The really wonderful thing about baseball is that it isn't so cut and dried that you can select one thing like just speed or just power to to define what would make a winning ball club. A team full of Willie Tavaras's wouldn't win just as a team of Ryan Howard's probably wouldn't either. You get best results with a meshing of speed and power on offense. A balanced offense such as Tampa Bay's which had some great speed with at least two or three power guys(I count Upton as a power guy also because he was hindered by a sore shoulder most of the year) will produce plenty fo offense in tight or high scoring games. The Big Red Machine teams of the 1970's also had this elusive mix.
Ok I am obviously a speed guy and would build my team around speedy players but Three Bagger has nailed it on the head that you have to have a mix of speed and power. But as I read (and reread) through this thread one thing keeps popping out to me. When people talk about speedy players it's either directly said or inferred that they can't play the game. The only thing that they bring to the table is speed.
When I say I'm going to build my team around speed I'm going to go get guys who can play the game at a very fast pace. You're not going to find many guys who have power only. They may hit it a mile but they have to bring something else to the table - glove, arm, instincts - whatever.
Dear Old Dad you may just mean baseball but you said
So I'm going to assume you mean all sports and disagree with you. If speed was overrated then why did Urban Meyer say 4 years ago when he took over the University of Florida football team and say he was going to have the fastest team on the field offensively and defensively. I think he proved that speed with skill is deadly just like I'm saying speed with baseball skill is deadly.
If you don't have speed then you will be trying to catch the opponent everytime. Baseball is a sport that is a little different that arm strength can slow down a team some but if we really saw speedy guys force plays then now we must see if the defense can make a strong throw AND accurate throw.
I don't see the point in playing it safe with fast guys. Hit the ball and expect to take two everytime up. Only way to really do that is have speed.
*******EDITED********
Obviously I'm not going to take chances in EVERY situation.
When I say I'm going to build my team around speed I'm going to go get guys who can play the game at a very fast pace. You're not going to find many guys who have power only. They may hit it a mile but they have to bring something else to the table - glove, arm, instincts - whatever.
Dear Old Dad you may just mean baseball but you said
quote:Speed is the most overrated tool in all sports except for the sprinting events in track & field.
So I'm going to assume you mean all sports and disagree with you. If speed was overrated then why did Urban Meyer say 4 years ago when he took over the University of Florida football team and say he was going to have the fastest team on the field offensively and defensively. I think he proved that speed with skill is deadly just like I'm saying speed with baseball skill is deadly.
If you don't have speed then you will be trying to catch the opponent everytime. Baseball is a sport that is a little different that arm strength can slow down a team some but if we really saw speedy guys force plays then now we must see if the defense can make a strong throw AND accurate throw.
I don't see the point in playing it safe with fast guys. Hit the ball and expect to take two everytime up. Only way to really do that is have speed.
*******EDITED********
Obviously I'm not going to take chances in EVERY situation.
Shrink the field of play. You do that with speed , power and arm strength. The more of this you have the better your team will be. Baseball teams are built around all facets of the game. If you could find 8 guys that could all fly , all hit for power and all had cannons for arms you would have them all out there. Most power guys are not speed guys. Most speed guys are not power guys. If I had my way all of the guys would be burners , hit for a high average and have tremendous power. But the fact is your not going to have an entire team like that and your very fortunate if you have one guy like that.
Whats more important for a CF? Speed or power? I say speed. Whats more important for a 1B speed or power? I say power. So the game dictates what posistions each tool is most important at. Speed changes the game. Power can turn a game around in one pitch. And arm strength shrinks the field of play. So they are both equally important.
Whats more important for a CF? Speed or power? I say speed. Whats more important for a 1B speed or power? I say power. So the game dictates what posistions each tool is most important at. Speed changes the game. Power can turn a game around in one pitch. And arm strength shrinks the field of play. So they are both equally important.
Anybody would take a guy with a plus arm, plus bat, and plus power over a sheer speed guy, but I would take a team of Upton's with a sore shoulder
without his power, Ellsbury, and guys like that over a team of Dave Kingman's any day. I admire a long homerun as much as anybody but the player you described is a five tool player so anyone would take.
without his power, Ellsbury, and guys like that over a team of Dave Kingman's any day. I admire a long homerun as much as anybody but the player you described is a five tool player so anyone would take.
Oh and by the way I'm kind of getting up there in age and saw Willie Mays in his prime and if anybody's trying to make somebody the next Willie Mays their wasting their time. And I'll say this even as an admirer of Ken Griffey Jr. Don't know if we'll ever see another Willie.
wayback, jr. is living this battle now.
His college team is loaded with hitters (7th in D1 scoring last year). He historically has been a 3B, but also plays OF. Team has a pre-season All-American at 3B. So, he not seeing time there.
His numbers as a freshman were .338 avg, 1.017 OPS. He typically hits a HR every 13 AB's, and continued to do that in fall (he has a 6.9 sixty). He is competing for LF with a speedy kid who hit.298/.792, but 23-27 in steal atttempts (6.4 sixty).
The easy solution is bump speedy to CF. But, there is another Pre-season All-American there. Just to make the battle tougher is a RF who was a JUCO honorable mention All-American last year.
So, LF is a classic power vs speed battle for the upcoming season.
Speedy got the majority of AB's last year as wayback was going through the freshman ropes.
The way I see it, run production by the power guy exceeds the benefit of the speedy guy in the OF. His run production per AB is more than triple speedy. Speedy may save an occasional gapper from landing, but is not going to make up the difference in run production.
It may come down to what's lacking, or at a surplus at the other spots in the lineup.
I'd start the power guy, and save speedy for the late inning pinch run in a tight game or use as a defensive replacement. But, I haven't been asked to fill in the lineup, so we'll see if the coach feels he'd rather have power or speed.
His college team is loaded with hitters (7th in D1 scoring last year). He historically has been a 3B, but also plays OF. Team has a pre-season All-American at 3B. So, he not seeing time there.
His numbers as a freshman were .338 avg, 1.017 OPS. He typically hits a HR every 13 AB's, and continued to do that in fall (he has a 6.9 sixty). He is competing for LF with a speedy kid who hit.298/.792, but 23-27 in steal atttempts (6.4 sixty).
The easy solution is bump speedy to CF. But, there is another Pre-season All-American there. Just to make the battle tougher is a RF who was a JUCO honorable mention All-American last year.
So, LF is a classic power vs speed battle for the upcoming season.
Speedy got the majority of AB's last year as wayback was going through the freshman ropes.
The way I see it, run production by the power guy exceeds the benefit of the speedy guy in the OF. His run production per AB is more than triple speedy. Speedy may save an occasional gapper from landing, but is not going to make up the difference in run production.
It may come down to what's lacking, or at a surplus at the other spots in the lineup.
I'd start the power guy, and save speedy for the late inning pinch run in a tight game or use as a defensive replacement. But, I haven't been asked to fill in the lineup, so we'll see if the coach feels he'd rather have power or speed.
I understand that coaches look at what is best for their team and their philosophy. However if we are talking about scouting...
Can anyone give an example of a player drafted in the early rounds and paid a lot of money that could not do anything other than run a good 60? This is a big misconception, there are many very fast runners who never get a sniff during the draft. That is because they only have that one tool.
That said speed is not over rated. It is rated just as it should be. If there are two players… Both with above average fielding, throwing and hitting tools, but one of them runs a 6.4 60 while the other runs a 7.4 60… Who would you pick? 2 tenths of a second equals approximately one full stride. One second equates to 5 strides. Surely everyone can figure out how much difference 5 full strides can make both offensively and defensively.
Problem is… If a player can not hit, his speed doesn’t play! Slugger, do you really believe the MLB scouting departments just throw out money to fast runners who can’t do anything else?
I agree that speed is not the most important thing, but at the same time, it is very important. There are positions in the line up for those who can really hit, but don’t run fast. Not much room in the line up for the guy who can really run, but can’t do anything else.
Think I know exactly who the player “pop up hitter dad” is talking about. You’d have to do a lot of projecting to think he is going to hit. Even more to think he will ever hit for any power. He runs and throws off the charts and is very athletic. It will be interesting to see where he goes in the draft, if at all. He does have two plus tools and one average tool so scouts do need to follow him. IMO.
A scout that signs a 6.3 runner who can’t do anything else is not playing it safe. He is risking his livelihood. Geez, why not just go to the track meets and draft the sprinters. I don’t understand the total disrespect for those that scout for a living.
Eric Hosmer, Pedro Alvarez, Kyle Skipworth, Buster Posey, Yonder Alonso, Justin Smoak, Brett Wallace, David Cooper, Ike Davis, Reece Havens, Allen Dykstra, Lonnie Chisenhall, Conor Gillaspie, Ryan Flaherty, Jaff Decker all have something in common… They were first round picks last year and all are “below” average runners. Some of the above are well below average runners! In fact there were very few plus runners drafted in the first round. The only two I can think of are Tim Bekham and Jemile Weeks and they both have amazing tools in addition to running ability.
Josh Vitters, Matt Wieters, Prince Fielder, etc. we could go on and on with first round guys who did not run well, but can really hit. Hitters go first in the draft, not runners, unless it’s a runner that can hit!
Can anyone give an example of a player drafted in the early rounds and paid a lot of money that could not do anything other than run a good 60? This is a big misconception, there are many very fast runners who never get a sniff during the draft. That is because they only have that one tool.
That said speed is not over rated. It is rated just as it should be. If there are two players… Both with above average fielding, throwing and hitting tools, but one of them runs a 6.4 60 while the other runs a 7.4 60… Who would you pick? 2 tenths of a second equals approximately one full stride. One second equates to 5 strides. Surely everyone can figure out how much difference 5 full strides can make both offensively and defensively.
Problem is… If a player can not hit, his speed doesn’t play! Slugger, do you really believe the MLB scouting departments just throw out money to fast runners who can’t do anything else?
I agree that speed is not the most important thing, but at the same time, it is very important. There are positions in the line up for those who can really hit, but don’t run fast. Not much room in the line up for the guy who can really run, but can’t do anything else.
Think I know exactly who the player “pop up hitter dad” is talking about. You’d have to do a lot of projecting to think he is going to hit. Even more to think he will ever hit for any power. He runs and throws off the charts and is very athletic. It will be interesting to see where he goes in the draft, if at all. He does have two plus tools and one average tool so scouts do need to follow him. IMO.
A scout that signs a 6.3 runner who can’t do anything else is not playing it safe. He is risking his livelihood. Geez, why not just go to the track meets and draft the sprinters. I don’t understand the total disrespect for those that scout for a living.
Eric Hosmer, Pedro Alvarez, Kyle Skipworth, Buster Posey, Yonder Alonso, Justin Smoak, Brett Wallace, David Cooper, Ike Davis, Reece Havens, Allen Dykstra, Lonnie Chisenhall, Conor Gillaspie, Ryan Flaherty, Jaff Decker all have something in common… They were first round picks last year and all are “below” average runners. Some of the above are well below average runners! In fact there were very few plus runners drafted in the first round. The only two I can think of are Tim Bekham and Jemile Weeks and they both have amazing tools in addition to running ability.
Josh Vitters, Matt Wieters, Prince Fielder, etc. we could go on and on with first round guys who did not run well, but can really hit. Hitters go first in the draft, not runners, unless it’s a runner that can hit!
quote:Originally posted by OLDSLUGGER8:
My comments on this subject relate to the "didn't do much baseball-wise " speedsters" that scouts are enamored with.
We've all seen it, and most of these are HS kids. Take a good look at some recent rookie ball stats the past few years. Mendoza line batting averages, no power, and 50% or greater strikeout percentages.
Poor, I mean NO other baseball skills, noodle arms, but "say hey", he can run fast?
What a waste of the draft process.
Yeah because there have never been any power hitters who were wasted draft picks. It's always the speed guys who are wastes.
So you would turn down a Jimmy Rollins if you had the chance to get him?
Remember the commercial on TV several years ago "chicks dig the long ball"?
Need I say more?
Need I say more?
quote:Originally posted by fillsfan:
When talking about speed and how fast someone, especially an outfielder, is or should be I have an equation.
"The further you hit it, the slower you can be."
The highest paid MLB position players are the power hitters who drive in a lot of runs. That should be a barometer of what is important for teams. On offense it's all about scoring runs.
But, their is nothing better to watch than a really fast player hitting a triple or scoring from first on gapper. How about scoring from 2nd on a sac bunt.
That was fun.
depends on the position you are playing. example is that a 3rd basemen ought to be a power hitter. does not need to be as quick as a SS, but should have a better "stick" than a SS. 3rd basemen do NOT need to be tall as rumored here on this web-site. That is total bunk. Many 3rd basemen in D1 are 5'10" and 5'11" and play majore D1 at 3rd base and can hit with power, light out. Don't listen to the bunk.
quote:Originally posted by switchitter:quote:Originally posted by fillsfan:
When talking about speed and how fast someone, especially an outfielder, is or should be I have an equation.
"The further you hit it, the slower you can be."
The highest paid MLB position players are the power hitters who drive in a lot of runs. That should be a barometer of what is important for teams. On offense it's all about scoring runs.
But, their is nothing better to watch than a really fast player hitting a triple or scoring from first on gapper. How about scoring from 2nd on a sac bunt.
That was fun.
depends on the position you are playing. example is that a 3rd basemen ought to be a power hitter. does not need to be as quick as a SS, but should have a better "stick" than a SS. 3rd basemen do NOT need to be tall as rumored here on this web-site. That is total bunk. Many 3rd basemen in D1 are 5'10" and 5'11" and play college at major D1's at 3rd base and can hit with power, lights out. Don't listen to the bunk.
So many times in the last ten years, teams built on power with little speed such as the Yankees and Oakland A's have not done well in the playoffs waiting for the three run homer that never comes. Speed never takes a day off. The Yankee teams that won the Series in the late 90's and early 2000 actually had some speed in a young Jeter, Soriano, and Williams. Now that their pretty much living by power alone, their offense is prone to going through run scoring droughts every now and then. In the playoffs, elite pitching sometimes stops the all or nothing guys.There have been teams that won with virtually no power such as the Cardinals of the 80's and Dodgers of the 60's. Naturally the speed guys have to be onbase percentage guys to have the maximum effect. Watch without steroids, as power plays less of a role, there will once again be classic leadoff batters like Henderson and Raines who walk, hit the gaps and run like rabbits. Truthfully during the steroid era that type of guy became almost non existant. Whwn you could bury a team in a barrage of longballs it didn't make much sense to run or even put a priority on team speed.
Coach2709- Regarding Rollins, he also popped 30 HR's in 2007 as well as displays Golden Glove defense. He's the best player I've been fortunate to have in my program which includes the aforementioned Burrell, Brett Wallace, and David Cooper from this thread. The thing about Rollins is he truly makes every player better around him. Part of that is making things happen with his legs.
Yes Rollins hit 30 in 07 and 25 the year before but other than that his high is 14. So do you consider him a power hitter or a speed guy? I say he's a speed guy and I would love to have him and players similar to him on my team.
My point with Rollins is he's a speed guy and you need him.
My point with Rollins is he's a speed guy and you need him.
Xavier Avery is a high school guy who went in the 2nd round in 2008 to the Orioles. Here's a guy who, if he didn't have 80 speed, would not have been drafted in the first 20 rounds imo. They are banking on this guy to be the prototypical leadoff hitter.
I consider him a great all-around player. What separates him from other outstanding players is he can win games with his legs- offensively and defensively. The difference between Rollins and other fast guys is that he will adjust his game accordingly and still be great as he matures and loses his top-end speed.
Another part of this equation is being able to use your speed. When Rollins was 16, we had a kid named Ashanti Davison who ran a 6.3-6.4 in the 60. He played in the minors leagues for five years because he could run. The difference is that he didn't know how to use his speed. Rollins was a 6.5-6.6 but I guarantee you that if you lined both those guys out at second, Rollins would score ahead of the other guy. He would get a better jump, make a better turn, and maintain his speed over the faster, straight-ahead runner.
Another part of this equation is being able to use your speed. When Rollins was 16, we had a kid named Ashanti Davison who ran a 6.3-6.4 in the 60. He played in the minors leagues for five years because he could run. The difference is that he didn't know how to use his speed. Rollins was a 6.5-6.6 but I guarantee you that if you lined both those guys out at second, Rollins would score ahead of the other guy. He would get a better jump, make a better turn, and maintain his speed over the faster, straight-ahead runner.
NC Ball these are the stories and stats I think are important when talking about speed vs. power. This shows a speed guy can play while most of these posts are talking about how speed guys can't play the game. Some speed guys can't play at all just like there are power guys who can't play the game.
Once again you need a mixture of speed and power but don't discount speed.
Once again you need a mixture of speed and power but don't discount speed.
quote:3rd basemen do NOT need to be tall as rumored here on this web-site. That is total bunk.
switchhitter, I must have missed that rumor here on this website.
quote:The Yankee teams that won the Series in the late 90's and early 2000 actually had some speed in a young Jeter, Soriano, and Williams. Now that their pretty much living by power alone, their offense is prone to going through run scoring droughts every now and then.
Three Bagger,
I know what you mean, but in 2000 the Yankees were world champions.
In 2000 they had 99 SBs and 205 HRs
In 2008 they had 118 SBs and 180 HRs
In each of the last three years they had more stolen bases, than any of the previous four years.
ncball, I disagree regarding Xavier Avery. He has a chance to be a good major league hitter. From junior to senior year he improved as much as any we have seen. He creates excellent bat speed and stays under control. He also has a playable arm and has a chance to be a plus defensive outfielder and yes he can fly, but he has more than speed to offer. Very similar to Denard Span except with much more power potential. In fact, he very much reminded us of Carl Crawford when Crawford was in high school. The University of Georgia lost a good one to the draft.
One thing that would be hard to argue... The great players who are speed players do more than just run.
I was out of town for a few days and thought this thread had died down a bit--this has been fun.
I still think that we all agree to disagree--everyone has their opinion on what wins games. The fact is ..baseball is a station to station game---but if you can't hit the ball then who cares how fast you are. Join the track team and you can be fast all day long.
A natural swing cannot be taught-it is God given. But, with a little hard work you can shave a few off a 60.
The long ball hitters are the ones we count on to win games and talk about for years to come. I won't count the speedy guys out---you need them for your RBI count
If you look at MLB scouts criteria for a recruit---#1 CAN THEY HIT #2 CAN THEY HIT WITH POWER #3 IS SPEED...Need we say more?
I still think that we all agree to disagree--everyone has their opinion on what wins games. The fact is ..baseball is a station to station game---but if you can't hit the ball then who cares how fast you are. Join the track team and you can be fast all day long.
A natural swing cannot be taught-it is God given. But, with a little hard work you can shave a few off a 60.
The long ball hitters are the ones we count on to win games and talk about for years to come. I won't count the speedy guys out---you need them for your RBI count
If you look at MLB scouts criteria for a recruit---#1 CAN THEY HIT #2 CAN THEY HIT WITH POWER #3 IS SPEED...Need we say more?quote:If you look at MLB scouts criteria for a recruit---#1 CAN THEY HIT #2 CAN THEY HIT WITH POWER #3 IS SPEED...Need we say more?
You lost me. Are you saying we should eliminate the other two of the five baseball tools?
The post says speed vs POWER, where does it say a player with speed can't hit the ball?
quote:Originally posted by coach2709:
Dear Old Dad you may just mean baseball but you saidquote:Speed is the most overrated tool in all sports except for the sprinting events in track & field.
So I'm going to assume you mean all sports and disagree with you. If speed was overrated then why did Urban Meyer say 4 years ago when he took over the University of Florida football team and say he was going to have the fastest team on the field offensively and defensively. I think he proved that speed with skill is deadly just like I'm saying speed with baseball skill is deadly.
Coach2709,
Speed is more overrated in football than it is in baseball. The best players are almost never the fastest. Check the combine times of the best players at each position. They are almost always slower than people think. I guess the most obvious example would be Jerry Rice. The greatest receiver ever ran at best a 4.5 40. The NFL always seems to be raving about the next speed guy who is going to revolutionize the game. It doesn't happen.
The NFL has always tried to convert track stars to wide receiver but in the last 15 to 20 years the NFL has been trying to bring speed to the QB position. Every year we hear about the next guy who will revolutionize the QB position. It hasn't happened and it never will because speed is only valuable to a QB as a peripheral tool.
Let me add that football is also a sport where you can't be slow. You don't have to be a burner but you must have enough speed(relative to your position) to participate.
Let's look at the running back position. Adian Peterson is very fast and lead the league in rushing. But Michael Turner was second and he is not fast at all.
So a player, in my opinion, must be fast enough to at least step onto the field but after that talent will dictate who succeeds.
Since you brought up the Florida Gators I guess I can mention Boise St. They beat a much, MUCH faster team in Oklahoma two years ago. That is why a coach must find the talent first. I wonder how many of the Florida players were All Americans in High School compared to other schools. I think it's safe to say that Meyer is getting the best talent as well as his desired speed.
As Vince Lombardi said, "Football is blocking and tackling, everything else is mythology".
quote:Originally posted by Bob Sanders:
I was out of town for a few days and thought this thread had died down a bit--this has been fun.
I still think that we all agree to disagree--everyone has their opinion on what wins games. The fact is ..baseball is a station to station game---but if you can't hit the ball then who cares how fast you are. Join the track team and you can be fast all day long.
A natural swing cannot be taught-it is God given. But, with a little hard work you can shave a few off a 60.
The long ball hitters are the ones we count on to win games and talk about for years to come. I won't count the speedy guys out---you need them for your RBI count
Nice way to "agree to disagree" by telling us how right you are one last time. I also like how you started this thread by asking us our opinion on speed and power and then tell us we are wrong because some of us like speed.
As for this whole thread and topic I'm out. It's amazing to me how you power guys just say and think that fast guys can't play. So let's just turn baseball into beer league softball and move on.
quote:everyone has their opinion on what wins games.
I think what wins games is the never ending battle to improve in all areas.
If you have power, you better get working on speed.
If you have speed, you better be working on more power.
Even players who seem to have it all, will probably be the first ones to tell you that they have multiple areas they need to improve on.
It takes a team continually striving to be the best to win, not one ability VS another.
JMHO
http://sports.yahoo.com/mlb/stats/byposition?pos=SS&con...son_2008&qualified=1
You can have some fun with stats.
You can have some fun with stats.
Neither talent is mutually exclusive of the other.
All players would love to have both.
But, if you are going to have only one plus tool it seems it would be better to have power over speed. IMO.
All players would love to have both.
But, if you are going to have only one plus tool it seems it would be better to have power over speed. IMO.
One of the best things about baseball....
There are quite a few guys making a pretty decent living playing ball that don't have either speed or power. Of course most of those guys do a pretty good job of throwing strikes.
There are quite a few guys making a pretty decent living playing ball that don't have either speed or power. Of course most of those guys do a pretty good job of throwing strikes.
OK2GO---They have actually both Speed and power...
How FAST does he throw?(power)...well.. he was clocked at 95mph(speed)
He just stays in one general area when he does it
How FAST does he throw?(power)...well.. he was clocked at 95mph(speed)
He just stays in one general area when he does it
Bob
better learn the definitions of speed and power real quick
better learn the definitions of speed and power real quick
I would love to know the average speed for each position. D1 to majors.
My son probably had slightly above ave speed in HS, but is now mostly riding pine in college because he is not as fast as the others at his position. He is probably equal in hitting, plus in the power and arm categories.
But this is just one team, another and it could possibly be the opposite. As others have said, it can be the coaching philosophies.
My son probably had slightly above ave speed in HS, but is now mostly riding pine in college because he is not as fast as the others at his position. He is probably equal in hitting, plus in the power and arm categories.
But this is just one team, another and it could possibly be the opposite. As others have said, it can be the coaching philosophies.
TRht--
I know the definition of speed and power---I was just switching gears a little with the "pitchers" comment made by OK2Go.
You have never said "that players arm is week?" does that not refer to his power behind the throw? mph-- does that not refer to speed in everyday conversation...
Think outside of the box a little TRhit and keep the personal attacks in the box---please.
I know the definition of speed and power---I was just switching gears a little with the "pitchers" comment made by OK2Go.
You have never said "that players arm is week?" does that not refer to his power behind the throw? mph-- does that not refer to speed in everyday conversation...
Think outside of the box a little TRhit and keep the personal attacks in the box---please.
Bob
Not a personal attack just an opbservation of your lack of baseball knowledge---you started this thread regading speed and power regarding hitters--now you begin to get thoughts opposite to your so you want to switch tracks--LOL
Not a personal attack just an opbservation of your lack of baseball knowledge---you started this thread regading speed and power regarding hitters--now you begin to get thoughts opposite to your so you want to switch tracks--LOL