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Steroids and the Hall of Fame

S 2seamer100+ posts
I was shocked to hear that Rafael Palmiero tested positive for banned substances. He has very quietly put together a career with HOF numbers, ranking as one of the best to play the game. He testified under oath to Congress, denying that he used steroids, despite the assertions of Jose' Canseco. He doesn't have the physique of a McGwire, a Sosa, or a Bonds. He's probably one of the last players that you would think from looking at him would use steroids, much less Viagra.

So, where do we go from here? MLB's drug testing program is full of holes. Players can get access to designer steroids or growth hormones that cannot be detected under MLB's testing program. And yet, a player that could pretty much guarantee HOF induction in a few years gets caught redhanded.

If Palmiero has been doing steroids as long as Canseco alleges, what do you do? Disregard his records? If he's gotten away with it this long, who else has been doing it? Who is guilty, but just hasn't been caught yet? People point to Barry Bond's swollen body and head, but he hasn't tested positive yet. Is that because he's innocent, or because he can afford better designer drugs, or masking agents? Who knows? How about Arod, Jeter, Manny Ramirez, or Piazza?
They've tested negative to this point. If my memory serves me correctly, Canseco implicated Cal Ripken. What do you do if a sure 1st ballot inductee like Ripken gets sucked into all of this?

As a kid, I grew up following future HOF'ers like Aaron, Mays, Bench, Morgan, Seaver, and of course, the ineligible Rose. Who do kids have to follow now? Do we now say that records and careers from the last 15 years don't count towards the Hall, because of the suspicion of steroid use?

The floor is open for discussion, Ladies and Gentlemen.... duel
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ClevelandDadClevelandDadHSBBWeb Administrator
I was also shocked about Palmeiro. There are still guys. Ryno was one who was discussed recently. I think Jeter is another. Jim Thome comes to mind. His body looks the same now as the first day he stepped onto a major league field. This whole thing is a crying shame. The game will survive however. They said it would never survive the black sox scandel in 1919 and it did.
HeyBatterHeyBatter1,000+ posts
Look at Giambi, not suggesting he's headed for the HOF, but he pretty much came clean, took it like a man and is back and I think pretty much forgiven. When Mantle acknowledged his own foibles toward the end, he was a bigger hero than ever, if that's possible.

Perhaps what the public doesn't forgive is liars-look at Pete Rose. McGwire is another IMO as is Sosa and most certainly Bonds. Palmiero may now be the worst of 'em all. Telling Congress flat out that he NEVER, EVER and now his excuse (like Bonds) is he didn't know. How can you ever believe these guys. Are these the credentials/character of a HOF?

People will point out the shortcomings of say Ty Cobb, Ruth etc. but did they lie about it, did they deny their conduct (and is it anything like this, I think not.

Rose's repeated lies are IMO what has put him behind the 8 ball and that's where Raffy is headed now. Look at political history. Nixon for example did not go down for anything really but lying and participating in the Watergate COVER UP.

The old saying is the truth shall set you free. IMO the American psyche values truth and can deal with it and understand and forgive and forget. We are champions of the underdog and ready to help those in need to recover from their failings and shortcomings.
But, Liars pull_hair
Last edited by HeyBatter
RacabRacab1,000+ posts
Steroids came into baseball years ago, when steroids use were not illegal. Players did steroids looking for the big money that baseball only reserved to Home runs hitters and power pitchers, and baseball was motivated by the fans love for those players.
Ball players didn't have at that moment any reason to quit the use of steroids, and practically were invited by the commissioner office ignore.
Now that suddenly baseball players have been tested they are not prepared to rapidy get out of the trap created for the whole baseball.
The Commissioner Office has been hypocrite and treacherous to the players. Long time ago the commissioner saw the players and the numbers growing and did nothing about it. Now they started to legislate about steroids, and punishment is the only thingh they can do. May be they are going to put asterisk on the new records, but they ( records)are going to persevere, and the Palmeiros, Bonds, Sosas, Mcguirres will be in the Hall of Fame.
itsinthegameitsinthegame5,000+ posts
Asterisk - or no asterisk. Doesnt really matter IMO.
Kicking them out of the game - who cares? - they have already done their damage and have millions in the bank as a reward.
The bottom line is - They couldnt care less - and their arrogance about it is akin to just laughing in the paying fan's face.

They will go down in history for what they are - which is a bunch of overpaid, arrogant, bold-faced liars and cheaters.

That should be punishment enough for anybody.
And well deserved IMO.
F Fanatic10+ posts
Palmeiro's problem is not that he used steroids. I am relatively ambivalent about the steroid issue. As depressing as it is that MLB ballplayers used steroids and other performance enhancing substances, it is understandable. Imagine the pressure to take such substances? If someone came into your workplace and said that he had a cream or other substance that would improve your work performance beyond belief and would result in your salary going through the roof, what person wouldn't be tempted to take a chance?!?!? In addition, steroids don't turn a bad hitter into a good hitter. There are too many people that took steroids with no effect (Ozzie Canseco, Jeromy Giambi, etc). These players we are talking about are great hitters in the first place, and steroids did not make them good hitters.

All that being said, Palmeiro's problem is that all indication are that he LIED, and possibly LIED to Congress. That will taint him forever, and if proven that he lied to Congress, he may face prosecution and jail time. That is the sad part of Palmeiro's situation.
Moc1Moc1500+ posts
Again, more excuses being given for rule breakers. IS IT ILLEGAL TO USE STEROIDS? Are these ballplayers morons? Why do you folks continue to excuse
bad behavior. Why have rules if we choose to ignore them--is it all for show?

I've asked this question before and had no response, I'll ask again.

If the taking of illegal drugs does not IN ANY WAY enhance one's performance on
the field then why are these players risking their careers by taking them?

BTW since when does a Major League team promote a "bad" hitter from the minors?
Glove ManGlove Man1,000+ posts
quote:
If someone came into your workplace and said that he had a cream or other substance that would improve your work performance beyond belief and would result in your salary going through the roof, what person wouldn't be tempted to take a chance?!?!?


If it was against the LAW and I risked getting fired or serving jail time, and having my family suffer because of my stupidity, I'd say NO THANK YOU, turn back around and keep working. If it was LEGAL, then I'd say "Bring it on!"

I'll agree with Moc1, quit making excuses. Baseball had turned a blind eye on the issue since the 80's, and now they're about to pay the piper.

On Sunday I was talking to the TV (my wife thought I was crazy!), when ESPN had an Outside the Lines debate on whether Rafael is a Hall of Fame guy, I was saying" Hel* yes he is, are you voters crazy!" On Monday, after a disturbing phone call from a friend to tell me the news...I say they should keep him out!
F Fanatic10+ posts
You folks are really holding MLB ballplayers to unrealistic standards. They are, after all, human beings.

The steroids were illegal ONLY IF THEY WERE OBTAINED WITH PRESCRIPTION. At the time they were being taken by the players, they WERE NOT ILLEGAL IN THEIR WORKPLACE! If, by chance, players had prescriptions, then when they were using, it was NOT illegal.

Cmon folks --- don't put these guys on a pedestal. First, they don't belong there, and second, they are no different than you or me.

Final note on this "illegal" issue --- if it were illegal, they would have been arrested and prosecuted -- so far, I haven't seen that happen!
Glove ManGlove Man1,000+ posts
I guess you're right, I think I do remember learning in my Government class back in high school that the "Laws in the workplace supercede the laws of our government"

My bad I'm sorry noidea

That's all they have to do then, is get a few physicians to go along with their story and write a bunch of prescriptions. That way the Dr. gets sent to prison and the players are off the hook because they obtained the drugs from a Dr. with a prescription!

Somebody call Rafael, and tell him he doesn't have to lie anymore! There is a way out!
R Ramrod100+ posts
As in the movie "School Ties" Matt Damon plays a student that "cheats" on a test. The class then poses the questions, to the instructor, why couldn't they all just take the test over, the professor tells them that if he did that he would in affect allow the cheater to get away with it, and then make everyone else complicit in the cheating.

That is what is happening here. By virtue of the fact that baseball knew that this activity was going on and the results of the stats that were being put up by pitchers, and other position players, were tainted by drugs, not just steroids, has corrupted the entire game. Because baseball has allowed this to go on for so long the results are that everyone has become corrupted, from front offices to the playing field everyone is dirty.

There is only one thing to do, fire the commissioner, put an oversight commission in place to evaluate the best way to implement a anti-drug policy that has teeth, and is legal in that it complies with the US Constitution, and consider erasing all records achieved by all players from 1980 to 2005. That is the price that baseball should pay for allowing cheating to go on. But in this country "cheating" is considered an acceptable way to get an "edge" as long as you don't get caught. Little chance of that happening.

Unless the users of the drugs that enhanced their performance would like to come forward, come clean and take their punishment like men. But I don't anticipate there are many men in baseball with that kind of courage.
Last edited by Ramrod
Just MeJust Me100+ posts
I think discussions about "illegal", "cheating" and punishment need to be looked at in the perspective of the rules in place at the time of the use or alleged use of of the various agents.
If the substance a player used was not prohibited or banned at the time of use then there really is not an issue of cheating or illegality. I believe that several of the banned substances have only recently been added to the list. Obviously continued use of a substance once it is on the banned list is cheating and is a different issue.
If all "performance enhancers" are banned then it becomes similar to the abortion debate where everybody defines the existence of life to be whatever best serves their argument at the time, ie "what is a performance enhancer?"
Vitamins? Nutritional supplements? Russian or Eastern European supplements only? Gatorade? It certainly enhances performance. Maybe part of the test of the quality of the athlete, and therefore his right to "star status" should be his ability to withstand the rigors of dehydration and electrolyte depletion over the course of the contest. After all Babe Ruth couldnt drink Gatorade so why should current ball players be able to?
The Game, like life, is dynamic. The "steroid era" is like the live ball era, the dead ball era, the lower mound etc. The game was here before steroids it will be here after steroids. Who cares really? Anyone going to stay home from the park? Stop playing catch with the kid?
Holden CaulfieldHolden Caulfield1,000+ posts
My two cents:

1. Why are we so quick to assume that if a guy looks today the way he did when he came into the league then he's clean? I don't think that making a major league roster is a prerequisite to obtaining steroids.

2. Why do people continue to argue that steroids don't make you a better hitter? While it may be true that they don't improve hand/eye coordination (this, perhaps, explaining Jeromy Giambi and others), they do improve every conceivable kind of hit. As someone pointed out earlier this week, adding a few inches or mph to a ground ball will turn many a routine out into a base hit.

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