Sosa 600 hof?

Good points deemax. Sosa has gotten a pass through all of this, until now maybe? I guess we'll see.

Even 600 "hof" are a lot.
Some day the roids era will be reconized as part of one of baseball mistakes, and not precisally players mistakes. The mistake belong to the commissioner and owners, that knowing what was happenning, they let it pass for the amount of money they were producing. Why players were the ones that have to confess first. Why the commissioner didn't took the responsability and confess the baseball guiltness. No!..the best was sacrified a couple of players in order to save the system. Come on!...do you know how many players used roids for the last 15 years?...do you know that more pitchers have used them than hitters?...
I know that this is an speculation issue and everybody will fire against who he hates more, but there is only one guilty: BASEBALL'S MONEY.

quote:

Originally posted by deemax:
IMO if Mark Mcgwire doesnt get in Sosa has no business being inducted either....After all Sosa is a proven cheat and Mcgwire is allegedly...Why the soft spot for Sammy and not Mcgwire (recent polls). Sorry for rambling....

HYPOCRITES! When Mark McGuire was being raked across the coals for pleading the Fifth Amendment any and all jumped on that bandwagon. Now, according to one poll, Sammy gets a 67% national approval rate. Guess everyone forgot that during the Congressional Hearings, he FORGOT TO SPEAK ENGLISH.

Racab, I'll agree with you in that the steroid issue is a baseball problem and all of MLB is probably at fault.

We must remember Sosa has been caught cheating.. something about the cork come to mind? He claims it was an accident... here let me solve the "accident": Don't have a corked bat in the first place!

****Posted at nearly the same time as CoachB.. Coach, I must agree with you. Now, I'm not a big fan of Big Mac after the Congressional hearings. Sosa and Big Mac are very similar. They should both receive the same fate. Ahh.. but herein lies the problem with that: Big Mac is Caucasin while Sosa is Latino therefore he shall receive special treatment.

Who was Baseball competeing with for entertainment $$.
I blame Big time WWE/WWF Wrestling.
All those super heroes of Pumped up roided out bodys on TV was taking away $$ from real sport's like baseball.
So to compete they pumped up also, What a shame.

The Game will survive on it's own merit.
Do they deserve the HOF?

Eventually!!

EH

Buldog, I don't think Palmeiro had an special treatment beeing Latino. Since when latinos players have special treatment?

quote:

Big Mac is Caucasin while Sosa is Latino therefore he shall receive special treatment.

Not sure what you're really trying say here Bulldog, but I have to disagree on that point.
The reason that Sosa has been given a pass up to this point is that he wasn't doing anything to draw attention. IOW, he wasn't on the HOF ballot, and he wasn't threatening to break perhaps the most hallowed of all modern day records.
That seems to have changed within the past 24 hours, as Sosa has re-emerged from the shadows of McGuire and Bonds with #600. The very fact that we're discussing this now and not last week is proof enough of that.
I think Racab makes some very strong points about the culpability of the owners and the Comish. Probably right about the pitchers too. Just how many may really shock the baseball world. But until it all comes out and many more fan favorites are exposed, the hatred will continue to be focused on a few great hitters of the steroid era. Sosa won't escape that.

I would automatically subtract 200 homers from his total--in my mind--when voting. A 1/3 of the total. Thus, he has 400 homers. Get another 100 and we'll talk, Sammy. I'd use the same equation with Bonds. 750 - 1/3(750)= 500.

Hmm, 500 and he's a meathead. Close call.

This is all such sanctimonius bull****.
Everybody knew about it, it wasnt illegal for most of the time the players used it, being non regulated and non tested. The players are not the culpable ones; if anything they were/are victimized by the moneymen. Baseball used them. Now it wants to blame them instead of themselves as outside fingers are pointing in. Get real. Just another example of exploitation of kids and young men and men that want to live the dream. No different from HS and college and minor league and major league and coaches that ride the hot arm until its gone.
FFS. Draw the line in the sand NOW! As in "as of now the following substances are illegal. Testing of all players will be done on a weekly basis. The coaches and managers of any player found to be testing positive wull be banned from BB for life, as will the player. Any team with 3 or more positive tests will have their franchise suspended until such time as ownership and management can be replaced. This list is subject to update weekly".
No further discussion of any sbstances that may have been usd prior to this list and testing.
All Done, no more problem, no shifting of blame, level playing field. Get on with it or shut up about it.

Giambis the only one that says let's get this over with.
Justme
Laydown the law,
And move on.
Sounds good to me.
EH

Maybe for all of these guys, put them in a special wing of the HOF, and add parenthetically how many of their home runs were hit on regular, and how many were hit on high test:

Example:

Sosa, Sammy 600 Home Runs*


(*200 regular, 400 High test)


This Wing of the Hall is sponsored by CVS Pharamacy.

Or how about putting up a building like this at Cooperstown?


For Basket Cases...sometimes being in the MLB is no picnic!

Do you guys recall the condition of MLB prior to the steroids era? hmmmmmm
That's why the owners looked the other way. Can you blame them?
Can you blame the players for legally taking a substance that could add millions to their contract?
The blame game is being played daily and it's making my head hurt.

The owners and players got what they wanted and left the fans holding the bag. For now we have to debate the issue until our heads hurt. The records, the HOF etc.. it makes me head mushy. And to add to all the steriod clutter THE RACE ISSUE GETS THROWN IN jeeeezzzzzzz. And the media eats it up.

This may sound silly but how can any of us say Sosa hit 400 of the 600 before the steriod era---how does anyone know


HEard a funny thing said about AROD today by Buster Olney---he mentioned that AROD'S body has changed in recent years but nobody is claiming he "uses"---fact is all our bodies change as we mature , some for the better and some for the worse.


Also mentioned was the fact that more pitchers than position players are using

He doesn't get my vote because he stunk as a player, regardless of the roids or the homers. Sosa never won a thing. He was a below average hitter, fielder and teammate. If they had a place in the hall of fame for the meaningless homerun, it would be named Sosa place. This fascination with a number and not the player behind the number is offensive. McGwire and Sosa both were one dimensional and should have been playing on beer league softball teams. IT IS TIME TO GET TOGETHER AND KEEP THE ONE TOOL PLAYERS OUT OF THE HALL OF FAME.

Sosa is in his 18th year. He has 2361 hits and counting. Life time BA is .273 his best year he hit .328 with 64 HRs and 160 RBI. He has 1628 RBI in his career and counting in addition to the 600 HRs. He hit over 60 HRs in three different seasons. He nmade the all star team 7 times. He led the league in games played, total bases and runs scored 3 times. He also has 234 stolen bases.

I’ve never been a big Sammy fan, but he was not a one tool player, in fact, he could run, hit, hit for power, and he had a plus arm. Depending on how you grade his fielding he was a 4 or 5 tool player! He is not the sweet guy that people see on the tube and it is true that some teammates didn’t care for him and he did get awful big and strong in a short period of time. But you surely must be joking about him belonging in Beer League Softball.

Yes, I can blame the owners for looking the other way, and the commish. The big reason MLB was 'in trouble' this time (which it has been repeatedly over the years, from the 19th C days of the 'ruffians', through the Black Sox, Flood's suit, pitcher domination, recreational drugs in the '80's....) was the '94 strike.

And nobody was taking anything "legally". Steroids are a Controlled Substance, taking such drugs without a valid prescription was at the time and still is against Federal Law.

Home Run Hitters and Pitchers do get the Big Bucks, so there was plently of motivation. I'm Old School (and, indeed, old). I don't much care for the dependence on the hr with what it's done to the game, and look forward to speed and small ball coming back into the game. And all the steroids have yet to produce another pitcher good enough to force the mound height to be adjusted.

Who opened this big ole can a worms anyway? oh my head!

As the manager of the Rangers said the other day......there aren't that many guys that hit 600 HR's in batting practice during their major league career, let alone in games.

Of course he belongs in the Hall.

Another ----- in the Hall?

Sorry, now I can't get an off-color version of Pink Floyd out of my mind...

Good point Keller Dad.

I've been one of Sammycork's most vocal critics.

Getting softer in my old age....

Congrats, Sammy. What a tremendous accomplishment.
People don't realize what strength and eye-hand coordination you have to have to hit a ball that far.

"Softer" Beenthere or are you just being lawyerly? Afterall, you couldn't say anything different and remain consistent with your enthusiastic support of Barroid.

quote:

Originally posted by PGStaff:
Sosa is in his 18th year. He has 2361 hits and counting. Life time BA is .273 his best year he hit .328 with 64 HRs and 160 RBI. He has 1628 RBI in his career and counting in addition to the 600 HRs. He hit over 60 HRs in three different seasons. He nmade the all star team 7 times. He led the league in games played, total bases and runs scored 3 times. He also has 234 stolen bases.

I’ve never been a big Sammy fan, but he was not a one tool player, in fact, he could run, hit, hit for power, and he had a plus arm. Depending on how you grade his fielding he was a 4 or 5 tool player! He is not the sweet guy that people see on the tube and it is true that some teammates didn’t care for him and he did get awful big and strong in a short period of time. But you surely must be joking about him belonging in Beer League Softball.

PG, I understand your point that Sammy should not be compared to a softball player, but just posting his stats is not the answer either.

Anyone who takes the time to look at Sosa's career can see the impact the steroid era had on his career and the obvious advantage it gave him over the players who came along before him.

I will use Frank Robinson's career as just one example. Frank and Sammy have similar career numbers but a closer look reveals Frank's natural decline from a HOF career and Sammy's sudden burst late in his very average career. If you take Sammy's early numbers and show normal decline equal to Frank's, Sammy doesn't even get 2000 hits and is probably out of the major leagues with no fanfare well before 18 years of service.

As to his being a 4 or 5 tool player, here's the problem.

1.) A steroid aided .273 career average stinks and means we eliminate hitting for average as one of Sammy's tools.

2.) He can't field. That is common knowledge. So we eliminate fielding.

This leaves him as a 3 tool player at best without really excelling in any of those 3.

In an earlier thread called 'Whatever happened to the 5 tool player, the PG definition of a 5 tool player was, "A true 5 tool player should be one with well above average grades in all 5 categories."

Wherever Sammy fits in using the above definition, he falls well short of a 4 or 5 tool player.

As far as the HOF goes, at least Bonds was an awesome player and MVP before he took steroids and Mark McGwire hit 49 homers his rookie year. In fact, the one dip in McGwire's home run pace was the 2 years after he tore his rib cage muscle in the early 90's.

I know the opinions here are mixed on whether Sammy should get in the HOF or not, but either way, the decision should be made only after a thorough examination of his career accomplishments.

I think the one thing that Sammy Sosa's career does prove is that steroids do make you a better player and enhance your performance. I have heard some people dismiss steroids by saying how much hand eye coordination it takes to hit a baseball at the MLB level.

But I agree with what Jose Canseco said, "Steroids will make a good player great and a great player supernatural." The statistics of these older players does bear this out.

Keep in mind that Jose Canseco would sell his mother if it meant he got press ---with that in mind I ignore anything the man says

quote:

Originally posted by TRhit:
Keep in mind that Jose Canseco would sell his mother if it meant he got press ---with that in mind I ignore anything the man says

Canseco as the villian is a joke. It just goes to show how easily the media can dictate how the masses perceive celebrities.

The one thing celebrities hear the most when people meet them for the first time is 'You're not what I expected you to be like.' It is actually the journalists and media outlets who would sell their mothers for a story.

quote:

I know the opinions here are mixed on whether Sammy should get in the HOF or not, but either way, the decision should be made only after a thorough examination of his career accomplishments.

Dear old Dad,

OK, let us use only that criteria...

People have to make their own judgment regarding steroids. But Sammy Sosa’s statistics ARE Hall of Fame material. This is whether he has three, four, or five tools!

Let’s compare stats of a Hall of Famer that no one disputes.

Sosa and Reggie Jackson who was nearly a unanimous selection the first year he was eligible for the Hall of Fame.

Reggie – 21 years
Sammy – 18 years

Reggie – Life Time BAve, .262
Sammy – Life Time B Ave, .273

Reggie – HRs, 563
Sammy – HRs, 600 and still counting

Reggie – RBI, 1702
Sammy – RBI, 1628 and still counting

Reggie – SB, 228
Sammy – SB, 234

Reggie – OB%, .356
Sammy – OB%, .344

Reggie – Slg%, .490
Sammy – Slg%, .535

Reggie – Total Bases, 4834
Sammy – Total Bases, 4619 and still counting

So here is the way I see it, based on nothing but the statistics. Either Sammy Sosa belongs in the Hall of Fame or Reggie Jackson doesn't belong in the Hall of Fame. There are many players in the HOF who do not have Sosa's statistics. I understand that Reggie Jackson was Mr. October and played on Championship teams and Sosa didn't. But the only thing that could be a reason for not electing Sosa is something other than the accomplishments or statistics. And do you really think a power hitter with a .273 life time batting average in an 18 year career in the Major Leagues stinks?

Sammy Sosa was signed as a very skinny kid who could run, throw, field and hit. The power came later and people do not think it came naturally.

How do you keep 600 home runs, or 583 for that matter, out of the Hall? Certainly not forever.

Interesting article on steroids and home runs and a professors viewpoint - the professor has a paper on this subject under "research". Hope these links work for you guys to keep debating this.

http://www.mlive.com/sports/grpress/index.ssf?/base/spo...091914610.xml&coll=6

http://www.arthurdevany.com/2007/06/steroid_amnesty_1.html

quote:

Originally posted by PGStaff:
[QUOTE]
Sammy Sosa was signed as a very skinny kid who could run, throw, field and hit. The power came later and people do not think it came naturally.

Using Reggie Jackson as a comparable player to Sosa, we see that Reggie made his first All-Star team in his 2nd full season and then made 13 more. Sosa made one All-Star team prior to 1998, his 9th in the league . From that point on he made the All-Star team 6 of the next 7 seasons and broke Roger Maris's record 3 times in 4 years.

Again, comparing Sosa's career stats year by year against the great home run hitters of the past, a clear pattern emerges that some people choose to ignore. Sosa's career numbers are not built in the same way as all the other HOF players. Sosa's final career numbers may be similar to other great players but the way he got those numbers is evidence against him.

The way I see it, Sosa has the numbers for the HOF. We know he has cheated on the ball field. Those who wish to reward him for his behavior should support him getting in to the HOF. Those who don't should not support him.

Also, if you support Sosa, you should support Bonds, McGwire and any other player with HOF worthy numbers and ignore the steroid issue completely.

PG - My comment about a .273 average refers to the hitting for average tool. One cannot hit .273 and say they are a 5 tool player. I know there are many great home run hitters with an average near .273, but they are not 5 tool players.

dont want to hear any of it. Hall of fame! keep hittin them sammy.

Sammy just hit another!

yep, but i dont see him getting through the 2008 season like he says he wants to.

If these guys get in and Pete Rose is still banned then I think there's a problem.

I have best idea of all!

We ban Bud Selig from every visiting Cooperstown. or just get rid of him. after all the steroids era came durring his time as commissioner, now he wants to "clean up" baseball and act like how he ran the league had nothing to do with it.

he attended the San Fran vs baltimore (i think baltimore) game the other day. he snuck in and did not talk to any media. the little scared sneaky commissioner is an idiot. IMO

Everyone has their own opinion on Sosa and his alleged steroid use. But it sounded like some folks don't think he accomplished enough or was good enough (with or without) steroids.

IMO The only thing that can possibly keep Sosa out of the Hall of Fame is something other than his statistics or ability. Same for McGwire and of course Bonds. The voters will make that call.

Yes, there are steroid allegations and the corked bat. But I can’t agree with those who disregard his accomplishments or his ability. And I can’t argue with those who think he cheated along the way. His accomplishments (alone) are obviously Hall of Fame material.

Regarding tools… Tools are tools. I have a hard time saying a power hitter who hits over .300 four years and hits well above league ave nearly every year is not a well above average hitter. The hitting “tool” relates to the ability to hit for average. If a player even hits .300 once in the Major Leagues, he had that tool. After that it is all about consistency and longevity.

I really don’t care if he is elected to the Hall of Fame or not.

Looking at a 10 year span in Sosa’s prime, here are his statistics. The League average is on the right.

1994 - BA .300 – HR 25 – RBI 70 – Runs 59 - SB 22 (League B ave. .267)
1995 – BA .268 – HR 36 – RBI 119 – Runs 89 - SB 34 (League B ave. .263)
1996 – BA .273 – HR 40 – RBI 100 – Runs 84 - SB 18 (League B ave. .262)
1997 – BA .251 – HR 36 – RBI 119 – Runs 90 - SB 22 (League B ave. .263)
1998 – BA .308 – HR 66 – RBI 158 – Runs 134 - SB 18 (League B ave. .262)
1999 – BA .288 – HR 63 – RBI 141 – Runs 114 - SB 7 (League B ave. .268)
2000 – BA .320 – HR 50 – RBI 138 – Runs 106 - SB 7 (League B ave. .266)
2001 – BA .328 – HR 64 – RBI 160 – Runs 146 - SB 0 (League B ave. .261)
2002 – BA .288 – HR 49 – RBI 108 – Runs 122 - SB 2 (League B ave. .259)
2003 – BA .279 – HR 40 – RBI 103 – Runs 99 - SB 0 (League B ave. .262)

Maybe someday we can look at players and judge them for the time they played in. I believe McGwire, Sosa, and Bonds would have been HOF's regardless of whether they used steroids or not.

It is almost impossible to compare numbers across generations. Dead ball periods, live ball periods, small ball parks, large ball parks, short left field fenses, short right field fences, modern ball parks, etc. When you look at Reggie Jackson, other than the homerun total, his other numbers do not standout so much. There were other factors that got him in such as being Mr. October. Things like that count for something. Mark McGwire was AL Rookie of the year with 49 homers before there were steroids. Barry Bonds was a great player before he got to the Giants. Sosa and McGwire saved baseball and made the whole nation fall in love with it again. That stuff means something.

We cannot unring the bell from the ugly sound of steroids but we might be able to say these players were great in their own right. Sure we'll never know what if. But it seems we can make these type of judgments about ability in context of a given era while still working to clean-up the game we all love.

ClevelanDad
Agree 110%
Good post!

...*

In the Hall - not in the Hall. No difference to me.

The only thing I think of when I see the names McGwire - Sosa - Bonds - Palmeiro - and so many others is that old commercial line:

Its not nice to fool Mother Nature. LOL