Somethings buggin me a little

Hello dad,

My son is also a pitcher, freshman in college. Up until this point, I did not see any reason for any pitcher to throw at any batter, although there were several coaches who condoned this, even at 9 and 10.

Last summer, I saw a college wood bat game. The score was 1-0, a real pitcher's duel. The only run scored on a solo homer. The next time the home run hitter came up to the plate, he was promptly plunked on the hip with a curve ball. Message sent, but was it the right move? It was a close game, and you just gave someone a free base.

High school is somewhat of a gray area. Many kids are still learning the proper way to play the game. Pitchers are learning how to pitch, and not just how to throw. I'm sure enough kids get hit without it being intentional. Why would any coach want to put additional pressure on a player by asking him to hit someone? Talk to your son, and see how he feels about it. Then make sure he knows the "proper" way to hit a batter.

OH BBMOM

I have talked about it with him and said if he is asked to do it... see if he can hit him in the lower body legs or throw something slow like a change up, nothing too hard. I don't know. Just seems a little too early for this at his age.

Well first I think you may want to take a deep breath and settle down. Find out first if this coaching staff does things like this. No sense worrying over something that won't matter.

As to when it's something that needs to be done I think if you're being paid to play then it opens up this door. Pro players have to ability to send a message but amateurs - especially high school and down - don't have that ability. I would hate to know I told my pitcher to hit a kid in the thigh / rearend and he misses and hits him in the head.

If your son is presented with this situation as a high school player then tell him he needs to do what he thinks is right. Even if it means going against the coach your son should not feel pressured to do something like this if he doesn't want to.

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Last summer, I saw a college wood bat game. The score was 1-0, a real pitcher's duel. The only run scored on a solo homer. The next time the home run hitter came up to the plate, he was promptly plunked on the hip with a curve ball. Message sent, but was it the right move? It was a close game, and you just gave someone a free base.

I've never understood why this warrants getting hit by a pitch. Either the pitcher messed up or the hitter did an amazing job of hitting - where is the bush league in that? Now if the hitter crushed a pitch and stood at the plate and flipped off the pitcher or took his sweet time going around the bases then I can see plunking him. But for him hitting a homerun - that's what he's supposed to do.

quote:

The next time the home run hitter came up to the plate, he was promptly plunked on the hip with a curve ball. Message sent

I would say you're probably reading the situation wrong. Plunked on the hip by a fastball is one thing...he may be sending a message, or he may be trying to back the hitter off the plate a little so he can work the outside. But by a curve? It probably just didn't break.

Big hitters generally see offspeed pitches and in HS this is generally a curve. After hitting a home run the next time up I would venture to guess that 90% of the time the batter will see a curve. Pitchers don't hit batters with curves, if they want to "send a message" it is always with a FB up and in, or in the back/bottom. BTW I have only seen this once in my son's HS career.

Agree with BOF, in about 7 years watching Varsity Baseball at my sons HS I have seen and heard of one instance where a pitcher was directed to throw at a batter...I think at the time I was in complete agreement for the call...although I can't remember why!

quote:

Originally posted by #22's dad:
#22 Will be trying out for the High school baseball team this spring. I was wondering how the rest of you felt about this subject. I understand that some of the coaches have signs to "plunk" batters. #22 is a pitcher and its kind of worrying me that he might be asked to intentionally plunk a batter when he will be hitting in the lineup himself. At what age is it o.k to be asking a player to do this. Is it a common occurence at this early age. He is trying out for J.V.

I bet there is a little excitement in the air at your house. What great times are coming.

I have never experienced a JV HS Coach that would advocate his Pitchers throwing at hitters. I'd tell Junior to put that thought out of his mind. The last thing a hitter should ever think about is being plunked! A player that can't get over the fear of being hit by the baseball won't generally make it to the HS level.

Best of Luck to you both..

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"...although I can't remember why!"

Does this jog your memory floridafan...



I think he played in your sons' conference.



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quote:

Originally posted by gotwood4sale:
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"...although I can't remember why!"

Does this jog your memory floridafan...



I think he played in your sons' conference.



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Where do you come up with these things??

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22 dad: welcome and enjoy. Man, don't worry about it. I think it's probably 99% legend and the rest questionable.

Just support your son and enjoy the time together; it's really not worth you worrying about something that is just probably not going to happen.

I coached my son up until he was in 14 U right before he started high school ball. One time in 14 U did I order a pitcher to drill a kid. I hate to say this about a teen age boy, but he was a real A-hole. Biggest one we ever played against. Did bush league stuff, whined if a pitch was called a strike, whined when he grounded out, played shortstop and players would say he was talking all kinds of **** when a runner would get on second. I told the pitcher the next time he was up to drill him either in the butt or thigh. He did, and when he got to first, our rather large first baseman had a chat with him about what just happened. I had no problem with that. It was late in the game and they were from out of town so I have no idea the effect of the pitch.

In high school I think the players start to police things themselves. He played JV the next year and the catcher called for him to hit a guy that was acting like an a-hole. Drilled him in the butt and again the first baseman kinda let him know the story. I remember later in the year my son was hitting and he got hit in the thigh by a kid that was kind of a rival of his for a few years. I chuckled about it and thought nothing of it.

Keep it low, and if it is warranted, no biggie.

I have a feeling this topic could take off and become a long thread here. For now I'll bite, but I'd prefer to not really get into the moral argument of intentionally hitting a batter here. There are obviously many opinions on that.

I am a college pitcher and view intentionally hitting a batter a few ways. Have I done it? Sure, several times. The first time I hit someone intentionally was in high school, when I hit him with a pitch in his first at bat (not on purpose) and he proceeded to walk to first base with the bat in his hand staring at me. The next play, he slid well out of range of the bag and took out our shortstop on a double play ball. So his next time up, I reared back and put it right in between his shoulder blades as hard as I could. He took his base and the game went on.

Looking at intentionally hitting someone from strictly a situational coaching aspect:
1. Hitting someone might not be appropriate for the situation of the game. Let's not forget that an HBP puts a runner on base for the opposition.
2. Intentionally hitting someone is, in concept, difficult. Pitchers are taught from a young age to pitch to the glove, and as they continue to progress in the game, it becomes more difficult to suddenly shy away from this. If you've thrown 10,000 straight pitches attempting to throw the ball over a 17 inch wide plate at the same level as the batter's knees, it is tough to suddenly throw the ball 2 feet inside and 5+ feet high. As a young pitcher who might not have full control of his own mechanics, intentionally hitting someone could alter his rhythm and affect his future performance.



Disclaimer: I feel that intentionally hitting someone, if done, should NEVER be done to intentionally inflict pain on an individual. When I am on the field, I want to beat every opponent I have. But I would never want anyone from another team to be physically injured because of any occurrence, especially not something that I have control over. I have never and will never intentionally throw a baseball at someone's head.

It seems to me amateurs have enough trouble getting the ball in the catcher's mitt properly let alone attempting to precisely "hit" someone in a "spot" where they won't be injured. What young ballplayer can be expected to carry out that order with perfection?

What if you throw at a kid's hip and while he attempts to get out of the way of the pitch, he tears his ACL or some other ligament in his body? Are some messages worth that kind of damage? What if attempting to hit a kid, you miss and hit him in the face? Would that message be worth it?

I submit this is a potential criminal activity. Order a kid to intentionally hit someone, the kid misses and does some real damage, and the person who ordered it could go to jail for criminal assault. It all sounds harmless enough in theory to "send a message" but it perhaps might be the most irresponsible thing an adult can do imho - no matter how much someone might deserve it.

For young pitchers out there reading this thread, you must refuse to follow this instruction imho - even if it means the coach will punish you for it.

Someone could get seriously injured (or worse) where you might not ever be able to forgive yourself if you cause that kind of damage. It would be better to walk away from the game imho than to potentially seriously injure someone by "sending a message."

Accidents and injuries will always be part of the game but that is the domain they should remain - as acceptable risks that are part of the game. I understand the need for pitchers to back a kid off the plate and sometimes the kid might get plunked because of it. That is far different in my mind than intentionally trying to hit someone.

Perhaps I am in the minority on this one and there isn't much difference from "backing a kid off the plate" and "sending a message"

The original posters question didn't seem to question the ethics of hitting a batter...

it seemed to ask if it was ok to be scared to throw at a batter since that might incite the other team to throw at him....

...boil it all away and it's fear. Is it ok to disobey the coach because you're scared?

Maybe I come at this from a little different perspective, but here goes.

I have seen my younger son hit a kid in the mouth with a 90 mph fastball. Four teeth and 50 stitches later his teammate is ok. My older son hit a kid in the chest with a 90 mph fastball and after the ambulance took the batter to the hospital for a 24 hour stay he was ok. I was less than 20 feet away when Mike Coolbaugh was killed by a batted ball that struck him in the back of the neck.

Is the coach going to take the responsibility for the damage that may be caused? If the batter rushes the mound will the coach be the first one there to protect the pitcher?

I don't think scared has anything to do with it. I would phrase it as responsible. I will always tell my son to pitch inside. I will tell him that accidents will happen. I will always have his back if one gets away and catches a batter.

Strike him out the next time up that sends a bigger message than giving him first base.

CPLZ

No, the question was meant more as was it ethical for a high school coach to ask a j.v. player to hit another player intentionally. On my own behalf though.. yes I would be worried the other team would hit #22 in retribution.

I don't believe there are very many coaches that tell their pitchers to intentially hit a batter.

That said, I think there are lots of coaches that will tell pitchers to get him off the plate, buzz him, throw inside, or something similar to that.

In any event, it doesn't accomplish much by hitting the batter with a soft curveball or changeup. If a pitcher does "accidently" hit a batter, it should hurt! Kind of embarrassing if it doesn't.

quote:

At what age is it o.k to be asking a player to do this.

At the professional level only.

#22Dad- You're probably a little too worried IMO. That said, there is definitely a code in baseball that has been followed for many, many years...a sort of, eye for an eye mentality. I don't see it happening much on the JV high school level, then again, I've never seen your son's coach in action. Hopefully the coach stays within the code, doesn't allow headhunting, and teaches your son the right way to play.

If you plunk one of our players (especially our stud)...we're going to plunk your stud. If your baserunner takes out our shortstop illegally, he should expect to see one in between the numbers next time at the plate. I understand you're a little nervous because 22son also hits...that kind of reminds me of Pedro Martinez. I used to hate watching Pedro and other American League pitchers intentionally go after hitters on the opposing team, when they never had to stand in the box themselves, it never seemed fair?

*Disclaimer...I figured that I should add my own bsbl247 disclaimer. First of all, I don't believe youth players should engage in the "Code". I also don't believe a player should get one in between the numbers if he went yard his previous AB, that tells me you're afraid of him. However, if he shows up the pitcher after going yard, that's a different story...there are so many variables. Honestly though, my son is a senior in HS, and I think I've seen this situation once, maybe twice? The retaliation wasn't ordered from the coach, the kids did it on their own.

As a coach through 18U I've never instructed a pitcher to drill a hitter. As a player I was ordered once to do it. The hitter had gone into second high and late intentionally and ended a teammate's season.

In 16U I was an assistant with a couple of guys who believe in drilling hitters. They knew their career won-loss record including all the way back to LL if that tells you all you need to know about them. We used to argue about fifteen and sixteen year old pitchers having the control to "dot" hitters. Only a few kids have the skill.

Mostly you'll find the players understand how and when to take care of unusual situations.

When my son played 9U travel there was a team who would throw at my son. Their attitude was if they couldn't keep him off the bases keep hitting him in the legs so he couldn't run. This same team hit our cleanup hitter in the face after a homer in his previous at bat. He was never the same and quit baseball two years later. The kid was a great high school athlete. He could have been a great high school baseball player.

I've seen it at the freshman level. Sometimes the young kids coaching at the lower levels get a bit over zealous.

The reason for hitting or throwing well inside to a batter who hits a home run in the previous at bat is simply to make him uncomfortable at the plate. Generally I think that can be done without actually trying to hit the batter. I have no problem with backing a hitter off the plate. I don't really believe there's a place for intentionally hitting batters below the college level. JMO.

I think the number of 'intentionally' hit batters get inflated. Several times my son has hit a batter and a parent or fan in the stands will complain that it was 'intentional'. Trust me, it wasn't. And if the count is 0-2, you can be sure it wasn't...

On the flip side, if a pitcher throws a curve inside, Jr is more than willing to stand his ground and get plucked...

We have no sign for hitting a batter...

What it gets down to is it's an intentional assault. You "dot" one of my sons and it gets away and injures him you better have a lot of liability insurance or I get your house.

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quote:

Originally posted by zombywoof:

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At what age is it o.k to be asking a player to do this.

At the professional level only.

I agree with the above. Never once was son asked to do this in HS, a few times in college he took it upon himself to send a message (throug behind the batter, buzz him back) but NEVER to intentionally hit anyone, never.

The "code" is seldom applied most of the time on the milb level, you can send a warning (which includes after a HR). Now if a pitcher decides on his own to plunk, that may be something else.

JH is correct, that's a free pass and inevitably could lose your game. At the MLB level it's a bit different. There usually has been some serious stuff going on to warrant an intentional hit.

Bottom line is that a coach should never direct a HS pitcher to hit another player, I agree with CD.

I wouldn't worry about it though, most likely son won't see it happen, and if it does (asked) he has the right to not comply and you have the right to stand behind him.

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Originally posted by gotwood4sale:
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I was thinking of getting a dog. What's the R value of that roof?

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The R value? You'll have to ask my wife. Even though this is where I spend a lot of my time she had it custom built and owns the title.



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We all come from different backgrounds and I don't know what kind of community the OP lives in so there's no way of knowing how probable it will be that he'll be asked to plunk a batter. My sense is that many here live in more forgiving communities than I grew up in and than I live in now. In my experience it was always considered part of a pitcher's arsenal to pitch inside or even behind batters if necessary and in a rare occasion hit somebody for the good of the team.

I took them in the ribs, the shoulder blades and dove out of the way a few times because of my mouth. In retrospect, I deserved it. If you can't get out of the way someone should teach you not to dig in.

but to the point.....there are very poor junior varsity and high school coaches with terrible judgement including those who would demand your son hit an opponent for all the wrong reasons. My son was signaled to hit a batter who had been a teammate the previous year but had transferred to another high school. He refused and suffered the consequences. He was insulted in front of his teammates. His manhood was challenged as was his loyalty to the team. This was predictable as the high school coach had proven his immaturity with other outbursts and insults. My son was prepared for what happened but his decision was based on the strict set of circumstances presented to him on that day. On other occasions he has been more than willing to plunk a batter. In a perfect world, nobody gets beaned, the game gets played by the rules and the best team wins. We live in an imperfect world and we play the game to win.

As a result, some coaches will have a positive influence on your son, others won't. If your son doesn't make up his own mind about the right thing to do then he's going to have some rough times pitching. The older he gets the more important it will be. For instance, in college you might never get back on the bump if you refuse to follow directions. There are alot of situations we'd like to avoid in life. This is one that could help your son establish his moral and ethical foundation. Stand up for what you believe is right but don't make excuses not to do an unpleasant duty. Gives turn the other cheek a new meaning.

Junior made the JV team summer before Freshman year of HS. He was a soft tossing lefty and did not get any time on the mound the first half of the summer season. His FIRST appearance came in relief on the wrong side of a blowout. Prior to Junior taking the mound, the opposing team continued to steal and take extra bases as our team threw the ball all over the park. The directive from the coach as he gave him the ball (I was told later) was to drill the batter. Watching from the stands, I was mortified as his first 2 pitches went behind the rather large hitter (accuracy was always his strength). The coach yelled something from the dugout and Junior then proceeded to throw strikes and retire the batter.

That was his welcome to High School ball. The coach was old school to say the least and I bacame a fan of his during the season. The coach also recommended this book to Junior
: http://www.bernsteinbooks.com/...s/baseball_code.aspx

quote:

Originally posted by cball:
What it gets down to is it's an intentional assault. You "dot" one of my sons and it gets away and injures him you better have a lot of liability insurance or I get your house.

This is why at higher levels of ball the coaches don't call for it. They let the pitcher take care of business. Then the pitcher says the pitch got away. There's no way to prove otherwise.

quote:

Junior made the JV team summer before Freshman year of HS. He was a soft tossing lefty and did not get any time on the mound the first half of the summer season. His FIRST appearance came in relief on the wrong side of a blowout. Prior to Junior taking the mound, the opposing team continued to steal and take extra bases as our team threw the ball all over the park. The directive from the coach as he gave him the ball (I was told later) was to drill the batter. Watching from the stands, I was mortified as his first 2 pitches went behind the rather large hitter (accuracy was always his strength). The coach yelled something from the dugout and Junior then proceeded to throw strikes and retire the batter.

Don't you kind of wish he would have told your son to make a wild pickoff throw at 3rd and drill the 3rd base coach? He's the one that deserved getting hit.

My son has never intentionally beaned a batter in high school or travel ball. It may have looked like it to the opposing bleachers but hasn't happened. What happens and what is percieved by the spectators is almost always two different animals. In a game last year he faced a well known big time hitter who does not like to strike out. He pitched him inside a couple times forcing foul-offs and then threw an off speed. The inside pitches worked well and the count was 0-2. He left a cu up and it was drilled right back at his head. He knocked it down, picked it up in time and threw the guy out at first. The next time the guy was up he knew the inside stuff was coming and crowded the plate to take it away but the first pitch inside caught his jersey as he was falling back. HBP and the boo birds and accusations flew from the opposing bleachers. Yes I even heard a couple shout they saw the hit sign. They swore my son threw at him to get back for the head shot. There was no intentional head shot and there was no intentional HBP. Both kids were talking and joking after the game.

On the other hand I did see a travel ball game last summer where the pitcher was ejected for an intentional hit after he all but admitted it. The batter who was a first baseman was showing off on a routine play the previous inning. With his team up by a bunch of runs and two out there was a routine grounder to second base. The ball was scooped up and flipped to first in plenty of time for the easy out. Instead the first baseman took his foot off the bag and made a show of spinning around and slapping the bag with his glove. When that first baseman came up to bat next time around he was promptly hit with a fb to his ribs. The pitcher was only ejected after he yelled to the batter as he was making his way to first, "how's that workin for ya, hotdog". There was a lesson learned that day.

Slight digression: In Donald Hall's book "Fathers Playing Catch With Sons" Hall writes a good bit about Dock Ellis. It has been a few years since I read the book, but as I recall he describes a game when the Pirates played the Reds and Ellis hit the first three or four batters. It was a different time.

quote:

Originally posted by RJM:

quote:

Originally posted by cball:
What it gets down to is it's an intentional assault. You "dot" one of my sons and it gets away and injures him you better have a lot of liability insurance or I get your house.

This is why at higher levels of ball the coaches don't call for it. They let the pitcher take care of business. Then the pitcher says the pitch got away. There's no way to prove otherwise.

What coach hands the ball to a pitcher for his first time up and tells him to plunk someone?

quote:

Originally posted by TPM:

quote:

Originally posted by RJM:

quote:

Originally posted by cball:
What it gets down to is it's an intentional assault. You "dot" one of my sons and it gets away and injures him you better have a lot of liability insurance or I get your house.

This is why at higher levels of ball the coaches don't call for it. They let the pitcher take care of business. Then the pitcher says the pitch got away. There's no way to prove otherwise.

What coach hands the ball to a pitcher for his first time up and tells him to plunk someone?

I don't understand your question in context of my statement. There isn't an interaction between the coach and the pitcher. There's an unwritten code of protecting your teammates. Sometimes it involves retaliation. The pitcher knows when.

Deleted: A paragraph got in my post I didn't write.

Your worried about your son getting plunked because he might be told to plunk another kid? Just tell him to miss. And then tell him to turn in and duck.

RJM,
I hit the button without rereading my post.
You are correct, this is something that is decided between team mates, it's meant to protect and I got your back kind of thing.

So I don't get a coach giving the ball to a pitcher his first time out and telling him to plunk someone.

CM gives good advice, don't worry about it, if asked
duck.