So let me get this straight.
-Bat flips
-Emotion on the mound
-Emotion in the batters box
-Emotion on a bad call
All of these will turn RC's off from recruiting you....but if the pitcher beans the next kid up on purpose that is perfectly fine because he deserved it for what his teammate did?
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Understand that very often, drilling a hitter intentionally has no emotional component whatsoever. I can tell you from experience, I have been in a spot as a reliever where it just so happens that I am entering a game situation where the "unwritten rules" dictate that it is my "job" to drill the next guy at the plate. He probably had nothing to do with the original offense & I definitely had nothing to do with it either, but we both know what's going to happen.
Now, if I choose to pass on this "opportunity," nothing will really happen to me but my team & manager will know that I am not the guy who will back you up when the chips are down. I will NOT be the guy you want in the foxhole, so I drill his a** & he either comes out or goes to 1B. I get respect from my team & particularly, my manager, if he is old school.
This is called "Making Baseball Fun Again."
So in the example of Strickland. Clearly it was an emotional & unjustified act. Therefore, when the Giants visit DC in August, someone on the Nats Staff is going to light up a Giants hitter (probably Posey; you drill our best, we drill your best, is the rule). As predictable as the sun coming up in the East.
They will pick a spot that makes sense given the score & inning & he will wear one. These guys don't forget.
Steve A. posted:Understand that very often, drilling a hitter intentionally has no emotional component whatsoever. I can tell you from experience, I have been in a spot as a reliever where it just so happens that I am entering a game situation where the "unwritten rules" dictate that it is my "job" to drill the next guy at the plate. He probably had nothing to do with the original offense & I definitely had nothing to do with it either, but we both know what's going to happen.
Now, if I choose to pass on this "opportunity," nothing will really happen to me but my team & manager will know that I am not the guy who will back you up when the chips are down. I will NOT be the guy you want in the foxhole, so I drill his a** & he either comes out or goes to 1B. I get respect from my team & particularly, my manager, if he is old school.
This is called "Making Baseball Fun Again."
It's a very grey area. Competitive emotion is fine. Show boating is not.
Bryce Harper hit a solo HR in the 7th inning down 3 runs. He was up in the count 3-1. Strickland #1 priority was not to walk him. It was an inconsequential accomplishment to hit a HR in that scenario. I am sure it was chirped about a bit the way he admired his work from the plate. What got him pegged was the fact he did the exact same thing the second time and followed it up by giving Strickland the stink eye while rounding the bases.
Well, playing Devil's advocate a bit...
The examples you give are players unable to control their emotions. A batter getting drilled is often not a matter of emotion - well emotion may play a part, but it usually a calculated decision.
It's cavemanish I guess, but a scout/rc may look at a beaning as the pitcher's responsibility in some instances. Again, that doesn't mean it is "right" just what is "expected". He may look at as a pitcher defending his teammates. He might be turned off if a pitcher didn't plunk a batter in certain circumstances. Like I said, caveman mentality - but it's just how the game works sometimes.
If you are going to purposely bean a batter, causing another human being intentional pain, possibly ending his career, there should be emotion in there.
CaCO3Girl posted:If you are going to purposely bean a batter, causing another human being intentional pain, possibly ending his career, there should be emotion in there.
You see though, you are trying to apply a rational everyday type mentality to a testosterone filled pressure cooker situation. We can talk about what should be, but it is a far cry from what is.
I can't argue that it is intelligent - because really it isn't.
As an anecdotal example...
My son's freshman fall season he got called up to fill in on the mound with the varsity team. In the second or third inning of the first game one of the opponent's players came in cleats high on a play at second and tore up the 2nd baseman's leg.
My son went in to pitch a couple innings later and that player was the first batter up. The first pitch was a fastball right to his ribs. Now as a parent, I don't want him doing that. However I understand completely why he did it. Nobody told him to do it, and the play didn't even involve him to begin with. He felt that the guy he hit had intended to injure one of his teammates, and that he wasn't going to let it go unanswered. I don't like it, but given the circumstances I understand it.
real green posted:It's a very grey area. Competitive emotion is fine. Show boating is not.
Bryce Harper hit a solo HR in the 7th inning down 3 runs. He was up in the count 3-1. Strickland #1 priority was not to walk him. It was an inconsequential accomplishment to hit a HR in that scenario. I am sure it was chirped about a bit the way he admired his work from the plate. What got him pegged was the fact he did the exact same thing the second time and followed it up by giving Strickland the stink eye while rounding the bases.
Three years ago.
Rob T posted:CaCO3Girl posted:If you are going to purposely bean a batter, causing another human being intentional pain, possibly ending his career, there should be emotion in there.
You see though, you are trying to apply a rational everyday type mentality to a testosterone filled pressure cooker situation. We can talk about what should be, but it is a far cry from what is.
I can't argue that it is intelligent - because really it isn't.
As an anecdotal example...
My son's freshman fall season he got called up to fill in on the mound with the varsity team. In the second or third inning of the first game one of the opponent's players came in cleats high on a play at second and tore up the 2nd baseman's leg.
My son went in to pitch a couple innings later and that player was the first batter up. The first pitch was a fastball right to his ribs. Now as a parent, I don't want him doing that. However I understand completely why he did it. Nobody told him to do it, and the play didn't even involve him to begin with. He felt that the guy he hit had intended to injure one of his teammates, and that he wasn't going to let it go unanswered. I don't like it, but given the circumstances I understand it.
Maybe not the best example. When it comes to a "dirty" play, or one simply perceived to be dirty without apology, then yes when that particular guy comes back up, maybe fair game. That circumstance is more about discipline and not letting some jerk get away with potentially injuring a teammate. The whole "stink eye" is another situation altogether. Maybe Harper has had bouts of seasickness when running the bases after a home run and simply chose to stare towards the middle of the field the whole time so as not the throw up. Or maybe (most likely) he was making sure Strickland understood that he lost the battle (and not just some single, but a dinger). Second time Harper was piling on, but again Strickland lost round #2. It's not like Harper ran over to the mound and kicked Strickland or tried to break one of his fingers. Harper emoted and for that he had a projectile thrown at him at 98mph with the intent to cause pain and a high likelihood of causing injury.
As had been said here earlier, I would have had more respect for Strickland if he proceeded to strike out Harper and then taunt him.
As Tony Soprano once said, "Revenge is like cold cuts."
Calculation, not emotion.
Steve A. posted:So in the example of Strickland. Clearly it was an emotional & unjustified act. Therefore, when the Giants visit DC in August, someone on the Nats Staff is going to light up a Giants hitter (probably Posey; you drill our best, we drill your best, is the rule). As predictable as the sun coming up in the East.
They will pick a spot that makes sense given the score & inning & he will wear one. These guys don't forget.
It may be nothing happens. Manfred will step in. He won't want this turning into a Red Sox-Orioles scenario. These teams were throwing at each other for looking cross eyed at each other until Manfred stepped in.
I am totally ok with hitting batters who deserve it, it is part of the game and always will be. couple examples
a huge bat flip and stare down
come in spikes high and attacking a middle infielder
other teams pitchers continually knocking down our hitters to own the inside
blowing up the catcher without cause
any of those and some others are going to get somebody thumped, both teams know it, it is what it is.
That being said in this case I don't support it, I do agree that Harper is punk but it was out of line. I don't believe in hitting a guy for being successful, if goes yard and does right, you just move on and throw a better pitch next time. there is a right way and wrong way to go about it.
to quote Chase Utley when asked if he liked being hit by pitches "well I don't hate it"
RJM posted:Steve A. posted:So in the example of Strickland. Clearly it was an emotional & unjustified act. Therefore, when the Giants visit DC in August, someone on the Nats Staff is going to light up a Giants hitter (probably Posey; you drill our best, we drill your best, is the rule). As predictable as the sun coming up in the East.
They will pick a spot that makes sense given the score & inning & he will wear one. These guys don't forget.
It may be nothing happens. Mandred will step in. He won't want this turning into a Red Sox-Orioles scenario. These teams were throwing at each other for looking cross eyed at each other until Manfred stepped in.
It's quite possible he already has behind the scenes. But even so, boys will be boys sometimes...
CaCO3Girl posted:If you are going to purposely bean a batter, causing another human being intentional pain, possibly ending his career, there should be emotion in there.
There are rules, no head hunting, and no intentional taking a player out of the game. Sometimes they make the rookie do the dirty work.
Most of the time this stuff is figured out to occur during a specific series, but when the time is right. This one took 2 seasons before payback?
It sounds so silly, but this is just another part of the game going on within the game.
CaCO3Girl posted:If you are going to purposely bean a batter, causing another human being intentional pain, possibly ending his career, there should be emotion in there.
I think putting it that way is more emotional than accurate in describing this specific incident. Wouldn't you agree that a pitch up and in is a legitimate pitch that a pitcher needs to be able to throw in order to be successful? That pitch is in closer proximity to the batter's head and face, and therefore more likely to end a career, should it miss badly, than the pitch Strickland threw at Harper.
Throwing high at or behind a hitter is one thing. Throwing at the belt area and below is another.
BTW I'm not justifying what Strickland did. It was stupid.
TPM posted:CaCO3Girl posted:If you are going to purposely bean a batter, causing another human being intentional pain, possibly ending his career, there should be emotion in there.
There are rules, no head hunting, and no intentional taking a player out of the game. Sometimes they make the rookie do the dirty work.
Most of the time this stuff is figured out to occur during a specific series, but when the time is right. This one took 2 seasons before payback?
It sounds so silly, but this is just another part of the game going on within the game.
It's beyond silly to possibly end someone's career over a perceived slight....but a 16u kid throws his bat in the dugout after a strikeout and he's the nut job who is crossed off a coaches list?
CaCO3Girl posted:TPM posted:CaCO3Girl posted:If you are going to purposely bean a batter, causing another human being intentional pain, possibly ending his career, there should be emotion in there.
There are rules, no head hunting, and no intentional taking a player out of the game. Sometimes they make the rookie do the dirty work.
Most of the time this stuff is figured out to occur during a specific series, but when the time is right. This one took 2 seasons before payback?
It sounds so silly, but this is just another part of the game going on within the game.
It's beyond silly to possibly end someone's career over a perceived slight....but a 16u kid throws his bat in the dugout after a strikeout and he's the nut job who is crossed off a coaches list?
The risk is so minuscule that it's insignificant. Harper had a bigger risk of busting up his hand if he would have landed a punch.
You tell me. Would you prefer a player that throws a pity party every time he failed or a player that is perceived to stand up for his team?
real green posted:CaCO3Girl posted:TPM posted:CaCO3Girl posted:If you are going to purposely bean a batter, causing another human being intentional pain, possibly ending his career, there should be emotion in there.
There are rules, no head hunting, and no intentional taking a player out of the game. Sometimes they make the rookie do the dirty work.
Most of the time this stuff is figured out to occur during a specific series, but when the time is right. This one took 2 seasons before payback?
It sounds so silly, but this is just another part of the game going on within the game.
It's beyond silly to possibly end someone's career over a perceived slight....but a 16u kid throws his bat in the dugout after a strikeout and he's the nut job who is crossed off a coaches list?
The risk is so minuscule that it's insignificant. Harper had a bigger risk of busting up his hand if he would have landed a punch.
You tell me. Would you prefer a player that throws a pity party every time he failed or a player that is perceived to stand up for his team?
Just my view but I think you are paying attention to the wrong message, especially with the analogy to the 16 year old throwing his bat in the dugout, assuming there is an analogy.
On the 16 year old, any good baseball coach is not going to stand for throwing the bat, especially in the dugout. The reasons are too numerous to mention.
As it relates to Strickland, MLB did not approve and he is out 6 games while his team plays with the loss of a roster spot for those 6 games.
His manager did not approve and said so after the game and met with Strickland about his actions. In fact, there is very little support anywhere for Strickland.
In my view, that is the message to be learned and applied to the 16 year old who cannot control his temper and throws a tantrum, showing the pitcher is in his head and probably disrupting the focus of his teammates.
infielddad posted:real green posted:CaCO3Girl posted:TPM posted:CaCO3Girl posted:If you are going to purposely bean a batter, causing another human being intentional pain, possibly ending his career, there should be emotion in there.
There are rules, no head hunting, and no intentional taking a player out of the game. Sometimes they make the rookie do the dirty work.
Most of the time this stuff is figured out to occur during a specific series, but when the time is right. This one took 2 seasons before payback?
It sounds so silly, but this is just another part of the game going on within the game.
It's beyond silly to possibly end someone's career over a perceived slight....but a 16u kid throws his bat in the dugout after a strikeout and he's the nut job who is crossed off a coaches list?
The risk is so minuscule that it's insignificant. Harper had a bigger risk of busting up his hand if he would have landed a punch.
You tell me. Would you prefer a player that throws a pity party every time he failed or a player that is perceived to stand up for his team?
Just my view but I think you are paying attention to the wrong message, especially with the analogy to the 16 year old throwing his bat in the dugout, assuming there is an analogy.
On the 16 year old, any good baseball coach is not going to stand for throwing the bat, especially in the dugout. The reasons are too numerous to mention.
As it relates to Strickland, MLB did not approve and he is out 6 games while his team plays with the loss of a roster spot for those 6 games.
His manager did not approve and said so after the game and met with Strickland about his actions. In fact, there is very little support anywhere for Strickland.
In my view, that is the message to be learned and applied to the 16 year old who cannot control his temper and throws a tantrum, showing the pitcher is in his head and probably disrupting the focus of his teammates.
Yes! Everyone is so quick to say HBP on purpose is part of the game, well loosing your temper is part of being 16. Why is one acceptable and the other will be unacceptable?
At the professional level, where players get paid, there is a history going back many years that in a "few" circumstances payback is okay. Even at the professional level, we see situations where temper and anger don't get controlled and situations get out of control (think Orioles/RedSox and the Milb player throwing baseballs during an on field situation.)
At age 16, you are learning the game and should be learning to control your emotions, especially on a baseball field. Trying to justify the conduct of the 16 year old with what happens on a MLB/MILB field doesn't work for me. In my view, baseball is about respecting the game, your teammates, your opponents and conducting yourself accordingly.
I can guarantee you our son's HS coach would bench that 16 year old, explain why and what improvement was needed, and would cut the conversation very short if the 16 year old said "But what about Strickland and Harper."
CaCO3Girl posted:infielddad posted:real green posted:CaCO3Girl posted:TPM posted:CaCO3Girl posted:If you are going to purposely bean a batter, causing another human being intentional pain, possibly ending his career, there should be emotion in there.
There are rules, no head hunting, and no intentional taking a player out of the game. Sometimes they make the rookie do the dirty work.
Most of the time this stuff is figured out to occur during a specific series, but when the time is right. This one took 2 seasons before payback?
It sounds so silly, but this is just another part of the game going on within the game.
It's beyond silly to possibly end someone's career over a perceived slight....but a 16u kid throws his bat in the dugout after a strikeout and he's the nut job who is crossed off a coaches list?
The risk is so minuscule that it's insignificant. Harper had a bigger risk of busting up his hand if he would have landed a punch.
You tell me. Would you prefer a player that throws a pity party every time he failed or a player that is perceived to stand up for his team?
Just my view but I think you are paying attention to the wrong message, especially with the analogy to the 16 year old throwing his bat in the dugout, assuming there is an analogy.
On the 16 year old, any good baseball coach is not going to stand for throwing the bat, especially in the dugout. The reasons are too numerous to mention.
As it relates to Strickland, MLB did not approve and he is out 6 games while his team plays with the loss of a roster spot for those 6 games.
His manager did not approve and said so after the game and met with Strickland about his actions. In fact, there is very little support anywhere for Strickland.
In my view, that is the message to be learned and applied to the 16 year old who cannot control his temper and throws a tantrum, showing the pitcher is in his head and probably disrupting the focus of his teammates.
Yes! Everyone is so quick to say HBP on purpose is part of the game, well loosing your temper is part of being 16. Why is one acceptable and the other will be unacceptable?
because throwing a bean ball isn't the result of losing control of your emotions. It is unacceptable for a 16yr old to loose control of his actions over a K. Of course it's a normal reaction for a 16 yr old to get upset over a bad performance or unjustified called K. It's not normal to throw a tantrum and lose control of your actions.
infielddad posted:At the professional level, where players get paid, there is a history going back many years that in a "few" circumstances payback is okay. Even at the professional level, we see situations where temper and anger don't get controlled and situations get out of control (think Orioles/RedSox and the Milb player throwing baseballs during an on field situation.)
At age 16, you are learning the game and should be learning to control your emotions, especially on a baseball field. Trying to justify the conduct of the 16 year old with what happens on a MLB/MILB field doesn't work for me. In my view, baseball is about respecting the game, your teammates, your opponents and conducting yourself accordingly.
I can guarantee you our son's HS coach would bench that 16 year old, explain why and what improvement was needed, and would cut the conversation very short if the 16 year old said "But what about Strickland and Harper."
Well said!
My son spiked F3's shin pretty bad. It was an accident of carelessness during a bang bang play on a swinging bunt. Next AB high and tight twice but him on the ground. On the way home we discussed the scenario. It took him a minute to understand it was his duty out of respect for his opponent to insure he didn't slide his spike down the kids shin. Even if it gave a slight advantage to the defense. His carelessness injured a player in which in return the opposing pitcher returned the lack of respect for his safety.
Another scenario, our pitcher was a runner on second. SS was kicking dirt at his shoes and slap tagged him hard to the head twice on pick attempts. Words were exchanged between the two. Next AB for the SS, he took one to the hip.
I have no problem with this part of the game. You are in a battle on the field. There are specific boundaries you don't cross.
infielddad posted:At the professional level, where players get paid, there is a history going back many years that in a "few" circumstances payback is okay. Even at the professional level, we see situations where temper and anger don't get controlled and situations get out of control (think Orioles/RedSox and the Milb player throwing baseballs during an on field situation.)
At age 16, you are learning the game and should be learning to control your emotions, especially on a baseball field. Trying to justify the conduct of the 16 year old with what happens on a MLB/MILB field doesn't work for me. In my view, baseball is about respecting the game, your teammates, your opponents and conducting yourself accordingly.
I can guarantee you our son's HS coach would bench that 16 year old, explain why and what improvement was needed, and would cut the conversation very short if the 16 year old said "But what about Strickland and Harper."
Best explanation, thank you.
I use MLB as an example because it's visible to all, whereas HS isn't.
This you must be stoic you must show no emotion I don't get why it's a bad thing. What other sport is training its players to be stoic?
Obviousky, running over to the opposing dugout after the game and taunting them on their loss is poor sportsmanship but what about the kid who's team is down by one and he just hit a double...can't he be happy about that? Is a fist pump really wrong in that case?
What about the kid who struck out on a "strike" in the dirt, can't he have a look of utter disbelief on his face? Isn't it warranted? Not yell at the ump, just stand there for a second with his mouth open staring at the ump and then shake his head and walk to the dugout? Is THAT over the line too?
Where is this line of showing emotion gets you in trouble in the recruiting world?
CaCO3Girl posted:I use MLB as an example because it's visible to all, whereas HS isn't.
This you must be stoic you must show no emotion I don't get why it's a bad thing. What other sport is training its players to be stoic?
I think this is just in the US. For the past several years we have seen the WBC showcase players from other countries that play with great emotion. It seems the Latin players learn to play the game with emotion where as here in the US, "Emotions are Bad".
CaCO3Girl posted:Where is this line of showing emotion gets you in trouble in the recruiting world?
There are both positive and negative emotions. Sulking, complaining, throwing bats/helmets, and taunting opponents are all things that stem from negative emotions. They aren't the traits that recruiters and coaches want to see.
Being enthusiastic about things you or your teammates do is fine. It's a positive emotion. There is nothing wrong with a fist pump if you aren't directing it at the other team. You can be happy for yourself and your teammates without shoving it in the face of the other team. There is a big difference between a display that says, "I'm pumped up about what just happened" and one that says, "Ha Ha you suck."
Recruiters and coaches don't have an issue with players who show emotion - they have a problem with players who can't control their emotions.
I can recall a few times my son protected his team mates in travel ball and HS. Nothing was ever called and no one knew it would happen. Sometimes, it's okay to order the Code Red.
real green posted:infielddad posted:At the professional level, where players get paid, there is a history going back many years that in a "few" circumstances payback is okay. Even at the professional level, we see situations where temper and anger don't get controlled and situations get out of control (think Orioles/RedSox and the Milb player throwing baseballs during an on field situation.)
At age 16, you are learning the game and should be learning to control your emotions, especially on a baseball field. Trying to justify the conduct of the 16 year old with what happens on a MLB/MILB field doesn't work for me. In my view, baseball is about respecting the game, your teammates, your opponents and conducting yourself accordingly.
I can guarantee you our son's HS coach would bench that 16 year old, explain why and what improvement was needed, and would cut the conversation very short if the 16 year old said "But what about Strickland and Harper."
Well said!
My son spiked F3's shin pretty bad. It was an accident of carelessness during a bang bang play on a swinging bunt. Next AB high and tight twice but him on the ground. On the way home we discussed the scenario. It took him a minute to understand it was his duty out of respect for his opponent to insure he didn't slide his spike down the kids shin. Even if it gave a slight advantage to the defense. His carelessness injured a player in which in return the opposing pitcher returned the lack of respect for his safety.
Another scenario, our pitcher was a runner on second. SS was kicking dirt at his shoes and slap tagged him hard to the head twice on pick attempts. Words were exchanged between the two. Next AB for the SS, he took one to the hip.
I have no problem with this part of the game. You are in a battle on the field. There are specific boundaries you don't cross.
Again, poor examples as it relates to Harper/Strickland. Did Harper's "stink eye" gravely injure Strickland's soul? And the whole bat flip thing - can a guy not celebrate?
That said, I do think the pitcher should be able to stand on the 3B line (a new hash mark about half way between HP and 3B) and if the guy that just hit a dinger doesn't make it past the hash mark in under XX seconds, then the pitcher gets to whack him in his face with the glove - and maybe try to trip him. Don't make the guy run, but no more fast walking. Two exceptions - first HR in that league or a walk off where the other team is already running off the field.
CaCO3Girl posted:I use MLB as an example because it's visible to all, whereas HS isn't.
This you must be stoic you must show no emotion I don't get why it's a bad thing. What other sport is training its players to be stoic?
Obviousky, running over to the opposing dugout after the game and taunting them on their loss is poor sportsmanship but what about the kid who's team is down by one and he just hit a double...can't he be happy about that? Is a fist pump really wrong in that case?
What about the kid who struck out on a "strike" in the dirt, can't he have a look of utter disbelief on his face? Isn't it warranted? Not yell at the ump, just stand there for a second with his mouth open staring at the ump and then shake his head and walk to the dugout? Is THAT over the line too?
Where is this line of showing emotion gets you in trouble in the recruiting world?
There is no clear line. The line is probably best defined as this: Try not to demonstrate any behavior that would be a negative from the varying viewpoints of a "college recruiter."
If you strike out & fling your bat into your own dugout, you would be off my list instantly. If you drill a hitter after your guy got intentionally drilled, you would move up on my list. These actions are not even in the same zip code.
However, this is MY list. It is not a universal list for all college recruiters & some would surely see it differently.
INFIELDDAD explained it well. Sometimes what is normal baseball at the professional level is a bad example for the amateur level. Especially at the younger ages.
In a MLB game it is one of those unwritten rules. These guys get paid! It is dangerous, but in most cases hitters are injured by other pitches that hit them rather than the so called intentional beaning. I personally think there is no place for this with younger kids. It is very dangerous and could cause major injury. We have seen kids get seriously injured from getting hit with a pitch. It doesn't have to be a 90+ heater... We have seen upper 70s cause serious injury. Coaches need to teach their hitters how to avoid serious injury when possible. Unfortunately there are youth coaches thinking they are a ML manager instructing their young pitcher to bean a young hitter.
The kids can learn those things when they get much older. There is no place for it until then.
But throwing inside is important. Pitchers can't be afraid to hit someone.
CaCO3Girl posted:If you are going to purposely bean a batter, causing another human being intentional pain, possibly ending his career, there should be emotion in there.
You are correct. This doesn't belong in the game of baseball any more. I've even seen it at the high school level. It's criminal behavior. The baseball is a weapon. It isn't any different than the pro hockey player who goes headhunting with a hockey stick and gets charged with assault.
