So how long until Select competes with High School in TX?

Never going to happen. Dads are dads. Kids will want to play for their school. Wait till you get to varsity and you'll understand.

I think it could happen if schools start losing funding, but I think there still is a strong allure to play high school ball. It has its flaws, but I see it as a kind of a warm up for the Summer season, and a chance for the kid to work on his skills a little bit every day. You don't get that in Select ball as it is hard to get the kids together more than once a week, (and worse on programs like the Tigers that have kids from different parts of the metroplex/state).

Hope it never comes to that. So wrong.

I understand both sides of the equation, but I am not so quick to poo-poo this idea.

I have one son who played for a below average 5A program who went to the playoffs one year in his 4 years there. His coach the first three years was decent, his senior year the coach was terrible. He is now playing minor league ball, but if you asked him, he would have played select all the way through.

I have another son playing for a 4A (new) school that opened in the district a few years ago. The program is new...second year of varsity, but none of the coaching staff is experienced in baseball...football coaches coaching baseball. Nice guys and they are trying...just don't know the game.

Those of you that want to keep high school baseball at the schools, I bet your kids' teams are really good and perennial playoff contenders and it is probably fun to go to the games. But those of us whose kids attend schools with bad baseball programs, I bet you would get a different answer.

A few years ago, I would have never said this, but I would like to see non-revenue sports like s****r, baseball, softball, etc., taken out of schools and placed in select. The administrators would love the relief from the cost and we would all adjust to the change.

It would be an absolute travesty if that was to happen. Baseball is already becoming like golf, tennis and gymnastics where only the affluent can afford to play the game. With the cost of travel teams, hitting and pitching lessons etc many kids can't afford to play at the highest levels. High school is quickly becoming one of the fewer venues where a kid simply by living in a certain geographical area/school district can be able to play the game at a reasonable cost. It also is so much purer than travel ball because your teamates are determined by the common denominator of where you live not what a kid's parent can afford to pay.

The concept of free agency where a player/parent does not like the current team/coach/ organization can take their dollars and negotiate a better playing situation by switching teams is most prevalent in the travel team concept. Parents/players do not have to work through issues just switch travel teams and everything will be alright. Very few parents are in a position to sell their house and move in a more favorable school district because they do not like the school's baseball coach/team. This is some times the first time a parent/kid actually has to work through a tough situation such as playing time, team dynamics getting along with a coach etc because they have no alternative but to tough it out and make it work. Oh I am sorry that is what we adults call life.

Look I understand that playing high school ball can sometimes be a challenge because of these issues but I for one am glad that my son had to find away to make it work. I have not always agreed with my son's coaches approach but it has made my son a better young man because his only alternative was to figure it out and make it work. If it was a travel team situation, after finishing his commitment he would probably have searched out a more favorable opportunity.

I have found that playing for your highschool where your friends go to school, you party together, go to prom together, know each other girlfriends, study together has been so much more real for my son than the free agency relationships that develop by showing up and playing together with a bunch of guys that the team changes on a yearly basis. Not to say that travel team friendships don't exist and are not rich in themselves but there is something different playing for your highschool team for the district or state championship than some forgetful tournament where the goal was to showcase your skills in hopes of getting a scholarship.

So please as we sometimes discount highschool ball lets not forget the great memories these kids will have years from now when they open their yearbooks and show their children a glimpse of their past by talking about the good times they had with guys they went to school with and the lessons they learned. Nothing against travel ball because my son played travel ball for years but he won't be showing a yearbook to his kids of his travel ball experience.

Just so there is no confusion he has had a great time, formed a lot of relationships and learned a lot of lessons by playing travel ball but this was also the case with highschool. In both situations there has been good and bad but I for one am glad that he had both of these experiences.

Life's lessons come in many different forms.

As I mentioned, my son played played on ****ty teams but still did enough to make it as far as he has. My whole point is local ball isn't as polly anna community supported as you described above. My son fought through a bad program to get where he is...maybe that made him better, maybe not.

But, with budget cuts and baseball being a step-child sport, there is some merit to what is described above. It won't happen in my younger son's baseball life, but to sit there and say it shouldn't happen because of some romantic idea of how baseball has been historically is short-sighted.

one thing to remimber is alot of the top select teams are coached by high school coaches

And, golden, my son has no contact with his high school teammates, but is in constant contact with his former Dallas Mustang teammates three years after he has graduated. Not every high school is the same small town USA school you described above.

To tychco my son is currently playing for a 5a school not a small town school. Also I never said he did not form relationships with his travel teammates. In terms of which relationships will stand the test of time only time will tell.

quote:

Originally posted by tychco:
And, golden, my son has no contact with his high school teammates, but is in constant contact with his former Dallas Mustang teammates three years after he has graduated. Not every high school is the same small town USA school you described above.

...and not every summer club team is as you describe your son experienced!

My son played at a 5A hich school, played on the top select team in his age group, went to a top D1 college, played in the college world series, and is now playing minor league ball. If you asked him today what has been the most fun he has had playing he would tell you college followed by highschool.

Making kids choose between playing for their high school and playing select is a mistake. Lack of funding for non revenue sports is a bad excuse. There are plenty of other ways the school systems waste our money besides non revenue sports.

I suppose every experience is different and I didn't mean to insinuate that this is the only way. I just wanted to offer up that it isn't out of the realm of possibility that baseball could head in that direction.

Tycho,

Did you say your son played for the Dallas Mustangs?

I just wanted to finish with one last comment on this subject because I realize that some kids have had horrible high school situations. In all honesty when we were living in another state before we moved to Texas my youngest son would have been slated to play high school for a perenial national powerhouse that is ranked in the top 25 and 50 in the country on a yearly basis. We moved from that state when he was going on 13. My wife and I have some times wondered what we would have done had we stayed there because the coach was real piece of work and folks in that area were very intimidated by him because they did not want their kids' chance of playing on his team jeopardized.

I was to ignorant or to prideful to know that I should kiss his A**. But my wife and I were not from there. We had only lived there for two years before I made another career move. I felt sorry for the parents that they allowed him to bully them but in that part of the state he was the king.

At that time my son was playing for a guy affilated with a MLB team scouting department who also coached a travel team. He stated to me that one day we would not have to put up with that kind of stuff because kids will not have to play high school ball. They will have the option to just play travel ball. At the time I was intrigued and excited about the possibility because I trully did not want my son to play for that coach. I never had to address that issue because we eventually moved from that area to the DFW area.

My point is that in all honesty I can understand why folks would want travel ball as an option to playing highschool. My fear is that the really bad high school situation is probably the exception and not the rule, that by replacing highschool would be like opening Pandoras' Box or throwing the baby out with the bath water. I just think it is to exteme for all of the reasons I stated in my earlier post. To Tycho I understand where on a case by case situation it can make sense but on a collective level it really scares me because many kids who already have had their opportunities limited because of the expense of travel ball will have no opportunities if high school ball goes away. In addition the value of teaching kids how to work through a situation instead of always buying your way out of a problem by just switching travel teams. Just my two cents.

Golden, very well put. Yes, Newscout, he played for the Dallas Mustangs.

Y’all forget why kids have a great desire to play HS baseball, and especially VARSITY FOOTBALL. They’re HS teens…………

What do teens (HS Athletes) like? They like girls, socializing, camaraderie, HS VARSITY glory, VARSITY glamour, HS Rah-Rah, Letter Jackets, etc…… You can’t get that from select ball.

Select ball (at the higher levels) gives you professional coaching and puts you around other talented boys to show your stuff in a “baseball factory” environment.

At your son’s next HS ballgame, look around the stands and count the number of HS girls that are hanging (distracting IMHO) around. Get it.

I believe high school baseball as we know it will be changing over the next few years.There will be a spring league one day in the near future, and most of the talent will be playing in it. And it will be saving some kid's arms. Its already happening in California as some of you have read. Most of the kids I've been around have nothing to do with the kids they played with in high school after they are through with high school ball. It didn't use to be that way back in the day, but its that way now. There are a few exceptions. Spring select ball sounds like a great idea for a certain company in the metroplex to get started. The kids could get a lot better instruction and more quality practices. Plus at most of the high schools the number of kids coming out to play ball are really dropping off. Except for Plano, Allen, Frisco, and Flower Mound. And at some schools the principals kid, or the head football coaches kid, gets to play over a kid that really is better, but the coach wont play him, because he may lose his job even though he has never had losing season and been to the playoffs for 15 years. After some of you have been through 4 years of high school ball you will understand what some of us are talking about. Heard this from a kid one day, Kid tell's his coach that he committed to certain college, coach say's, you know that aren't going to be as good as they were last year, not congrats, or great job, just that bulls**t. Run's his college pick down the whole season in front of the whole team, now that's somebody I want to play for. Most of the assistant's I've been around were bench warmers on there high school teams and resent the good players all the time.

After talking to several of my son's buddies and their parents about their first 2 years of HS ball, most would love to have another option. While on Varsity, they love it b/c baseball revolves around varsity. The subvarsity teams are there as ball pickers, field and maintenance and gophers. All these kids play other sports and none of the other sports operate in this manner.
If outside options come available, it will be b/c HS coaches have done it to themselves. When Jv kids sit in a dugout for 2 hours watching varsity hit and no long toss program is used; why be part of that program?

My son plays for a good high school just west of Fort Worth. The coach in all is very good t developing talent he is lacking in the communication department. I always wondered why most seniors after the season say they hated this man. But now knowing soe of the things he says to his players I can see where our program might crumble if a select league started in the spring. I'm not saying he should treat these kids with kit gloves but telling a kid the only reason he is starting is because someone else is hurt and reminding him of that all the time. Mind this is a coach that has taken his teams to the playoffs every year and was nationally ranked last year.


Now if it did turn and a spring league was developed I would have looked for a different select team for my son to play for. Our current team is good but if it going to be like those baseball academy's in South America I think I would expect a whole different package. With that would be cost. Jut wonder what it would cost to run something like what I have visioned?

quote:

But, with budget cuts and baseball being a step-child sport, there is some merit to what is described above.

By tychco

quote:

Most of the kids I've been around have nothing to do with the kids they played with in high school after they are through with high school ball. It didn't use to be that way back in the day, but its that way now.

by The Beast

Select vs. High School is always a great debate, and, in the past, has always co-existed.

But, I suspect that the process that I've quoted from tychco is in play, albeit more slowly than can be actually seen.

And, Beast, 90% of high school baseball players don't play past high school, so they really never have.

So, for 90% of players that played from age 5 on up, high school baseball is their crowning glory days, and, I hate to see that go away.

quote:

It didn't use to be that way back in the day, but its that way now

Beast, I think that is what prompted me to post. Did you mean that high school baseball is, for many, the end of the line?

I've enjoyed the elegant posts, but there is one thing that I think has not been mentioned.

Making the high school baseball team is the first time your son has ever had to compete for a spot on the team.......................

And, compete means that you have to beat out the principal's son, the head coach's football playing son, the stat keeper's son, the president of the booster club's son, and the incumbent senior in your position.

And, compete means that you have to find a place to play in college, be in shape when you get there, and beat out the incumbent senior, eventually.
The principal's son, the head coach's football playing son, the stat keeper's son, the president of the booster club's son, and the incumbent senior you beat out, won't be there.

And, to play in professional baseball, you have to outrun, out throw, and outhit everyone on the team ,who has many more years of experience than you, and the incoming drafted crop every year, to get a spot in the lineup . The principal's son, the head coach's football playing son, the stat keeper's son, the president of the booster club's son, and the incumbent senior you beat out, won't be there.

And, after three years, 98% of your draft class won't be there.

Just ain't fair, is it?

But, it is fun, ain't it, tychco?

As always, Tony, spot on!

Is something is missing??? I assume if there was a spring select league that it would not go over well with the high school coaches? Are there enough fields to play games if there was a big spring select league? If i'm a high school coach, you're not using my field to play games. You've taken kids off of my team for your select team? Find your own field!!! College fields are in use so where do you play these games? Plus, aren't a lot of select summer coaches, high school coaches? The same ones you complain about in this blog? Not happening!! It's not broken, don't fix it. Unless you're on the top one or two teams in a select program the problems are not that much different than high school. I hear the same complaints in summer ball that I hear in the spring. You just get to complain louder in the summer becasue you paid to play.

with the way most coaches treat the subvarsity teams, they probably wouldn't mind those kids going elsewhere...

quote:

Originally posted by Newscout:
Tycho,

Did you say your son played for the Dallas Mustangs?

I guess I mis-typed. It is DBAT Mustangs. He played a couple of years with the Dallas Mustangs pre-merger.

Isball you are missing something. The high school coaches coaching summer HS ball are not the ones discussed here or they would not last long in select ball. The coaches we discuss are the ones that have No long toss program, no regular bull pens, throw their pitchers 135 pitches week one of the season etc. Play all seniors regardless of talent and never cut anyone. Never cross the football coach and you are good. If DFW had a spring season that had the best players like s****r does we could leave the HS coaches to the players left over.

Then who would shag the balls and put up the equipment? That's what helps them become quality varsity players. All that actual baseball stuff doesn't matter until then.

quote:

Originally posted by OA5II:
After talking to several of my son's buddies and their parents about their first 2 years of HS ball, most would love to have another option. While on Varsity, they love it b/c baseball revolves around varsity. The subvarsity teams are there as ball pickers, field and maintenance and gophers. All these kids play other sports and none of the other sports operate in this manner.
If outside options come available, it will be b/c HS coaches have done it to themselves. When Jv kids sit in a dugout for 2 hours watching varsity hit and no long toss program is used; why be part of that program?

Ehhh.....for the most part it sounds like sour grapes. If "Johnny" is good enough to play for an elite select team, then he's probably playing for the high school team. And just because he's playing for a great select team at the 13-15U level, doesn't mean he's going to dominate at the high school varsity level. I think what most are missing is the fact they are upset there is not "paid for" playing time in high school. What would those players do if they had to pay to play and still rode the pine? My guess is, the player/parents would complain and eventually change teams. And if the high school coach is not very good, there is nothing keeping the parents from paying for private lessons. And as far as that goes, just like high school coaches, just because someone was an All-State high school player, played D1 ball, etc., does not make them a great coach of fundamentals/mechanics. Not everyone has the capacity to be a good teacher/motivator.

Another item, if high school ball went away, does anyone think prices for select ball will remain the same? I think not. First of all, select teamns would have to find fields to practice and play on. I don't see school districts paying for maintenance for baseball facilities they do not use, so select teams will have to purchase land and build facilities; all leading to increased costs to the player/parent.

All in all, I call B.S.. If the 10% or less that will go to the next level(s) want out of high school baseball then they will leave a lot of students to backfill them. The quality of H.S. play would surely suffer, but the competitive spirit would still be there. Rec ball may not be at the level of select ball, but I would argue the rec teams "compete" with each other.

My son is a freshman and when it comes to high school ball vs select, I like his view on it all.

His comment, "High school ball is fun, coaches don't get to pick, they have to use what they get with players. Select is different, pick what you want, go from there. I play to play hard and have fun with high school. I think my select team at 15u could beat the varsity team. It comes down to it, both are good for me to play."

I feel the high school coach I have to watch more than the select coach when it comes to pitch count for sure. A friend was at a game and said he watched a freshman pitcher go over 150 pitches. The dad complained and was told, "i have been coaching high school ball for 15 years"... All about that resume....

The select coaches seam to be worried about kids arms, protecting them to go farther than just Varsity.

Is one better than the other, everyone has a opinion on that. I think both have it's place, each will teach the kids something different. Key thing, stay involved, and don't feel bad stepping up to protect your son's arm. Other than that, does it really matter if "little timmy" doesn't get to play where he does on his select team in high school.. ?? lol

quote:

If the 10% or less that will go to the next level(s) want out of high school baseball then they will leave a lot of students to backfill them.

Clemson896, it's not the 10% or less that will go to the next level (s) that want out of high school baseball.

They are playing high school baseball.

It's the 10% behind them.................

But, IF high school baseball's demise is not greatly exaggerated, and IF select baseball could find places for them to play, it might be better for that next 10% to find a place to pay to play.

And, there's a few hound dogs around here that would like to get paid to coach. (Some more than others, some are worth it, and some are not.)

Former.....if that's the case, then would not then select baseball be watered down talent-wise during the spring? And those kids be pushed down the depth chart in the summer when the top 10% return from high school ball?

Eitherway, to me it all adds to a money issue. Schools wanting to budget cut, select organizations wanting to make more. Does any of it really reflect the essence of the game of baseball?

And as far as revenue sports go, I'd like to see some real numbers that indicates that football is truly a net gain when considering salaries of coaches, equipment, facilities, etc..

OA5II -The freshman and JV at the school my son is at rotates with the Varisty. While they are working in the cages, the other teams are on the field, and visa versa.

As far as friendships, my son has made some lasting friendship with the members of his select team, but also has lasting friendships with his HS teammates. He loves doing both and enjoys representing and playing for his school, win or lose.

quote:

Former.....if that's the case, then would not then select baseball be watered down talent-wise during the spring?

quote:

And those kids be pushed down the depth chart in the summer when the top 10% return from high school ball?

Yep and Yep.

And, that's why summer coaches and high school coaches work together most of the time.

Hard to see before you enter the process, and, while you are in the process, but the answer is that you play both.

Both are really vastly different creatures and both provide unique and very important experiences.

It's not an either or deal, you and your son will be glad that you participated in both.

Baseball is expensive, drug rehab is expensive, kids are expensive.......................

If you can't afford select, play high school baseball.

If you can afford select, play high school baseball.

I don't have any hard data to support my opinion, but there's not many, if any, baseball players that go on to play college, or professional baseball that have not played high school baseball.

Find a place to play.

(And, it shouldn't go unnoticed that a hound dawg showed up.)

Since I finished playing and found my second love of coaching about 15 years ago. I figured out one thing that still holds true:
Select Baseball, at least in North Texas, is about 10 years behind select s***er.

For the case of this topic, I hope that baseball does not follow USA s***er in preventing talented kids from playing baseball for their school. IMHO, it would be a travesty and would devalue the experience of high school athletics for so many kids,including, if not especially, the kids that have the talent and the work ethic to play beyond high school.

If you think that the only good reasons that your son is playing high school baseball is related to the talent in your school, their win-loss record, or whether your coach is a "good guy"; you are sadly and impossibly wrong.

The value of playing baseball for your school and the lessons that the kids learn are far too valuable to toss away.

IMG has a s****r/golf academy in Florida, Boliterri has tennis, Arizona Baseball Academy in Phoenix offers a HS curriculum around baseball. I am sure that I have missed a ton of others. Prime Academy is opening in Dallas and FW centered on The Truth select football.

We will have a baseball academy in North Texas in the next five years. That will be the first step, and may not be a bad option for some, as the existing academies are in other sports.

Personally, I hope it does not go beyond that stage. Further, I don't think that it will.

USA S****ers argument is that we need to keep the kids at a higher level to compete on the international stage. The same argument does not apply to baseball.

If select leagues for HS players are formed in North Texas, I will be the first to point out that those kids are......missing out. And, that their parents need to quit trying to control every aspect of their lives. The landing will be much harder for your sons if you dont let them skin their knees a little on the way.

Most of my son's friends have come to the realization that school is ball has nothing to do with development nor advancing their baseball skills or careers and just to take it as a place to have fun, they can deal with it.

When you are in mid-March and none of your sub-varsity pitchers have thrown a bull-pen, taken live batting practices, thrown long toss (outside of their own), taken fly balls, taken grounders or worked on pickoffs, how serious can kids really get about school ball?

quote:

Originally posted by OA5II:
Most of my son's friends have come to the realization that school is ball has nothing to do with development nor advancing their baseball skills or careers and just to take it as a place to have fun, they can deal with it.

When you are in mid-March and none of your sub-varsity pitchers have thrown a bull-pen, taken live batting practices, thrown long toss (outside of their own), taken fly balls, taken grounders or worked on pickoffs, how serious can kids really get about school ball?

My question is, how many times do they do that with a summer select team? Between league play and weekend tournaments, never really heard of select teams practicing more than once or twice (if they're lucky) a week. If a kid wants to improve, he has to take it upon himself to do the work on his own. The ones that end up standing out are the ones that don't rely on "team" practice.

I would still like to know where the people in favor of a HS select spring league would plan to play their games? I know there are a few city owned fields but unlike s****r there is not a plethera of baseball fields available in the spring. And what HS coach is going to let you use his field when you just recruitied little Johnny to play select instead of HS? Seams like a lot of people that post on here have some sons in bad hs programs.

quote:

When you are in mid-March and none of your sub-varsity pitchers have thrown a bull-pen, taken live batting practices, thrown long toss (outside of their own), taken fly balls, taken grounders or worked on pickoffs, how serious can kids really get about school ball?

Something seriously wrong with your particular program.

IMHO, it would be a travesty to force kids to choose between high school and select.

quote:

Originally posted by Clemson896:

quote:

Originally posted by OA5II:
Most of my son's friends have come to the realization that school is ball has nothing to do with development nor advancing their baseball skills or careers and just to take it as a place to have fun, they can deal with it.

When you are in mid-March and none of your sub-varsity pitchers have thrown a bull-pen, taken live batting practices, thrown long toss (outside of their own), taken fly balls, taken grounders or worked on pickoffs, how serious can kids really get about school ball?

My question is, how many times do they do that with a summer select team? Between league play and weekend tournaments, never really heard of select teams practicing more than once or twice (if they're lucky) a week. If a kid wants to improve, he has to take it upon himself to do the work on his own. The ones that end up standing out are the ones that don't rely on "team" practice.

I know my son's summer team practices once a week, and they take ground balls and fly balls. Seen HS teams "practice" 5 days a week and only the varsity take part. My son's summer team has a set routine for the pitchers including bull-pens and games, yet seen school teams that can't figure that out. Summer teams have kids long toss and strengthen their arms, yet see HS teams that kids aren't allowed to throw farther than 90-120. It looks more and more like the school coaches are expecting the summer teams to actually coach and develop the players. Seeing this as the rule, not the exception. Again, like the kids were saying this weekend, how serious can they take school ball?

lsball-- very hard to believe. Might add this is a "drastic exception" and not the "rule" to HS programs.

Try not to tear all HS coaches and their programs down based on your experience.

There are tons of great HS coaches and programs in the Dallas/Ft. Worth area.