so what do you think of my pitches?

quote:

Originally posted by Texan:


Not sure exactly where you were going with the horizontal comment.

It was nothing more than just to let anyone know that trying to throw it slower wasn't (necessarily) the best way to go about it.

Deemax, I guess we just don't see pitching the same way. I'm glad that you now agree that youth pitchers shouldn't throw a splitter, which answers the original topic, "what do you think of my pitches" from a high school freshman. With regard to college and pro pitchers, if they can't get people out with fastballs, changeups and a breaking ball, it isn't going to matter if they add a splitter or not, becuase they ain't gonna be pitching anyway!

Your comments ignore the fact that if you can't consistently get hitters out with those primary pitches, it isn't going to matter what other gimmicks you come up with, unless possibly you are a knuckleballer. If you're a knuckleballer, you most likely aren't throwing all these others pitches anyway. Guys who throw the knuckleball usually throw only a fastball and maybe a curve in addition to a heavy diet of knucklers.

I also have issues with you advocating in any manner, the screwball. Have you noticed that almost nobody at all, at any level, throws a screwball? There's a reason. Arms can't take that unnatural motion, even more so than what splitters do to arms.

I'm going to expand on something I said in my previous post, in the hope that younger players with open minds will consider this. I talk with a broad cross-section of college coaches and pro scouts on a fairly regular basis, about high school and juco players from this region. NONE of them discuss pitchers at any level by starting off asking about their secondary pitches such as curveball, changeup, slider or splitter. They talk about the ability to throw strikes and change speeds, mound presence, overall command of their pitches, in other words - pitch-ability and...what kind of fastball they possess. That is what people look for and those are the people who will determine how long any kid is going to play. If you want to pitch for a long time, you'd do well to develop your ability in those areas. If you can throw a good fastball and changeup for strikes in any count, and have even a decent curveball, chances are good that you can pitch beyond highschool.

06catcherdad,
Your personnal vendetta against the split is understandable. You are wrong about alot of things concerning this pitch though. Your son hurt his arm, and I wouldnt wish that on any parent. He had a very good work ethic, very much a max effort kid who was also very kind and considerate to my son as well. I wrote about using these pitches as a last resort, and I'll reiterate myself by saying if you dont want to hurt your arm dont pitch. None of it is safe.

You said your son felt a twinge in his elbow throwing down to second in a winter tournament....was he also pitching in this same tournament?

Nothing is safe. But there is no need to take unnecessary risk. Texan Son stuck to fb's & c/u until around 13-14. That was all he needed to be successful against some of the toughest competition in the country at that age level.

Then added the curve, uses it sparingly.

His arm has been trouble free and his velocity is very good for his age/size.

So pitching - with proper mechanics, pitch count limits, rest periods, etc. - doesn't have to be hazardous.

Deemax, I think it might be more accurate to describe my opinions as the result of much experience and study of the injury and pitch, rather than a vendetta. Believe me, if there weren't so many pitchers who've suffered arm injuries attributed in part to the splitter, I wouldn't be so opposed to young pitchers throwing it.

I'm a bit perplexed at you knowing who my kid is, and what type of player he is. You live in Texas, and we live in Northern California. I can't imagine that you actually know my son, is it more a case of you thinking he's someone else? I'm not even slightly aware of who you or your son are, what teams he's played on or anything else about you, other than you live in Texas and we view the splitfingered fastball differently. Other than possibly at the JOs in Arizona, I can't imagine where we may have crossed paths, as we almost never get to play Texas teams. In fact, I don't think we've ever played any team from Texas outside of the Jr. Olympics. Enlighten me, please. PM me or on this thread would be fine.

quote:

Originally posted by 06catcherdad:
I also have issues with you advocating in any manner, the screwball. Have you noticed that almost nobody at all, at any level, throws a screwball? There's a reason. Arms can't take that unnatural motion, even more so than what splitters do to arms.

This is a myth.

While some guys have had arm problems and have thrown the screwball, not everyone who threw the screwball has had arm problems. For example, Mike Marshall threw the screwball and pitched for 17 years (and probably could have pitched longer if not for his personality).

That means that the screwball is likely not the cause of the problem.

As with the splitter, you're making assumptions about the causation of injuries that aren't based on solid evidence.

If one guy pitching for a long time and not having an injury with a certain pitch means that the pitch is not a risk factor for arm injuries, well count me as wrong but now enlightened!!!! Give me a break. Just because one guy had a long career and threw a screwball, doesn't mean the pitch isn't hard on arms. IT IS. If people didn't tend to have arm pain when throwing a screwball, they'd do it more often...remember, anything to get hitters out for lots of pitchers.

Also, you may not believe there is any body of evidence that a lot of guys who throw the split causes problems, but there is. It is called a large number of current and former pitchers who throw/threw the split and now have a 6 inch scar on the inside surface of their elbow. Get real, lots of people who've had the surgery will tell you that they began having problems after throwing a splitter, but not until then. You need to crawl out of your theorectical hole, and actually talk to some pitchers, coaches and orthopaedic surgeons. Maybe you should do a research study on this. In fact, maybe some sports med, kinesiology, or physical therapy student could write his masters thesis on the correlation between certain types of pitches thrown and arm injuries to the shoulder and elbow. There is a huge body of players out there to interview who can provide the data.

quote:

Originally posted by 06catcherdad:
Get real, lots of people who've had the surgery will tell you that they began having problems after throwing a splitter, but not until then.

What about Bruce Sutter, who didn't start throwing the splitter until after his arm was injured? Clemens and Schilling also throw the splitter and have been healthier than average.

The evidence about the problems with both the Screwball and the Splitter is anecdotal, highly confounded, and far from compelling.

All this conversation caused me to dig out the reference books and dig around for info on the splitter and the screwball... interesting info is out there - particularly in the Neyer/James guide to pitchers...

Both of these pitches have been around a long time - and a result there are many pitchers who have thrown it in the majors...

With the screwball you have oldtimers like Carl Hubbell and Christy Mathewson or more modern guys like Fernando and Tug McGraw

On the subject of throwing the screwball (quoting from Neyer/James pg 54-55)

"Carl Hubbell threw so many screwballs he was left permanently disfigured... his left arm... loks as if he put it on in the dark."

Lew Fonseca "the screwball is another trick pitch that can ruin a beginner's arm"

Jack Coombs writes... "The screwball ... should never be taught to a young man... as it calls for muscle movements in the wrist, forearm and elbow that are contrary to the laws of nature"

Pat Jordan... "only a demented person would specialize in such a perverse pitch that is so hard to master and so damaging to a pitcher's arm"

BTW - the top pitchers who threw the screwball - names like Hubbell (34), Mathewson (32), Fernando (29?) - are all highlighted as pitchers who had short careers - and whose last big year was when they were the age shown in brackets.

With the splitter they don't have nearly as much to say about the positive or negative effect on arms.

A little history:
With the splitter there are guys like Joe Page, Dizzy Trout who both threw a hard forkball in the 30s and 40s. The pitch then went into a lull until Bruce Sutter brought it back with the help of a pitching coach name fred martin. Sutter popularized the name splitter instead of forkball. Sutter claims he taught Roger Craig how to throw it - and Roger has been touted as the guy who was the best at teaching the split finger fastball - teaching many pitchers in the late 70s and 80s.

There are 5 pitchers who made the Neyer James book as the best 10 splitters/forkballs of all time:
Sutter, Mike Scott, Jack McDowell, Jack Morris, and Kazuhiro Sasaki.

Looking at each of these guys, here is their age of their last "good" season.

Sutter - 31
Scott - 34
Morris - 36
McDowell - 29
Sasaki - 34

So all of this is interesting - but probably won't prove anything to anyone... but for me - in answering the original question - should a freshman in high school be throwing a splitter or a screwball - I think not.

There is no reason for him to take the risk of permanent injury. A fastball and a change up are enough to get people out in high school at the freshman level - and I have seen very few freshman who have truly mastered even those two pitches.

Add in a curveball next - and when you master that - you are ready for college or the pros. Then let the really qualified coaches you get at that level teach you the splitter, slider or other pitch.

08

Great posts, 08Dad.

quote:

Originally posted by 08Dad:
On the subject of throwing the screwball (quoting from Neyer/James pg 54-55)

"Carl Hubbell threw so many screwballs he was left permanently disfigured... his left arm... loks as if he put it on in the dark."

Lew Fonseca "the screwball is another trick pitch that can ruin a beginner's arm"

Jack Coombs writes... "The screwball ... should never be taught to a young man... as it calls for muscle movements in the wrist, forearm and elbow that are contrary to the laws of nature"

Pat Jordan... "only a demented person would specialize in such a perverse pitch that is so hard to master and so damaging to a pitcher's arm"

All of these quotes about the ill effects of the screwball are meaningless because these guys are not physicians or kinesiologists. They are just repeating what they have been told.

That don't make it so.

painguy, are you just arguing for the sake of argument, or do you really not get it?

If a guy who's getting paid to play, or is very close to that level, wants to throw these pitches, that is one thing; but for younger kids it is entirely inappropriate and dangerous. This thread has veered off the orignal topic, largely due to a few people wanting to pass along very bad advice to youner players. Quit arguing and stick to answering the young man's questions, and keep your answers relevant to his age level.

You owe it to younger players to abandon (at least publicly) your irresponsible stance and quit trying to make it sound like kids should throw these pitches since, to paraphrase you "there isn't proof they hurt arms". Your comments are irresponsible, incorrect and dangerous.

Has anyone here ever seen the ultra slow motion films of how the arm throws a baseball? The arm (righthander) rotates counter clockwise as the pitcher is releasing the baseball. That is the same movement that is required to throw a screwball. It is also (to a lesser extent) the same movement that is required to throw a sinker, which is just a screwball that does not break quite as much.
When I was with the Giants and Roger Craig was the Mgr. all the kids in the minor leagues were throwing splits. When Roger was let go the front office decided that NONE of the minor leaguers should throw splits, and outlawed the pitch. We had more injuries after the new rule than before the new rule. The big leaguers continued to throw splits and the only guys who got hurt were Trevor Wilson and Billy Swift, and neither threw a split.
I feel that we spend too much time worrying about stuff that we really don't know anything about. Pitchers hurt their arms all the time, and from what I see, the main problem is in the lousy newer deliveries being taught in the past 20 years, not in the type of pitches they throw.

quote:

I feel that we spend too much time worrying about stuff that we really don't know anything about. Pitchers hurt their arms all the time,

Isn't that the truth ?

quote:

Originally posted by bbscout:
..the main problem is in the lousy newer deliveries being taught in the past 20 years, not in the type of pitches they throw.

And the differences you see in the "newer" deliveries?

quote:

Originally posted by 06catcherdad:
painguy, are you just arguing for the sake of argument, or do you really not get it?

I do get it and I'm not just trying to be argumentative.

The problem is that, as bbscout points out, many things that people believe do not hold up when you look at high speed film. As a result, people end up worrying too much about phony problems (like the screwball and the splitter) and ignore the real problems (like overuse and poor mechanics).

The no wind up where the hands are tucked into the chest and then have to go from a dead start. Even most of the kids who go over their head, then take their hands down to their chest and stop.....and then have to start again. Terrible.

The old way way was the hands going over the head and the arm would have a free running start. It would go over the head and from that moment on, it was moving without any stops in between. Much less strain on the arm and it lets the arm build up speed with less effort.

Watching some old clips, it appears to me that often they did come to a stop, just in a different place.

Feller stopped momentarily, for instance, but out near the knee rather than close in to the chest.

I really can't see that starting at the chest (e.g., not going over the head) would do anything at all to cause injury. It is a simpler motion. And requires one less change of direction.

Can't follow your thought so far... Can you explain further?

Most guys say going over the head is wasted motion. My son prefers breaking low to keep his weight over the rubber. So he dosen't lean too far back.

quote:

Originally posted by BobbleheadDoll:
Most guys say going over the head is wasted motion. My son prefers breaking low to keep his weight over the rubber. So he dosen't lean too far back.

IMO, most guys are wrong. Here is the delivery that I am talking about and the arm getting a free running start.

free running start with arm

Looks like a momentary pause (albeit very brief) out by the knee to me.

Even if there was no pause, I still don't have enough information to follow your logic.

There is no stop of the arm in that delivery. He also has never had any arm problems.

Looks like a momentary pause to me is all I can say. But that is neither here nor there.

I guess you aren't going to explain your reasoning. I would have been interested in hearing it...

quote:

Originally posted by bbscout:
The no wind up where the hands are tucked into the chest and then have to go from a dead start. Even most of the kids who go over their head, then take their hands down to their chest and stop.....and then have to start again. Terrible.

The old way way was the hands going over the head and the arm would have a free running start. It would go over the head and from that moment on, it was moving without any stops in between. Much less strain on the arm and it lets the arm build up speed with less effort.

quote:

Originally posted by Texan:
Looks like a momentary pause to me is all I can say. But that is neither here nor there.

I guess you aren't going to explain your reasoning. I would have been interested in hearing it...

If you have Quicktime, you would be able to see that there is no pause in his arm from the time it goes over his head until it is done throwing the ball. Most of the kids today suck their hands into their chest, create tension in the arm and then yank the arm out and back to throw the ball. Do that 50 times in the pen and then 100 times in the game and see how much fatigue has been created. Then emulate the clip I posted and see how much fatigue you have. You should then have an idea of the point I am making.

quote:

Also, you may not believe there is any body of evidence that a lot of guys who throw the split causes problems, but there is. It is called a large number of current and former pitchers who throw/threw the split and now have a 6 inch scar on the inside surface of their elbow. Get real, lots of people who've had the surgery will tell you that they began having problems after throwing a splitter, but not until then

Can you name some of these pitchers, (since "theres a large number") that got TJ surgery as a direct result of the split. For every one that you can name, I will name two that throw the split and are still pitching at a high level.

I have QT, but it still looks like a momentary pause to me. But no use beating that dead horse.

When you talk about "yank the arm out and back", are you talking about those kids who take the arm more or less sideways out of the glove? As opposed to those who just let the hand drop down out of the glove and then circle up to the high L.

I just checked in and see that we finally have someone I consider a true authority on pitching weighing in - BBscout. I find your comments of great interest, especially the historical accounts during Craig's tenure in SF. They run counter to most everything I've read and been told, but you were there, so you know what you saw happen.

I'd like to ask you to expound on this subject please, as it goes to the core of what this thread started as. Do you think that young pitchers should focus on learning to throw fastballs, changeups and maybe a curveball; learn to throw those pitches for strikes and change speeds and stick to the basics? OR, do you think that young pitchers (remember, the person who started this thread is a HS freshman) should be throwing pitches like a splitter or slider? Do you think that many kids nowadays focus enough on learning to actually pitch, vs. just being throwers, or do you think that many of them spend time trying different things without mastering the basic things that will help them go on beyond high school? We've watched many of the same high school and jr. college pitchers over the last few years, and I'd love to hear your thoughts about them in general without naming names.

I have followed this thread since the beginning and there are some good points made. The question is really should a young player woory more about other pitches than a Fastball,change, CB. Anyone could hurt themselves throwing any pitch without the proper instruction. However when deciding on risk taking you can be calcultated with the risk you take. Why not be calculated as a young player (Freshman) I agree 100% with 06catcherdad.
Learn how to pitch using FB,AND CHANGE IMVHO

I think that when you are teaching your son how to pitch, that a good delivery is what should be worked on first. My own opinion is that 12-14 year olds suffer more injuries due to a poor delivery than due to what pitches they throw.

If the parent and player wish for the player to be a starting pitcher on their HS varsity team, and then possibly go to college and pitch, they need to learn how to throw at least 3 pitches well. A fastball, breaking ball and change are are a good place to start. As far as hurting the arm, if you want to be a good pitcher, you will be taking the chance of that happening. Learning to throw a good breaking ball is important at a younger age, because the time will come when you get to HS that you will need one and throwing a good breaking ball is not something that can be taught overnight.
As far as what breaking pitch to throw, I have always felt that a kid who has a compact circle take away will have a better chance to throw a good curve. A kid who has a long take away has a better chance to succeed with a slider or split.

As far as what pitch hurts the arm,my opinion is that all pitches can hurt the arm, especially if the kid has a poor delivery. The better the delivery, the better chance of having less arm problems.

Today, I see very poor deliveries and I also see more kids being cut on. I have posted this clip for a long time and very seldom do I get any response from it. In my opinion it is the best delivery I have ever seen and it has held up very well over the years. Also, the delivery has not changed, he is the same now as when he was a kid.

great delivery

bbscout, I don't see anything in that delivery that I would expect to lead to injury. He is certainly smooth. But I wouldn't hold this up as a model to emulate.

This pitcher drifts forward in his leg kick. The result is that his lower body weight is out front before his upper body is ready. In the end, he's throwing mostly arm, very little lower body enhancement. He could improve velocity by keeping his kick side back a bit longer, so that his upper body could shoot the ball out ahead of it with the weight coming behind from the hip turn.

quote:

Originally posted by Midlo Dad:
But I wouldn't hold this up as a model to emulate.

This pitcher drifts forward in his leg kick. The result is that his lower body weight is out front before his upper body is ready. In the end, he's throwing mostly arm, very little lower body enhancement. He could improve velocity by keeping his kick side back a bit longer, so that his upper body could shoot the ball out ahead of it with the weight coming behind from the hip turn.

Please tell me you're kidding!!!

You obviously don't know this, but this is a video of Greg Maddux >>>genuflect<<< from high school.

This is the guy to whom I compare everyone I am teaching or evaluating.

In terms of the forward drift, this is what most high level pitchers do (e.g. Clemens, Schilling, etc). They get their bodies moving forward toward the plate at or just after the apex of their leg lift. They do not come to what is often called the balance point.

For other examples of this see...


http://photos.imageevent.com/siggy/throwing/pro/clemens_roger_side2.gif

http://photos.imageevent.com/siggy/throwing/pro/NolanRyan_Rangers_3B_001.gif

http://photos.imageevent.com/siggy/throwing/pro//SandyKoufaxLAD_01.gif

Also, go to timestamp 3:11 of the Maddux clip and you will see that his hips are rotating roughly 60 degrees ahead of his shoulders. That will enable his hips to powerfully pull his shoulders around (and is the definition of throwing with one's entire body and not just the arm).

Casey Fossum is an extreme example of this, which is why a stringbean like him can still throw hard. Notice the hips facing HP while his shoulders are facing 1B...

quote:

This pitcher drifts forward in his leg kick. The result is that his lower body weight is out front before his upper body is ready. In the end, he's throwing mostly arm, very little lower body enhancement. He could improve velocity by keeping his kick side back a bit longer, so that his upper body could shoot the ball out ahead of it with the weight coming behind from the hip turn.

I order to maximize power you have to lead with your lower body (riding a closed front hip as long as possible). I have a tough time thinking he (Gregory) is throwing all arm when he dosnt release the ball until he's 3ft(estimate) removed from the rubber. If the body is generating enough power to carry you that far off the rubber before you release the ball, he must be doing something right. A closed lead hip needs to lead the way, not the other way around. I have some great photos that depict this if you want to check them out...pm me.

I just hope Mr. Maddux has donated some money to his old high school to fix that mound. At least it's just the bullpen.

It's funny, I almost compared the clip to Maddux, but no, I didn't realize it was him as a kid.

If anything, though, that proves my point. Maddux is certainly not a guy who's getting all the velocity he can out of himself. And the forward lower body drift is a big part of why.

This shouldn't shock you. Maddux doesn't set out to be a power guy. In fact, he's the poster boy for proving that you can win big without big MPH! What you would take from Maddux would be, maybe focus less on what creates velocity, more on what allows pinpoint control and movement.

On the other hand, the smooth and jerk-free delivery surely has proved out over the years. I don't recall Maddux ever having any real arm injury problems.

BTW, the Clemens, Ryan and Koufax deliveries you linked to are all markedly different from Maddux's, and they are all doing exactly what I'm talking about. Maybe I'm just not able to use the words that convey it in the way you're used to. But all of them are focused on whipping the ball out front and bringing a lot of weight/power behind it. By comparison, Maddux's release very much trails the body action. He does not get the leverage behind his fastball that the other three do.

One thing you get when the arm trails is a lot more tailing and sinking action. That kind of movement is more what Maddux is noted for. So I would say, the differences between him as a finesse pitcher, and Ryan/Clemens/Koufax as power pitchers, are pretty well demonstrated in these clips.

I don't see how you could teach someone to pitch BOTH like Maddux AND like the Ryan/Clemens/Koufax clips. They are two very different things, and you can't do both at once.

Also, again maybe I'm not choosing my words well enough, but there is a difference between unlocking the hips and getting full hip turn -- or maybe, "full torso turn" would be a better phrase? You are right that all of them unlock their hips ahead of release, but the true power turn of the torso that the open hips enables comes after that, as the ball reaches release point, preferably out front. That's how you reach your maximum "muzzle velocity", so to speak.

It's kind of like when a batter gets his stride foot out and down BEFORE he shifts his weight against it. He unlocks his hips first, then executes the power turn to create whip.

quote:

Originally posted by Midlo Dad:
By comparison, Maddux's release very much trails the body action. He does not get the leverage behind his fastball that the other three do...One thing you get when the arm trails is a lot more tailing and sinking action.

First, I believe that Maddux is throwing in the low 90s in the clip.

Second, you see large degrees of external rotation of the PAS upper arm in the motions of EVERY major league pitcher.

Are you looking at the clips frame by frame? You can't see this at regular speed.

I don't know what you mean by "large degrees of external rotation". That's not a term I use, and besides, it's not what I was talking about.

Maddux hit 90-91 as a young MLB pitcher. I very much doubt he was throwing 90 in the clip. That motion won't produce 90.

quote:

Originally posted by thepainguy:
In terms of the forward drift, this is what most high level pitchers do (e.g. Clemens, Schilling, etc). They get their bodies moving forward toward the plate at or just after the apex of their leg lift. They do not come to what is often called the balance point.

Those clips of Koufax & Ryan do not show their bodies moving forward at the apex of the leg lift. At the apex of the leg lift, their weight is still back. Can't tell much from the Clemens clip, it starts too late in the delivery. The upper body begins to go forward pretty much when the stride foot goes forward.

Ryan, in particular, comes to the balance point. Koufax, in essence, does as well. What can fool you with Koufax is his initial stance, e.g., the initial position of the posting leg. He starts farther out, in other words. Something he picked up along the way, too long a story to relate here. He did carry out a little quicker than Ryan.

The Maddux clip does seem to show the torso moving forward a little sooner than Ryan or Koufax.

dm has a good point in his post on not opening the hips too soon.

quote:

Originally posted by Midlo Dad:
I don't know what you mean by "large degrees of external rotation". That's not a term I use, and besides, it's not what I was talking about.

Maddux hit 90-91 as a young MLB pitcher. I very much doubt he was throwing 90 in the clip. That motion won't produce 90.

He pitched between 90-95 all the time in high school, and has had the same delivery his whole career. He has great hip rotation, and as deemax pointed out, his back foot is about 3 feet off the rubber at release and that is due to hip rotation. If you don't want to have your young ones emulate him, you will be right in line with about 99.99999% of all the other dads out there. You have the great delivery sitting right in front of you and you choose not to use it.........when you get the kids lined up for surgery, please don't post here and expect sympathy.

quote:

Originally posted by Emanski's Heroes:
I just hope Mr. Maddux has donated some money to his old high school to fix that mound. At least it's just the bullpen.

That bullpen never bothered him. He threw in it for about 8-9 years.