Not a new thing and I've seen it before. Visiting high school team loses a game they probably should have won. Too many errors cost them the win. Coach takes them down to left field and lines up for sprints. One kid fell out early and was down on the ground (maybe cramps/maybe asthma - I don't know). Another kid collapsed later. Parents screaming at coach to stop the running. Both kids o.k., load the bus and head out.
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First thing is parents need to keep their mouth shut (as if they ever would).
Second, I have expressed how "inappropriate" it is to have a team run gassers after a loss. Sends the wrong message imo. Now, when I coached a HS summer/fall team, we would run sprints after the game for conditioning, not punishment. Different situation though. After a spring varsity game, I feel why not run a full on practice and not just run the team? I know teams who hit the weight rooms after a game, and I have no issue with that either. The run for punishment tactic is simply the coach's way of enforcing his power over a team that may or may not understand the reason(s) for their punishment.
I ran in HS and it never hurt me. Some teams/players are motivated by different things. With some a pat on the back will do, others need a swift kick in the rear.
Though it might be frowned upon today, if you had someone messing up and the team payed the price, rest assured the team would resolve it sooner or later.
Mine was win or lose. I ran for conditioning factors considering we only played on Saturdays and held practice only two days during the week.
Ever see "Miracle"? Seemed to work OK for the US Olympic hockey team
Seriously, though.. sometimes we run after a game because we just don't get enough conditioning during the practice week. I know, our planning could be better.
But also, I always hear about how coaches don't approve of running as punishment because conditioning should not be viewed as such and I understand that. But, when the situation calls for a "punishment" type of message, what options do you use as a coaching staff? Of course, with an individual, you can have him sit, but what about when the message is to the team? I'd love to hear good ideas/solutions, Coach Mills and others...
Our HS coach has all pitchers who threw that game run two miles after the game, win or lose, no matter how many innings they pitched.
Not a new thing and I've seen it before. Visiting high school team loses a game they probably should have won. Too many errors cost them the win. Coach takes them down to left field and lines up for sprints. One kid fell out early and was down on the ground (maybe cramps/maybe asthma - I don't know). Another kid collapsed later. Parents screaming at coach to stop the running. Both kids o.k., load the bus and head out.
How many sprints we talking about? If I'm the home team and they are in the outfield running that many I'm shutting the lights off and going home.
How often do they run after games? If it's every time or there's a pattern for this then no harm no foul. It's just conditioning.
If it was as punishment for losing the game then we can have a discussion. I'm not a big fan of doing this after a game just to punish them. Chances are it may get out of hand because the coach is ticked off.
What caused the errors is another question?
1 - if they are caused because they are not very good then don't run them - instruct them.
2 - if they are caused because they had a lack of focus and it's becoming a trend - get their attention and maybe do that by running the heck out of them.
One year I had a talented team play very bad two or three games in a row. Next practice you thought we were preparing for a marathon. We didn't throw, field or hit a single ball for an hour and half. After it was over I told them there were consequences for not showing up mentally ready. If losing isn't a big enough motivator to be focused then this should be. If it were just my starters not focusing I would have handled it with the bench but it was team wide. Subs I put in made mistakes they shouldn't have, relief pitchers couldn't get ahead of hitters when they were good enough. It was a team wide lack of focus and after that practice we ran off something like 7 wins in a row and won our district.
Running has to be something that conditions players. Running can be used as a motivator to get attention. But running shouldn't be a punishment because they can't play.
I'm not sure the sprints, in an of themselves, was the issue. It was late, the kids had a 40 min. bus ride back to the school, on a school night, etc... This kind of irritated the parents and there was some general grumbling.
The first kid pulled up, and held his stomach or chest, then went down and stayed there. A couple of trainers looked after him. Not sure if he was having an asthma issue or stomach cramps. The rest kept running.
But the second kid to go down was a straight, face first collapse into the turf. Because of where he was and where the coaches were, the parents saw him drop (literally drop) before the coaches realized he was down. The moms started screaming and you can imagine the scene. Coaches and trainers rushing to his aid, the rest of the kids stopped, moms screaming at the coach from the stands, etc... After a brief period, he got up and eventually made his way to the bus with the others.
I'm not sure if the amount of running was extreme, or too much, as I really wasn't paying attention. I looked up and saw the first kid down, and saw the second go down like he had been knocked out. In the end, everyone was fine.
There was a point the coach was trying to make. But, it definitely got lost in the shuffle.
This is what makes me wonder about what was really happening. If you run them until they collapse then that is going to take a large number of sprints. I don't blame parents on this because it wasn't the time or the place to do this. But I've also seen kids who are drama kings who will "have" an asthma attack or collapse because they "ran" so hard.
I don't know these kids so that may not be the case but it's a possibility. Once again if they are like this then after a game is not the time to pick this battle. Practice is the time to teach them to suck it up and play the way they should.
But in order to run enough for people to collapse would probably have them out there long enough for you to notice.
Interesting situation.
I can count on one hand the time I have to do "punishment running" after the game, and it was for behavior issues.
This year during our second round of district play we have started running for mental mistakes and then during our post game huddle we talk as a team on what the correct play should have been. Examples from last nights game.....missed sign, runner at second not running on ground ball behind, etc. It has had a positive effect on our team. It has become a competition to play smart (aka. no poles...1 pole for each mental mistake). The players on the team are recognizing when others make a mental error as well as themselves. It definitely has caused them to pay more attention to what is being taught and talk about the game.
Win or lose my sons HS team runs, never to the point of blowing chowder or collapse, just moderate sprints as a team. There has to be some context here.......... Some coaches can be real tools but parents are at times no better.
When a team isn't mentally ready for a game, the coach should look in the mirror for the reason.
many years ago i remember having to do a punishment run after one of our JUCO games, we hadn't taken the loss very serious and we probably acting like clowns on the van ride home....the punishment run was in a Burger King parking lot, lap after lap, thakfully it was pretty late, and the workers were pretty cool, they were giving us water out the drive-thru...lol, not one player complained because we knew why we were running....ah, the good ole days...haha
a....and nobody called their parents to complain either
When a team isn't mentally ready for a game, the coach should look in the mirror for the reason.
I would say when a team isn't physically ready for a game, the coach is to blame. Mentally, on the other hand, is a tough call. There are many factors to go into that one...
A friend's son played for a famous coach at a ranked college program who made the team run after a DH loss until every player puked. He told them not to puke on his field. He placed one garbage on the field for the entire team to use. This was fourteen years ago. I'll bet it would get him fired today.
My son's high school once filibustered until the player were bored out of there minds. The waiting parents weren't too pleased to wait until after 7pm on a school night for a game that ended before 6pm.
Every sprint rep run with the right effort is a chance to build speed and conditioning. Whether the sprint is run for "punishment" or some other motivation is really pretty irrelevant. If a boy has a speed tool, this is just another chance to build/nuture it and they should take advantage. And yeah, the parents should back off.
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Now that I think about it, most hs coaches spend an extremely large amount of time reflecting and evaluating the things they do to help their teams win.
I define mentally ready as: focused and hard-working throughout the game regardless of the score (results).
The bell curve dictates that 10% of HS coaches will be horrible at optimizing their team's mental readiness; 80% will be mediocre; 10% will be excellent.
Key quality of the 10% at the top: charismatic leadership.
If post-game punishment sprints contribute to that, so be it.
But in most instances, I doubt it.
My youngest is a Wrestler who happens to play baseball. A BIG part of wrestling is conditioning.
The wrestling coach, depending on the weeks scheduled matches runs suicides till some kids were about to puke. It was not about punishment it was about conditioning. If you can get a kid into the third period and you are better conditioned you will probaly win.
Well baseball season follows wrestling with no break, in fact son always misses try outs and first few weeks of practice.
I always had to smile when the coach would have the kids run sprints after a game whether it was for punishment or conditioning. My son and the few other wrestlers would just laugh after all it was done, because it was nothing compared to what they went through in wrestling. I have heard a couple of them tell their team mates, You think this is tough, come to a wrestling practice some time.
Players and parents need to quit being babies!! Sometimes players and teams need some discipline. Nothing wrong with that in my book.
Everyone should play, no one should fail, everything should be fair, rich should pay for the poor - these are the ideas that are making this country soft. Like I said, sometimes discipline is necessary. Nothing wrong with running. Being in better shape is a byproduct. I guarantee, the kids knew they deserved it. Work to be better, earn what you get. You don't work, you don't earn. You don't perform, you don't play. You are out of a game mentally, you get to run. It's the way it should be. It builds character.
JMHO.
Son's HS team ran sprints after every game, win or lose. Just something the coach did and it was usually never more then 5 or so. Somehow there always seemed to be a few extra after a loss...
Worked for Herb Brooks.
Pansy parents.
I was thinking the same thing.
The amount of running I did in baseball practice was a joke compared with what we did to condition for basketball. I'd bet it was the same in this instance unless they were out there for hours.
While I'd not think twice about getting involved as a parent if I saw a coach physically abusing a kid, making a team run(regardless of the reason)is nothing a parent should get involved with.
freddy you seem to disagree with me for doing this, oh well. All I can say is it is working for us. BTW our players are in good enough shape that running one pole after a game is nothing but a simple reminder.
I define mentally ready as: focused and hard-working throughout the game regardless of the score (results).
The bell curve dictates that 10% of HS coaches will be horrible at optimizing their team's mental readiness; 80% will be mediocre; 10% will be excellent.
Key quality of the 10% at the top: charismatic leadership.
If post-game punishment sprints contribute to that, so be it.
But in most instances, I doubt it.
Please send source for these stats.
I define mentally ready as: focused and hard-working throughout the game regardless of the score (results).
The bell curve dictates that 10% of HS coaches will be horrible at optimizing their team's mental readiness; 80% will be mediocre; 10% will be excellent.
Key quality of the 10% at the top: charismatic leadership.
If post-game punishment sprints contribute to that, so be it.
But in most instances, I doubt it.
Please send reference to these stats.
No one is rating all the high school and travel coaches across the county. Its a standard philosophy regarding the Bell Curve relating to anything. I might disagree with the terminology of mediocre. I doubt I was in the top 10% of coaches. I'm wasn't a Coach May. But I was good. I wasn't mediocre. The Bell Curve might be better described as there's the top 10% who are the best, the bottom 10% who are not good coaches and everyone else is somewhere inbetween.
Our Varsity team does sprints after every WIN and gets a verbal beat down after every LOSS, not sure if there is a definitive "text-book" consensus on what is appropriate, but I certainly agree that every team and situation is different.
If they were all the same then every coach would be coaching from the same "imaginary" baseball handbook/bible and this thread would not be necessary.
To comment or judge this particular situation without being there and without more information would be premature and inappropriate ...
... I have just described the fundamental issues with the majority of parental disagreements with HS baseball coaches - lack of information and perspective (by the parents).
When I was in high school, it was normal for us to do conditioning immediately after a game. We'd have other teams sit in their dugout after a game and just be happy our coach was not theirs! We'd win 10-0 and condition immediately after a game.
Now our coach has moved on from that and immediately after a game the players attack the field. The pitchers go hit their conditioning workouts. The pitching coach has a 7-day program and they each are on different schedules. The players spend about 40-60 minutes after a game doing work whether it's field work, conditioning, or a little extra skill work.. we've adapted that from one of our local school who has a very successful past..
freddy you seem to disagree with me for doing this, oh well. All I can say is it is working for us. BTW our players are in good enough shape that running one pole after a game is nothing but a simple reminder.
I don't disagree. I like sprints. I like conditioning. I have no problem whatsoever with puking or fainting.
FWIW - my son plays for a DII JUCO. We went to see them play at an away game series (was actually closer than a home series, but I digress....). Son's team won each game and after each game, we noticed the "home" team running sprints. Now whether it was because they lost or it's just something they do after a game was not easy to ascertain.
Back in ancient days when I played HS football, we had to run suicides at the end of practice - especially as he worked on getting us in shape for the season. Start at the goal line - run to the 10 yd line and back, then to the 20 yd line and back and so on. What that team ran as sprints doesn't even begin to compare to the suicides we ran.........
And in honor of Herb.....
Again! Whistle! Again!...........
About 2 years ago I started having my son run after any game he pitched in. A few minutes running followed by stretching really help his arm recovery and he felt better. Last summer his teammates started joining him and eventually they would run after every game and practice. This year, the 9th graders went for runs after every practice without the coaches asking them. The coaching staff likes the idea. Now if we can get rid of the snow so the teams can get some games in.
I doubt many college teams ever depended more on winning games by running than ours. We set the all time national small college record for stolen bases. We had one player steal 100 bases in 109 attempts.
I doubt if any team ever worked harder at running. Nearly all the running we did in practice was geared to improving each players running ability. Most serious conditioning was done preseason. Never would we use running in any way as a form of punishment because we wanted our players to enjoy the running game rather than hate running.
This philosophy might not be for everyone, but it worked for us. Kids love to take BP, most will always want to stay in there and take a couple extra swings. Now if you want to cause someone to hate hitting... Make them stay in there and swing until their hands are bleeding every day. Players do not excel at the things they hate. Obviously there is a reason not to punish a pitcher by making him throw until his arm goes numb. So why would anyone think punishment by running would make someone a better runner.
Not talking about conditioning here, but we tried hard to have fun and have a purpose with most every running drill we did. We wanted our players to enjoy running, not hate running. Players tend to do the things they enjoy much better than the the things they do to get punished.
After every game we would meet and go over every mistake, every note that the coaching staff had made during the game. These were group discussions with a goal of eliminating mistakes. Winning or losing didn't change the routine. Not once did we ever talk about physical errors in these discussions. Never would we run sprints after a game. Our pitchers did run after they pitched, but not because of any performance reasons. Running past the point of getting exhausted causes break down in technique, just like throwing or hitting does once the player is exhausted. It's simply not a good practice routine. Once again, not talking about conditioning here.
Other coaches might do things differently and be very successful. There is always different ways to go about reaching the goal. But I would have to disagree with any coach that runs players until they throw up just because he is mad and wants to punish his players or show his power. Coaches need to figure out what they can do to be a better coach so they can help their player perform better. In other words, they need to look into the mirror. If the team runs until they drop, why isn't the person responsible for the team out there running until he drops.
Bottom line... The game takes certain skills. Running is definitely one of those skills. In fact it is the only skill that plays on both offense and defense. Why would something so important be used as a form of punishment? I wanted my players to love running, not hate it! Especially during the actual season! If there is a lack of effort or focus... You need to be a better coach because that is on you. if your players are continually making mental errors, you are not doing a good job of coaching.
Running people until they drop and get sick won't win games. Why not just line them up for the firing squad? You have an anger management problem. Every team will have one of those games where nothing seems to go right and you stink up the place. IMO, these are the most important times to handle things calmly. Laughing it off is better than punishing everyone other than yourself IMO. There are other forms of punishment that can be used if necessary.
I personally don't think punishment running sends the right message to kids. They need to run to be in good playing condition. But if they are gonna run then they should run sprints not this non-sense pole running that our coach does. The research is very conclusive that distance running does nothing for your speed as a baseball player. So if your gonna punish them you might as well have them do something productive.
Same thing goes for pitchers running poles, it does nothing for them. Have them run sprints.
Too many coaches do what they did years ago and the science has changed over the years.
PGStaff says: "If the team runs until they drop, why isn't the person responsible for the team out there running until he drops?"
Couldn't agree more! I think a few coaches at lower levels have a difficulty accepting responsibility for their own shortcomings. NOT MOST!! Not trying to offend here ... but this comment just makes sense to me.
Seems very simple to me.
Running for punishment? Fine, no problem, not a fireable offense.
Does it work well? Debatable.
Does a coach need to make his players run for punishment? Probably not.
Should running be part of the team's training? Yes.
Should players be forced to run until they all vomit, until they collapse, or are otherwise harmed? No.
Seems very simple to me.
Running for punishment? Fine, no problem, not a fireable offense.
Does it work well? Debatable.
Does a coach need to make his players run for punishment? Probably not.
Should running be part of the team's training? Yes.
Should players be forced to run until they all vomit, until they collapse, or are otherwise harmed? No.
I don't know if I can agree with this anymore than I do now. This is gospel. This is why coaches get paid a ton of money - know their team. Know if running them will be effective and how often to use it before it no longer is effective. If it's not going to work then find what will work.
Maybe I'm jaded because I'm fat, old and the only shape I'm in now is round but running is never fun no matter the reason - punishment, training, conditioning, strategy, etc.... The vast majority of players will not like it and probably never will. You might be able to train them to not complain and they may be taught what is to be learned from the running but they probably aren't going to enjoy it.
It's something you do because you have to. It's on the coach to figure out why, teach the why and motivate them to do it or learn from it.
My son's team has to do them although the coach is selective about why the team is running. I don't think he has ever run the team for failure to execute (my son may disagree with me) but I have seen him make the boys run poles if they are lethargic on the basepaths or if they don't put what he thinks is 100% on the field.
After 20 years in the Army my attitude is; meh. Personally I don't think it is all that effective but it never seemed exessive so I figured a little running won't hurt anything. Maybe if the boys ran harder on the field they would run less afterward. Of course I wasn't the one running and sometimes perceptions don't equal reality.
The team should run sprints after practice and a game as a conditioning tool NOT punishment. If you use it as a punishment then players hate to run because of their perceived unfairness of the punishment. Besides, if a player wants to get better he should want to practice sprinting. That will help his overall game and perhaps even help his speed.
If track sprinters practice running, why not baseball? Besides, we keep hearing of those vital 60 yard times. Practice it and you could get a little faster!
