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This is something I rarely see discussed, but see very few non-white players at the DI level.

Certainly compared to football and basketball there are far fewer black athletes, and I know from experience that baseball is a distant third in the the African American community to those other sports, but economics also has to play a HUGE part.

Since the other two DI sports give full athletic scholarships, economics doesn't come into play, but in baseball it certainly does, as even the very best of players is lucky to get one-third of a scholarship, and that leaves a lot of out-of-pocket expense that many families simply cannot afford.

I've seen JUCO teams with a high number of Latin players who are outstanding, but those players never seem to make it to the DI level. I'd assume the better ones go into the draft, while the ones that don't cannot get into the DI levels for a myriad of reasons (economics, not from this country, academics, etc.)

If you're not from this country you can't even get Pell Grants, so very tough on the foreign players. I wonder how JUCO's even get them in for very little money?

So, of course, this opens up more opportunities for wealthier white kids...and when we went to the College World Series in Omaha this is 98% of what we saw.

Open for discussion, or debate, but this cerrtainly makes for a lesser product on the field. I saw several Dominican players at the JUCO DII World Series who were better than many DI players I've seen.
Last edited {1}
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quote:
Originally posted by OKbaseballDad:
This is something I rarely see discussed, but see very few non-white players at the DI level.

Certainly compared to football and baseketball there are far fewer black athletes, and I know from experience that baseball is a distant third in the the African American community to those other sports, but economics also has to play a HUGE part.

Since the other two DI sports give full athletic scholarships, economics doesn't come into play, but in baseball it certainly does, as even the very best of players is lucky to get one-third of a scholarship, and that leaves a lot of out-of-pocket expense that many families simply cannot afford.

I've seen JUCO teams with a high number of Latin players who are outstanding, but those players never seem to make it to the DI level. I'd assume the better ones go into the draft, while the ones that don't cannot get into the DI levels for a myriad of reasons (economics, not from this country, academics, etc.)

So, of course, this opens up more opportunities for wealthier white kids...and when we went to the College World Series in Omaha this is 98% of what we saw.

Open for discussion, or debate, but this cerrtainly makes for a lesser product on the field.


Very interesting discussion topic.

An observation - 2013 attends a public high school that is 38% white and 70% free-or-reduced lunch (full disclosure: he is white and we don't qualify for aid). His baseball team is mostly white, with the few African-American players being primary football players and using baseball as a secondary sport to remain fit, etc. They are all very athletic and strong, but generally do not have any of the summer ball experience at any level beyond 6th grade.

We had five minority players on our club team of 21 this past summer, and the parents remarked that we were, by far, the most diverse team we encountered.

This phenomemon begins long before college, IMO.
* The better showcase teams will find a way to cover the fees for a talented player regardless of color.

* While an illusion for most the NFL and NBA offer quicker access to the big money than MLB and it's minor league system.

* Most foreign Latin players don't have the academic background to attend college.

* Barry Larkin once discussed his son not playing baseball. His son said baseball isn't cool with most black kids.

* From watching my son grow up playing basketball in a basketball hotbed like Philadelphia, I've seen basketball is a religion in the black community even with the girls. They play year round. Chester (PA) high school, a perennial USA Top 25 team has an incredible following. They draw better than some college mid majors. In other regions of the country (Miami) football is viewed the same way.
Last edited by RJM
Beware: Baseball has become a country club sport.

Bat = $400
Glove = $200
Cleats = $100
Etc, Etc, Etc...

Elite travel teams can scholarship all they want, but the number of minorities with elite skills are not growing.

It may be economic. It may be social. It may be cultural. What ever the cause may be it would be nice to see some diversity on the baseball field.

Rich
PlayInSchool.com
quote:
Originally posted by PIS:
Beware: Baseball has become a country club sport.

Bat = $400
Glove = $200
Cleats = $100
Etc, Etc, Etc...

Elite travel teams can scholarship all they want, but the number of minorities with elite skills are not growing.

It may be economic. It may be social. It may be cultural. What ever the cause may be it would be nice to see some diversity on the baseball field.

Rich
PlayInSchool.com



The same can be said for Under 17 ACT scores. The PHS systems failed many a kid, not just athletes. This is the main problem getting to play college ball, grades.
Last edited by showme
quote:
Originally posted by PIS:
Beware: Baseball has become a country club sport.

Bat = $400
Glove = $200
Cleats = $100
Etc, Etc, Etc...

Elite travel teams can scholarship all they want, but the number of minorities with elite skills are not growing.

It may be economic. It may be social. It may be cultural. What ever the cause may be it would be nice to see some diversity on the baseball field.

Rich
PlayInSchool.com

Interesting topic.

There is a country club aspect to baseball but it is not necessary to belong to a country club to participate imho. I think some of the allure of football/basketball in the minority community and the society at large may be the adulation and the notoriety received versus affordability.

It seems to me that those minority players who truly love baseball find a way to participate. I am not convinced at all that the issue is economics. The irony of all this is that at one time, Jackie Robinson basically sacrificed himself to play baseball. Now, many kids in the minority community and otherwise could care less about the sport. No fault of their's but in our media-driven society, football and basketball is all that seems to matter.
Baseball is a suburban game these days. The few minority kids my son played with in summer ball where from middle class, mostly white, suburban towns. Other teams that were coached by minorities had a few more minority players and they were mostly from the suburbs.

There are not many decent fields in the neighborhoods of Philadelphia. Obviously not conducive for fostering the game.

There are very few black players at all levels of college baseball. Maybe if there were 40 college baseball games on every Saturday like football things would be different.
First of all, our family is African-American ("AA") and I agree with some sentiments above, and not with others. We live in the DFW area and there are very few AA kids playing high-level ball. Usually 1 or less per team. Our suburban community is a very diverse middle class area, and I can go to the local baseball game and see mostly caucasian kids playing there, and I can walk a few hundred yards to the adjacent basketball arena or football field and see almost all AA kids playing.

Money is just an excuse, as the parents of select football and basketball players spend just as much money as we do for those sports. Yes money can be a factor for poor persons, but that is a factor in all sports. (In addition, you do not have to buy a new glove and bat every year to play baseball).

The reasons for the disparity are mostly cultural, and until we embrace that and change the attitude of AA parents and kids it will continue to be a problem. There are so many kids out there that could be great baseball players if they were properly trained, but their energies are directed elsewhere.

Not sure how to fix it, other than pushing as hard as we can in our communities to get all kids (including AA kids) out to the ball field at a young age. I can say I have seen a slight up tick in my community at the lower age levels.

Keep the faith.
Last edited by Aleebaba
The coaches and officials at the rec league/pee wee level are very well aware of the fact that football and basketball offer full scholarships to 4-year universities, while baseball does not (except on rare occasions). A long as that is the case, these influential adults will naturally carry a bias toward the more lucrative college sports.

Football and basketball are "meal tickets." Baseball is not.
quote:
Originally posted by Pop Up Hitter dad:
Well there are D1 programs that will pay 100% academic/athletic for a bullpen catcher. It helps to have good grades though.


Football and basketball scholarships are 100% ATHLETIC scholarships; something that's very rarely experienced on baseball rosters.

Yes, if a player can meet the academic qualifications applicable to the general student body, he can qualify for additional scholarship/aid from the academic side. Ironically, this tends to not be available at the better academic schools because they either don't offer academic merit money or the ones who qualify generally are above the levels demonstrated by baseball players.

My point stands: football and basketball are the only two sports that routinely offer full ATHLETIC scholarships. The coaches and officials of youth rec leagues aren't presuming that the kids they're routinely advising at a young age are going to excel sufficiently in the classroom that their partial athletic scholarship is going to be supplemented with additional academically-based aid.

Thanks very much for threatening to obfuscate the point with your bullpen catcher anecdote.
Last edited by Prepster
The observation is one thing. To try to define its cause is another. Even to describe it as a problem is assuming things. Is there a cultural aspect? Maybe. An economic one, I'm sure of it. Is it a problem that needs fixing? I'm not convinced.

It's unfortunate that we always associate economics with race/minority lack of opportunity. If we accept that the lack of minorities including specifically african americans in college baseball is a problem then why don't we see lack of diversity in basketball and football programs as also a problem?

Until we accept all as individuals we will keep analyzing the results based on the various races and ethnicity groups. There is no way to chose to benefit one person without taking from another. You don't create opportunity, you make it available for one and not another.

Is it economic freedom that will put more diversity into college baseball? Is it really a problem or should we concentrate on character building in our baseball programs. Is the college scholarship a fair measurement of opportunity? I do not think so.

Certainly, this is a choice. We can identify socio-economic groups that are not represented in various areas of our society and we can create and adopt programs to even out the participation. But we are just exchanging a natural circumstance for an intervening circumstance that we feel is more perfect in our eyes.

I don't believe that is what recreation and sport is about. I believe that it's essence goes beyond gifting certain opportunities to who we feel are deserving groups. The highest calling of sports is not the difference between winning and losing the economic game. It is in the challenge of developing character whether on a College World Series baseball field or a recreation yard in Harlem, NY.

Baseball America: 2007 Youth Coach of the Year
quote:
Originally posted by wogdoggy:
I think its about money and being cool..if you live in the inner city all u need is a ball and a public hoop..baseball requires equipment for EVERYONE playing and also more players.its easy to get in a game of hoops but not so easy to get a ball game going


Even in suburbia you do not see pick up baseball games anymore. It is all structured into leagues whether it be Rec or Travel etc.
Nice post Dino.

If the baseball community or any particular level of it is trying to keep out any group, that should be addressed. I do not think that is the case in general.

Others have made good points about the availability of basketball courts for instance as compared to a baseball field. Basketball and especially Football reward pure athleticism, the case for Football was made in the Jason Pierre-Paul article in the NYT magazine a few weeks ago. Playing baseball at a high level does require athleticism, but hard work can overcome some athletic deficiencies.

If we want to see more AA kids in baseball, we can do our part. My wife and I want to see more kids from single parent homes (red, yellow, black or white) succeed in Life so we actively support a private school that is trying to do that. After being involved for a mere eight years, I see that progress will come over long periods of time, generations. Helping means doing things that parents are supposed to do, but cannot or do not for whatever reason. It is easy to get frustrated, but then you gotta keep the objective in mind, not what you think someone else should be doing.
quote:
Originally posted by PA Dino:
The observation is one thing. To try to define its cause is another. Even to describe it as a problem is assuming things. Is there a cultural aspect? Maybe. An economic one, I'm sure of it. Is it a problem that needs fixing? I'm not convinced.

It's unfortunate that we always associate economics with race/minority lack of opportunity. If we accept that the lack of minorities including specifically african americans in college baseball is a problem then why don't we see lack of diversity in basketball and football programs as also a problem?



I always find this topic really interesting. Let me flip this another way.

Anyone who watches ACC footbal much will tell you that traditionally Clemson's defense (only picking them as I have watched them play a lot in the last few years as I like their head coach)is made up of almost exclusively, in this year's case exclusively, made up of African American kids. No one seems to be jumping up and down questioning that not enough white kids are playing football because of this.

I think there are lots of reasons kids gravitate to certain sports. Those reasons are all over the board. They may be cultural, economic, what their friends play, what their parents played, and on and on.

With that said I do think some of it is economic, but where I grew up and currently live there would be plenty of African American kids who would have little to no economic barrier to play baseball and for whatever reason or not they aren't interested. They all choose to play football and basketball almost exclusively.
Last edited by BackstopDad32
quote:
Originally posted by BishopLeftiesDad:
quote:
Originally posted by wogdoggy:
I think its about money and being cool..if you live in the inner city all u need is a ball and a public hoop..baseball requires equipment for EVERYONE playing and also more players.its easy to get in a game of hoops but not so easy to get a ball game going


Even in suburbia you do not see pick up baseball games anymore. It is all structured into leagues whether it be Rec or Travel etc.


nowadays but not when i grew up..pick up games all the time..its cost and reward..all u need is a basketball..great thread everyone!
Last edited by wogdoggy
quote:
Originally posted by Prepster:
The coaches and officials at the rec league/pee wee level are very well aware of the fact that football and basketball offer full scholarships to 4-year universities, while baseball does not (except on rare occasions). A long as that is the case, these influential adults will naturally carry a bias toward the more lucrative college sports.

Football and basketball are "meal tickets." Baseball is not.
I agree this occurs. Unfortunately it's a weak sales pitch. Academics are the meal ticket.
Last edited by RJM
FWIW - Only 12.5% of the population is African American. Given that statistic, I really don't see African Americans hugely under-represented in amateur baseball (maybe I'm missing something). I think that both Aleebaba and PA Dino make excellent points. It appears that baseball has a cultural challenge in the AA community but its not really a huge problem for the game or for our larger society as there are many other under-represented groups in baseball culture. However, it would be nice for all of us to see baseball resonate throughout the country.
quote:
Originally posted by Prepster:
quote:
Originally posted by RJM:
I agree this occurs. Unfortunatley it's a weak sales pitch. Academics are the meal ticket.


Couldn't agree more. Unfortunately, the kids they're first influencing are very young; and many of their parents reinforce the message.
One of my best friends in college was from the ghetto in West Memphis. Not only was he the first in his family to graduate from college, he graduated valedictorian. He called it like being the best skier from Jamaica. No one in his family attended his high school graduation. He had a full ride to college. His family accused him of turning white on them. He went to summer school rather than go home. By the time he used up his baseball eligibility he was one semester from completing his MBA.
Last edited by RJM
interesting take on this I recently ran across...


"One is culture. After all, there are plenty of blacks in baseball, just not as many American blacks as there used to be. There are more blacks—75 of the 95 foreign-born blacks in baseball—from the Dominican Republic than there are American blacks.

Hanley Ramirez, one of the better-known Dominican blacks in the MLB.

What makes the D.R. different? There, baseball is a way of life, more specifically, a way out of poverty. It is a way to make it big on the shores of the world power just 800 miles to the north. Also, baseball is by far the most popular sport in the Dominican Republic.

There are only three Dominicans playing professional basketball in America, and only one in professional football."

http://www.amren.com/features/2012/05/raceball-2012/
quote:
Originally posted by showme:
interesting take on this I recently ran across...


"One is culture. After all, there are plenty of blacks in baseball, just not as many American blacks as there used to be. There are more blacks—75 of the 95 foreign-born blacks in baseball—from the Dominican Republic than there are American blacks.

Hanley Ramirez, one of the better-known Dominican blacks in the MLB.

What makes the D.R. different? There, baseball is a way of life, more specifically, a way out of poverty. It is a way to make it big on the shores of the world power just 800 miles to the north. Also, baseball is by far the most popular sport in the Dominican Republic.

There are only three Dominicans playing professional basketball in America, and only one in professional football."

http://www.amren.com/features/2012/05/raceball-2012/
There may be a lot of Dominicans in baseball. But how many Dominicans bank everything on baseball at age thirteen and fail. I'll bet the ratio of Dominicans who remain dirt poor versus those who earn a living playing baseball is about 99:1.
Last edited by RJM
quote:
Originally posted by RJM:
quote:
Originally posted by showme:
interesting take on this I recently ran across...


"One is culture. After all, there are plenty of blacks in baseball, just not as many American blacks as there used to be. There are more blacks—75 of the 95 foreign-born blacks in baseball—from the Dominican Republic than there are American blacks.

Hanley Ramirez, one of the better-known Dominican blacks in the MLB.

What makes the D.R. different? There, baseball is a way of life, more specifically, a way out of poverty. It is a way to make it big on the shores of the world power just 800 miles to the north. Also, baseball is by far the most popular sport in the Dominican Republic.

There are only three Dominicans playing professional basketball in America, and only one in professional football."

http://www.amren.com/features/2012/05/raceball-2012/
There may be a lot of Dominicans in baseball. But how many Dominicans bank everything on baseball at age thirteen and fail. I'll bet the ratio of Dominicans who remain dirt poor versus those who earn a living playing baseball is about 99:1.


Probably more than 1,000 and less than 10,000 to one, 13 year old's to the MLB for the Dominicans.

But not as bad as 500,000 to one, kids from the Dominicans to reach the NFL. :]
quote:
Originally posted by OKbaseballDad:
African American community


What exactly is an African American?
If you mean black then say it, rather than trying to be PC.
Also if you are going to be consistent, make sure to refer to white players specifically by the country their ancestors came from in your posts.

As to your overall theme in this thread, yes there are underprivileged blacks, but their numbers are small compared with the number of underprivileged whites. Remember there are more white people on food stamps and welfare than there are blacks.
In this case it is important to say African American instead of black, not to be PC, but to underscore that a lot of blacks in MLB are not Americans.

On the selfish side, my son always played basketball, but in the past several years it became painfully apparent that he was not going to be as good as good as many of the players he competed with for scholarships.

Perhaps because African American kids don't see baseball as a cool sport, or they don't have as many opportunities, there is less competition in baseball for those scholarships.
quote:
There may be a lot of Dominicans in baseball. But how many Dominicans bank everything on baseball at age thirteen and fail. I'll bet the ratio of Dominicans who remain dirt poor versus those who earn a living playing baseball is about 99:1.


That is the sad part of it.When they get sent home to extreme poverty,and basically no chance of college or a career.

I tell my son that all the time as he played with many Dominicans this summer.I said you have your degree, you have a life to build and a chance to do well after baseball,they go back to nothing.

He enjoyed his Dominican teammates and they really liked him.His limited Spanish helped some.Smile
Going back to the original post I've seen plenty of players with Hispanic backgrounds in D1 ball. I'm sure socioeconomic factors do result in under representation of many populations including Hispanics though.

The limited number of women in D1 baseball is probably more related to genetics than socioeconomic factors however. Smile
Last edited by CADad
quote:
Originally posted by Vector:

As to your overall theme in this thread, yes there are underprivileged blacks, but their numbers are small compared with the number of underprivileged whites. Remember there are more white people on food stamps and welfare than there are blacks.


This is certainly true, but only due to the fact that white people out number black people by about (give or take) 5 to 1.

The percentage of white people on welfare is much less than the percentage of black people on welfare. According to the 2010 census, there are 42,020,743 black people or 13.6% of the population. The census reported 223.6 million white people or about 72% of the population.

Therefore, even if 100% of black people were on assistance and only 50% of white people were on assitance, the raw number of white people on assitance would be more than twice that of black people.

The quoted comment is misleading. I'm not really sure what your point is, Vector. Please clarify.
Who cares if they're white or black, on welfare or not. Who cares if a team is 100% white or 100% black.

Can they play ball?

There are so many talented black youths that could make a mint forging a baseball rather than basketball career. Really, think about the competition for black youths to make the NBA. But, despite the odds, and despite the greater chance to make it big time playing baseball, they choose basketball.

Who cares? Freedom of choice. God bless 'em. When I see an American I see an American not a white or African American.
Last edited by Bum
quote:
Originally posted by OKbaseballDad:
In this case it is important to say African American instead of black, not to be PC, but to underscore that a lot of blacks in MLB are not Americans.

On the selfish side, my son always played basketball, but in the past several years it became painfully apparent that he was not going to be as good as good as many of the players he competed with for scholarships.

Perhaps because African American kids don't see baseball as a cool sport, or they don't have as many opportunities, there is less competition in baseball for those scholarships.


As to your 1st assertion, why not say American blacks instead of the PC term then? The blacks of today are not all desended from Africa as you point out, but also don't assume that only Hispanic blacks are not African.
Call a Jamacian black "African American" and see how they react. My overall point is that all this politically correct, hyphenated-American garbage needs to end.

quote:
Originally posted by 2013 Dad:

This is certainly true, but only due to the fact that white people out number black people by about (give or take) 5 to 1.

The percentage of white people on welfare is much less than the percentage of black people on welfare. According to the 2010 census, there are 42,020,743 black people or 13.6% of the population. The census reported 223.6 million white people or about 72% of the population.

Therefore, even if 100% of black people were on assistance and only 50% of white people were on assitance, the raw number of white people on assitance would be more than twice that of black people.

The quoted comment is misleading. I'm not really sure what your point is, Vector. Please clarify.


Yes, I am acutely aware of the per capita factor, yet that still does not undermine my pointing out how the so called "under-privileged" are made up of more than just minorities. Remember many organizations use the term helping the "under-privileged" as code for specifically helping blacks and minorities only.
For instance the USTA is a fairly liberal organization embracing the homosexual lifestyle, black empowerment, etc.
They use the membership dues to fund "underprivileged" tennis programs, which is fine.
However as it turns out, their definition is not based on economic need, rather instead, race. When I spoke with one of the top people in the organization as to why under-privileged white kids were not assisted by the program, this person actually was ignorant enough to imply most poor people were black and did not have the means to play tennis. Needless to say I informed them of their lack of knowledge.

As to my overall point, I hope we never see a type of affirmative action invade sports like it has other professions. It is easy to point out how most baseball teams are white or brown, with few American blacks. Yet we do not hear complaints about how most basketball teams are black, with a low % of whites. The same is true on many positions in football as well. If the lack of minorities is considered an issue in need of fixing or explanation, then so too should the same be said for a lack of whites in certain sports.

If economics are the focus and assumed reason, then make sure that poor whites are considered just as much as any minority group. To do otherwise would be hypocritical.

`
Last edited by Vector
quote:
Originally posted by RJM:
Isn't just a shame there aren't more whites in college and pro basketball?


Personally I don't care what the racial makeup of teams are, as it is almost always based on ability/performance.
However if some of the so called open-minded people want to lament about a lack of minorities in certain sports, then they either need to be consistent or keep their views to themselves.

This one way street on the PC highway needs to come to an end. One of the ways of accomplishing it is to call people out on it.

`
Just some thoughts

Baseball should be attractive to any great athlete that lives in poverty. I understand the expense involved in equipment, but this can be overcome. The Dominican Republic is not exactly a wealthy country.

Baseball is the only major sport that will pay the top high school players millions of dollars without attending college.

I get lost in all the PC titles. When I was a young boy I was told to call people of color a negro. And there was a thing called the Negro Leagues.

At some point I was told "negro" was inappropriate and "Black" was the proper polite word. When I was younger I would never call someone black. Now it was a good thing to say.

Then later it became "African American". "People of color" seemed to be acceptable, but "Colored Folks" was frowned on.

Still to this day, I don't get it. I don't want to offend anyone and I don't care what race someone is, but why can't we simplify this? It also confuses me when the N word is used by those who it hurts the most.

African American doesn't always represent a certain color. Some Africans are white. Then do we designate everyone other than the Indians who are the only true native Americans?

I actually know people that I would call racist. Actually not all these people are white. I think there is an explanation... Please don't take this personally, but I'm convinced that the majority of all human beings (of any race) are stupid!

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