Strasburg's "Inverted W"

Don't know too much about what they call the scap loading but as for the inverted w, I know a couple kids in my area that throw like this and all of them have elbow issues. One pitching coach at a camp we attended said that bringing the elbow up that high causes a timing issue where the arm gets too far behind resulting in a pitcher to end up throwing with more "arm".

The scap loading is usually in the stretch phase of delivery. Almost every pitcher pulls the shoulders back when striding out before foot plant. I didn't know if he was saying he is doing this at lift or if the elbow up and scap loading, in general, causes the problem.

Here is Pettitte at load



This is Strasburg



Clemens


Pedro Martinez


The ball is neck high or higher on all pitchers but not Strasburg. His elbow is up and the ball down. They all scap load, or pinch their shoulders at stretch phase.

Although here is Strasburg in a different photo. It may be that the pitchers are not being shown at exactly the same time during delivery.

From what I can see, pretty much every pitcher does this scap load, if thats what it is called. I went and watched some video tonight and counted frames from where they first started to open up with torso to the moment of ball release and the pitchers having the inverted "w" took two to three times the amount of time to release the ball during that phase versus those who had no inverted "w" and got the ball to high co_ck position early. This tells me that the amount of time the arm is under load is far greater in the inverted "w" which seems logical and consistant with them having more arm pain and earlier fatigue.

With Strasburg it may also be the fact that he throws so hard.

We are seeing the same thing. All pitchers that circle drop their pitching hand when they initiate, or break their hands. Most get the ball up pretty early. Also, the pitcher that releases above the shoulder must get the ball up to release "downhill." Strasburg must be getting to that high part of the circle late (according to the White Sox coach).

The article also shows the teams with the most 200 inning pitchers since 2003, when he took over the pitching with the club. He by far has the most 200 inning pitchers of any MLB club. He is seeing something different in Strasburg. I would like CAdad's take on the timing of the circle when throwing -- he seems to study the details.

By the way, I love Idaho.

quote:

With Strasburg it may also be the fact that he throws so hard.

D'Oh

How do you put a photo in a post? And yes, the harder you throw the greater chance of injury.

Anyone have a photo or video of John Smoltz? I'm pretty sure he and Strasburg's delivery are very similar and he pitched for a long time.

-------------------

Here is an article I found with great discussion on his delivery (and yes, it is like Strasburg's)...

http://www.chrisoleary.com/pro...yses/JohnSmoltz.html

Chris Oleary...

Run Forest Run...

BOF how unkind...Don't you know that IF ONLY John Smoltz would have listened to O'Leary.....Just imagine how great he could have been. I mean 200+ wins and 200 saves..gotta work real hard to s u c k like that.
Bbpop..Dysdale was another of those terrible inverted wierdos...he just didn't make the money that Smoltz did.
I would also say this....injury at that level is more than "just" a mech point. The innings it takes to be considered one of the 300 best on earth (About how many players pitch in the majors at any one moment) are really tough..it's why they are at such a premium and why they get the big check.

I like the picture and can identify with Gump. Can someone tell me how to post a photo so I don't have to post links to photos?

I'm really looking for opinions based upon the White Sox coach's comments. We can start a debate thread Wolforth v. House v. Mills v. Marshall (and that would be interesting), but I would really like to hear comments on scap loading with the elbows up, pinching the shoulders causing labrum tears.

I would be more interested to know if anyone thinks there is a fix for this.

My older son had an inverted "W" and had elbow surgery in high school (chips), shoulder surgery (The Nationals) and was breaking down constantly in college. He broke down in short A, had surgery and called it a career. He threw hard which always increases chance of injury, but looking back, I'd like to know if I could have done things differently. He is now finishing his degree and will coach in the future.

I have a 12 year old who will be pretty good and I'm already changing my approach with him and would like to avoid injury to him.

A fix? To have a "fix" there has to be a problem.
If you look at what happened to your eldest as just an example, the loss of conditioning due to the chip surgery could quite plausably caused the issue with his shoulder, really any number of reasons could be in play, from diet to conditioning issues to over-use. Could you have prevented or precluded injury by "doing" something else? Thats a toughie...This is the "thing", only he and you know "everything"..med history, conditioning regieme, other sport injury, the amount he threw as well as duration...things like proclivity to rhumatoid arthritis or immune diseases (My son got mono as a college freshman..his physiology/immuno system will never be the same..and it weakened him to the point of injury). All that stuff has much more to do with injury.
As for your 12 yr old. Make certain he delivers the ball in a fundementally sound manner (Hand behind the ball, symetry at footstrike, proper posture..etc), this can be done a variety of ways, my son went to college clinics and camps, instead of playing travel ball. The load of pitching throughout his pre-puberty, puberty and early post-puberty years was thusly much lower than many of his contemporaries who were travel involved (Way more load, by factors of many). Across the board all but one of those contemporaries were done by the end of high school..either with nagging injury or just cr ap for an attitude..and that other one got injured his 1st yr in college (He's since got it back together and is doing fine), while my son is still going...even though he missed last season due to the mono.
If you remember back a couple of years ago when Dante Bishettes kid was in the LLWS he (Dante) said that his son wouldn't be pitching after the WS run until he was 18....that says "something".
You can condition, you can prepare..you'll not "avoid" injury in active participation in competitive sports..it is an unrealistic wish (My eldest took a funny hop and cracked his shin bone for example). If your youngest loves it and wants it to be his future, then get him "smart" to arm health, care and maintenance and try to keep his pitching to as much a minimum as you can get away with, while still doing things like playing catch and just throwing as much as you can while still keeping him competitive. My youngest only played league ball, All-Stars and Fall ball until "travel" was "meaningful" (The summer between his Jr. Sr. HS season), when he was actively scouted. He's always thrown really hard and it wasn't easy to say no to all the offers for travel but we were blessed to have a solid Babe Ruth Association, they were able to win a Fla state championship as a 12 yr old..so he saw the glory without taking miles off his arm.
If you consider that perspective, it may give you the inspiration to "change" in another possible path to get to the upper level.

We were taught at a camp recently that at front foot contact their pitching arm should be in the high co_ck position with the ball up and that if it wasn't in this position at foot contact then the arm is behind and cannot come up and rotate fast enough causing the arm to be under more load and making more internal roations under stress and prolonging the arm delivery causing added but uneeded stress. They did this drill over and over with the kids making them take the ball out of the glove and bringing it up in a nice smooth arc to the high **** position and then stopping. At the same time the kids would stride and time the events of the high co_ck position and foot contact at the same time.

Their reasoning was that at foot contact is when the hips begin their rotation causing the torso to thus also begin to rotate to the open position with the shoulders. If there is supposed to be a true kinetic chain reaction then at that point the ball needs to be high and stationary until it begins to be pulled around. If the ball is still trying to come up to the high co_ck position once the kinetic chain began then it would thus translate into forcing that kinetic power through to the joints of the arm causing uneeded stress until it got to that position. They explained that until the ball gets into the high co_ck position, it does not rotate forward and thus- the arm is behind while the torso is already pulled open.

To post pictures you must first reach omnipresent status here must have posted 1,000 times.

You then must sacrifice three goats to the God of Posted Pictures…Father Gotwood.

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After this you must then travel to India and bow down and pray before the three pigmy posting princeses.

Gotwood I forgot the last part can you finish this?

GBM,
Not sure what you meant.
Can you post a pic?


JD,
I am sorry to hear your son was so ill, I hope he is doing much better now.

I agree with what you posted about Dante's kid, I stated that in another topic about beginning too soon, no one seemed to understand that concept.

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"Gotwood I forgot the last part can you finish this?"

You may have forgotten the last part BOF, but you sure didn't miss a beat on the rest!

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Dante pitched last month at the WWBA tournament.

quote:

Originally posted by TPM:
GBM,
Not sure what you meant.
Can you post a pick

Not very good at posting a picture. I wish I could post video of mine showing exactly what I mean. I will try to explain it this way-

Under slow motion of a pitcher with good timing he will be in the high co_ck position at foot plant. As his torso begins to turn at this point the PAS will still be in the high co_ck position and the ball will have virtually not really have moved yet. Then as the hips come to an open position facing home plate the PAS will begin to rotate and bring the ball through to release. Because this happens so quick, the PAS needs to already be in position when the kinetic chain begins at foot plant. This minimizes the duration that the elbow and shoulder are rotationg during the phase between foot plant and release.

A pitcher who is late due to this inverted "w" position suffers because- At front foot plant, the hips have already begun their rotation and have started placing some stress on the shoulder and elbow because they are still trying to get the ball to the high co_ck position. What happens is that the ball must get to the high co_ck position first before it can start to come forward. So, as the hips roate and come to the open position the PAS is not yet to the high co_ck position and because of this the arm is behind in the timing sequence. Under slow motion you can see this problem develop as the elbow and shoulder are rotating under a high stress and stretched load to get to that high co_cked position that they should have already been at when their front foot first landed. So then, as their PAS finally gets to the high co_cked position and their hips have already come open and released the energy through to the arm, the PAS is then violently pulled through still under stress until just after release. So there are two possible damaging factors involved, so says the pitching camp instructor-

1st- the shoulder and elbow are under un-needed stress getting the ball to the high co_ck position which shouldn't happen up to that point.

2nd- The arm being behind creates an added "duration" of stress placed on the joints from the moment of foot contact and hips opening up until ball release.

Whereas some slight velocity may be gained by having the arm be slightly behind and thus stretched further, the long term effects can be injurious and could lead to a shortened pitch count before fatigue and thus place the pitcher at a higher risk for sever injury.

Just cut and paste the link.
Another name for that Hi co ck is power position. They haven't made that impossible to say..yet.

"Dante pitched last month at the WWBA tournament".

Sounds like the old man held him back as long as he could...how did he do PG?

quote:

Originally posted by Gingerbread Man:


Under slow motion of a pitcher with good timing he will be in the high co_ck position at foot plant. As his torso begins to turn at this point the PAS will still be in the high co_ck position and the ball will have virtually not really have moved yet. Then as the hips come to an open position facing home plate the PAS will begin to rotate and bring the ball through to release.

Respectfully disagree.

I think CADad posted in a thread a good explaination of where the arm is (varies between throwers but if I remember correctly where the arm is at footplant had direct correlation to how hard a pitcher threw). If the ball ever stops moving during the delivery (after hand break), THEN you have a timing problem and "slack in the whip".

quote:

Because this happens so quick, the PAS needs to already be in position when the kinetic chain begins at foot plant. This minimizes the duration that the elbow and shoulder are rotationg during the phase between foot plant and release.

The kinetic chain starts well before footplant.

quote:

A pitcher who is late due to this inverted "w" position suffers because- At front foot plant, the hips have already begun their rotation and have started placing some stress on the shoulder and elbow because they are still trying to get the ball to the high co_ck position. What happens is that the ball must get to the high co_ck position first before it can start to come forward. So, as the hips roate and come to the open position the PAS is not yet to the high co_ck position and because of this the arm is behind in the timing sequence. Under slow motion you can see this problem develop as the elbow and shoulder are rotating under a high stress and stretched load to get to that high co_cked position that they should have already been at when their front foot first landed. So then, as their PAS finally gets to the high co_cked position and their hips have already come open and released the energy through to the arm, the PAS is then violently pulled through still under stress until just after release. So there are two possible damaging factors involved, so says the pitching camp instructor-

And this is bad because why?

I guess you have to define goals here. Are you trying to be as efficient as possible with your delivery to try and throw the ball with the greatest velocity, command, and location as you can? Or are you trying to be careful and safe worrying about a potential injury all the time?

If you have a timing problem then it most certainly will effect you velocity (make it lower) at the least, and possibly, after a long enough period, could lead to an injury at the worst.

A "timing problem" is a very vague term. What is posted here does not necessarily equate to a timing problem IMO. Timing issues can happen anywhere in the delivery. What I would call a timing issue - a "late arm" (lets just say just before or at footplant) is if the arm is below paralell at scap load (ball would pointing more towards the ground), or an "early arm" at this same point (ball is not doing anything and is "pausing" or waiting for the rest of the body to catch up). An early arm creates "slack in the whip" or kinetic chain.

quote:

1st- the shoulder and elbow are under un-needed stress getting the ball to the high co_ck position which shouldn't happen up to that point.

2nd- The arm being behind creates an added "duration" of stress placed on the joints from the moment of foot contact and hips opening up until ball release.

Whereas some slight velocity may be gained by having the arm be slightly behind and thus stretched further, the long term effects can be injurious and could lead to a shortened pitch count before fatigue and thus place the pitcher at a higher risk for sever injury.

Pitching at high velocities creates stress all by itself. It's risk/reward. If you want to be safe, never throw above 80 and you will probably pitch for a long time. It will never be anywhere, but you will probably be safe and injury free.

Where is CAdad's thread? I will try to post my 12 year old at some point soon.

RobV,

Perhaps you don't understand what I am saying. The PAS must get to that high co_cked position before their hips have rotated tot eh open position. Pitchers having the inverted "w" do not get to that position until later. The amount of stress placed upon the joints as they are still rotating trying to get to that high position and then through till launch is a greater duration and more rotational movements.

The correlation between where the arm is at foot plant and velocity is irrelevent- too hard to tell from pitcher to pitcher. But, it has been documented that pitchers having an inverted "w" take longer to deliver the ball from foot plant onwards and also show a higher risk for shoulder and elbow injury. They just don't teach kids like mine at baseball camps for nothing. These guys are paid professionals who know with some degree of knowledge that the inverted "w" is not good on an arm.

My son gets his arm to the high position early. He also has suffered from no injuries to this point and is basically pitching pain free and ice free. He also is one of the best pitchers in his state with one of the highest velocities for his age. Now that can be argued on whether it his the way his hips rotate (rotational) or if he is just faster with his hips, who knows. But, it certainly doesn't seem to be slowing his velocity very much to get to that high position at front foot plant.

quote:

Originally posted by Gingerbread Man:
RobV,

Perhaps you don't understand what I am saying.

Not to be rude, but perhaps you don't understand that the inverted W is thought to be bad by certain teachers, not all. I think you have made it abundantly clear on what you see the issue to be. I think (maybe I'm being presumptuous) that Rob V (and others) just doesn't agee with that theory.

quote:

Originally posted by Gingerbread Man:
RobV,

My son gets his arm to the high position early. He also has suffered from no injuries to this point and is basically pitching pain free and ice free. He also is one of the best pitchers in his state with one of the highest velocities for his age. Now that can be argued on whether it his the way his hips rotate (rotational) or if he is just faster with his hips, who knows. But, it certainly doesn't seem to be slowing his velocity very much to get to that high position at front foot plant.

And your son is only 14. He has a long way to go before you realize whether what you are doing is working or not.

Once again GBMan, it is good you have done research on this type of thing and you are certainly (in my book) welcome to share your thoughts and insights, but that doesn't make it gospel. There are many theories and beliefs about the pitching motion, all of which have their merits.

There's a lot of confusion about this because of using "foot plant". Foot plant is a continuum and people can pick a lot of positions the arm is going through and call it foot plant. For that reason ASMI uses what they call stride foot contact when the foot first makes contact with the ground. Given that some people make contact flat, some make contact heel first and some make contact toe first there's still some variation in that. ASMI has found that the "safe" range is from the forearm parallel to the ground to vertical at stride foot contact. They use about 50 to 60 degrees from parallel at this point as their optimum. They've found that being below parallel or past vertical at this point tends to put more stress on the shoulder.

It is a risk/reward thing and I don't know if the inverted W has any inherent problems. I do tend to believe that being below parallel at stride foot contact is a bit of a risk and potentially a bit of a velocity upper.

My son tends to be vertical or past vertical at stride foot contact. The times we've gotten video of him at 88 to 89 on the JUGS he was at about 50 degrees at stride foot contact. At lower speeds he's at vertical or past vertical at stride foot contact. He doesn't have an inverted W but if he ends up delaying his arm such that he's at or below parallel at stride foot contact he'll probably increase his velocity and the stress on his shoulder. Our goal is to get him around the 50 degree area consistently.

quote:

Originally posted by bballman:

quote:

Originally posted by Gingerbread Man:
RobV,

Perhaps you don't understand what I am saying.

Not to be rude, but perhaps you don't understand that the inverted W is thought to be bad by certain teachers, not all. I think you have made it abundantly clear on what you see the issue to be. I think (maybe I'm being presumptuous) that Rob V (and others) just doesn't agee with that theory.

quote:

Originally posted by Gingerbread Man:
RobV,

My son gets his arm to the high position early. He also has suffered from no injuries to this point and is basically pitching pain free and ice free. He also is one of the best pitchers in his state with one of the highest velocities for his age. Now that can be argued on whether it his the way his hips rotate (rotational) or if he is just faster with his hips, who knows. But, it certainly doesn't seem to be slowing his velocity very much to get to that high position at front foot plant.

And your son is only 14. He has a long way to go before you realize whether what you are doing is working or not.

Once again GBMan, it is good you have done research on this type of thing and you are certainly (in my book) welcome to share your thoughts and insights, but that doesn't make it gospel. There are many theories and beliefs about the pitching motion, all of which have their merits.

I agree that is an opinion and not gospel. However, I know several kids that my son has played with and against that have had cronic shoulder and elbow pain from pitching and I have video of them pitching and coincidently they all show the inverted "w". So maybe it is just coincidence and there lies a different problem we haven't picked up yet.

That could be very true in what you have seen. If you take Smoltz as an example, how many years did he pitch before he had surgery? I know he pitched something like 21 years in the MLB. How many guys without the inverted W played fewer years and had injuries that knocked them out?

BTW, I am just playing devil's advocate here. I know my son does not have the inverted W, but still has to deal with "timing" issues at times and has to watch that he is not "draging" his arm in his delivery. Particularly on his breaking pitch. Maybe it has to do with something other than the inverted W. Maybe every pitcher is different and gets to the point of release differently and have their own demons to deal with.

Although it is all related in the timing of the complete delivery, I think the main problem is high elbows at full scap load. This puts strain on my shoulder just doing it. When I drop my elbows the strain is not as bad.

Add to that the arm has farther to finish the delivery at foot plant and it just seems like extra strain.

quote:

Originally posted by CADad:
My son tends to be vertical or past vertical at stride foot contact. The times we've gotten video of him at 88 to 89 on the JUGS he was at about 50 degrees at stride foot contact. At lower speeds he's at vertical or past vertical at stride foot contact.

Once CAson gets to vertical, does he keep his forearm at 45 degrees (compared to upper arm) as the elbow comes forward? Or does he bring his hand toward his shoulder (and close the gap) as his elbow goes forward?

/ hope I am making sense here

quote:

Originally posted by bballman:
That could be very true in what you have seen. If you take Smoltz as an example, how many years did he pitch before he had surgery? I know he pitched something like 21 years in the MLB. How many guys without the inverted W played fewer years and had injuries that knocked them out?

BTW, I am just playing devil's advocate here. I know my son does not have the inverted W, but still has to deal with "timing" issues at times and has to watch that he is not "draging" his arm in his delivery. Particularly on his breaking pitch. Maybe it has to do with something other than the inverted W. Maybe every pitcher is different and gets to the point of release differently and have their own demons to deal with.

I agree, there are PLENTY of pitchers who don't have inverted W and out of the game MUCH sooner than Smoltz. I believe that every pitcher is different and no matter how hard you try to avoid injury, it's going to happen when you pitch.
My opinion, this is the time when most professional players are hurting all over, pitchers and hitters alike. Most guys will not say anything until it pops, snaps, tears or breaks, Strasburg is a huge investment and an integral part of their future, they won't let that happen. He hit the 100 inning mark this season, that's when things can begin to break down. This is just one of those things that people like to find reason for the negative, "you spent all that money and he probably won't last".

FWIW, my son doesn't have an inverted W, but has an achy elbow after 100+ innings pitched with high velo.

BTW, why bring up 14 year olds accomplishments when the topic is about a 22 (21?) year old professional pitcher who hits close to 100?

Do 14 year olds get sore arms just like 22 year olds?

quote:

Originally posted by Gingerbread Man:
Do 14 year olds get sore arms just like 22 year olds?

14 year olds get sore arms but probably not for the same reasons 22 year old do.
I agree with doing your due diligence and luckily your son has no issues at this point, but do we really know what will cause elbow or shoulder issues later on?

And does it really matter whether your son is one of the best pitchers in the state with a high velocity at 14? What does that have to do with Strasburg?

quote:

Originally posted by TPM:

quote:

Originally posted by Gingerbread Man:
Do 14 year olds get sore arms just like 22 year olds?

14 year olds get sore arms but probably not for the same reasons 22 year old do.
I agree with doing your due diligence and luckily your son has no issues at this point, but do we really know what will cause elbow or shoulder issues later on?

And does it really matter whether your son is one of the best pitchers in the state with a high velocity at 14? What does that have to do with Strasburg?

I do what I can to properly train and teach my son so that he won't have major problems when he is 22. In mentioning my son we were talking about velocity and what sequences must happen first. I mentioned my son...

What do you have exactly against my son? You seem to be the only one who is bothered by me bringing him up? Is it not relevent to say how my son throws in relation to the topic?

Sultan,
No he doesn't. I think that is more typical as pitchers age and lose some of their flexibility. They bring the ball in toward the ear to make up for less external rotation. I've got very little external rotation left anymore so I know I bring the ball in toward my ear a lot. Then again, catchers tend to do it so who knows?

TPM,
My guess is that almost any pitcher who throws at high velocity and puts in that many innings, pens, etc. is going to have an achy elbow. I remember pitching at about 16 and if I went 7 innings my elbow ached. I promise you I wasn't throwing anywhere near as hard as your son is. I tried to play long toss with my son the other day while we were on vacation and had to make 40 or 50 throws at my max distance (not very far) and my elbow ached for over a day.

You probably wouldn't mention it unless he's already let the team know but just in case is this the place to mention your son having an achy elbow?

quote:

Originally posted by CADad:
TPM,
My guess is that almost any pitcher who throws at high velocity and puts in that many innings, pens, etc. is going to have an achy elbow. I remember pitching at about 16 and if I went 7 innings my elbow ached. I promise you I wasn't throwing anywhere near as hard as your son is. I tried to play long toss with my son the other day while we were on vacation and had to make 40 or 50 throws at my max distance (not very far) and my elbow ached for over a day.

You probably wouldn't mention it unless he's already let the team know but just in case is this the place to mention your son having an achy elbow?

CADad,
You said what I was trying to say about Strasburg. The tightness in the shoulder does not necessarily mean that there is a major problem, same as the achy elbow son is having. Two different pitchers with different mechanics, so who is to say what will cause an issue later on and what won't.
Yes it has been addressed, and he is doing well.

GBM,
I have never said anything negative about your player, in fact, I care much about what you do so that he doesn't have porblems later on. I said it is good that you are doing your homework for later on (not that I agree with all), I was just wondering why we need to know all the specifics, like how good he is or how hard he throws, how many games he's won, complete games, what does that have to do with a 22 year old pitcher?

My player didn't have any issues either, does anyone care how good he was, how hard he threw at 14, no, do you, no?

TPM,

Sorry, but it just seems like anytime I say anything about my son on any post that has to do with his success you seem to have some major issues. Perhaps I am just trippen but it really seems like you are always questioning me on my sons ventures in pitching. I get the idea that you think I have no clue with son and that whatever he does at this age doesn't matter. Am I wrong?

TPM,

And yes I actually do care how your son was at 14- how he pitched, what he practiced doing, how hard he threw, etc.

GBm,
I just don't think it really matters (their success which you speak of or lack of) until they reach HS, or maybe sometimes after that, basically when the young boys turn into men. Besides, have no idea where your son fits in relation to others his age, is he bigger, is he stronger than others than his age?

I don't know if you remember me posting about Matt Latos in HS, check him out. He didn't throw hard and he didn't throw well the first two years in HS, now he is a ML pitcher.

Stephen Strasburg, check out what he was like in HS all the way up until the time he was drafted. His story is pretty amazing. JMO.

I can use my own pitcher as an example, he threw hard but not as hard as others, he pitched well, but not as well as others, he's gone farthest than most in his age group (and no one from age 10-14). Now I have no idea if it is because his time was limited on the mound, his mechanics, he hit puberty much later than most his age, no inverted W, lack of youth injury, his frame or desire. There were plenty much, much better than he was at 14. I just don't get how everytime there is a discussion you get in there with how successful your son is against others, because to me, and to some others, IT means nothing in youth baseball. JMO.

Now what you do to keep him healthy (in your individual opinion) and how you prepare him (hate that word train for younger players) does.

The only thing that matters is where they stand come recruiting time (forget the draft for a moment), in relation to those in the rest of the country all looking to go to college to play ball.

TPM,

What I am after is what others on this board are after- success for their son. I think its great that your son came through and is great. If we share insights with each other perhaps we will learn more. The topic on this post is the inverted "w" and scap loading. The area of the inverted "w" is one that really interests me because I know several kids who I am working with that suffer from pain in their elbows and shoulders and they all happen to have the inverted "w".