates their forearm into release. The point at which the elbow is at its greatest stress is when it gets cocked back and begins to accelerate into release. At that point, it doesnt matter how one is gripping the ball. The fastball is generally thrown the most with max effort unlike the breaking ball. Thus why the studies show the fastball to be the greatest as far as stress on the arm.

These studies are kind of D’Oh IMO. Of course the FB is puts the most stress on the arm. Throwing harder does the same thing. So do we teach our kids to NOT throw hard? We should if we want to protect their arms, should we not? If all we are trying to do is to prevent injuries than the only pitch that they should throw is a CU.

The fact is that if you want to play at the next level up you have to throw hard. Throwing hard stresses the arm, so if you want to play in college and beyond you have to throw hard.

The biggest issue in youth ball is overuse, and improper mechanics, including throwing breaking pitches improperly

quote:

Originally posted by Skylark:

When my son was 12 he began throwing the breaking ball in games. It thus led to lower pitch counts and thus- less fatigue which positively has been shown to be the greatest factor in throwing injuries. He began throwing the slider when he was 14. He is now 16 and still throws the slider. Never at anytime have I felt that it was harmful to his arm. Long outings and the frequency of starts on the bump still scare the heck out of me. Get a good camera and watch how your kid throws both the fastball and breaking ball in slow motion. You may be surprised that in actuality, it is the fastball that looks more stressful. Everyone talks of pronation and supination and in reality, they do not have much, if any, effect on the arm switching from fastball to breaking ball. Unless you just have plain horrible mechanics, pretty much every pitcher pronates their forearm into release. The point at which the elbow is at its greatest stress is when it gets cocked back and begins to accelerate into release. At that point, it doesnt matter how one is gripping the ball. The fastball is generally thrown the most with max effort unlike the breaking ball. Thus why the studies show the fastball to be the greatest as far as stress on the arm.

Skylark- I agree with everything you said except one thing. The elbow is at its greatest stress when the arm is at the point of release, not when the arm is at its maximal degree of external rotation. However, the reason the fastball is most stressful at this point in the mechanics is because the fastball is the pitch that allows for the highest degree of external rotation, and thus the valgus forces used to accelerate the arm forward are the greatest in this case. So you were pretty much spot on nonetheless.

Any pitch that is thrown with altered mechanics will hurt a pitcher's arm. I still err on the side of caution when teaching breaking pitches to young pitchers. The tendency to overcompensate due to fatigue and lack of bodily control would result in excess stress placed on the shoulder and elbow, and these are most likely to occur when throwing a pitch that the young pitcher is not as comfortable throwing.

The muscles surrounding the areas in question can be trained and strengthened over time in order to withstand such torque and force and allow the arm to release the ball faster. But in the end, as noted by Skylark and many others, mechanics and proper usage are BY FAR the number one most important factors in keeping a pitcher healthy, regardless of his repertoire.

Why should the only pitch thrown be a CU? If thrown properly, the arm speed is the same or close to a FB, so how is it any less stress?

There’s nothing that says a pitcher has to throw hard in order to play at the next level. Assuming you’re talking about HS, your implication is that every pitcher in college can throw a strawberry through the side of a battleship. Now I’m sure every college and above coach wants all of his pitchers to throw mid to high 90’s, but we all know the reality is, mid-80’s is good, high 80’s is really good, low 90’s is great, and anything about that is a miracle to savor.

However, I do agree that: “The biggest issue in youth ball is overuse, and improper mechanics, including throwing breaking pitches improperly.”

quote:

Originally posted by Stats4Gnats:

Why should the only pitch thrown be a CU? If thrown properly, the arm speed is the same or close to a FB, so how is it any less stress?

Any pronation or supination of the wrist will limit the body's ability to maximize the external rotation of the arm. The external rotation of the arm is the basis for the force that the shoulder/elbow take when throwing the ball. Since the fastball allows for the most external rotation, all else equal, the fastball is the most stressful pitch on the arm.

Laflippin,
Thanks. Have seen that study. Published in 2007, each pitcher throwing 5 pitches of each.

The last line is interesting, it states "the curveball MAY NOT be more potentially harmful than the fastball for youth pitchers".

No one ever suggested that the fastball DID NOT place stress on the arm, did they?

It does not say that the fastball is the most dangerous pitch in baseball, what was stated by skylark.

As we all know that ANYTHING that is done to an extreme can cause harm. No doubt overuse is the biggest culprit.

Absolutely anyone can get a college scholarship not hitting 90 or above.

Just one word of advice, if one wants to play at the highest level, they MUST develop their fastball, everything else is considered secondary.

I believe to be good in HS, you must have command of 2 pitches. I have never been to any HS game where there were any pitchers who were successful just throwing a fastball. Yes, the FB is most important. But without a second pitch, that fastball is nothing. I see a lot of hard throwing hs pitchers who do not succeed because they lack the ability to command a second pitch. The most successful pitchers at an y level are those who command at least 2 pitches. I fully agree that the fastball is the primary tool of a pitchers arsenal and that a pitcher should work hard to do what is required to make that pitch as effective as possible. In reality, offspeed pitches thrown with command make a pitchers fastball even more effective, perhaps even devastatingly effective!

quote:

Originally posted by Stats4Gnats:
Why should the only pitch thrown be a CU? If thrown properly, the arm speed is the same or close to a FB, so how is it any less stress?

There’s nothing that says a pitcher has to throw hard in order to play at the next level. Assuming you’re talking about HS, your implication is that every pitcher in college can throw a strawberry through the side of a battleship. Now I’m sure every college and above coach wants all of his pitchers to throw mid to high 90’s, but we all know the reality is, mid-80’s is good, high 80’s is really good, low 90’s is great, and anything about that is a miracle to savor.

However, I do agree that: “The biggest issue in youth ball is overuse, and improper mechanics, including throwing breaking pitches improperly.”

Stats.

Josh answered in ways I don't understand. A simple way to understand it is F=MA. This is a simplistic way of saying that the forces on the arm are the effect of accelerating a baseball mass at high velocity. A change up may have the arm speed but the loads are caused by the velocity of the ball.

If you are a RHP and want to play at the highest college levels you better be at 90 or above if you want any serious offers. You can do it less than this, but not much.

I could teach a kid to be a very good pitcher in HS throwing a CU and some sort of breaking pitch. He would get no interest from college coaches, but he could be a very effective HS pitcher.

BOF- Sorry the inner nerd came out in me
I've had a lot of time to study up on this stuff over the past year.

What you said is exactly what I said, just differently. Basically the external rotation, or how far you can bend your arm back, is greatest with a fastball. So that means you can throw the ball harder because there's a greater acceleration of the arm.

M= Baseball
A= Arm load/torque (created by external rotation)
F= Stress on arm

So there ya go!

quote:

Originally posted by J H:
Basically the external rotation, or how far you can bend your arm back, is greatest with a fastball.

OK, I'm confused. The difference in a pitch is the grip (or pronate/supinate, which happens after ER). I'm unclear how the grip changes your ER.

quote:

Originally posted by TPM:
Laflippin,
Thanks. Have seen that study. Published in 2007, each pitcher throwing 5 pitches of each.

The last line is interesting, it states "the curveball MAY NOT be more potentially harmful than the fastball for youth pitchers".

No one ever suggested that the fastball DID NOT place stress on the arm, did they?

It does not say that the fastball is the most dangerous pitch in baseball, what was stated by skylark.

As we all know that ANYTHING that is done to an extreme can cause harm. No doubt overuse is the biggest culprit.

Absolutely anyone can get a college scholarship not hitting 90 or above.

Just one word of advice, if one wants to play at the highest level, they MUST develop their fastball, everything else is considered secondary.

Actually it does say the fastball puts the most stress (dangerous=minced words) on the shoulder and the elbow.

Poor mechanics and overuse are the biggest guilty culprit.

Sultan- Pronation/supination is most certainly acted out by time the arm is entering full maximum range of ER. Pronating/supinating after getting into ER would result in extremely high forces on the elbow due to the drastic increase in tension amongst the forearm flexor muscles.

As for a study with some interesting figures on the topic, here you go...be sure to note the differences between the demographics (college pitcher vs. youth pitcher), and the results:

http://www.asmi.org/asmiweb/re...es/various_types.htm

Seems like the study pretty much states the fastball creates the most stress.

quote:

Originally posted by AGDAD19:

quote:

Originally posted by TPM:
Laflippin,
Thanks. Have seen that study. Published in 2007, each pitcher throwing 5 pitches of each.

The last line is interesting, it states "the curveball MAY NOT be more potentially harmful than the fastball for youth pitchers".

No one ever suggested that the fastball DID NOT place stress on the arm, did they?

It does not say that the fastball is the most dangerous pitch in baseball, what was stated by skylark.

As we all know that ANYTHING that is done to an extreme can cause harm. No doubt overuse is the biggest culprit.

Absolutely anyone can get a college scholarship not hitting 90 or above.

Just one word of advice, if one wants to play at the highest level, they MUST develop their fastball, everything else is considered secondary.

Actually it does say the fastball puts the most stress (dangerous=minced words) on the shoulder and the elbow.

Poor mechanics and overuse are the biggest guilty culprit.

The language first used by skylark was that it was the most dangerous, I must have missed where it says that in the study.

Or was it just the usual flair for the dramatic?

BTW, the original topic was about the use of the slider, the study did not incorporate that pitch.

The study didnt differentiate between a slow loopy curve and a hard power curve. One could strongly argue that there really isnt much difference between a power curve and a slider

BaseballmomCEP,
My belief is more information is better, especially as information on the question you posed continues to develop and evolve.
Here is a link to a recent survey/study done through some University of North Carolina folks/researchers, on the issue:

http://college.unc.edu/2011/10...ith-your-arm-intact/

Through the surveys and responses, the one pitch reported to show an elevated risk of injury was/is: the slider.

"“Kids who threw the slider were at three times the risk of getting injured,” Register-Mihalik says. They reported more pain more often than other pitchers. One reason could be the mechanics necessary to throw a good slider. It requires a more violent arm motion; it’s like a combination of a curve and a fastball. “And that means it’s a more risky pitch than a curveball, especially for kids at a young age when their muscles and bones are not fully developed,” Register-Mihalik says. Yet her surveys revealed that not many Little Leaguers throw sliders. And kids who don’t throw curveballs or sliders still get hurt. Some even develop tendinitis."

In addition to the slider, the other two major risk factors for injury were identified:
"high pitch counts and pitching too often."

Since the study is based on surveys, it might create more questions and also be subject to criticism by the "nay-sayers."
Since it does address quite specifically the question you asked, I thought it might be helpful for you.

In a manner of speaking the fastball is the most dangerous pitch because it is thrown more often and harder than any other pitch.

JMO, but the slider would be harder on the arm than the fastball if one were to throw mostly sliders rather than mostly fastballs.

JMO, but I believe curves can contribute to arm problems even though the stresses are less than the stresses seen when throwing a fastball simply because the stresses are applied differently than the stresses of the fastball.

JMO, but despite what one group would tell you I believe that the hardest pitch on the arm is still the screwball even if it isn't the hardest pitch on the UCL.

BaseballmomCEP,
My belief is more information is better, especially as information on the question you posed continues to develop and evolve.
Here is a link to a recent survey/study done through some University of North Carolina folks/researchers, on the issue:

http://college.unc.edu/2011/10...ith-your-arm-intact/


Thanks infieldad, that was an interesting article I will share with my son.

All the comments on this thread have been very helpful!

quote:

On an additional note, most of the guys who i have faced who were most dominant only worked with fastball and changeup. Hope this helps

Thanks. This is a very good reference point for my son who will be a freshman HS in the up coming year. He now has a good command of FB in the big field, he needed a 2nd pitch to make his FB looks good. When he was 11, he had a combination of FB, CB and slider. That took a toll on his elbow and I had to shut him down. At 12, we decided to go only with FB (in the small field) and he could get away with it by blowing pass the batters or by ball placements. Now in the big field, he needed the 2nd pitch to be successful; he could blow pass half of the batters, but the other half keep fouling it to the right field. I was thinking he might need a 3rd pitch as well but it seems not necessary.

I have another question: which one is less stressful: circle CU or split-finger CU ? My gut feeling is split-finger CU is more stressful because of tight grip. Any comments?

You've received great insight in from many experienced folks who have even referenced materials well.

However, I'm not an expert but certainly I'm opinionated. So with that warning, give my input the relative weight you feel it deserves.

I disagree with the FB being the most damaging pitch. I'd say thrown properly, with a properly prepared arm, it's the least damaging to a natural throwing motion if pronated upon release as they normally are.

Sliders, thrown with with the palm "knife hand blade" facing the catcher and thumb up (supinated) is an injury waiting to happen especially, if upon the arm back swing, the arm travels more towards first base, than second base, for a right handed pitcher (too much torque on the elbow has the arm must circle/arc around to gain momentum to the plate.

I didn't pitch in the big leagues, nor have I Coached high level pitchers. JMO based on physics of the human body AND having thrown an estimated 50,000 rear and front hand punches at maximum force. If I do that fist and thumb up vertical I will wince with pain on just about every one of them and will soon be injured. So would anyone else be injured as well. Thrown with a twisting motion ending thumb down (pronate), no pain, lots of gain! I don't see much or feel much difference when I apply those force application principles while throwing a baseball.

A young pitcher, just moving up to the big field, for me a second recommended pitch would the circle change! I'd hold him off of sliders, and breaking balls, in very large doses, until the elbow growth plate has closed!

Best of Luck.

Watch a pitcher throw a slider in super slow motion and you will notice that even when they throw and release the ball it is almost identical to the fastball with their arm pronating at release.

quote:

Originally posted by Skylark:
Watch a pitcher throw a slider in super slow motion and you will notice that even when they throw and release the ball it is almost identical to the fastball with their arm pronating at release.

Obviously, I haven't seen that in "slomo." If that's the case, then the only difference between it and a two-seamer is the off-center grip. The loss of velocity (from FB) of slider would seem to be because you don't stay on top of it thru release but come around it to get glove side movement. Or, is that achieved from middle finger pressure?

quote:

Originally posted by Skylark:
Watch a pitcher throw a slider in super slow motion and you will notice that even when they throw and release the ball it is almost identical to the fastball with their arm pronating at release.

*,**

*If thrown properly.

** Most players do not have the ability to throw them properly until they are physically mature.

quote:

A young pitcher, just moving up to the big field, for me a second recommended pitch would the circle change! I'd hold him off of sliders, and breaking balls, in very large doses, until the elbow growth plate has closed!

My gut feeling is to go with circle CU as well. How about split finger CU ?

Son suggested split finger CU as it is more a natural grip closest to the FB grip. For circle CU, he needs to palm it. His coach brought up split finger CU when I mentioned change up.

Yesterday, he pitched well with just FB and circle CU, going 11 innings with 50+ pitches, striking out some strong high school JV players and forcing pop-up and ground out as well. He was still not comfortable with circle CU, so he dialed down his FB from 70+ to 60+ to induce the lead-off hitter to swing and get struck out. Not optimum way to go, just trickery. But anyway, it seems like he is ready to be a freshman in August.

quote:

Originally posted by BOF:

quote:

Originally posted by Skylark:
Watch a pitcher throw a slider in super slow motion and you will notice that even when they throw and release the ball it is almost identical to the fastball with their arm pronating at release.

*,**

*If thrown properly.

** Most players do not have the ability to throw them properly until they are physically mature.

Exactly!

quote:

Originally posted by BOF:

quote:

Originally posted by Skylark:
Watch a pitcher throw a slider in super slow motion and you will notice that even when they throw and release the ball it is almost identical to the fastball with their arm pronating at release.

*,**

*If thrown properly.

** Most players do not have the ability to throw them properly until they are physically mature.

Varsity HS pitchers are physically mature to throw them.