Spectator's Conduct??

Also I would like to add, That the kid that was being harrased by the fan never acknowledged that he heard this knucklehead. He did however answer with his actions on the field. After being called a name he drove the next pitch to the gap in RC and pretty much nailed the lid shut on the other team.
A JOB WELL DONE #16

Only happened to me once as a player. Coach did nothing. Sitting near the on deck circle...before it was my turn at bat as I was walking up to the on deck area (didn't have circles then), I walked up to the kid and asked him if he wanted to be wearing his teeth on his ears.

Foul-mouthing ended.

As I get much older, I agree...The better way is to do something on the field.

I believe controlling players and fans behavior rests solely on the head coach's shoulders. I only have issues with first year players and parents, and usually just once. Once they know that I mean business when I say their conduct is unacceptable, it usually isn't a problem any more. I think the message has filtered down since 1997. In that year, I had a dad who berated an umpire in the 3rd game of the season. After telling him not to attend the next game, he showed up anyway. His son was our starting 2B. As soon as I saw his dad, I pulled the player off of the field and into the dugout. After the game, I spoke with the father and told him I had a couple of good leads for other teams for his son to play on. It hit him right in the mouth. His actions weren't going to hurt him, they would simply hurt his son. He asked if he could be given a second chance...and after a little deliberation, I decided to allow it. He would face a 1 week suspension from watching games, and as long as his behavior was OK when he returned we wouldn't have any additional problems. No problem until the last tournament of the year. Needless to say, his son played for another team the next season!

Gees, Larry.

Make sure that anyone I know doesn't play for you!!!


You can't handle the dad so you punish the son?

Different kind of thinking in Maryland. Is it the water?

I just can't believe that you, as a coach, would do that to a kid whose father might be a mope!

i watched it as well and i think as long as it doesnt result to violence its fine. i mean these kids are 18. what would you be saying if you were that age?

Larry

I think Beenthere is bang on.
Deal with the Father.
Don't punish the kid.

Are we talking about Heckling?
Or something much more negative?

______________________________
By the time you learn how to play the game...
You can't play it anymore ~ Frank Howard

Amazing!

the Florida Bombers
"I love the HSBBW"

I think Larry did the right thing. It doesn't kill a kid to sit one game - it just gives another player a chance to play. So I wouldn't view this as an untoward "punishment" of the son. And I suspect it's about the only thing that would keep a Dad like that under control, (for most of the season, anyway.) Which was probably of more benefit to the kid than anyone else...
For those of you who criticize - do you really think that you would be able to achieve the results that Larry got by some other means? I've dealt with "those Dads" and believe me, their ability to believe that their behavior is justified is astonishing.
Good work, Larry.

D'oh!

Loudmouths, hecklers, and A-holes in the stands continue at several games thoughout the year however, they are not the norm. Maybe our coaches up North here or the parents,fans in the stands are more outspoken directly to the big mouths. Since our season is so short we may just have fewer opportunities for the A-holes to show up.
Seriously, the fans that berate the umpires or the opposition do not understand the game or respect the talent required to participate. Basically, they need some attention.

NO WAY is it the coaches responsibility.

If we are talking high school it is the duty of the administrator on duty to deal with this.

I have no problem with the coach making the suggestion to the administrator. I have no problem with a fan or a referee making the suggestion.

But it is the administrators duty to deal with it.

And please, no referee or umpire should EVER address a fan. That is the height of poor officiating.

PDog

I respectfully disagree.
If a parent is expected to go to a coach with any complaints....Why wouldn't the same protocol be in place for a coach with a parental problem. Go to the parent.
Why the double standard?

______________________________
I will make errors this season.
Write it down....Derek Jeter

You sure don't punish the player because of his parent(s)

TRhit

I have seen a few umpires in my day throw out spectators. Our state has a huge college rilvary. The opposing team started throwing things (I won't elaborate) on the court during basketball games. The officials started dishing out technical fouls, and things changed. If it means losing a game, the parents may change their tune. How about an automatic out for the offending parents team?

"There's no crying in baseball!"

I'll just sit in the opponents crowd and draw the out.

At our HS the Athletic Director or one of his appointed representatives are at every sporting event. It is their job not to let this happen and it doesn't.. When it starts, the person in the stand, no matter who they are, gets a warning, the 2nd time they are gone. More than once I have seen the AD get the police to get the person not only out of the stands but off the property.

For the benefit of both the home and away players, I salute the HS no tolerance policy.

_______________
"Baseball, it is said, is only a game. And the Grand Canyon is only a hole."

"JustMom"

Punishing a player because his father was a jerk is just another example of how some coaches enjoy instilling fear into the players. I just cannot believe that you would punish a kid for that.
Our coach does not allow such behavior and no one would dare to try it. However the rude behavior just gets the adrenaline flowing and usually works the opposite of what the rude spectator is trying to accomplish.

chill...That is all some people understand...a double standard.

baseball50 is right...Some coaches are all about "fear" and this guy is one of them. Happy he doesn't coach around here.

at our small HS the principal takes care of
unruly fans at sporting events. if he is not
there it is usually a combined effort of the
teachers and or parents. the coach has his job
to do.

Let me explain a little further. At the beginning of each summer season (about 1 week before opening day) we have a parents only meeting. We have a written code of conduct for parents, and it is clearly spelled out that parents will not engage with umpires or opposing players/coaches, else that parent's son will be expelled from the game at that moment. We put that in back in 1994 because of what happened at a high school game in the neighboring town. Parent and umpire starting throwing haymakers after a brief verbal confrontation. Back to me. The parents are given ample clarification of this rule, but mostly first year parents are the ones who try and challenge it. We don't want to "handle" our parents, we want them to enjoy watching the boys play. We, as a coaching staff, do not yell, scream, curse or publicly criticize umpires...and we don't allow our players or parents to do it either. We pay them $50 per game for about 2.5 hours of work. To me, that doesn't entitle us to abuse them. One fellow said they must do things differently in MD. All I am representing here is me and my summer baseball program. If other coaches feel the need to confront parents and threaten them for their behavior, fine, but not us. We simply feel that "adults" should be able to conduct themselves as adults at a youth baseball game. And if they see that their actions are hurting their son, maybe they are more likely to behave themselves! And for the person who said it is a good way to instill fear in our players, you are way off base. Our players don't seem like they fear us, otherwise we wouldn't get as many wedding and birth announcements as we have the past 15 years. Maybe having your 18 yr. old son tell you your actions as a fan are embarrassing would make an out of control parent look in the mirror more often! We try to treat our players with respect and dignity, all the while letting them and their parents know they have been given an opportunity, and that they should do everything in their power not to embarrass the program. Sorry for the length!

A little more...I'm kinda fired up. For further perspective on how we handle things, I have sat players (even starters!) or removed them from a game for some of the following reasons:
1. driving too fast on the way to a game (legendary up here, and this story makes its way through each age group - happened in 1998, starting pitcher that night).
2. throwing equipment - 2000, 1st inning of first game of a DHer, starting CFer. Great kid, just made a mistake. Popped up with 2 outs, runner on 2nd/3rd. Threw helmet, realized he did wrong, then went over and sat on the bench. Didn't even have to tell him!
3. drawing a line in the dirt near home plate after an inside pitch was called a strike. - 2000, AAU Championships in Orlando.

I'm not saying my way is the best way, but it is what I can live with.

Chill...in the example posted in my original email, how should I have handled it? Do I:

A. confront the parent right then, taking attention away from the game, and having a 5-10 minute chat with him, knowing that it will probably continue throughout the game.
B. ignore it, and allow the umpire to get into with the parent...maybe hold it against my team (umpires are human)...who does that hurt?
C. any suggestions?

Tell the ump that it would be ok to toss the troublemaker. That is his job. He will do it if he knows he has your blessing.

the Florida Bombers
"I love the HSBBW"

If the offending fan or player is using bad language, run him/her.

If not, any paid umpire should be able to take it. $50 for 2.5 hours of work, whis not a living wage, is decent part-time money, especially when most get mileage as well.

If the umpire is a volunteer, you say nothing.

If a player starts getting on someone from the opposing team, the coach can/should handle that quickly. If it's a fan, an official's gentle nudge ought to take care of it. Otherwise, a stiff shove ought to do it.

We get so crazy with these codes of conduct that is becomes sickening. Maybe it's just me, but the fewer rules, the better.

Private sector teams can pick whom they want on their teams. So choose more carefully the kind of player and family you want and get off the high horse.

Sir...I'm not on any high horse. I don't have a lot of rules, but getting kids from 10-13 schools each year, you have to have some guidelines. How could I have known this parent was going to act like this during the recruiting process? Don't you think everyone puts their best foot/face forward until they have made a team? Come on! And with all due respect, asking the umpire to RUN HIM seems to me to be the cowards way out of a coach not being willing to address the situation. We have addressed the situation...clearly defined...no grey area. And why should I have to tell the umpire it is OK to toss the fan...he knows that! But why would any coach allow it to get to the point that the umpire needs to make a decision like that? Are any of the folks out there giving me advice actually coaches, and handled a situation like this? If so, what did you do, or what would you have done? And don't say knock him in the nose. I am a very fit, strong person...but haven't hit anybody in about 20 years (I was 17 then).

When you're putting together a private sector team, you talk to players, parents, coaches, scouts and friends. If you don't know what you're getting, you find out.

I have been a coach, umpire and organizer in several sports for a lot of years. If you're talking a short tourney run, I'll agree you might not get as good a pool of information.

But if you're going to be together for 3-4 months, on the road a lot, usually under at least minimal stress, you want to have at least an inkling of what you're in for.

It is my experience that a good parent group will police itself if one gets out of control, so the umpire and/or coach won't have to do anything. In fact, it is often good policy to have a GM who takes care of that kind of situation so the coach stays out of it.

quote:

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Come on! And with all due respect, asking the umpire to RUN HIM seems to me to be the cowards way out of a coach not being willing to address the situation. We have addressed the situation...clearly defined...no grey area. And why should I have to tell the umpire it is OK to toss the fan...he knows that!

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Then what is the problem? Don't ask for opinions if you don't want to hear any. An umpires rule book allows for sanctions. Let him deal with it. The reason you tell him it is ok is so that your team doesn't get penalized. If your real problem is that you cannot take heckling (which is part of the game ) and that you want to be in control, then do what you want. As far as a cowards way out, that would be punishing the kid and not dealing with the dad. With all due respect. A term, which by the way, is usually used just before you are disrespectful.

quote:

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Are any of the folks out there giving me advice actually coaches, and handled a situation like this? If so, what did you do, or what would you have done? And don't say knock him in the nose. I am a very fit, strong person...but haven't hit anybody in about 20 years (I was 17 then).

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If that is your level of maturity as a coach, then I see why you have problems. Try a persoanlity and a conversation. You get more with honey than vinegar. Over reacting to a situation, the way you did to my nicely put suggestion seems to be your biggest problem.

the Florida Bombers
"I love the HSBBW"

Let's get back to H&R's post about the conduct at a HS game...

If student(s) (or parents) in the stands are causing a ruckus, the administrator has the authority to remove said "antagonists".

We had an incident last year (with an across district team) that seemed to be escalating until about 3 police squad cars showed up! The opposing spectators got real quiet & we all enjoyed the game!

Larry,

I disagree with what you have written on this post. Now, I understand there may have been other circumstances but why punish the kid for the father's actions?!? It is not his fault that his dad is a jerk. Why not just walk up to his dad between innings (or have an assistant do it) and tell him to pipe down. 9 times out of 10, he will be so embarassed that he will stop immediately

I think the bigger problem is that you suspended the dad from watching his son for 1 week. You gotta be kidding me! Who are you to tell a parent they can't come to a game?!? Please note that I am not being a jerk but I am incredulous that you would have the b4lls to say this to a parent.

Last season at one of our home games, a parent with the other team spend the whole game yelling at the umpire. Any call that went against his team he complained very loudly. When the game was over he was waiting in the parking lot. He approached the umpire and began yelling in his face. The umpire tried several times to walk away. The man just wouldn't quit. He got within an inch of the umpire and bumped against him with his chest. The umpire pushed the man away with his hands. The man swung at the umpire who managed to move in time.While all of this was going on I called the police. The umpire pushed the man a second time and he fell to the ground. The man got up got to his car and started to leave. The police showed up I pointed the car out to them as it drove away. The man was stopped and the police noticed he had been drinking. They arrested him for DUI and assult. I don't know what he had to do because of those charges, I do know he was banded from all LHSAA events for 1 full year. Sometimes the adults are worst than the kids. Tomorrow my son's team plays this team for the first time since this happened. This time we go to their field, hope all goes well and peaceful.

quote:

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Private sector teams can pick whom they want on their teams. So choose more carefully the kind of player and family you want and get off the high horse.

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Now that is what I call "punishing the kid for the sins of his parents." I'm sticking with Larry, here. Sitting a kid one game in order to get his Dad to behave isn't what I call "punishing the kid." And doing it only after the Dad 1) ignored the preseason instructions, and 2) showed up at the next game after being "suspended" by the coach shows that Larry is hardly being a dictatorial hothead (and a lot about the Dad.)
That boy got a net benefit from that brief time on the pine - it shut his moron Dad up for most of the season. I'll repeat what I said before - I seriously doubt that the naysayers here could have gotten as good a result out of the situation with as little pain as Larry did.

By the way, when I was involved in running a wide spread baseball league which played in public parks we adopted a policy designed to deal with disruptive spectators (in light of the fact that neither the umps nor any league administrators had the authority to kick a person out of a public park):
If the ump felt that a spectator was causing a problem, he was to call both teams' managers out onto the field, in plain view. He would advise them of the problem, identify the disruptive spectator (quietly), and suspend play for 5 minutes. During that time, the coaches could do whatever they thought appropriate. If the disruption resumed, the same procedure was followed, with the offender being pointed out publicly, followed by the announcement that the game would be cancelled unless that person left the vicinity of the playing field within 5 minutes. Since most of the spectators wanted the game to continue, there was a certain amount of public pressure for the bad guy to leave.
The policy was designed to not punish either team, and to not require the ump to decide which team was responsible for the bad guy(s), while still solving the problem.

D'oh!

Much of my coaching style was learned behavior watching my college coach, Mike Fox, currently the head coach at the Univ. of North Carolina. He seemed to handle things on the field during the game, and for those things outside of the playing field that could go on during a game, he would have already made contingencies for them. Like, having an administrator present to handle out of control fans, etc... We don't have such an administrator...being a summer program and all. I never thought my level of maturity would be called into question. I want to win every game we compete in, but not at all costs! What is wrong with my having a private organization and running it the way we see fit? Anyone who doesn't want to abide by our rules is welcome to play somewhere else. We have developed these rules over 15 years of coaching together as a staff and program. Until 1997, we didn't have any post-season success. Beginning in 1998, we have appeared in 4 NABF World Series. I feel like our maturity as a coaching staff started to click and the success of our program began to take off. We don't measure our success in World Series won or rankings, but simply in developing as a team and teaching players the game of baseball. However, sometimes circumstances outside of our control warrant serious action. Again, we understand that players and parents are a package deal, and we appreciate the terrific fan support we get from the parents. However, I'm not going to embarrass a parent or our program by confronting a parent during a game situation. Maybe we'll never enjoy the success of some of our brothers from Florida and the like, but I have no problem sleeping at night. BTW, some of my comments may have come across as arrogant or cocky, but I didn't intend it that way. I was hoping to maybe learn something or make someone else think of alternative methods of handling unruly parents.

Bballdownsouth...I can relate to your situation. We had a player about 6 years ago whose dad frequently showed up at games drunk. However, he was not unruly. It would, however, upset the player (currently AAA with the Rangers). I told him anytime he was on the mound and felt like he needed to come out, he just had to give me the nod. He was often ashamed and embarrassed, and sometimes he was visibly shaken on the mound.

Redbird5, thanks for your perspective. I can simply say that I am the man who makes the rules for a private organization. See above, love it or leave it.

And finally, to the Bomber. You get more with honey then vinegar...sounds like something a salesman said to me once. The honey time was at the pre-season meeting. Parents know that they are always welcome to talk to us about things. We learn from them very often. But don't break the rules that you agreed to live by and think I am going to let it slide because your son is a starter. Wrong answer!

quote:

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BTW, some of my comments may have come across as arrogant or cocky, but I didn't intend it that way. I was hoping to maybe learn something or make someone else think of alternative methods of handling unruly parents.

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All I was doing was giving an opinion. I did not disrespect you in any way. Your response was arrogant, cocky, and condescending. It certainly wasn't deserving of your response. You asked for suggestions and I gave one. If you don't want to use it then don't attacking me for my opinion was not mature.

My honey and vinegar anology was about your overreaction to my suggestion, not to your team meeting. If you don't want to hear another op[inion then don't ask for one.

the Florida Bombers
"I love the HSBBW"

Larry,

I run a private organization as well. In some respects, I run it like my college coach ran our Top 25 program.

I agree with almost everything you said in this topic and most of the policies. I also agree with love it or leave it.

However, I think suspending a father is absurd. I also think that benching a kid for his father riding the umpire is crazy. Could you have quietly talked to the father between innings? I mean, you don't play in large stadiums with large crowds. It wouldn't have been a large distraction for you or anyone else. Besides, the humiliation of a coach going out of his way to talk to a parent during a game sends the same message, IMO.

Redbird5,

I appreciate your words of experience. In this case, quietly approaching the parent would not have worked. I had used and have used this same approach many times. My instincts in this case were right on. Extreme conditions called for extreme measures. And this rule has always been looked upon as an extreme case, but that is because we expect our fans to treat the umpires and opposing teams with courtesy and respect. I make it my business to know all of our parents, and in this case I just knew (as did our other coaches) that something like this might happen. We also knew that if it did, bringing it to his attention, even in a public forum, would not have disuaded him. Pulling his son off the field, however, did keep him from continuing on the umpire towards a potentially disastrous confrontation. He knew it was because of his actions, the other parents knew, and the player knew it was no reflection on him. It was simply a rule, and that was the consequence if the rule was broken.
Our experiences, as a staff together for 15 years, have told us that parent/coach/player relationships can be quite emotional. I like to think I am objective, but I don't expect a parent to be objective about his own child. It is nice when they are, and it has been my experience that 90% are, but for the 10% who aren't, it can make for some awkward situations. I have found those 10% to be folks who behave one way to get their son on your team, and then change their behavior once the season starts. This encompasses fan behavior during games, discussions of playing time/roles, etc... Maybe we are approaching this wrong in addressing the sins of the 10%, but this is how we have decided to do things.
Best of luck to everyone!

larry,

I would hope this was a 10% type of situation. Best of luck.

Interesting subject. At our small private religious affiliated school, the parents as well as players are REQUIRED to sign a conduct statement. Basically, no swearing, no degrading comments about players or umpires, and for the players, no throwing equipment.

I have heard the announcers at various games ask the fans for cooperation and cite the CIF motto of sportsmanship. At tournament, CIF officials have gone into the stands to ask fans to tone down their comments. I can't recall ever seeing an umpire speak with a fan, although I do remember an umpire speaking with a coach and asking him to talk to the fans.

We had a Dad who really had a hard time, especially when his son was pitching. We, the others parents would talk him through games; eventually he decided to sit out in left field - it was just easier for him.

Funny though. A school in our league is well known for their parents, ahem, unsportmanlike comments. Our pitcher (who has a hearing deficit) always talked about the GRAND parents who would start talking in trash before the game even started. We knew it had to be loud because he had a very hard time hearing his coaches instructions from the bench but could hear grand pa sitting in his lawn chair behind home plate.

Repeated comments from our coach to their coach, then from our AD to their AD, and eventually principal to principal didn't help contain these folks.

Last year, on our home field, our AD and principal were in the stands. When Grandpa started with his trash talking, they went down and very politely escorted him from the field. The other parents all made notes -- I'll be interested to see if the behavior improves this year -- at least on our home field.

Now that our pitcher is in college we've had a bit of culture shock. It isn't that the parents are out of line, but we've spent 4 years without hearing "colorful" language or strongly worded suggestions to the umpire about strike zones.

Say Hey!

If you are so worried about fan conduct, all you need is one simple code: What gets you tossed as a player can get you tossed as a spectator.

You know, if folks spent as more time worrying about teaching kids to play and less time mandating how their fans behave, we might find more interesting games and better-behaved spectators. It so often seems to be the case that the better-played games are the ones with less trouble.

There really is something to be said about "it's not whether you win or loss, but how you play the game."

OldVaman...amen! Don't know if you are familiar with Chris Warren's Northern Va. Barnstormers? Super team every year. Year in and year out we have great competitive games with them winning slightly more then us. No fan problems, great games, and lots of fun. Another team in that same area is also in our league. We clobber them almost every time. Fans are borish and obnoxious, and it is really noticeable even from the dugout.