Strasburg - All too familiar story

That was a very interesting read. I feel for Strausburg and wish him only the best. Indeed, it makes me happy my son does not pitch.

I still can't help but wonder if there isn't more to this than just bad luck?

Interesting that he mentions Frank Tanana only in passing but Tanana was a fireballer who lost his fastball to injury. He was able to transform himself into a finesse pitcher but was never quite the same as those early days.

i too feel bad for Strasburg. Isn't Nolan Ryan the Man?

3P on Strasburg

I saw this article on the PG site and I was saddened by what people (3P not PG) will do for money. First they show two pictures at different points in the motion of two completely different pitchers. Second the picture of Strasburg is very misleading as his foot hasn't made contact yet and the arm often rotates pretty significantly in that small interval as the foot gets to contact. Third 3P states that the "optimal" amount of external rotation at footstrike is about 53 degrees above horizontal and that the safe range is from horizontal to vertical. By no means have they said anywhere other than this article as far as I know that the optimum is as close to vertical as possible at footstrike. Studies have shown that being vertical at footstrike is on the edge of being bad for the arm and that anywhere past vertical is bad for the arm.

My guess is that if they had shown an image of Strasburg right at footstrike his arm would most likely have been horizontal and (barely) in what they consider the "safe" range. There are a lot of MLB pitchers who are horizontal at footstrike, especially the harder throwing ones, and Lincecum is much, much later than Strasburg but I haven't seen any warnings about him from 3P.

It looks like 3P needs to exercise a bit of quality control over their marketing people.

WOW. Talk about a lack of class. Good marketers always expound on their product or services benefits without getting too negative with their material. This one is going to haunt them for a while IMO if they don’t pull it down. This is piece is in very poor taste.

I have always felt that the personal relationship and the one on one communication with a student was always more important than video in teaching pitching. I always wondered if their service was going to be successful. Don’t get me wrong, as I am a huge believer in video. Companies do things in desperation when they are not successful maybe this is the case with 3P.

I was one of those who sided with those who predicted his elbow would give him problems. In that article by 3P Sports, I found this relevent line-

"A lot of people in professional baseball will say to leave him alone. Let's see what happens. Because they haven't embraced the science," D'Angelo remarked. "The professional level needs to wake up a little."

I really couldn't agree with this more regardless of how it is applied or who interprets it. The agent for Strasburg had this to say about his inverted elbow at foot plant-

Strasburg's "inverted elbow" also has been labeled an "inverted W," referring to upside-down arm action where the elbows rise above the shoulders as the front foot hits the ground. But Strasburg's agent, Scott Boras, does not think that's what caused his client's elbow injury.

"We have heard the 'Curly W Theory' and all of these things," Boras told MLB.com. "The point is, those references are made to the shoulder -- shoulder injuries."

On the contrary, the inverted elbow at foot plant has been studied and shown to be associated with elbow pain and issues. To me it is somewhat clear that his agent is just trying to protect his credibility and of course all the potential money he could lose on future clients. How many other pitching coaches also glaze over the obvious if it means "$" or their jobs?

As the article states, I think it is time to start really applying what the research has shown and start making some changes with how we view mechanics and what can be done to prevent them. It seems to me that most MLB clubs will sign a kid regardless of mechanics if it means wins and money for their organization. TJ surgery now days is almost part of the equation that factors into their big money and win/loss ratio, so who really cares if a pitcher has mechanics that may lead to injury and sidelines him for a year if in the long run it means more money and wins. For the Nat's its not a big deal- they just wait a year, bring him back and can at least count on him for another 3-4 years to bring in revenue and tally a few more wins. But does this mindset cure the problem? No, and it may never cure the problem.

I find it interesting that people harp on the many who critique his mechanics and have done so leading up to his injury and yet who is harping in the organization itself (the Nationals), Nobody! They are all silent, no one wants to change anything or thought he should have changed anything- it was like a gag order within the organization itself. I mean really- who wants to step up and say the kid may be causing himself bodily harm when 15 million dollars are at stake?

To me it proves the point that MLB organizations needs to do something to help prevent and cure possible mechanic issues in young pitchers rather than just turn the other cheek in the face of money and wins.

He hit 100 on the gun with a devastating curveball, their investment was and will be worth every penny in the long run even if they knew he had an issue. He'll come back a different pitcher. If it was his shoulder, would be a different story.

I don't see the Nats being at fault, you can't spend that money and then proceed to take a few years to change things. They had to get him on the mound asap to recoup. Perhaps those changes should have been done while in college, everyone predicted he would have issues, it just happened sooner than later and hopefully that works in his favor.

I have a feeling the Nats were ready to handle this situation. Imagine the PR nightmare of not calling him up just to work on his mechanics; all the while he's still in the minors posting ridiculous numbers. Or they change his mechanics and all the sudden he is terrible but healthy. He will come back and continue to dominate with his new and improved elbow. This could actually be a positive for the Nats based on pure timing. Strasburg misses all of 2011, Harper climbs his way through the minors. 2012 your opening day battery is harper and stras. Even if that doesn't happen the window of having harper and strasburg on the same MLB roster has just been expanded by one year.

He's not even close to having an inverted elbow at foot plant. Take a look at the picture. He hasn't even touched the ground and his forearm is almost level.



Here's Strasburg at the very first moment of footstrike:



He's horizontal and within the safe range as determined by 3P sports. If you took it to full foot plant he'd be closer to vertical than horizontal. There's a whole lot of pitchers in mlb who are later than him and relatively healthy.

It wouldn't surprise me if the kid in this picture who my son had no trouble squaring up improved his velocity after this picture was taken by delaying his arm a bit. I don't think my son would be able to square up Strasburg.

Here's Lincecum at the same point in his motion as Strasburg is in the 3P picture:



His elbow looks inverted to me and it is still inverted at footstrike. Of course everybody predicted that his elbow would blow out in his rookie season or didn't they? Give me a break.

From what I have gathered over the years, pitchers who have elbow pain almost always suffer from being "behind" in their arm motions. I haven't seen any correlation with an arm being behind and faster velocity either- just my experience. I know of half a dozen young pitchers (HS age) who have cronic elbow pain when they pitch. Every one of them have an inverted elbow at foot plant. Because the arm must come to the high position before it comes forward, the hips start rotating and bring the chest around before that hand can come up. The problem is that the arm drags behind and as such gets violently whipped forward causing the arm to be under stress for a longer duration. It also causes the forces put on the joints to be more sever.

Now whether or not this theory is correct, I do find it interesting that pretty much every pitcher I have came in contact with who has elbow problems has this inverted arm in his mechanics. Is it coincidence? Perhaps it is, but nevertheless, I haven't seen it to be associated with a higher velocity either.

GBM,
A lot of the hard throwers in MLB are what would be called late. How many MLB pitchers have you come into contact with? How can you say if it is giving a kid more or less velocity when they are generally nowhere close to their full physical development? Lincecum didn't throw that hard when he was much smaller than his peers going into HS. Now he does. Lincecum is about as late as you can get. I've seen plenty of pitchers with elbow problems who didn't have those mechanics.

ASMI's data shows that pitchers who are later than Strasburg or earlier than vertical at footstrike are at a higher risk for arm injury. As you get closer to either of those positions from the "optimum" of being about 50 degrees above horizontal at footstrike the risk does go up but is considered to be within the acceptable range by ASMI. Based on the photo at footstrike Strasburg is within ASMI's and therefore 3P's safe range. Strasburg is very consistent with his timing. I find it more than a little bit opportunistic and hypocritical for them to write an article saying that they could have helped him when he fits within what they consider the safe range.

BTW, here's someone who was at almost exactly the same degree of external rotation at footstrike when he was young and threw fairly hard - Greg Maddux. Too bad Maddux blew his elbow out during his rookie season due to being late otherwise I think he could have had quite a career. (Oops, thats what I get for using grainy images, see below.)

OK, Smoltz had a long career before needing surgrery and his external rotation at foot strike is very similar to Strasburg's.

The timing of the 3P Sports article seems "bush" to me. You gotta like their purported mission, however, to prevent pitching injuries. Not sure how successful they can be pedaling the service one student at a time. Tough way to make a buck.

As for the ASMI; just exactly what have they accomplished in their 20 year association with Dr. Andrews? Dr. Andrews surgical practice is booming and their hasn't been any ASMI recommendations that have impacted arm injuries. As for their data, are there any published names associated with control and test groups? How long have they studied them and whom among their groups has remained injury free:

I can't see, nor do I feel, any positives in having my throwing arm moving towards second base while my body is moving towards home. If there were benefits, then I would expect to see more fielders throwing from their positions utilizing pitching mechanics.

Greg Maddux, now there is an example of what I would consider simple but sound mechanics. His motion in no way resembles Strausburg. Everything he does, from my perspective, lessens pressure on the elbow, shoulder, pitching knee and hip. Smart dude! Hope he becomes a pitching Coach and actually teaches his mechanics rather than allowing pitchers to continue to injure themselves.

No, I don't believe UCL replacement is be a "given" if you choose to pitch. It would seem MLB believes that to be the case though.

Here's the young Maddux. On closer inspection his initial footstrike is right at about frame 100. However, he's far, far from having his forearm vertical at footstrike. He is at what ASMI shows as optimal roughly 50 degrees above horizontal at that point.

quote:

Originally posted by BOF:
Companies do things in desperation when they are not successful maybe this is the case with 3P.

The article states "The company was formed less than two years ago..." and "More than 500 major league pitchers have benefited from the analysis...".

Come on, BOF. Helping more than 500 pro pitchers plus, presumably, pitchers from lower levels with video analysis all within less than two years sounds like business is booming. Of course, we don't really know what "benefited" means.

quote:

Originally posted by CADad:
Here's Strasburg at the very first moment of footstrike:



He's horizontal and within the safe range as determined by 3P sports. If you took it to full foot plant he'd be closer to vertical than horizontal.

Furthermore, you can see he's still completely closed off which means hip rotation and shoulder rotation still have to occur before the arm goes into external rotation. There's plenty of time for his arm to get up.

quote:

Originally posted by Gingerbread Man:
From what I have gathered over the years, pitchers who have elbow pain almost always suffer from being "behind" in their arm motions.

So are you suggesting the solution is to alter the arm motion?

quote:

Originally posted by Roger Tomas:

quote:

Originally posted by Gingerbread Man:
From what I have gathered over the years, pitchers who have elbow pain almost always suffer from being "behind" in their arm motions.

So are you suggesting the solution is to alter the arm motion?

I think the proper term would be to "modify the arm motion" to bring it into proper time. Maybe also I could modify my statement to read that at foot plant and when the hips have squared to home plate, the shoulders should still be facing 3rd base with the arm in it's power position ready to fire the ball. Foot plant doesn't really get us there because it really matters at the moment when the body starts a turnin.

Now I have video footage of some of th ekids I know having elbow issues and it is present in every one of them that when their foot plant has landed and the hips are opened up to home plate, their arm is still on its way up to the power position. The problem here is obvious. The shoulders start to be pulled into square with home plate and the arm is still trying to reach its power position. What happens is that the arm is moving essentially opposite of the way it is being pulled at this moment and thus it is forced to whip around violently. Think of it this way- Have you ever whipped a towel? Of course we all have. the way you do it is to get the end moving opposite the way of the end you hold. The ahrder the jerk the more violent the sound and the whip effect. This is what happens in pitching arms that are late. The ball is coming up and essentially moving away from the moving torso being pulled around. When all the tendons and muscles finally reach their limit, the arm gets pulled back into the right direction causing it to whip violoently. With an arm that gets to the power position before the shoulders start to rotate square to home plate there can possibly be none of this whip action where the hand is moving opposite the direction it is getting pulled thus reducing the violont jerk and stretch of the joints.

Sorry to be so long winded but this is a special interest of study, at least for me.

quote:

Originally posted by CADad:
GBM,
A lot of the hard throwers in MLB are what would be called late. How many MLB pitchers have you come into contact with? How can you say if it is giving a kid more or less velocity when they are generally nowhere close to their full physical development? Lincecum didn't throw that hard when he was much smaller than his peers going into HS. Now he does. Lincecum is about as late as you can get. I've seen plenty of pitchers with elbow problems who didn't have those mechanics.

ASMI's data shows that pitchers who are later than Strasburg or earlier than vertical at footstrike are at a higher risk for arm injury. As you get closer to either of those positions from the "optimum" of being about 50 degrees above horizontal at footstrike the risk does go up but is considered to be within the acceptable range by ASMI. Based on the photo at footstrike Strasburg is within ASMI's and therefore 3P's safe range. Strasburg is very consistent with his timing. I find it more than a little bit opportunistic and hypocritical for them to write an article saying that they could have helped him when he fits within what they consider the safe range.

BTW, here's someone who was at almost exactly the same degree of external rotation at footstrike when he was young and threw fairly hard - Greg Maddux. Too bad Maddux blew his elbow out during his rookie season due to being late otherwise I think he could have had quite a career. (Oops, thats what I get for using grainy images, see below.)

OK, Smoltz had a long career before needing surgrery and his external rotation at foot strike is very similar to Strasburg's.

I know plenty of hard throwers who get their hand up and co_cked before delvering it. In the frames of Maddux it is obvious to me that he isn't late in his arm action, in fact, it looks like his timing is rather great. On eof the things I always liked about hard throwers from eras gone by is that they had such high leg kicks that it actually allowed them to have a greater arm circle and were able to get into the power position well before foot plant and hip rotation, something I have always coupled with hard throwers and less injury. One of my greatest pitchers of all time, Bob Feller shows great arm timing, perhaps the best i have ever seen in baseball.

Lincecum may be considered late in some motions, but then again he still gets his arm to the high power position before the sholders begin to rotate to square up with home plate. He is an animal by his own rights. No one really pitches like lincecum with as much full force effort as he does pound for pound.

quote:

Originally posted by Gingerbread Man:

Lincecum may be considered late in some motions, but then again he still gets his arm to the high power position before the sholders begin to rotate to square up with home plate. He is an animal by his own rights. No one really pitches like lincecum with as much full force effort as he does pound for pound.

Lincecum's shoulders are rotating well before the arm is any where near the "high power position".

quote:

Originally posted by RobV:

quote:

Originally posted by Gingerbread Man:

Lincecum may be considered late in some motions, but then again he still gets his arm to the high power position before the sholders begin to rotate to square up with home plate. He is an animal by his own rights. No one really pitches like lincecum with as much full force effort as he does pound for pound.

Lincecum's shoulders are rotating well before the arm is any where near the "high power position".

I beg to differ. Here-

http://www.chrisoleary.com/pro...incecum_2007_006.jpg

The good old still image taken out of context. Lincecum counter rotates and from initial footstrike to the point where that still image is taken his shoulders have rotated well over 45 degrees. Rob is right. You were wrong.

Unless one does something forced the shoulder externally rotates primarily in response to rotation of the shoulders about the spine.

quote:

Originally posted by CADad:
Unless one does something forced the shoulder externally rotates primarily in response to rotation of the shoulders about the spine.

This

Here's another pitcher who threw pretty hard and was in just about the same position as Strasburg at foot strike. I assume he blew his arm out during his rookie season. (Still images can be deceiving)

We know that every pitcher who throws overhand must get their hand to the high power position before they can bring thier arm forward. We also know that every overhand pitcher isn't exactly the same. There are some who are close and comparable, but everyone is different. When we look at pitchers we tend to associate them with others with like abilities or traits. Studies do show that pitchers who have this inverted elbow tend to have more injury risk. Now, what is actually the cause or is it all just coincidence?

My argument is that the inverted elbow leads to improper timing, more force on joints and eventual breakdown and possible injury/chronic pain. I have taken note of this on my own and have watched people throw and the association I am finding is that elbow and shoulder pain is almost always associated with pitchers having this inverted elbow often also above the shoulder.

quote:

Originally posted by Gingerbread Man:

quote:

Originally posted by Roger Tomas:
So are you suggesting the solution is to alter the arm motion?

I think the proper term would be to "modify the arm motion" to bring it into proper time.
Maybe also I could modify my statement to read that at foot plant and when the hips have squared to home plate, the shoulders should still be facing 3rd base with the arm in it's power position ready to fire the ball. Foot plant doesn't really get us there because it really matters at the moment when the body starts a turnin.

Now I have video footage of some of th ekids I know having elbow issues and it is present in every one of them that when their foot plant has landed and the hips are opened up to home plate, their arm is still on its way up to the power position. The problem here is obvious. The shoulders start to be pulled into square with home plate and the arm is still trying to reach its power position. What happens is that the arm is moving essentially opposite of the way it is being pulled at this moment and thus it is forced to whip around violently. Think of it this way- Have you ever whipped a towel? Of course we all have. the way you do it is to get the end moving opposite the way of the end you hold. The ahrder the jerk the more violent the sound and the whip effect. This is what happens in pitching arms that are late. The ball is coming up and essentially moving away from the moving torso being pulled around. When all the tendons and muscles finally reach their limit, the arm gets pulled back into the right direction causing it to whip violoently. With an arm that gets to the power position before the shoulders start to rotate square to home plate there can possibly be none of this whip action where the hand is moving opposite the direction it is getting pulled thus reducing the violont jerk and stretch of the joints.

Sorry to be so long winded but this is a special interest of study, at least for me.

Let me offer you something to think about. Whenever you use a term like "behind" or "late", you're using a relative term which means there are two ways of looking at whatever it is you're talking about. Is the arm late? Or is the rest of the body early? When I've worked with pitchers whose arms appeared to be dragging, it was almost always due to the front side opening up early. And the solution has been to fix the front side. This lets the throwing arm do things most naturally instead of in some arbitrary way dictated by a coach.

Let me ask a rhetorical question...

How does a coach know from a physiological standpoint what the best arm motion is for a given pitcher?

My preference is to fix other elements of the delivery and let the arm figure out how to adjust on its own because I believe that will result in the most natural arm motion.

I guess its all relative. On any account, the arm is out of sinc with the body because the motion is incorrect. pitchers shouldn't break their hands and lead with elbows but instead should lead with their hands.

You mean lead with their hands like this?

quote:

Originally posted by Gingerbread Man:
I guess its all relative. On any account, the arm is out of sinc with the body because the motion is incorrect. pitchers shouldn't break their hands and lead with elbows but instead should lead with their hands.

Ginger....it sounds like someones been feeding you a line of bs

quote:

Originally posted by CADad:
You mean lead with their hands like this?

Picture doesn't tell much. Nolan Ryan is a pitcher who is able to get his hand to the high power position before foot contact. He did not have a arm running behind.

Here is a better picture.

quote:

Originally posted by Gingerbread Man:
On any account, the arm is out of sinc with the body because the motion is incorrect.

Not always. I've found that more often than not a late arm is caused by an early front side.

quote:

Originally posted by Roger Tomas:

quote:

Originally posted by Gingerbread Man:
On any account, the arm is out of sinc with the body because the motion is incorrect.

Not always. I've found that more often than not a late arm is caused by an early front side.

You are right. It's not always the case. In the few kids I know, their arm really is late because they lead so high with their elbow. Their elbow literally whips to and fro before it is guided into release- certainly not good mechanics.

Nice picture GBM. The key in this picture is how closed his hips and his shoulders are at this point. The stride leg is open but the hips have barely begun to open if at all. This is going to come in quite handy for me. My son didn't have the velocity he felt he should when throwing in a scrimmage yesterday. I told him that the problem was probably an arm that was a bit early, given his past history. Then I told him that rather than focusing on making the arm later the key was to find a way to start opening later. That would take care of making the arm later. He counter rotates so by the time his shoulders are lined up with the target he's already rotated quite a deal and that tends to make the arm early even though a still picture at that point wouldn't show his shoulders as being open at all. The cue I gave him was to try and land with his hips still closed and his shoulders more closed than lined up with the plate. Now I can show him exactly that image.

BTW, it really depends on the pitcher. Matt Cain counter rotates and starts opening his shoulders early but he brings the ball up significantly elbow first and that gets his timing right. Somebody like Rich Harden (who has had a lot of problems) who doesn't counter rotate at all has no problem with opening early so he doesn't bring the ball up elbow first and his timing eventually matches up with Cain's.

There's a big difference between pitchers who swing the leg and counter rotate and pitchers who drive more directly to the plate.

quote:

Originally posted by CADad:
Nice picture GBM. The key in this picture is how closed his hips and his shoulders are at this point. The stride leg is open but the hips have barely begun to open if at all. This is going to come in quite handy for me. My son didn't have the velocity he felt he should when throwing in a scrimmage yesterday. I told him that the problem was probably an arm that was a bit early, given his past history. Then I told him that rather than focusing on making the arm later the key was to find a way to start opening later. That would take care of making the arm later. He counter rotates so by the time his shoulders are lined up with the target he's already rotated quite a deal and that tends to make the arm early even though a still picture at that point wouldn't show his shoulders as being open at all. The cue I gave him was to try and land with his hips still closed and his shoulders more closed than lined up with the plate. Now I can show him exactly that image.

BTW, it really depends on the pitcher. Matt Cain counter rotates and starts opening his shoulders early but he brings the ball up significantly elbow first and that gets his timing right. Somebody like Rich Harden (who has had a lot of problems) who doesn't counter rotate at all has no problem with opening early so he doesn't bring the ball up elbow first and his timing eventually matches up with Cain's.

There's a big difference between pitchers who swing the leg and counter rotate and pitchers who drive more directly to the plate.

I agree with you about it being a problem if they are too early. My own son is guilty of this from time to time. The key with him is to stay balanced longer with his leg kick instead of falling forward too quickly.

I personally believe that every pitcher who throws hard is at an elevated risk for injury. Of those hard throwers, some are in the rather safe zone while others are in a fragile zone always bordering the line of injury if everything isn't perfect. With an elbow that comes up too high, I believe, it places the arm in that fragile zone because it forces the "window" for getting the arm into the power position to close too soon.

We went to a baseball camp and the instructor (a former pro pitcher) went through various timing drills for the arm to work with the lower body to both minimize risk of injury and at the same time maximize velocity. One of the key drills he did was to have the pitchers break their hands in sequnce with the leg coming down in the leg kick and from there to then lead with the hand and finish into the power position at the moment of front foot full contact. It wasa interesting to watch the kids who were late because they would land and finish and their elbows were up but the hand wasn't- they were not in the power position. The coach thus explained that the arm has to be in the power position at foot contact because from that moment, great forces are generated on the arm as it is pulled through until just after ball release. Pitchers who are not in the power position at full foot contact are at a higher risk for injury and velocity gains may not be achieved.

quote:

Originally posted by CADad:
I told him that the problem was probably an arm that was a bit early, given his past history.

A relative term (in bold above).

quote:

Then I told him that rather than focusing on making the arm later the key was to find a way to start opening later. That would take care of making the arm later.

See? Always two ways to look at things. Nice Job CADad!

quote:

He counter rotates so by the time his shoulders are lined up with the target he's already rotated quite a deal and that tends to make the arm early even though a still picture at that point wouldn't show his shoulders as being open at all. The cue I gave him was to try and land with his hips still closed and his shoulders more closed than lined up with the plate.

Just curious what part of his body he's focusing on counter-rotating? Shoulders? Hips? Whole body? Maybe just taking his knee back during knee lift?

BTW, another trick - instead of counter-rotating - is to start with the posting foot heel rotated away from the rubber. This doesn't require any conscious counter-rotating.

Roger,
I have no idea. He just does what he does. We tried to get him away from the counter rotation for quite some time but it is built into his motion nowdays. Unless some make or break type of situation comes up I can't see trying to change that part of his mechanics at this late date. Personally, I wish we could somehow get him back to the simpler, cleaner mechanics he had when he was about 13yo.

i love all this talk about mechanics but what about the training regiments they have ballplayer do nowadays. back in the day pitchers would start on 3 days rest and most would throw everyday. nowadays it seems teams try so hard to save player's arms that it actually causes more damage to the ligament and tendons in the arm. the atlanta braves pitchers throw everyday, even the day after a start. this is the best way to remove lactic acid from the tissue and increase repair and reduce injury. icing and resting is not the answer...just a thought

== Link deleted by moderator. Sorry, you are not allowed to advertise your website in forum posts. - MN-Mom Forum Rules ==

quote:

Originally posted by brewers40th:
i love all this talk about mechanics but what about the training regiments they have ballplayer do nowadays. back in the day pitchers would start on 3 days rest and most would throw everyday. nowadays it seems teams try so hard to save player's arms that it actually causes more damage to the ligament and tendons in the arm. the atlanta braves pitchers throw everyday, even the day after a start. this is the best way to remove lactic acid from the tissue and increase repair and reduce injury. icing and resting is not the answer...just a thought

I agree 100%. We tend to baby arms too much nowdays. I am of the opinion that players should throw a lot- everyday during the season and even a lot in the off season. It bothers me when I see kids warm up for a game- here is the typical routine-

Go out and stretch- 5-10 minutes
start tossing back and forth while the coach does last minute changes to the lineup card and bull$$$$'s with the opposing coach,
then, just when players are starting to air out the arm they stop- just like that.
In games, relivers come in cold usually, throw 6 pitches and they apparently think they are ready to go.
Then after 2-3 innings of solid work they come out with arm pain or fatigue and are told by everybody and their dog to go home and use plenty of ice and then don't throw for 3 days.

It's no wonder we have so much problems in todays athletes- they don't condition and train to throw properly. Ibuprofin and ice doesn't answer the call- it isn't the cure all fix. Better coaching needs to happen. Players will listen to a good coach and train harder and condition their arms better. They also need to be taught how to warm up to throw and learn the most important thing- throwing a lot (not pitching) is a good healthy habit for every player on the team.