Standing up straight

Seen some very good straight up hitters, but don't like it. I'm surprised any one is teaching it. Like upperbody weight above the toes much better.

Sounds like your son is living proof that hitting is mostly natural ability. Ted Williams was going to hit out of any stance. To me "straight up" is too stiff and not conducive to quick reactions.

to me it also does not allow for any flexibility the low pitch is a problem if you are not perfect letting it get deep it is a mile away
i am no hitting expert but we have worked hard i played ball for many years we didnt have all this technical stuff then but i dont think Hank Aaron Willie Mays did either i like them stroke hitters natural swing low finish or natural path finish not letting go of bat
i think Palmiero has a beautiful swing but i forced no style on my son we figured it out
of course anything can be improved
the three magic words are make the adjustment
thank you any one else please

pappy,

Agree with most of that. Probably get in trouble here, but I very much prefer the high finish!

correct me please if the swing path just continues after contact isn't this a natural stroke Aaron Mays Duke Snider Ted Williams all low or natural finish why change your swing path? gettin of subject here
thx

pappy,

Not change it so much, but continue it. Of course, the pitch location will cause this to vary.

This is just my opinion, not the gospel! We all see MLB hitters who finish high and those who don't.

I see thanx

Where are all the hitting experts when you need them?

I have no hitting advice here, I'm just quietly lurking about and gathering useful info.

But (with all respect intended), could you please use some punctuation? Very tedious to read...

Sorry, will do.

Pappy, is the player straight-up at load or setup? The rotational guys like to "vertically stack" by standing fairly straight with usually a slight kneebend. However, when they go to load they often have the bend at that place. Vertical stackers are very relaxed in their muscles. Upright and stacked means there is little tension on the muscles that will initiate and complete the swing.

What I'm really getting to is (1) where is the player at load, not setup, (2) there are great rotational guys who can answer this question, but you may need to give a little more detail on what happens from setup.

I believe it is set up coach wants him to turn in till chin hits shoulder, or the elbow to belly button thing, he can bend knees, coach likes back hip first, all that is ok, but no bending at the waist.
the problems I see are less power, inability to pull which I know has little to do with standing up but it has basically taken a strong
alley hitter to a weak up the middle hitter hitting into far too many double plays I might add, this kid is 6' 4 inches 185 and used to have much more pop. As you know a first baseman
needs some pop nowadays, the days of Don
Mattingly, Kieth Hernandez are over, this is the style of player my son is, today they care little about a crafty lefty 1st sacker.They want Cecil Fielder.I also know he is not truly rotational either I personally am not sold on rotational hitting, the ones I have seen have trouble with curve balls their bat seems to be in the same spot all the time,if you hit their bat good bye,they do not seem to adjust.Like I said we worked years to find what worked best, and the coach disregards a lifetime of work for what he thinks my son should be. Let me say the coach is knowledgeable and and ok guy. We have no choice, it is his job to do what the coach wants and make the adjustment.
Fortunatly he has been sucessful.After all when it's all said and done it inside isn't it.Used to be called Moxie.
All comments are greatly appreciated

Does straight or bent really matter prior to swing as long as he "sits" when he unloads.

I ask my hitters where they should hit the ball. They usually answer "to right field" (right-handed hitters) or "where it is pitched". This is the stock I paid $60/hr lesson answers. The correct answer is you hit the ball between your feet. It travels to left or right or center field, but I want my hitters focusing on hitting the ball between their feet. More exactly, the hands are off or near the front heel at contact on inside, middle and outside pitches. The bat angle is different but the hands are between the feet at contact.

If my job as a coach is to teach the transfer of force from the barrel into the ball, then the hitter must be bent at the waist at contact to do this. To use Ted Williams analogy... to chop down a tree, you transfer the force down and palm up palm down. When you "leak" energy in a swing, you lose power. If you step open, out, stand straight up, get on your toes at contact, leak back, etc. you cost yourself force through the ball. Hitting straight up makes no sense from a physics standpoint. One of my big keys as a coach is to see where a hitter is leaking energy. That is what I try to fix, not his style.

I taught my kid to hit the front of the baseball through the back of it. It is analagous to telling the pitcher to throw through and not to a mitt. He hits a homerun every 10 to 12 PAs and less per ABs. He doesn't do it standing straight up. Of course we have weak pitching in Texas.

quote:

If my job as a coach is to teach the transfer of force from the barrel into the ball, then the hitter must be bent at the waist at contact to do this. To use Ted Williams analogy

Is Ted bending waist here?

This is getting a bit out of my league I'm a simple old ball player. I have no doubt there are great hitters who stand up I mentioned Griffey.But the topic is basically why take a good hitter and make him a lesser hitter.I also know all hitters rotate .Mto7lhp I don't know if it matters.I like baseballpapa's answer to me standing up straight is an un athletic position .I already stated the problems I see
It can work but you must be perfect wait for every pitch. It makes it more difficult to stay alive foul off that tough 2 strike pitch.
Again I am no hitting expert but i prefer bent at the waist agressive athletic stance and approach.Like my son and I worked on his whole young life and technically correct or not the boy could hit.Drafted 2004. Now doesn't hit as well straight up. Hitting the ball between the feet is right on the money for me. Again thank you, and forgive me I just have never analized hitting that much except to hit,
so some of your info is over my head I'm afraid

Pappy,

Not out of your league; I'm just trying to make a point, besides, Ted is a little out of shape here and really not a fair clip to prove my point.

Shep

Thnaks
I do believe he is bent a bit.I am familiar with Mr.Williams as I grew up and played in the sixties. I actually have his book.Bats a little low for me but then I'm not Ted williams.
To make my point you cannot have a cookie cutter approach you must find what works best for you then a good coach can work wonders.
If I had to choose 2 hitters swings as I said excluding Bonds whose swing is magnificent, it would be Raphael Palmiero and the great
Jim Rice from the right side.
Growing up a Yankee fan I shuddered when he came up

quote:

you must find what works best for you then a good coach can work wonders.

Baseballpapa "also" said this just Tuesday and it's true...so true...and astute may I add

Shep

Good morning board!

Didn't quite finish last night with discussion on this thread before actually falling asleep at baseball computer work-station desk...Laugh out loud

Think I've been suffering from insomnia lately....anyway, let me see here....where was I?

Back to topic of bend of waist at contact.

As I stated last night while conversing with pappy, this really isn't a good clip I posted of Ted during BP because he is out-of-shape, it is late in his career here, and this clip was taken very early in spring training before a few pounds have been melted off in FL weather

Not trying to get off topic of thread but would like to mention something else that is glaringly obvious about this clip of Ted W.

Not going to ask: Does anybody know what it is?

Will just "try" and answer in advance.

If you scale down just a very little in clip of Ted Williams here and isolate the lowerbody in clip, you will see what I am talking about.

The back foot actually looses contact with ground and all weight is on firm/rigid front side at contact here.

So much for hitting philosophy of lowerhalve rotating into "touchdown".

If you happen to have any ole clips of Ty Cobb, you will see this with him too in official Major League at bats in game.

Shep

Yes, he is bent at the waist. His head would be over and between his feet if not. His head in that clip is in front of his feet. It is not possible to do that without some bend. By the way, look how delayed his back foot is in rotation. Look at how he starts his swing, then his back foot starts to rotate. I knew he had a low finish, but thought it was because he had head movement. He has really low hands, which facilitates low finish. However, usually a player with low hands pulls front shoulder early. He doesn't because his hands lead the swing and his back foot delays rotation. This clip is great. Most mere mortals could not swing like that if they wanted. They would be breaking down from the low approach. Hitters are generally open at contact. Like pitching you want to delay the shoulder, not keep it closed. Williams does this.

I know I will catch some flak for this statement but I believe it to be the truth. All you have to do is meet a baseball it will go. Its not like a softball and slow pitch where you have to generate every bit of available energy. Try to kill a baseball and I will show you a strikeout waiting to happen. All that really matters is to get a comfortable position and load yourself and meet the ball..Sounds overly simple but its the truth.

quote:

Look at how he starts his swing, then his back foot starts to rotate.

Baseballpapa,

Good morning sir. BTW, the link I posted in PM is now working

If you will sir, go back and look at that rear foot a little closer.

It actually comes off ground without rotating IMHO

SHep

I would like to see where those balls ted is hitting were goin.... I know for a fact you can hit off front food but lose power if ya go too far.

Sorry, I need to clarify some things I posted. That clip really fires me up!

Williams does have a bend in the waist. You cannot have your head in front of your feet without a bend. Period.

What I love this clip for is his back foot. I've known for some time that the back foot rotation (or backside rotation) does not lead a swing. The hands lead the swing. Some MLB players have fairly simultaneous initiation of the hands and backside, but usually there is hands then backside. Williams really delays the backside. This gets his bat through the hitting area. I went back and looked again. His back foot does not face towards the pitcher until he is through the hitting area and he is going to recoil (the bat is coming back). Jeter has a delayed backside as does A-Rod. Hitters with delayed backsides have their bat stay on the outside of the plate longer. Hitters with a quicker backside are quicker to the inside pitch, but the bat does not go through the hitting area as long. Once the backside rotates the bat wants to come back. However, the backside must rotate to get as much power as you can from a swing.

Many years ago a golf video showed a golfer on his knees hit a golf ball 250 yds. He then stood up, took a normal swing and hit it 300 yds. The point was you cannot have backside rotation on your knees and most power is in your wrists. The same is true in the baseball swing. I saw Jeter in a World Series get completely fooled by a pitch. He committed his legs to the pitch but kept his hands back. He used almost just his wrists to barely put the ball over the right field wall.

I can see that you think alot like myself..Dont read many people on here talking about it but body has to be loaded to fire but hands start swing and meet baseball. IMHO

Mniterambler what you said about meeting the ball is good. Bonds has a quote "I love me" O sorry not that quote, he says "I dare a pitcher to throw to as hard as he can. I let the pitcher supply the energy in the swing. I just try to catch the ball with the bat. If a catcher can catch a pitch thrown 103 mph, why can't I."

Well I know for a fact it works. People try to talk power hitter contact hitter, its all the same if your body is comfortable and you snap on baseball it will go you dont have to generate power as long as the right angle is there. You also will be alot better hitter when not trying to kill the baseball. You have to learn where to hit a baseball. I want to see line drives with bottom spin sail out of the park, not those towering high ball that an undercut swing will provide. yes they do go out but I believe you will be a better hitter with line drives because when you miss and get bottom spin alot of those balls seem to find a hole.. Pardon my english I dont usually try to explain much.

Williams used what he termed was an "upswing". The ball is coming at a downward angle. He wanted to match the trajectory and not swing level with the ground. He did have, however, incredible bat speed. I tell my hitters to swing "fast" or "quick" not hard. Hard creates tension. However, the bat speed is necessary to get as much read time as possible. It is important for your son to increase bat speed as much as possible to play at the next level. A good rule of thumb is the batspeed needs to match the ball speed. If the pitcher delivers from 55 feet to the plate at 75 mph and the hitter swings from an arc length of 5 feet at 75 mph, then the swing is delayed while the ball is in the air. The batspeed then relates back to ability to hit. My son has a 90 mph+ batspeed which allows him to explode on the ball and take away spin and give him more read time.

I agree with everything but that upswing that everyone loves..Start from a comfortable position so that you are ready but relaxed muscles. Tight muscles are alot slower to start, and explode the hands thru the ball. I know that every kid is different,and I have changed my sons mind set several times because he gets off on something and forgets what he already knows..He can hit and hit anything because of his hand speed....I just have to worry about his eye sight now because its getting worse, He wears contact lenses and can't pick up spin the way he used to...And I dont think that is impossible either as some people do.

Define hand speed for me.

quote:

Originally posted by Infopimp:
Define hand speed for me.

The speed at which the hips, followed by the shoulders pull the hands though the zone???

quote:

Originally posted by Shepster:

quote:

If my job as a coach is to teach the transfer of force from the barrel into the ball, then the hitter must be bent at the waist at contact to do this. To use Ted Williams analogy

Is Ted bending waist here?

great clip

not in my book troy

quote:

Originally posted by baseballpapa:
More exactly, the hands are off or near the front heel at contact on inside, middle and outside pitches. The bat angle is different but the hands are between the feet at contact.

I'm not sure I agree with this. For outside pitches, you have to let the ball get deeper and hit it closer to your back leg. For the inside pitch, closer to the front foot.

To me, the bat angle doesn't change, its just a matter of how far along in the swing you are at contact.

Your way would require alot of wrist action to either keep the bat head back or forward. Not sure that's what I would teach my kids.

quote:

His back foot does not face towards the pitcher until he is through the hitting area and he is going to recoil (the bat is coming back).

Papa is right about this statement. The bat does recoil but take a look at this clip of Ted BB shared with us a while back>Ted's Homerun

No recoil there IMHO>Once again the first clip again is perfect example of why conditioning, flexibilty, and the CENTER are so important; even for the greatest hitters to ever walk the face of this earth. Shep

Will go ahead and say before somebody else does.

The second HR clip really doesn't run long enough in finish to determine if recoil is present

quote:

Originally posted by goMO:
For outside pitches, you have to let the ball get deeper and hit it closer to your back leg. For the inside pitch, closer to the front foot.

To me, the bat angle doesn't change, its just a matter of how far along in the swing you are at contact.

Your way would require alot of wrist action to either keep the bat head back or forward. Not sure that's what I would teach my kids.

Agree....

About to have to leave for the afternoon so will go ahead and write the purpose of why I put clips up of Ted Williams to begin with.
This was intent and my punchline.

BTW (Papa, it is not to try to disprove any of your statements as you may think about bend in center, rear foot, etc.)

It is more along the line of a player being in tip top physical condition when preparation meets opportunity and bringing seperate aspects of baseball training together like in marriage, if you will. Like to call it combination thinking of the successful player, my patent, BTW.

This is where the rubber meets the pavement of the hard work and sacrifice required that so many are not willing to pay the price but still expect to just get by on just learning proper mechanics but got news, IT AIN'T GONNA HAPPEN. The body has to also be conditioned in combination with learned mechanics.

IMHO, unless the player gets on all-american diet and works out constantly with MEDICINE BALLS/ PLYOMETRIC WORKOUTS / THERABAN WORKOUTS / BASEBALL RELATED DRILLS / ETC ETC ETC , that player will not have the edge needed to be the "best". He will just fall in line with the long list of mediocre players and has beens.

This is what I truly do believe. This is what works. This is what I want, even in my middle age. The is what every player out there should want who wants to be a real player.

Someone whose primary focus is to teach what is necessary to get body in condition/position to perform accelerated/advanced baseball related movements. This is the kind of teacher anyone out there who wants the best should pursue.

Here is one element I will use since the center bend at contact by hitter has become primary focus in this thread> Do not believe one can be achieved without the other just like the statement I wrote to Blue in the other hitting thread. Involves upper and lower halves> Here ya go>

THE CENTER OR MIDDLE OF BODY IN ROTATION HOLDS TOGETHER THE LOWER AND UPPER HALVES AND IS ACTUALLY THE COG THAT TURNS THE WHEEL.

Any of you out there who are really serious about achieving greatness will want this example of marriage to come to fruition in your baseball life too.

Gotta go for now but will be thinking while at the park, always am trying to think of ways to better explain key concepts of hitting

Only when my ashes are spread on a diamond somewhere will I personally stop seeking more.SHEP

You're not saying it's a center out move (versus a ground up move) are you?

Can you say that here?

hey - maybe its both! dyanamic, baby!!