SPEED VS POWER

I bet you get a lot of answers that are position-dependent1

All I can add is that I know 2 kids, C+/B- talent, A+ speed and both were drafted in the second round. One outfield the other short (short is still leading his team in errors)

Depends on the posistion played , team needs , coach preference , how much team speed do you have , how much power does your team have.

I just HOPE the scouts are starting to look at contact, SPEED, and defense (as opposed to raw power) like some of the reports I have been reading.

JT,

That surpries me that they would ever stop looking at raw power, doesnt that surprise you?Yes other tools are important, but really cant teach raw power. Just as I dont think you can teach a 6.5 or 6.6 60 yard dash. You can work on it but that kind of speed seems to be given to you.And if you have that kind of speed they are going to be looking at you.

What gets me is when a poor fast player gets way too much of a chance because he runs fast to first base. It doesn't matter though when you can't square the ball up!

Also, it kills me when a team declares their speed problem fixed with the addition of one "speed" player.

Speed all by itself will not get a player drafted. Speed with at least one other tool "could" get a player drafted. Speed with two other tools "will" get a player drafted. Speed with any other three tools will get a player drafted early!

One of the fastest 6.2 60 runners I've seen was a outstanding centerfielder. He had a below average arm, well below average power, and he was a below average hitter. He couldn't get any of the 30 professional clubs to draft him or sign him as a free agent. This even after stealing 100 bases and hitting over .400 in his final college year.

The only tool that can get a player drafted all by itself involves the bat!

While it ultimately comes down to skills, in the raw stages I would think it would be easier for a fast player to develop power (assuming he can hit) versus a powerful hitter developing speed.

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While it ultimately comes down to skills, in the raw stages I would think it would be easier for a fast player to develop power (assuming he can hit) versus a powerful hitter developing speed.

RJM,
Now that is pretty hard to argue against!

Guess you could say... You could be the fastest runner on Earth and never make it to the Big Leagues. But... If you truly are the best Power Hitter on Earth... You're headed to the Hall-of-Fame!

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Originally posted by PGStaff:

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While it ultimately comes down to skills, in the raw stages I would think it would be easier for a fast player to develop power (assuming he can hit) versus a powerful hitter developing speed.

RJM,
Now that is pretty hard to argue against!

Guess you could say... You could be the fastest runner on Earth and never make it to the Big Leagues. But... If you truly are the best Power Hitter on Earth... You're headed to the Hall-of-Fame!

.... and you get to jog around the bases a lot.

I love the takers on this one...for my son who is a 6'4 1st baseman(not the fastest kid on the field..nor the slowest) I used to tell him that he just had to hit the ball farther

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Originally posted by JPontiac:
What gets me is when a poor fast player gets way too much of a chance because he runs fast to first base. It doesn't matter though when you can't square the ball up!

Yeah but they can get back to the dugout much quicker than anybody else. At least they got that going for them.

I agree there are a ton of things you got to look at to really answer this but if I was building a team or whatever I would have to go with speed. Now I'm talking about guys who have some bat skill and can put the ball in play. I just feel their on base percentage will be more beneficial than a guy who hits a lot of homeruns.

I think the mental impact of speed and long innings does more than a homerun. Think of it like this - you got a guy up there with a runner on base and a homerun is hit. The pitcher can take the next couple of seconds and compose himself and "start" over. It might be the thing that settles him down and he goes out and shuts the other team down. But if you got a bunch of speed guys then you are hitting gappers and now the pitcher is running around in backup position, concentrating harder because of runners on and all kinds of stuff. Now the pitcher is thinking "when will it end".

Of course I would never get onto a kid who jacks a 500 foot homerun with three runners on. In fact I might high five him as he comes around third.

Coach--I've never seen a pitcher that says "thanks for yanking my last pitch over the center field fence..now I can settle myself down and get it done" ...The power hitters get it done, that's why the coveted 4 hole is so important. They are the ones that get the fast guys around the bases and in the dugout quicker.

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"thanks for yanking my last pitch over the center field fence..now I can settle myself down and get it done"

HMMMMMMMM....... let me see if I ever said this in my preceding post.........

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I think the mental impact of speed and long innings does more than a homerun. Think of it like this - you got a guy up there with a runner on base and a homerun is hit. The pitcher can take the next couple of seconds and compose himself and "start" over. It might be the thing that settles him down and he goes out and shuts the other team down.

Nope sure didn't. There are numerous times where a pitcher has given up a dinger and then came out and shut the other team down. I wonder why that is?

Why do you think good pitching beats good hitting? Speed can change the game by putting pressure on the defense and never get the ball out of the infield. You start moving that defense around and get that pitcher thinking you are going to be a good shape.

Now if you want to put a line up out there with guys that can mash and you sit there and watch - more power to you. I will take my speedy guys and play you any day of the week.

You might beat me 10 out of 10 times or I could beat you 10 out of 10 times or we each go 5 - 5 or some variation of. Doesn't matter because neither way it wrong. It's just how your team is made up.

So in other wards you focus on your strong suits--the make up of your team that year. Lot's of speedy guys ---you steel bases. Lots of power hitters and gap hitters you just sit back and "maybe high five"them as they round 3rd base. And I guess it depends on the mental make-up of the pitcher...some might settle down or get mad for the embarrassment of the last long ball over the fence and others might fold and fall apart ..end of story. I have to say though there's nothing like the sound of that ball coming off that bat to make most of the baseball fans around the world smile!

When talking about speed and how fast someone, especially an outfielder, is or should be I have an equation.
"The further you hit it, the slower you can be."

The highest paid MLB position players are the power hitters who drive in a lot of runs. That should be a barometer of what is important for teams. On offense it's all about scoring runs.

But, their is nothing better to watch than a really fast player hitting a triple or scoring from first on gapper. How about scoring from 2nd on a sac bunt.
That was fun.

You'd prefer to have some of both speed and power. Which is better? Speed plays on defense as well as offense. On the other hand power ages better.

An example from this week about how a player's bat can carry him:

Pat Burrell just signed a deal for 2 years at $8M per season (considered by many to be a bargain price). I've seen him rated as a 20 runner and 20 fielder. He's a career .257 hitter (lots of Ks) and I'm not sure about his arm. But he's averaged roughly 30 homers per year, and he walks around 100 times per season. So he gets on base and hits with power. There's a reason they called him "Pat the Bat"

Folks, there is a hilarious old radio out-take of Earl Weaver answering this question. It has about 37 bleeps in it and he says:

"Who wants all those speedy little bleeping gnats out there bouncing around and getting picked off? Give me some big bleeper that steps up and hits a bleeping 3-run home run"

Thanks Trojan---I'll have to look that one up. I'd love to share that with my son's coach (in my dreams of course)who has compared our son's speed to the 5'7 center fielder and told him he wasn't as fast as him??---but the center fielder hits in the 8 hole too and ended the year with a .224BA compared to a .382BA....go figure! As of right now I think Power is winning out---any other takers want to be heard?

The Sanders posts sound like those of a parent of slowfooted power hitting firstbaseman---'taint a bad thing but don't knock the speedy guys who get on in front of the power hitters---without the sppedsters the power hitters RBI totals would be miniscule

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Originally posted by trojan-skipper:
Folks, there is a hilarious old radio out-take of Earl Weaver answering this question. It has about 37 bleeps in it and he says:

"Who wants all those speedy little bleeping gnats out there bouncing around and getting picked off? Give me some big bleeper that steps up and hits a bleeping 3-run home run"

But how does Earl explain the 2 runners on base he knocked in?

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Originally posted by Emanski's Heroes:
An example from this week about how a player's bat can carry him:

Pat Burrell just signed a deal for 2 years at $8M per season (considered by many to be a bargain price). I've seen him rated as a 20 runner and 20 fielder. He's a career .257 hitter (lots of Ks) and I'm not sure about his arm. But he's averaged roughly 30 homers per year, and he walks around 100 times per season. So he gets on base and hits with power. There's a reason they called him "Pat the Bat"

- slow as hell on the bases
- weak arm (DH now)
- can't cover more ground than his shadow (DH now)
- takes sixty called thirds a season
- hit .234 with RISP
- hit .183 with RISP w/2 outs
- hit 20 of his 33 homers with no one on base

The Phillies lifted him in the 7th inning a lot last year. He was that much of a liability in the field. What Burrell did accomplish last season was carry the team for a few weeks while Howard and Utley were slumping.

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there is a hilarious old radio out-take of Earl Weaver answering this question. It has about 37 bleeps in it

He's 23 bleeps behind Tom Lasorda's interview. Weaver always claimed baseball was about pitching, defense and three run homers. However, he did have Buford and Blair running the bases.

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He's 23 bleeps behind Tom Lasorda's interview

Do you mean the famous "Bevaqua" interview??? That one is priceless!!!!

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Originally posted by RJM:

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Originally posted by Emanski's Heroes:
An example from this week about how a player's bat can carry him:

Pat Burrell just signed a deal for 2 years at $8M per season (considered by many to be a bargain price). I've seen him rated as a 20 runner and 20 fielder. He's a career .257 hitter (lots of Ks) and I'm not sure about his arm. But he's averaged roughly 30 homers per year, and he walks around 100 times per season. So he gets on base and hits with power. There's a reason they called him "Pat the Bat"

- slow as hell on the bases
- weak arm (DH now)
- can't cover more ground than his shadow (DH now)
- takes sixty called thirds a season
- hit .234 with RISP
- hit .183 with RISP w/2 outs
- hit 20 of his 33 homers with no one on base

The Phillies lifted him in the 7th inning a lot last year. He was that much of a liability in the field. What Burrell did accomplish last season was carry the team for a few weeks while Howard and Utley were slumping.

Like you said, he's now a DH, so the arm and defense are mostly irrelevant. Called third strikes frustrate me the way they frustrate most fans, but it's really no different than striking out swinging. Sure, there is some value in just swinging and maybe getting lucky, but not enough to really make any difference.

I don't really think there is any evidence that the ability to hit with RISP is a skill. Here are Burrell's last five years BA W/RISP:

2004: .263 (.257 overall)
2005: .313 (.281 overall)
2006: .222 (.258 overall)
2007: .258 (.256 overall)
2008: .234 (.250 overall)

He's a .263 career hitter with RISP (with an OBP of .386). He's a career .244 hitter with two outs and RISP (.389 OBP). And lastly, I really don't think the fact that nobody could get on base in front of him before he hit a homer is his fault.

How about all the times he didn't drive in Rollins, Victorino, Utley and Howard batting in front of him?

Burrell has averaged over 90 RBI and close to 30 HRs and 30 doubles a year for his career. That is about all he does.

The only thing he does well is hit. If the only thing he could do was run fast, we wouldn’t know who he is. The way it is he will have made over $60 million as of this year. He is not the only one up there who does nothing more than hit. You won’t find any who do nothing except run fast.

TRhit--I would never knock the speedy guys ever...but how do you compare a center fielders speed with a 1st baseman? If I were a coach I would expect my CF to be faster then my 1st baseman too--not use it as critism. Otherwise my 1b would suddenly be my CF--- And no he is not slow of foot, just not as fast as the short guy---but working to improve that aspect of his "tools" of the game on a daily basis. The thing is that with the power hitters knocking these speedy guys around---Their speed is suddenly knocked down to a jog. I guess that is why it is a team sport--everyone contributes what they do best.

BOB


read my post again---I never made a comparison---just a statement

Speed is the most overrated tool in all sports except for the sprinting events in track & field. I'm not saying it doesn't have value, just that it is overrated.

There are only two things that get you to the Major Leagues. Being able to hit your way onto the bases and being able to stop guys from hitting their way onto the bases. Every other tool is subordinate to those(as PG said).

Unfortunately, scouts are enamuored with speed and get all glassy eyed when a kid runs a 6.3 60. It's almost like they won't get in trouble with their boss if they promote a fast kid regardless of his other abilities.

I don't think the scouts test enough for quickness and reflexes. These are crucial to a players success and seem to get overlooked. You don't have to be flat out fast to be able to keep up with the speed of the game.

Dear old Dad,

I am gonna let you in on a secret.

Speed is not overrated.

Nothing more beautiful than a CF running down balls from one gap to the other.

That will stop some guys from hitting their way onto the bases.

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It's almost like they won't get in trouble with their boss if they promote a fast kid regardless of his other abilities.

Yep, they will take that TALENT and try to develop the other skills.

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I don't think the scouts test enough for quickness and reflexes.

They do.

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These are crucial to a players success and seem to get overlooked.

They don't.

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You don't have to be flat out fast to be able to keep up with the speed of the game.

You do.

The change in the speed of the game at each level has been the most fascinating thing to observe.

Those big hitting first baseman aren't as fast as the centerfielders, but they ain't slow.

FormerObserver,

Speed may be beautiful but that's not relevant. Jim Edmunds has been one of the very best centerfielders and is beautiful to watch but he is hardly the fastest starting centerfielder. 65 SB's lifetime. And Gary Carter was an outfielder moved to catcher. He's proof that you don't have to be fast to be a great ballplayer.

The list is endless of average speed guys making it to the show. Even the slow guys who you say are fast even though they really aren't make it. Can you say Mo Vaughn?

The true speed of pro athletes is itself overrated. The general population thinks they are much faster than they really are.

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And Gary Carter was an outfielder moved to catcher.

So, that made him a slow catcher?

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The list is endless of average speed guys making it to the show.

I'm curious of what your "average speed" is in terms of 60 yard numbers.

I think that the perceptions of value to the game (speed vs. power) change as kids mature and the nature of the game changes.

I am of the opinion that in youth baseball and well into high school, it is easier for coaches to see and perceive the value of speed. There are few kids that can make a big impact with power alone. Also, as kids are younger, you can see kids "streching" hits not so much by speed alone, but on the ability to take advantage of defenses (either arm strength, defensive skills or the ability to get to a ball quick enough).

However, you get to college, you start to see the value of a power hitter. The kid that puts the ball off the fence regularly. The game changes as foot speed evens out as arm strenth takes away the advantage of the quicker kids.

It is also interesting to see how kids that have been "on the team" becuase they could leg out hits, start to either loose their impact or find out that the game requires more than just a good set of wheels.

DoD- Simply not true. If Carter had speed, he would have stayed in the outfield. Mo Vaughn DH'ed because he is slow and a defensive liability. Jim Edmonds was a 6.8 runner coming up- that's fast. Btw, stolen bases is not indicative of pure speed. Lots of teams in MLB simply think it's a low percentage play and they don't steal as much. Speed has become a much bigger priority as power production has dropped in the (alleged) post-steroid era. No, it's not the top tool priority but it definitely figures heavily into the equation.They wouldn't be running those 60's for scouts if it was immaterial.

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Originally posted by Dear old Dad:
FormerObserver,

Speed may be beautiful but that's not relevant. Jim Edmunds has been one of the very best centerfielders and is beautiful to watch but he is hardly the fastest starting centerfielder. 65 SB's lifetime. And Gary Carter was an outfielder moved to catcher. He's proof that you don't have to be fast to be a great ballplayer.

The list is endless of average speed guys making it to the show. Even the slow guys who you say are fast even though they really aren't make it. Can you say Mo Vaughn?

The true speed of pro athletes is itself overrated. The general population thinks they are much faster than they really are.

PG has it right, we have kid in the Northwest the scouts all fawn over, blinding speed, strong arm, but weak bat. I have seen this personally. But I know he is highly rated by the various showcases hes been too. Expected to be drafted high. There is no doubt the kid has exceptional athletic ability, but can he be taught to hit? In a few years this question will be answered, he'll either be the next BJ Upton or just another possibility that wasn't. Even catchers who have great catching skills are expected to hit their weight. Of course they can always be converted to pitcher.

I think in this arguement you have to separate just shear speed from speed that "plays". Our high school team has a good example of this. We have two guys who have almost the exact speed in a sprint. One who has run 6.4 60's at several Perfect game, college showcases, and major league tryout camps and has played select-travel ball since the age of 12 and played ball since he was 5. The other guy is an all area running back who only shows up for baseball when the high school season starts. The guy with baseball "instincts" steals 30-40 bases with maybe one caught stealing per season while the other guy steals 6-8 with 4 caught stealing. The guy who has speed that plays gets held to singles off the fence because the football speedster thinks he needs to tag up at first on lineshots that have the outfielders turned around and can only make it as far as second. The 4.4 forty football player lets every fly in front of him drop in and gappers--forget em--because he doesn't know how to apply his speed to baseball. The other guy has opposing teams and fans talking about him admiringly because he revs up the speed of the game itself and makes opponents pay for every ball that so much as bounces five or ten feet away. Every ground ball is a frantic race to try to nip him by half a step. Meanwhile the guy with no instincts stands around after his slide even as the ball goes bouncing away and then after a few beats of hesitation takes off and inveribly gets thrown out. Speed means very little with one guy but is a thing of beauty to watch with the other.

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Originally posted by ncball:
They wouldn't be running those 60's for scouts if it was immaterial.

I never said it was immaterial. I said it was overrated.


FormerObserver,

Not sure what you mean about "average 60 time" but my son is a catcher who runs a 6.9 sixty. He is right in the middle as far as how fast each player on his team is. I would bet that he would be in the middle third or slightly higher if compared to all the MLB catchers. I like that he doesn't clog the bases but he will never be stealing any. Since pop times are pretty close for D1 catchers and MLB catchers, I wold say the majority of MLB players run a 6.8 sixty or slower.

If so, then I am not impressed. I consider my son to be slow. I was much faster than him in my day and so were many, many softball players I played against. The difference is, none of the softball players could hit a baseball like him.