Slider- good or bad?

quote:

Originally posted by Skylark:

Varsity HS pitchers are physically mature to throw them.

So what you are saying is that a freshman or a sophmore player on varsity is physically mature?

Or properly conditioned?

All players mature differently.

I thought son was physically mature in HS, he went off to college and he looked like a pee wee compared to the upper classman, he was not as yet physically mature.

quote:

Varsity HS pitchers are physically mature to throw them.

Wouldn't agree with that at all.

Varsity pitchers at the hs level are physically mature enough to throw hard breaking balls.

quote:

Originally posted by TPM:

quote:

Originally posted by Skylark:

Varsity HS pitchers are physically mature to throw them.

So what you are saying is that a freshman or a sophmore player on varsity is physically mature?

Or properly conditioned?

All players mature differently.

I thought son was physically mature in HS, he went off to college and he looked like a pee wee compared to the upper classman, he was not as yet physically mature.

Apples and oranges there. We are not comparing physicallity between college baseball players and hs varsity kids. All i am saying is that a hs varsity pitcher is physically mature enough to throw hard breaking balls.

^LOL. Here we go again.

Skylark- It is literally impossible to make a generalization such as the one you just made. One cannot say that every high school varsity pitcher is physically mature enough to do anything. Every human being matures at different rates.

quote:

Originally posted by J H:
^LOL. Here we go again.

Skylark- It is literally impossible to make a generalization such as the one you just made. One cannot say that every high school varsity pitcher is physically mature enough to do anything. Every human being matures at different rates.

I am not making any generalization. Your basic varsity pitcher is usually between 16-18 years of age, shaves at least once a week if not more, throws around or above 80 mph, etc etc. At this age they are more than capable of properly learning and throwing hard breaking balls. Go do yourself a favor and look at all the profiles on any baseball showcase like "Perfectgame" and you will note that a majority of pitchers throw hard breaking balls.

quote:

am not making any generalization. Your basic varsity pitcher is usually between 16-18 years of age, shaves at least once a week if not more, throws around or above 80 mph, etc etc. At this age they are more than ca

Yes you are and you have no knowledge about the genetic age of HS players. Do your homework.

Look, I am not going to d defend reality. Go to any hs in America and pretty much every varsity pitcher throws a breaking ball. Thats reality! How hard they throw it varries from pitcher to pitcher but one cannot deny the reality that hard breaking balls are being thrown in hs. One also cannot deny that high pitch counts are common in hs from time to time. Are hs pitchers physically mature to throw 100 pitches in games every 5 days? I will say this much- a hs varsity pitcher who throws 100 pitches in a game is more than capable and mature enough skeletally speaking, to be taught to throw hard breaking balls. Perhaps y'all should start a petition to disallow hard breaking balls in hs.

Skylark- You were banned from this website once already. I'd politely suggest you tone it down here trying to defend yourself once again so that you don't get Napoleonic on us and have it happen again. Because what you're saying is not a reality and it does need a lot of defending due to it's blatant incorrectness.

quote:

Originally posted by J H:
Skylark- You were banned from this website once already. I'd politely suggest you tone it down here trying to defend yourself once again so that you don't get Napoleonic on us and have it happen again. Because what you're saying is not a reality and it does need a lot of defending due to it's blatant incorrectness.

Blatant incorrectness? Whatever.

quote:

Originally posted by Skylark:

quote:

Originally posted by J H:
^LOL. Here we go again.

Skylark- It is literally impossible to make a generalization such as the one you just made. One cannot say that every high school varsity pitcher is physically mature enough to do anything. Every human being matures at different rates.

I am not making any generalization. Your basic varsity pitcher is usually between 16-18 years of age, shaves at least once a week if not more, throws around or above 80 mph, etc etc. At this age they are more than capable of properly learning and throwing hard breaking balls. Go do yourself a favor and look at all the profiles on any baseball showcase like "Perfectgame" and you will note that a majority of pitchers throw hard breaking balls.

Not true. My son was a 15 yr. old freshman pitching varsity. Was 5'8" and weighed 145 or so. Threw over 80, but never shaved and was not physically mature.

Had another kid this year, who although he was a junior was only 5'10", 150lbs. I don't think he shaved and would not consider him a physically mature player.

There is such a variety of players out there in all classifications of HSs, you just can't make the generalization that ALL varsity pitchers are physically mature. In some cases, you may have 8th graders pitching varsity for some of the small private schools.

I will agree that the majority of HS varsity pitchers throw a breaking ball of some sort. Some hard, some not. I also don't think looking at PG as a source for this information is not very accurate. Mostly the best go to PG showcases and tournaments. There are probably thousands of varsity pitchers out there who have never been to a PG showcase. These are probably the guys who are not capable of throwing a "hard" breaking ball yet.

quote:

Originally posted by bballman:

quote:

Originally posted by Skylark:

quote:

Originally posted by J H:
^LOL. Here we go again.

Skylark- It is literally impossible to make a generalization such as the one you just made. One cannot say that every high school varsity pitcher is physically mature enough to do anything. Every human being matures at different rates.

I am not making any generalization. Your basic varsity pitcher is usually between 16-18 years of age, shaves at least once a week if not more, throws around or above 80 mph, etc etc. At this age they are more than capable of properly learning and throwing hard breaking balls. Go do yourself a favor and look at all the profiles on any baseball showcase like "Perfectgame" and you will note that a majority of pitchers throw hard breaking balls.

Not true. My son was a 15 yr. old freshman pitching varsity. Was 5'8" and weighed 145 or so. Threw over 80, but never shaved and was not physically mature.

Had another kid this year, who although he was a junior was only 5'10", 150lbs. I don't think he shaved and would not consider him a physically mature player.

There is such a variety of players out there in all classifications of HSs, you just can't make the generalization that ALL varsity pitchers are physically mature. In some cases, you may have 8th graders pitching varsity for some of the small private schools.

I will agree that the majority of HS varsity pitchers throw a breaking ball of some sort. Some hard, some not. I also don't think looking at PG as a source for this information is not very accurate. Mostly the best go to PG showcases and tournaments. There are probably thousands of varsity pitchers out there who have never been to a PG showcase. These are probably the guys who are not capable of throwing a "hard" breaking ball yet.

I said "your basic varsity pitcher". I was going for the "average". My son was a varsity pitcher last year as a freshman. He didn't shave then and he also threw over 80 mph. He was throwing hard breaking balls last year. I am speaking with some experience first hand that if taught correctly, your typical varsity pitcher is more than capable and mature enough to throw hard breaking balls.

Is Junior High in session today? "Is not" "Is too"

My son has been pitching since the 3rd grade and just finished a rather successful high school career in a competitive conference. He has always been a big kid who could throw the ball hard, although he just started shaving this year. We have been parents who read the research and tried to do what was best for him. Knock wood, his arm has remained healthy.

He developed a change-up in the 6th grade and a slider in the 8th grade, although was able to mostly rely on his fastball. In the 9th grade, (JV) he threw mostly fastballs with the occasional slider. Then we heard the slider could be dangerous so that summer he dropped it and started working on a curve ball. He moved to varsity in 10th grade.

IMHO, the curve ball seems to be the hardest pitch for a varsity hitter, and the most successful pitchers in our league are the ones who throw the most curve balls for strikes. The change-up is sometimes a gift for the hitter who couldn't catch up to the fast ball. Again, my HO, but I think a kid with a decent FB and a great curve can be very successful in high school varsity baseball.

He is planning to try to bring back the slider this summer.

I don't think that anyone is arguing that a pitcher should not be throwing a breaking pitch in HS. I just don't know why one would need 2, unless his FB is not impressive. The real argument for me is those younger than HS throwing more pitches than they have to in number or in type.

But I do have to say that I have never heard of anyone teaching a young pitcher to throw breaking balls over FB so he can get more out and spend less time on the mound. And I still argue the FB being that most "dangerous" pitch even with the small study provided.


Below is a pic and a report on son his junior year in HS. I don't remember the slider (more like slurve) but that most likely was his show pitch (as mentioned) for showcases and when scouts and coaches were watching This to me seems like a very good time to use that when someone is watching.

We are getting away from the OP's question as to her son's circumstances. Note that the player is 16, uses a FB, CU and CB not sure why he would need 2 breaking pitches. Most pro pitchers do not even use that many.

BTW, the junior in HS (see below) looks like a baby and was not shaving until he went to college (or at least he did to be cool).

See 2003 national showcase remarks. BTW, all of those different slots are now one!

http://www.perfectgame.org/Pla...profile.aspx?ID=9795

Indeed there are a lot of factors and grey area in pitching. The command and control of a pitch could also determine how successful a pitcher will be. The type of pitches, speed, pitch counts, frequency, mechanics, maturity are major factors for a young arm. Hope all our kids keep healthy arms doing what they like to do the best.

quote:

Originally posted by TPM:
I don't think that anyone is arguing that a pitcher should not be throwing a breaking pitch in HS. I just don't know why one would need 2, unless his FB is not impressive. The real argument for me is those younger than HS throwing more pitches than they have to in number or in type.

But I do have to say that I have never heard of anyone teaching a young pitcher to throw breaking balls over FB so he can get more out and spend less time on the mound. And I still argue the FB being that most "dangerous" pitch even with the small study provided.


Below is a pic and a report on son his junior year in HS. I don't remember the slider (more like slurve) but that most likely was his show pitch (as mentioned) for showcases and when scouts and coaches were watching This to me seems like a very good time to use that when someone is watching.

We are getting away from the OP's question as to her son's circumstances. Note that the player is 16, uses a FB, CU and CB not sure why he would need 2 breaking pitches. Most pro pitchers do not even use that many.

BTW, the junior in HS (see below) looks like a baby and was not shaving until he went to college (or at least he did to be cool).

See 2003 national showcase remarks. BTW, all of those different slots are now one!

http://www.perfectgame.org/Pla...profile.aspx?ID=9795

So...your own son was throwing hard breaking balls in HS. Thats exactly my point. I rest my case. BTW, the number one prospect from the northwest last year threw 4 pitches as well- a FB, CU, CB and "slider".

Where did I ever say he never threw a breaking ball in HS?
Can you show me that?

That was the summer before son's 18th birthday. I would HOPE by that time a pitcher is using a bb, agreed?

The OP's son is 16.

And FWIW he wasn't shaving, maybe if, once a week. All players mature physically at different times.

I rest my case.

Was the number one prospect a freshman or a senior? How many were plus pitches or what was their grade on a ML scale? He could hav eben teh number one prospect because he threw the heat, not for 4 pitches. You made a statement but gave no reasons as to why.

A HS pitcher only needs 2 great pitches to be successful. Most professional pitchers cannot throw more than one off speed well.

So give us reasons why would a HS pitcher need 2?

quote:

Originally posted by TPM:
Where did I ever say he never threw a breaking ball in HS?
Can you show me that?

That was the summer before son's 18th birthday. I would HOPE by that time a pitcher is using a bb, agreed?

The OP's son is 16.

And FWIW he wasn't shaving, maybe if, once a week. All players mature physically at different times.

I rest my case.

Was the number one prospect a freshman or a senior? How many were plus pitches or what was their grade on a ML scale? He could hav eben teh number one prospect because he threw the heat, not for 4 pitches. You made a statement but gave no reasons as to why.

A HS pitcher only needs 2 great pitches to be successful. Most professional pitchers cannot throw more than one off speed well.

So give us reasons why would a HS pitcher need 2?

So,to quote from yoursons hs profile at the PG showcase-

" . Kopp stays with the higher slots for his 73 mph curveball and will often get a hard, sharp bite to this pitch. His 78 slider comes from the lowest slot and is more of just ashow pitch at this point. With the different arm angles and the variety of movement that Kopp can get, it’s"

So, maybe you should ask your own self why he needed 2 breaking balls in hs. You keep asking me all this stuff. Ask your own son. He was throwing a hard breaking ball. Not saying your a hypocrit but....

Skylark- I threw FB/CU/CH/Splitter in high school. Does it make me a hypocrite if I say I don't like teaching the splitter, and I don't think its a necessary pitch to add to an arsenal if there are already quality pitches in place?

You get questioned every once in a while here because something you said may have not made sense. That's OK...people don't always understand or agree with everything I say either. You don't need to get defensive and attack others every time something like this happens. That's what got you banned from this website when you were posting as Gingerbread Man. Contributing to a discussion is great, being confrontational about everything is not.

Good points JH.
There are lots of things son did as a pitcher I did not agree with. I still don't on some things, the difference is that the decision's he makes as a professional are much different than decisions made for yuong players whose bodies have not fully matured.

I wish that I had known much more than I do now. Like so many of those that are way passed HS and college.

We tried to do whatever we felt was necessary to help him stay healthy.

Perhaps that is WHY I get so adamant about certain things, because we've been there and done that. Now are son's problems he encountered because he threw a FB more often than the breaking ball, because he learned to use the slider in college and began to rely on it more often, or from some other reason. We don't know, no one really knows, do they?

There are so many risks, I suggest that parents and players understand the risks vs rewards. Throwing 90+ was a reward, whether the FB was the most dangerous pitch, it doesn't matter, the reward paid off. Throwing 2 breaking balls towards the end of HS may have also been a risk, but IMO I would rather a pitcher take the risk developing his FB rather than using breaking balls to win games. So what was the cause of the issues, FB, slider? You tell me. You can't, because each pitcher is different they develop at different times, I think that is much of the point made here.



We may disagree in the importance of when things become important, someday you might understand that. I don't think there is ONE parent or player who does not looking in the rear view mirror. You will too. It may not be now, you'll see.

Regardless I still stand by my opinion that a HS pitcher does not need two breaking balls, especially at 16.

I see nothing wrong with hs kids learning breaking balls. TPM, your own son threw 2 different breaking balls in hs. Each kid is different, some get more spin than others. Some naturally throw harder than others. Two years ago my son worked a little with a retired professional pitcher. The one real thing we came away with from him was the philosophy of throwing all pitches hard. One of the big things I see from a lot of "average" hs pitchers is their almost complete lack of breaking ball control. Most of them throw their breaking ball way too slow- the slow loopy breaking ball that is more of a show me pitch because it can seldom be thrown with any control.

I am, a n d always have been, an advocate of getting pitchers to throw their breaking ball harder- you get tighter spin, later break, greater control. On average, and in general, your better polished hs pitchers are those who throw harder than average breaking balls and throw them with control.

Just like anywher e else, around here, no pitcher survives very long on the bump throwing just fastballs. Kids spend so much time anymore going to the cages, getting professional lessons, etc. that pitchers have to step up their game also. Lets face it, kids today are much better hitters than they were 30 years ago. Why is that? Because of the huge trend, at lea s t around here, to literally spend all year, endless hours hitting in cages and at practice to get better. Being competely honest, pitchers today need better stuff. Not necessarily velocity but learning to better command offspeed pitches. If you can command at least 2 different pitches, with decent velocity, you will more than likely succeed. My son has worked hard to command his breaking ball- its his out pitch and he and the batters he faces know it. They know he can throw it hard with control. Ask any ten batters what pitch they fear most and its going to be the hard breaking ball 10 out of 10 times. No batter likes a pitcher who throws hard deceptive breaking balls. Call them ,power curves, sliders, cutters, etc, a hard breaking ball thrown by a pitcher who has command of it is most feared. I am not understating the importance of a pitcher to work on his fastball, dont get me wrong, I am just trying to make the point that most hs pitchers breaking balls suck- they are too slow, lack any real command or authority, and are generally not worked on in practice to get to that point where it can make a pitcher polished and good.

If the fastball is developed well enough to go after a slider/second breaking pitch, why not look into a cutter? Can be the key to getting the opposite hand hitter out, something the slider is not nearly is good at. Requires less/zero elbow torque. At higher levels, the deceptiveness is higher.

My son will learn fastball (and learn to move it)...then a circle changeup. I would then have him work on a cutter. The overhand curve will come easily and he'll probably have played around with it by then. At higher levels the curve is best used sparingly, anyway, as fast-change-cutter/slider become more bread and butter pitches.

quote:

If the fastball is developed well enough to go after a slider/second breaking pitch, why not look into a cutter? Can be the key to getting the opposite hand hitter out, something the slider is not nearly is good at. Requires less/zero elbow torque. At higher levels, the deceptiveness is higher.

Doesn't the cutter requires you to flip your wrist hard?

quote:

Just like anywher e else, around here, no pitcher survives very long on the bump throwing just fastballs.

In your opinion, is a change up considered as a breaking ball? It is definitely not a fastball.

quote:

Doesn't the cutter requires you to flip your wrist hard?

Not at all, it is a seam oriented pitch, much like a sinker only on the opposite side of the ball. It like the sinker and for that matter a "true" slider are fast ball varients,as with what the Rocket shows in this vid
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=evitsfnNgR0

quote:

I wish that I had known much more than I do now. Like so many of those that are way passed HS and college.

We tried to do whatever we felt was necessary to help him stay healthy.

Perhaps that is WHY I get so adamant about certain things, because we've been there and done that. Now are son's problems he encountered because he threw a FB more often than the breaking ball, because he learned to use the slider in college and began to rely on it more often, or from some other reason. We don't know, no one really knows, do they?

There are so many risks, I suggest that parents and players understand the risks vs rewards. Throwing 90+ was a reward, whether the FB was the most dangerous pitch, it doesn't matter, the reward paid off. Throwing 2 breaking balls towards the end of HS may have also been a risk, but IMO I would rather a pitcher take the risk developing his FB rather than using breaking balls to win games. So what was the cause of the issues, FB, slider? You tell me. You can't, because each pitcher is different they develop at different times, I think that is much of the point made here.

Thanks for sharing your experiences. My goal is to learn from other experiences and I'm facing the same issues as my son is getting into high school after the summer. The risk / reward trade-off is right on the mark. I too is learning from experiences and my main goal is to keep a healthy arms. Son might touch 80+ next spring and that's scare the living daylight out of me, how to manage risk and keep healthy for a young arm. I'm asking a lot of question now to essentially manage the risk.

quote:

Originally posted by bball123:

quote:

I wish that I had known much more than I do now. Like so many of those that are way passed HS and college.

We tried to do whatever we felt was necessary to help him stay healthy.

Perhaps that is WHY I get so adamant about certain things, because we've been there and done that. Now are son's problems he encountered because he threw a FB more often than the breaking ball, because he learned to use the slider in college and began to rely on it more often, or from some other reason. We don't know, no one really knows, do they?

There are so many risks, I suggest that parents and players understand the risks vs rewards. Throwing 90+ was a reward, whether the FB was the most dangerous pitch, it doesn't matter, the reward paid off. Throwing 2 breaking balls towards the end of HS may have also been a risk, but IMO I would rather a pitcher take the risk developing his FB rather than using breaking balls to win games. So what was the cause of the issues, FB, slider? You tell me. You can't, because each pitcher is different they develop at different times, I think that is much of the point made here.

Thanks for sharing your experiences. My goal is to learn from other experiences and I'm facing the same issues as my son is getting into high school after the summer. The risk / reward trade-off is right on the mark. I too is learning from experiences and my main goal is to keep a healthy arms. Son might touch 80+ next spring and that's scare the living daylight out of me, how to manage risk and keep healthy for a young arm. I'm asking a lot of question now to essentially manage the risk.

No problem at all. My son has been through HS, college and a professional. Never having an issue, he managed to get through HS, college and then had some setbacks as a professional.

Sheet happens.

The whole object is to get through HS, then college healthy. The other stuff will take care of itself.

You have to learn to read through everything and try to figure out what works best for your player and where the info is coming from.

Over the years, here, the most frequent question asked is how to raise a pitchers velocity, not how to throw a better breaking ball. When attending showcases or games, what catches a coaches or scouts attention is velocity. Everything else is secondary. Always keep that in mind.

quote:

Not at all, it is a seam oriented pitch, much like a sinker only on the opposite side of the ball. It like the sinker and for that matter a "true" slider are fast ball varients,as with what the Rocket shows in this vid
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=evitsfnNgR0

I guess there are many variations to it, just like CB where for one variant you don't have to rotate your elbow.

Here is the different look to cutter with snapping of wrist:
http://baseball.about.com/od/t...s/ss/fastballs_4.htm

My guess is how much a cut do you want it the flight path.

If there is a elbow torque (the mechanic in question for sliders) in a cutter, then it is not a cutter. As said well already, it is a fastball variant like the 2-seamer/sinker.

See Mariano Rivera and Greg Maddux for more details on cutting the fastball

If the cutter was so easy to learn, everyone would be throwing it.

That's one issue I see here, many boasting their sons can throw 4-5 pitches, sure, jack of all trades but master of none.

No wonder there are so many injuries among youth pitchers.

Now TPM, who said it was easy? I consider the whole family to be pitches that take quite a bit of strength/velocity, dexterity...its one thing to see The Rocket do it, it is another thing all together for a kid to develop them correctly

quote:

No problem at all. My son has been through HS, college and a professional. Never having an issue, he managed to get through HS, college and plays professional ball.

You have to learn to read through everything and try to figure out what works best for your player and where the info is coming from.

Over the years, here, the most frequent question asked is how to raise a pitchers velocity, not how to throw a better breaking ball.

Indeed I have tried to listen and also read a lot. I even heard coaches repeating the myth of getting a TJ surgery will increase pitching velocity. After the big scare when son was 11 throwing CB and slider, we decided to wait and not use them at all. He was very good with CB, one time in an all star game, after many FB pitches, he threw his first 12-to-6 CB in the game right down the middle, the batter froze and the umpire called it a ball, then embarrassed, the umpire turned to my son's coach and said jokingly, "next time you call for a CB, please let me know". We still laugh about that recalling it. Now son could paint the four corners pretty well with FB in the big field and could get most batters out this way. I tried to encourage him to throw more CU. Yesterday, he pitched the last 3 innings to close the game. After the game, I asked him whether he had thrown any CU. His answer, "0". Go figure.

quote:

If there is a elbow torque (the mechanic in question for sliders) in a cutter, then it is not a cutter. As said well already, it is a fastball variant like the 2-seamer/sinker.

See Mariano Rivera and Greg Maddux for more details on cutting the fastball

I am more worried about the wrist snapping in the cutter:
http://baseball.about.com/od/t...s/ss/fastballs_4.htm

"The cut fastball is thrown similar to the four-seam fastball, across the seams. It's a little more advanced pitch.

The difference: Rotate your middle and index finger and bring them together, leaving your middle finger along the seam of the closed end of U-shaped seam. Bring your thumb slightly up the inside of the ball.

When you follow through, snap your wrist down while applying pressure with your middle finger."

quote:

If the cutter was so easy to learn, everyone would be throwing it.

That's one issue I see here, many boasting their sons can throw 4-5 pitches, sure, jack of all trades but master of none.

No wonder there are so many injuries among youth pitchers.

I have to agree with that.

Ok, I have to admit that I learned of the wrist snapping with the cutter from my son. When I first suggested that to him years', he said, "Dad you want me to SNAP my wrist?".

The is a variant where you don't snap your wrist. My son used it when he was 10 to strike out 12-year old batters. He did not have the speed to blow past them. It did not cut as much but when placed at the knee outside corner, most batters won't be able to reach it. We didn't know it was a cutter-like until coach asked son to show it to him; the coach remarked that it looked like a cutter. The funny thing was that the catcher was the coach's son and one time I over heard the catcher complaining (don't know why since we were on the same team) to his dad that the umpire called strike even when he caught the ball six inches away from the plate on the outside, raising his hands to show how far it away. That was why the coach had my son show him the pitch in the next practice.

quote:

Originally posted by jdfromfla:
Now TPM, who said it was easy? I consider the whole family to be pitches that take quite a bit of strength/velocity, dexterity...its one thing to see The Rocket do it, it is another thing all together for a kid to develop them correctly