Strasburg's "Inverted W"

quote:

I know several kids who I am working with that suffer from pain in their elbows and shoulders and they all happen to have the inverted "w".

GBM, if you are worrying about 14YO pitchers with elbow problems because of inverted W’s, you have no idea how far off the path you are…....I think TPM’s point is this: If you are providing unqualified advice to these players you are doing them a huge disservice at the best, and at the worst you are putting them in danger of further injury.

GBM,
In your position I'd be worried about the inverted W also. It is also a good data point for the rest of us. However, it is too small a sample to base any firm conclusions on.

I don't have any hard beliefs on the true inverted W one way or the other. Smoltz in my mind doesn't get very close to an inverted W. He does bring the ball up elbow first but doesn't really get the elbows above the shoulders before going to the conventional scap load position. Strasburg gets the elbows a little bit higher than Smoltz but still not to an Anthony Reyes or Mark Prior type of position. I wouldn't call what Strasburg does an inverted W.

BTW, here's an article that I pretty much agree with and which illustrates a lot of points about this subject:

Brett M. Inverted W

quote:

Originally posted by BOF:

quote:

I know several kids who I am working with that suffer from pain in their elbows and shoulders and they all happen to have the inverted "w".

GBM, if you are worrying about 14YO pitchers with elbow problems because of inverted W’s, you have no idea how far off the path you are…....I think TPM’s point is this: If you are providing unqualified advice to these players you are doing them a huge disservice at the best, and at the worst you are putting them in danger of further injury.

BOF,

You have no idea- you are jumping to conclusions. Let me explain.

Two weeks ago one of the dad of a former player I coached came to me and said that his elbow has been bothering him. I watched him pitch and I said it looks like his arm is behind (he was pitching on a rival team), you should video tape him and watch for him bringing his elbow up to high, perhaps it is causing a timing problem. I told that Dad that a pitching instructor at a camp explained about that problem and how he viewed it as being harmful.

So, I am just relaying "professional" advice to help out a kid who is struggling through some pain issues. As for actual instructions, I have never given this particular kid any pitching mechanic instructions. When he pitched for me things were fine. Somewhere in the past year he has developed some bad mechanics. Unqualified advice? Ask the retired professional pitchers who gave my son the advice. I am just relaying their professional opinions.

I also thought he meant he was "working with them". Passing on advice isn't always the smart way to go. JMO.

I would have suggested go see a doctor then let a qualified pitching instructor fix up the mechanics.

Nice article CADad, we do have to remember it's just a theory, lots of stuff are just theories. Perhaps someday, there will be scientific study as to the true significance if these theories cause injuries.

CADad and others,
Question, was wondering as to your opinions.

In HS son had a few mechanical issues (nothing major or drastic) and when asked about it everyone said, leave alone until he finishes the maturing process, as long as he has no issues (which he never did except one time practicing and throwing a screwball, result tendinitous) leave him alone.

When he went to college, it took 3 years of tweaking, his last tweak was to raise velocity for draft purposes and he was a bit off the mark for awhile. I asked why not earlier, I was told it's a gradual process, if you change things dramatically you can do more harm than good, especially when they are in season playing. Never an issue.

I see that in son's organization, most major tweeking is done in the off season, if a pitcher has a mechanical issue that is causing a concern (sore elbow, etc) he is placed on the DL and then they do the the fixing, not while playing. In college that's tough to do, because you don't have the luxury of so many arms to take over.
It just so happened that son, who always threw a circle change was tipping that pitch, so he decided he wanted to learn the split finger CU, and then the elbow started up. For now, no more split finger CU until the off season. He remains in the game.

Don't you do more harm than good while a pitcher is playing, trying to change something he has been doing maybe for quite a while? Would you just eliminate it, or just stop playing if there is a pain issue and address it later on, after a doctor is seen and cleared to pitch again?

What's your opinion on that?

Passing on advice is almost always a good idea, especially if it comes from one who has already been there and done it. People on their own must determine what advice is good or not. There is probably more advice on this forum than anywhere else on the entire web. Some of it I find good and some I don't know yet. Information to pass along to thers in need is alway a good thing. People can decide on their own if they want to use it or not.

TPM,
That's a tough one especially when a pitcher is trying to earn his spot on the staff. We've found there isn't really much of an offseason. CASon wanted to work on velocity this summer but the coach at the college insisted he throw twice a week, a total of 6 or 7 innings a week, in their summer program which started not too long after the regular season. To be fair he was willing to let CASon pitch once a week and also do the velocity program but that was a 4 day a week program and he wouldn't have been able to do that properly and it probably would have been a bit risky for his arm. As a result there really wasn't much chance to work on anything. His control also dropped off a bit as they went along due to not throwing any pens. Then that coach left to take an assistant job at a D1 school. CASon took a couple weeks off and now he's trying to fit in some serious long toss and will try to make some small changes through shadow drills (just trying to get him to delay the arm a bit) to see if we can add a little velocity without making any changes that would impact his control over the next few weeks. We'll have to see what the program is with a new coach in the fall to see if he can safely and effectively work on anything on his own time.

We have avoided having him throw a slider even though that would probably make him more effective as he's had some problems while trying to learn the slider in the past. The problems probably weren't actually related to the slider but we're playing it careful for now.

I'm not a big fan of making changes during the season or while a pitcher is competing for a spot but that's something that has to be handled on a case by case basis especially as one gets to higher levels where the choice may be doing what the coach wants or not having a roster spot.

Interesting story about tipping pitches - we were picking up some bands from Alan Jaeger and Jason Hirsh was throwing a pen. Jim Wagner who is one of the guys who worked with Trevor Bauer noticed that Hirsh was taking his fastball and his breaking ball back with the wrist turned differently. Hirsh had a so-so year the previous year, I think in A ball, and then had a spectacular season after that and moved up the ladder pretty quickly thereafter.

BTW, be prepared for 10,000 questions asking what the tweak was to try and raise the velocity for the draft.

First TPM, your boy is on a whole different level vs any of the kids who’s crazy dad’s are posting here. He is getting instruction from guys who do this for a living. Not that they don’t make mistakes, but I am sure he is getting great direction.

FWIW, it has always been my experience is that you play with “what you brought” during the season. Trying to make adjustments in mechanics, hitting or pitching while you are in the middle of competition is very difficult. Mostly it is just trying to stay healthy and executing what they already know. Throwing in something new, particularly at his level must be very very difficult. I have also been told to be careful with split finger pitches due to elbow strain.

GBM, I have learned the hard way to politely keep my mouth shut. I am a very good golfer and I NEVER offer swing advice to anyone I play with. I do the same with pitching, there are just too many variables and frankly while I know a lot about pitching..... I really just think I know a lot…..so why give advice and just mess someone up. I do know who are the good and bad pitching instructors are in my area and will direct people to them if they ask or give encouragement to a pitcher. Trying to give advice about flying W’s, X’s, Y’s and Z’s when you don’t know what they are is dangerous.

I hope people who read these statements about "making changes" realize that it takes thousands and thousands of QUALITY repetitions to initiate any meaningful mechanical change. Especially when combined with trying to perform these "changes" under game stress.

CADad,
First, it took DK years to learn how to properly throw a slider under Sully, and more time on the pro level, now is probably his best pitch (so they say) so it does take a while.
Sully did the tweaking for velocity, and even if I did know what he did, I wouldn't give the advice, I am not the expert, that's how I feel about that! The reason I know this was because in May before his draft he got a bit wild, and he told us not to worry about it that was because of the adjustments he made for an extra 2 mph, hitting the 95-96 mark.

Want to hear a funny story, one day before a game we came to field and Dave and Moskos were tossing to each other with Sully watching, arms folded very serious. They had tried to throw pitches not allowed by him and he was quite angry, so he was giving them lessons to satisfy their whim. Funny thing is there are some folks here who say their young kids throw that pitch, so I am going to say it probably isn't safe for most pitchers if his college pitching coach put it off limits.

CADdad,
FWIW, not only do they notice those things, but also the muscle movement in their arms to recognize a pitch. That's why you will see many ML guys wear long sleeves even in the heat of summer. That's how smart these guys on the upper levels, and that's what got them there as well.

Interesting is that DK had a few variations of a circle change he used when younger and was successful, he can't use it anymore for some reason his slot changes and picked up on the AA level. So he asked Dennis (Martinez) to teach him the new CU, and that is when is elbow got grouchy. He can't throw a cutter (another prefered cardinal pitch) because of his slot, so he needs that other pitch to move forward. I will bet knowing my son he's using it anyway.

That's just an example of how things on the youth level drastically change later on as the hitters grow up and get smarter. So success at the youth level is just that, success at the youth level.

GBM,
Not understanding why if a parent came to you that his son's elbow was bothering him you wouldn't tell the parent for him to stop pitching and seek a doctor's advice asap, how would you know exactly what's going on in that elbow? Because he showed signs of an inverted W, how do you know it was that causing the issue? Since you seem to prefer to "train" your son like the pro pitchers train, I just want you to know that the first thing they do when something feels tight or hurts and the pitcher complains is stop what they are doing, seen by the trained doctor that day if at home and given a series of tests to determine what it might be.
Then you either get a clearance or the dreaded MRI that sends you to the DL. When my son had his shoulder issues and they found nothing, the pitching coach, the roving pitching coach and the pitching guru would stand there and watch to see if his mecahnics were causing issues, nope, they did this over and over until a very special trained doctor knew it was nothing that anyone would know unless they had come across it before (not a common condition). Just a friendly word of caution.

quote:

Originally posted by RobV:
I hope people who read these statements about "making changes" realize that it takes thousands and thousands of QUALITY repetitions to initiate any meaningful mechanical change. Especially when combined with trying to perform these "changes" under game stress.

quote:

Originally posted by TPM:
CADad,
First, it took DK years to learn how to properly throw a slider under Sully, and more time on the pro level, now is probably his best pitch (so they say) so it does take a while.
Sully did the tweaking for velocity, and even if I did know what he did, I wouldn't give the advice, I am not the expert, that's how I feel about that! The reason I know this was because in May before his draft he got a bit wild, and he told us not to worry about it that was because of the adjustments he made for an extra 2 mph, hitting the 95-96 mark.

Want to hear a funny story, one day before a game we came to field and Dave and Moskos were tossing to each other with Sully watching, arms folded very serious. They had tried to throw pitches not allowed by him and he was quite angry, so he was giving them lessons to satisfy their whim. Funny thing is there are some folks here who say their young kids throw that pitch, so I am going to say it probably isn't safe for most pitchers if his college pitching coach put it off limits.

CADdad,
FWIW, not only do they notice those things, but also the muscle movement in their arms to recognize a pitch. That's why you will see many ML guys wear long sleeves even in the heat of summer. That's how smart these guys on the upper levels, and that's what got them there as well.

Interesting is that DK had a few variations of a circle change he used when younger and was successful, he can't use it anymore for some reason his slot changes and picked up on the AA level. So he asked Dennis (Martinez) to teach him the new CU, and that is when is elbow got grouchy. He can't throw a cutter (another prefered cardinal pitch) because of his slot, so he needs that other pitch to move forward. I will bet knowing my son he's using it anyway.

That's just an example of how things on the youth level drastically change later on as the hitters grow up and get smarter. So success at the youth level is just that, success at the youth level.

GBM,
Not understanding why if a parent came to you that his son's elbow was bothering him you wouldn't tell the parent for him to stop pitching and seek a doctor's advice asap, how would you know exactly what's going on in that elbow? Because he showed signs of an inverted W, how do you know it was that causing the issue? Since you seem to prefer to "train" your son like the pro pitchers train, I just want you to know that the first thing they do when something feels tight or hurts and the pitcher complains is stop what they are doing, seen by the trained doctor that day if at home and given a series of tests to determine what it might be.
Then you either get a clearance or the dreaded MRI that sends you to the DL. When my son had his shoulder issues and they found nothing, the pitching coach, the roving pitching coach and the pitching guru would stand there and watch to see if his mecahnics were causing issues, nope, they did this over and over until a very special trained doctor knew it was nothing that anyone would know unless they had come across it before (not a common condition). Just a friendly word of caution.

Lots o good info here for those paying attention.
My son has a quality slide piece now and his hook (Which was his k producer when young) is now nearly never used, it's real interesting to watch a kid evolve and develop under trained personnel. Dennis Martinez...I'd pay just to sit and listen to that guy talk strategy.

Key word, trained personel.

IMO, a former pro player is not always necessarily qualified, unless he's been on the ML field for years and years and his record shows he knows what he is talking about. Anyone can go to a web site and read off a list of drills necessary for youth pitchers, but the certified pitching instructor is far more better to look to correct problems than second hand advice.

JMO.

Is there really a "certified" pitching instructor?

My older son was getting a pitching lesson from a Cy Young award winner. He told my kid that at foot plant he pulled his glove to his chest to help get the backside through. On video, he does not do that. His chest moves to his glove. I respect, though that it was a key that worked for him.

Mills, House, Strom, Wolforth & Marshall disagree with each other. They have all had success & yet they don't say the same things.

I have to decide how to wade through these muddy waters as a parent with my next kid & try not to duplicate the earlier mistakes. I get him lessons by ex pros but frankly there are not any of them that good.

quote:

Originally posted by baseballpapa:
Is there really a "certified" pitching instructor?

My older son was getting a pitching lesson from a Cy Young award winner. He told my kid that at foot plant he pulled his glove to his chest to help get the backside through. On video, he does not do that. His chest moves to his glove. I respect, though that it was a key that worked for him.

Mills, House, Strom, Wolforth & Marshall disagree with each other. They have all had success & yet they don't say the same things.

I have to decide how to wade through these muddy waters as a parent with my next kid & try not to duplicate the earlier mistakes. I get him lessons by ex pros but frankly there are not any of them that good.

Your post good illustration of my point. The former Cy Young and his advice, could be what he did and found it successful, or maybe he himself didn't realize, I always thought that the glove remained and you moved towards it.
The roving pitching instructor in sons organization is Brent Strom. I don't know much about him other than that he has improved the consistancy throughout the organization with their particular pitching philososphy. You know everyone moving in the same direction at each level rather than individual opinions. When you see 2 or more levels in a season you can get 2 or more ways to do things.
A good example of what may be good for some and not others was that when suggestion was made to son (from the pitching guru) to make an adjustment to take strain off of neck upon delivery (which made so much sense) which he worked on all spring, it just wasn't working for him. That's the risk and reward spoken about. He'd rather take the risk. His models to follow were Cy Young winners, current and former ML pitchers. It just wasn't working for him. That is an example of what works for one doesn't work for another. These instructors work really hard, really hard on trying to keep pitchers healthy, but in actuality, it really is such a hard thing to do. The reality is that ML starters are expected to put in mega innings, close to 200 for veterans, and IMO it's just impossible to do that without a breakdown, though you will find just a few who can, but that is pretty rare.

That's why I feel less time on the mound as a youngster makes so much sense though I know that is only an opinion. Nothing wrong with working drills to strenghten and learn, then applying it later on. If I had to do it all over again, that is what we'd do, even though there has been very little issues, still would do it differently.

In my area years ago people ran and paid big bucks to a former ML player, I never saw much improvement or success throughout the years of his pitchers or players. The best guys were the pro scouts and college coaches.

It just dawned on me that you are Casey's dad, I had watched him pitch at FSU, lots of good stuff he had, I am sorry to hear he is not pitching anymore, I hope that he is doing well.

BOF,

Who said I was messing anyone up? I never give anyone advice if they are successful (which of course means nothing to TPM because success at 14 means nothing). The advice I give out is relayed information from paid professional instructors. So I ask you-

If you never offer anyone advice, then why are you offering me advice when you know nothing about the situation? What was that you said about politely keeping your mouth shut?

quote:

Originally posted by TPM:


GBM,
Not understanding why if a parent came to you that his son's elbow was bothering him you wouldn't tell the parent for him to stop pitching and seek a doctor's advice asap, how would you know exactly what's going on in that elbow? Because he showed signs of an inverted W, how do you know it was that causing the issue? Since you seem to prefer to "train" your son like the pro pitchers train, I just want you to know that the first thing they do when something feels tight or hurts and the pitcher complains is stop what they are doing, seen by the trained doctor that day if at home and given a series of tests to determine what it might be.
Then you either get a clearance or the dreaded MRI that sends you to the DL. When my son had his shoulder issues and they found nothing, the pitching coach, the roving pitching coach and the pitching guru would stand there and watch to see if his mecahnics were causing issues, nope, they did this over and over until a very special trained doctor knew it was nothing that anyone would know unless they had come across it before (not a common condition). Just a friendly word of caution.

I never claimed to know what was happening in his elbow. I was only relaying information from what I have learned. I told the Father that it was not good that he had elbow pain- that it was a very bad thing perhaps caused by a timing issue. I noticed while he was pitching that he had that inverted "w" and his arm was way behind. People know I am not a paid professional. I guess if you want or think I should, then from now on, anytime anyone has any issues with their bodies from playing baseball I will just tell them- Someone who really knows their stuff (you are a professional TPM, are you not?) told me that you should seek imediate professional doctors advice. And if they as what I think may be causing their discomfort (like this Dad did) I should tell them as you so advise- "A person who really knows their stuff told me that I was not qulified to give out opinions and that he should seek out an ex-MLB player who knows".

Frankly, it's quite ridiculous TPM. Parents are smart enough to seek out help on their own. If a parent came to me knowing my limited knowledge they obviously are just looking for opinions. I offered my opinion and they are free to take it or leave it. I will not be sued over this, you make it sound as if I know nothing about pitching and as such should never offer anyone advice, even if it is just relayed opinions from professionals. Do you honestly think I would jeopardize the health of any young pitcher?

If you can recall, I took my son off a team because I thought they pitched him too much. In parting I told the coaches they needed to do something different to not fatigue their pitchers too much.

We are all entitled to give out advice. But you seem to hammer me to the fricken enth! Honestly, in this thread, what bad advice do you think I gave out regarding my opinions on the inverted "w"?

Baseballpapa

quote:

“I would be interested in comments to the following that is being said by the White Sox pitching coach about Strasburg...”

The problem here is he really did not say anything nor do they ever! This coach has no clue as to why he says anything involving human physiology or kinesiological actions or injurious affects. He needs to be an expert! and go to the source of the best information concerning these actions.

quote:

”Such a delivery, some pitching coaches believe”

This is a huge problem and needs to be changed from believe to know

quote:

“puts him at greater risk of shoulder fatigue”

Is he talking degradation here the correct meaning of fatigue? Or the classic false call out by them that fatigue means lack of capasity?

Warning!! for those of you who wish to avoid state of the art scientific information or practice non-curious behavior or anyhing Dr.Marshall has to say please discontinue reading now!

Dr.Marshall explains the kinesiological actions that are performed when ‘Scapula loading” occurs in this 2006 personal e-mail to Dr.Marshall by a concerned father.

144. First, let me say that I have been following your teaching’s after my son had been injured during a disastrous time working with an internet site that teaches scapula loading and rotating in to foot plant. He had Tommy John surgery 2 years ago and is now ready to start throwing again after a very long recovery time.

My Question is one of concern that this practice of scapula loading is being taught by some instructors as a way of throwing harder, but I’m sure it has become the source of injury of many athletes’ that are taking this theory to practice.

I would like to hear what you think of this way of throwing and how it has not only hurt my son, but as I feel will be a source of disaster for many young arms if this idea continues to catch on!

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Dr.Marshall answers:

I think that you should sue Paul N yman and his set pro website. I have repeatedly told him that his 'Scapula Loading' concept injures pitching arms. For probably about the tenth time, I will explain why 'Scapula Loading' destroys pitching arms.

N yman mistakenly believes that when baseball pitchers pinch their pitching and glove Scapulas tightly together, this maximally lengthens the muscles that drive their pitching arm forward.

During the 'traditional' pitching motion, two injurious flaws converge to enable pitchers to pinch their Scapula together.

First, 'traditional' baseball pitchers reverse rotate their hips, shoulders and pitching upper arm well beyond second base. Second, when they forwardly rotate their hips and shoulders, the 'Late Pitching Forearm Turnover' and 'Reverse Pitching Forearm Bounce' flaws of the 'traditional' pitching motion causes the pitching arm to remain essentially stationary while their glove foot contacts the ground and the pitchers start to move their glove forearm laterally backward. As a result of these flaws, the Scapulas move very close together, such that the pitching and glove upper arms approach a ninety degree angle behind the pitchers' body.

In this position, the front of the pitching shoulder suffers considerable unnecessary stress, but the danger is not over. Because the pitching forearm, wrist, hand, fingers and baseball are moving backward while the pitching upper arm is moving forward, by accelerating the 'Reverse Pitching Forearm Bounce,' 'Scapula Loading' greatly increases the stress on the Ulnar Collateral Ligament. That explains why your son ruptures his Ulnar Collateral Ligament.

But, there is more. If the Ulnar Collateral Ligament survives this stress, then 'Scapula Loading' attacks the olecranon fossa. This means that 'Scapula Loading' greatly accelerates 'Pitching Forearm Flyout.' When the pitching elbow starts moving, it has to first return to the pitching arm side of their body. In 'traditional' baseball pitchers, this means that the pitching elbow moves about four feet sideways and two feet forward. This movement generates horizontal centripetal force that slings their pitching forearm, wrist, hand, fingers and baseball laterally away from their body to their pitching arm side.

This means that 'Scapula Loading' accelerates 'Pitching Forearm Flyout,' which causes the olecranon process to slam into it fossa, which decreases the extension range of motion of the pitching elbow.

In my 2006 Baseball Pitching Instructional Video, I show an overhead view of the 'traditional' baseball pitching motion. It clearly shows the ninety degree angle of which I speak.

'Scapula Loading' is extremely dangerous. However, the alleged safe pitching motion that Tom House is currently touting uses 'Scapula Loading' in an even more dangerous way. He calls it, 'Fast Arm.'

'Fast Arm' is the same as 'Scapula Loading,' but with another dangerous flaw added, 'Looping.' 'Looping' occurs when baseball pitchers move their pitching hand close to their head during their 'Late Pitching Forearm Turnover.' Now, with their pitching hand and baseball close to their head when they start driving their pitching elbow four feet laterally and two feet forward, their pitching hand and baseball moves in a circle backward, then outward to their pitching arm side at even greater acceleration rates than with 'Scapula Loading' alone.

'Fast Arm' actually means that baseball pitchers will destroy their pitching arms even faster. Once again, I have warned Mr. House of this danger. Therefore, for him to claim in a Court of law that he did not know that 'Fast Arm' is not safe is perjury. I recommend that the first pitcher to use 'Fast Arm' and either rupture his Ulnar Collateral Ligament or lose extension range of motion in his pitching elbow should sue Mr. House for damages.

the correct pitching motion eliminates 'Late Pitching Forearm Turnover.' Therefore, the correct pitching motion does not have 'Reverse Pitching Forearm Bounce.' This means that it is impossible for those pitchers to rupture their Ulnar Collateral Ligament. Then, because these pitchers powerfully pronate their pitching forearm before, during and after release, it is impossible for these pitchers to lose extension range of motion in their pitching elbow.end.


Dr.Marshall has been keeping up with Strassburg’s development since College by diagnosing his mechanics often. Strassburg has gone through 3 major mechanics changes since College and has changed his good pitch sequence and pitch types at the beginning of the year to a change over to a poorer supinated approach now!
He addresses the light type of scapula loading that Strasburg produces in his e-mails.


800. Stephen Strasburg

I suspect one person sends you all the emails on the various injured pitchers around baseball. Let me extend my thanks as I enjoy his mailings and your responses. I learn much from them.

In the unlikely event you don't get this, Stephen Strasburg was pulled from the lineup last night due to tightness in his shoulder.

-------------------------------------------------

Rookie righty scratched after struggling to get loose before game
By Bill Ladson
MLB.com
July 07, 2010

WASHINGTON, DC: Nationals right-hander Stephen Strasburg was scratched from Tuesday's start against the Braves after experiencing shoulder stiffness during his warm-ups in the bullpen. He is listed as day-to-day.

Instead, reliever Miguel Batista made the spot start for Washington. And he delivered with a brilliant effort, throwing five scoreless innings in his first start of the season as the Nationals shut out Braves, 3-0.

Strasburg, the No 1. overall pick in the 2009 First-Year Player Draft, was warming up just minutes before the game when pitching coach Steve McCatty and trainer Lee Kuntz noticed that something was wrong with the right-hander after eight pitches. Strasburg, who was not available for comment, told McCatty that he was stiff but could pitch in the game.

Manager Jim Riggleman and general manager Mike Rizzo were informed about Strasburg's problem, with Rizzo pulling the plug on Strasburg's start. "We are doing the right thing for him and the organization. That was it," McCatty said. "I told Strasburg, 'We are not going to take a chance.' There is no reason to."

There was no warning beforehand. Strasburg had a bullpen session during the past series in Milwaukee and played catch on Monday at Nationals Park without any problems.

"He was having problems getting loose in the bullpen, so I pulled the plug on it, precautionary move," Rizzo said. "I just didn't want him to go out there when he was struggling to get loose in the bullpen. There is no shooting of pain or anything like that in his shoulder or elbow. He was just struggling to get loose."

Strasburg had an X-ray and an MRI taken on Tuesday. Inflammation was found inside the shoulder and Rizzo would not say when Strasburg would make his next start. Before the injury was announced, Strasburg was scheduled to pitch against the Phillies on Sunday.

According to Rizzo, Strasburg had similar problems while attending San Diego State University.

"He was examined by our doctor, Dr. [Wiemi] Douoguih, who gave him the labral test and capsule test, which [showed] he was fine," Rizzo said. "The X-ray was negative, which is a good thing. We sent him for an MRI, and the MRI shows no changes from his original MRI right after we signed him. No change there. No rotator cuff damage, no labral damage, so that's good news. He is diagnosed with a little inflammation in the shoulder. He'll be on anti-inflammatories, in treatment and his status is still day-to-day. We are still not sure where he is at."

Strasburg has pitched in nine games and is 5-2 with a 2.32 ERA. He has a team-leading 75 strikeouts.

Bill Ladson is a reporter for MLB.com and writes an MLBlog, All Nats All the time. This story was not subject to the approval of Major League Baseball or its clubs.

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Dr.Marshall’s answer:

- For the past couple of years, I have chronicled my opinion of Mr. Strasburg's pitching motion. This year alone, in at least eleven emails, I have detailed the injurious flaws in Mr. Strasburg's baseball pitching motion. In #692, #705 and #788, I have made it clear why I believe that Mr. Strasburg is on the downward spiral to oblivion.

This article makes my point.

The writer wrote, "He was examined by our doctor, Dr. [Wiemi] Douoguih, who gave him the labral test and capsule test, which [showed] he was fine."

When, in March 2009, I met with Mr. Rizzo about working with the Nationals baseball pitchers, I told him that, to eliminate pitching injuries, the first thing that the Nationals need to do is to fire their orthopedic surgeon.

I do not know Dr. Douoguih. He might be a great orthopedic surgeon. But, I know that Dr. Douoguih:

01. Knows absolutely nothing about how baseball pitchers should apply force to their pitches.

02. Despite no Exercise Physiology training, will use his 'I am a degreed medical doctor' status to take charge of the Nationals baseball pitchers.

03. With all Nationals baseball pitchers with the slightest indication of discomfort, will recommend that Nationals baseball pitchers rest and atrophy.

04. Will recommend the mis-informed typical rehabilitation program that all major league medical teams follow, such as 'flat ground' throwing starting at thirty feet with the same throwing motion that caused the pitching injury.

05. Will start all Nationals baseball pitchers with any discomfort complaint on downward spirals to oblivion.

06. With Mr. Strasburg's high visibility, will be even more careful.

07. Added rest and gentle treatment will accelerate Mr. Strasburg's downward spiral to oblivion.

Add to that that Mr. Strasburg has lost my Maxline Pronation Curve and Maxline Fastball and is pulling even his Maxline Fastball Sinker and Mr. Strasburg will enter the 'I cannot feel the release of my pitches' realm.

I know that the Nationals 'traditional' baseball pitching coach has contributed to this dramatic loss of the appropriate Maxline drive force application technique and the resulting decrease in the quality of his pitches.

Nationals general manager, Mike Rizzo said, "He (Mr. Strasburg) is diagnosed with a little inflammation in the shoulder. He'll be on anti-inflammatories, in treatment and his status is still day-to-day. We are still not sure where he is at."

On ESPN, an announcer said that Mr. Strasburg has discomfort in the back of his pitching shoulder.

From the first time that I watched video of Mr. Strasburg, I predicted discomfort in the front and back of his pitching shoulder. I recently wrote that, after Mr. Strasburg pitches, he has discomfort in the front and back of his pitching shoulder.

Anti-inflammatories will not eliminate this problem.

Mr. Strasburg has to stop using his Pectoralis Major muscle to pull his pitching arm back to the pitching arm side of his body, toward home plate and across the front of his body.

In addition, Mr. Strasburg needs to pendulum swing his pitching arm downward, backward and upward to driveline height with the palm of his pitching hand facing away from his body to arrive at the same time that his glove foot lands on or to the glove side of the line from his pitching foot straight forward.

Lastly, rather than rest and anti-inflammatories, Mr. Strasburg needs to complete my 120-Day High School Baseball Pitchers Interval-Training Program. Without this base level of fitness and skill in the proper way for the pitching arm to apply force, Mr. Strasburg will continue on his downward spiral to oblivion; another great baseball pitching talent destroyed with kindness and ignorance.

GBM,
Who said I was a trained professional. It makes sense, since you really don't know (when trained professionals have trouble picking it up) see a doc first before you continue.

Actually after YB's post not gonna waste anymore bandwidth.

Perhaps you should try it Marshall's way? What do ya think about that? Your son as a pitcher might be prefectly healthy forever!!!!!

What major league pitcher does not scap load? Some have told me Pettitte, but he certainly does.

Thanks tpm, he went from 95 at FSU to hurt & 85 at TX.

TPM,

Eh eh, I once looked intot hat whole Marshall mechanics stuff and to tell you the truth, I get so lost in all the technical jargon it make smy poor tiny little brain overheat! Thats not for me.....just not for me.

And I once thought I was confusing.

TPM:

Brent Strom is a great guy & can coach the player. Few can do that. I hope to watch your kid in the majors winning 20 games.

I believe Mills is really good with mechanics but naive about PEDs. I believe Wolforth is correct about the athletic pitcher and House has great things to say but I don't believe the towel drill is helpful. I think aWolforth is wrong about weighted balls. I believe Marshall is correct that scap loading etc can hurt you.

However, Marshall doesn't have any pitchers I've ever heard of.

When a kid throws 90, his hand is moving 90. This as everyone on this thread knows is because the body chains up & the hand is at the end of the whip. A person cannot run or turn hips much over 15 mph, so most of the velocity is from the upper body, but only because the lower body got it in the position to complete the end of the chain at 90.

This unfotunately includes a scap load that increases both tension & distance to release point. This helps the hand to get to 90. However, most chains cannot sustain that force at that body speed forever. Some can until college, some minor leagues, some major leagues.

Here's the real secret few know. If you can flash velo enough to get to the next level, then back off, you can make money. If I had Stasburg, I would back off velo & let his ERA increase.

In fact, a pitcher has to get to 4 years in MLB to make real money. If a young pitcher could throw 95 in his first year & have a 3.5 era he would be an elite pitcher. If he throws slower, but has a 4.2 era, he would be average, but could pitch to real $ assuming that can get him to year 4. TPM, think about what I'm implying.

GBM,
That I agree with you on! Actually I see some of Marshall's tenets in my own player, but that doesn't always mean they came directly from him himself, but a combination of tenets that are philosophies of others as well. My understanding is that, each pitcher is different, suggestions can be made but they don't always work for each. For instance, now that son's shoulder is back to normal it was suggested that he not end his delivery with his head directly in an upwards position, but down and to the side. When doing this, he was falling off to the first base side and missing, so for him that wasn't working. Is that the right way to end your delivery? Could be but may not work for everyone. That's why I don't always beleive that what we feel is the correct and healthy way can't be achieved by each and every pitcher. Thus the risk/reward.

The addition of roving instuctors in milb has made organizations more consistant in managing their hitters and pitchers. This means what you want at the lowest level remains constant through the upper levels. It used to be that one coach did it one way, at the next level the other way. I don't know much about Strom, met him once, but most tell me he is good and able to coach well (as you indicated) and works well with the youth. But I think that what he does is more direct work with the coaches to ensure that consistancy.

FWIW, the cardinals signed a marshal guy last year, some say he was good, but the system doesn't allow an older player to take a spot for long periods of time to so he was released. Some say he wasn't allowed enough time, but that is how it is, time is not on your side in milb.

As far as making the big money, you are right, a player has to be in MLB (not milb) for 4 years before he can arbitrate with his team for more than the minimum. However, these days many players are making it sooner to the show, minimum is over 400K and begin making more money earlier. If you can stick it out you will be rewarded with a nice contract from your organization (based on your performance) until you become a free agent and then you are talking big mega bucks, more years down the road. You can make the 40 man roster while still in milb and they make about 35-40k per season, and 2200 per diem if called up. Some teams will call up those guys for a spot start for a few days to let them make some extra needed money, they are good like that.

However, for young starting pitchers, your workload is expected to be well over the 100++ mark, veterans like Chris Carpenter are close to 200, my son has logged 115 so far this year. He's getting there.

IMO, it's almost an impossible task for most, that is why I strongly beleive that young pitchers are better off with less time on the mound.

Unfortunetly the real affects of many many innings over many many years shows up later for many, those that remained healthy for years and years now starting to have issues, at 22-25. I know first you got to get there, but when you are so close, and then you have, let's say shoulder surgery, chances are you may not recover. More pitchers are let go with TJS than you can imagine because it can take years to get that pinpoint command back. If you have made it to the MLB roster and they have given you millions, then you will have quite a while to recover, others don't get that opportunity. What they will do, is fix you up where you can go out and pitch but if you are 24-25 there is little time for you to prove you can do it. Then you might get in an organization where they prefer (taking one year rent a players) veterans over youth and talent, and the young prospects sit, repeat AAA over and over.
So for those that woner why I think that the later you begin, the better off you may be, that is why, it's a looooooog road, very long, most don't make it due to injury, not lack of talent, but injury. So if you have long term hopes and dreams for your player, keep that in mind. JMO.

Very interesting discussion I heard while listening to a game one night, for those who move ahead, if you are a RHP, with velo (you don't even have to have a stellar era) and even not that affective, you get a multitude of chances, slower RHP do not, LHP do not need the velo, but rather the pinpoint accuracy and supurb breaking stuff to move forward. As an example, a young pitcher in son's organization in AAA on the 40 man roster, hit 100 but struggles at times. He is a valuable asset, for future use as a closer or trade. My son's roomate is a softer throwing LHP who is now coming into his own working under Dennis, and he can get people out with excellent breaking stuff, he most likely will also see a ML field someday, and be very effective in a match up, spot relief. You just never know.
Remain healthy and you got it made.

quote:

Originally posted by OnWabana:
Anyone have a photo or video of John Smoltz? I'm pretty sure he and Strasburg's delivery are very similar and he pitched for a long time.

-------------------

Yes, and had 4 or 5 major arm/shoulder surgeries.

quote:

However, Marshall doesn't have any pitchers I've ever heard of.

I don't want to be "a Marshall proponent." However, If you look at him objectively and weigh what he did as an MLB pitcher, value what he contributes as an academic in biokinetics, and understand that his "mission" was to educate anyone that would listen about preventing pitching arm injuries, then how can you dismiss his 40 yrs. or more of research? I talked to him in person and I can tell you he wasn't trying to put pitchers, using his revised motion, into the Majors. He merely provided a method and a means if you wanted it, to rehab injured pitching arms and more importantly, for him, was preaching about how to prevent "YOUTH" pitching arm injuries.

Maybe, just maybe, making a better pitcher and preventing pitching arm injuries aren't mutually achievable! But, in previous generations, pitchers like Warren Spahn, White Ford, Robin Roberts, Satchel Paige, Cy Young, Greg Maddux, etc, pitched decades without a serious injury. Are you, as a father, or current player willing to jeopardize the pitching arm and a future by continuing to ignore information that might prevent a serious elbow or shoulder injury? I see more and more of his teachings being used, quitely and without crediting Mr. Marshall.



My thoughts were "take what he offered about training the arm and associated ligaments to withstand the rigors of pitching while incorporating some of his basic tenents into the wind-up that protect the elbow and shoulder." Who doesn't believe in Insurance?

I continue to look for additional sources of information, even countering views, but from someone who can "talk the talk and walk the walk" with some basis of credibility.

Actually, you made my point. I think my younger kid is headed to arm problems because he will throw hard.

Marshall is probably right but
won't produce past healthy & happy. Nothing wrong with that. I believe Cadad & TPM know the risk. However, the reward is worth the risk.

My knee is blown. It happened in basketball. That sport has a great chance of injury. However, I would do it again. Just make sure your kid is ok with safe that is likely not going to make it or unsafe that will likely end in injury.

I really don't see success without risk.

gingerbreadman,

quote:

”once looked intot hat whole Marshall mechanics stuff”

Are you looking up and to the right while typing this? The whole? When did you plan on giving your son a shot at it?

quote:

”and to tell you the truth”

Even a dirtberry should be able to understand this stuff if looked into physically.

quote:

”I get so lost in all the technical jargon it make smy poor tiny little brain overheat!

Gotwood4sale can fix this, I’m pretty sure

quote:

”Thats not for me.....just not for me”.

You are correct Sir; it is not for you unless you are also throwing him BP.
It is intended for him!!!!

quote:

”And I once thought I was confusing”

You are not confusing but you may be confused although I have not seen evidence of this to many times yet. Just leave the scientific stuff to your son and he can help you through it, they are search experts.

Baseballpapa,

quote:

”his as everyone on this thread knows is because the body chains up & the hand is at the end of the whip”

I ‘m one of those threadanees that disagrees!

There are actually 4 main disconnections in the kinetic chain with the traditional pitching motion.

quote:

” person cannot run or turn hips much over 15 mph”

Plus only the last ¼ of the hips rotational length is used during the acceleration phase of the traditional pitching motion, the first ¾ ‘s of it are wasted into the humeral transition phase.

quote:

”This unfortunately includes a scap load that increases both tension & distance to release point. This helps the hand to get to 90”

Unfortunately the looping action holds little countable forwards velocity and much
angular velocity towards the ball arm side bag that must be overcome with wasted muscular contractions that have to pull the ball back towards home plate.
As seen from an overhead acceleration graph this curvilinear path gains you nothing as an advantage over a more linear longer and safer ball driveline.

quote:

”Here's the real secret few know.”

I think most baseball followers know that Maddux was capable pitching in the mid 9’s.

quote:

”If you can flash velo enough to get to the next level, then back off, you can make money.”

More likely your drop in velocity to them means you are damaged goods and you should be avoided, this is not a secret

quote:

”If I had Stasburg, I would back off velo & let his ERA increase”

Velocity has nothing to do with ERA and nothing should be done to increase it just to make some illegitimate money by scamming your teammates and the fans.

If I had Strasburg I would tell him to train correctly and get back to where he was with his pronated delivery and always throw maximally on every pitch.

quote:

” TPM, think about what I'm implying”

Planned passable decreased effort while a plausible strategy for practitioners of the injurious traditional pitching motion it is not the way an athlete with non-injurious mechanics should precede in training or competition.

TPM’s son only needs to get away from supinated pitches and his elbow discomfort would disappear, guaranteed! Even if he decreased the effort his elbow will bark at him because of his supinated pitches.

quote:

”I think my younger kid is headed to arm problems because he will throw hard. ”

Throwing hard has nothing to with arm problems and only to do with injurious mechanical positions! People throw hard with good and bad mechanics.

quote:

”Marshall is probably right “”

No probably about it, he is right! I have personally tested it for over 10 years on hundreds of youth pitchers and many adults, this is more than enough time to get results from the bottom up, unfortunately many people expect to see it from the top down, not going to happen

quote:

”won't produce past healthy & happy” ”

It’s already produced successful, healthy and happy, well, not so happy with the bottom half practitioners because nobody will hand them the ball!!!

quote:

”Nothing wrong with that. I believe Cadad & TPM know the risk. ”

The sad part here is there need not be the risk part of the equation and only the reward.

quote:

”However, the reward is worth the risk. ”

Tell that to thousands of fast twitchers that can no longer pitch at the highest level because of their fixable mechanics whom have to go through complete hip or knee replacement surgery or chronic lower back pain and the tens of thousands of youth pitchers whom will never have a chance to play at a higher level that could have enjoyed playing at any level but can’t because of this scourge.

quote:

”My knee is blown. It happened in basketball. ”

This is as poor an analogy as saying a football player has no chance of changing this outcome when I know that even QB’s have changed their force application technique to rid them selves of overhead throwing injuries that used to plague them also.
Guess who changed their mechanics 35 years ago?

quote:

”That sport has a great chance of injury. However, I would do it again”

Only this time you will let your foot turn with the knee instead of not?

quote:

”Just make sure your kid is ok with safe that is likely not going to make it or unsafe that will likely end in injury. ”

I’m confused; maybe gingerbreadman can explain what you are talking about here?

quote:

”I really don't see success without risk.”

Because you are seeing the performed injurious traditional pitching motion in all it’s glory and are accustomed to it’s poor outcomes.

You must have never heard of minimizing the risk? This is a classic technique used in all industries and even in war.

prime9,

You can’t use Dr.Marshall as one of the Marshallites he had complete knee replacement surgery a couple of years ago and I believe he has said he would have foregone his MLB experience to have his health back, after all he was offered a job at NASA after he earned his doctoral degree and by the reception he gets with his chosen path it looks as though he should have gone with like minds and helped solve the exercise in space travelers problems.

Let me see can you throw a pronated curve ball in space?

YB,
Son pronates his pitches, now what?

10 years, can you provide a list of successful college or pro players that have worked under you? Not about the ones that have not been hurt, but the ones that have moved forward, that's where risk/reward comes in.

If not, please send the hsbbweb a nice donation for all of the bandwidth you have used trying to prove your point over and over and over (is anyone really listening). Or go back and argue over at the other sites you frequent.

Waiting for the list. Thanks.

TPM,

Bump to the Marshall thread again.

Yardbird,

I went back to the threads and went to the Marshall website. Please just tell me who is successful with his mechanics. I can be convinced, but I have more hours of college than Marshall and have never been quite trusting of someone who hides behind what sounds like research and education (his terminology).

My brother is a surgeon but he tells his patient the thing in the middle of their arm is an "elbow." Marshall hides behind terminology.

Bump.

So many people talk about the scap load as a process as opposed to a result. A couple of things: 1. High level pitchers are not focused on pinching their scapulas while loading for the pitch. If they are focused on that, they are not going to be successful. The thought process must be on the location and release of the pitch. A few years ago I got into this scap load debate pretty heavily. The belief was that by stretching the muscle, a faster more powerful contraction will follow. This only works after a muscle is stretched for more than 20-25 seconds. That does not occur in the motion. What does occur is when a pitcher points his front elbow or shoulder to the target as long as possible is keeps him closed and allows for late rotation and a faster arm speed. This used to be termed a proud chest. It is like a hitter waiting on the pitch as long as possible and getting a faster swing. We need to keep exploring what makes the best so good, but let's not try to invent something that is not necessarily there and over analyze everything. Keep it simple and repeatable to be successful.

quote:

Originally posted by hsballcoach:
So many people talk about the scap load as a process as opposed to a result. A couple of things: 1. High level pitchers are not focused on pinching their scapulas while loading for the pitch. If they are focused on that, they are not going to be successful. The thought process must be on the location and release of the pitch. A few years ago I got into this scap load debate pretty heavily. The belief was that by stretching the muscle, a faster more powerful contraction will follow. This only works after a muscle is stretched for more than 20-25 seconds. That does not occur in the motion. What does occur is when a pitcher points his front elbow or shoulder to the target as long as possible is keeps him closed and allows for late rotation and a faster arm speed. This used to be termed a proud chest. It is like a hitter waiting on the pitch as long as possible and getting a faster swing. We need to keep exploring what makes the best so good, but let's not try to invent something that is not necessarily there and over analyze everything. Keep it simple and repeatable to be successful.

I will agree with that and add my 2 cets worth..

My son does this thing people call "scap loading". But he does not intentionally do this it just naturally happens when a pitcher who shows some back (his number) to the batter as he starts his windup. At some point when the torso begins to unload the result will be what appears to be a pinching of the back that some call scap loading. All it really is is like you say- the result of staying closed longer and whipping the arm through later.

hsballcoach

I wish you could coach my son -- you have a great perspective on it.

Gingerbread

I think it is a little different than staying closed longer and whipping the arm through later. However, I don't teach it either. Wolforth does, or at least did. He emphasized the scap load. When I view the Marshall throwers, they scap load, or pull the arms back at stretch phase of the delivery. Virtually all do. Strasburg scap loads but pulls his elbows above the shoulders.

Steven went from a pronated approach (sinker game) at the beginning of the season to a supinated approach now, aren’t MLB pitching coaches and trainers supposed to know what causes injuries in their athletes?

Witness the downward spiral to oblivion!
And just think the Nationals came within a decision of hiring Dr.Marshall just before spring training then chickened out.

http://mlb.mlb.com/news/articl...=....t=.jsp&c_id=mlb

YB,
Bad link, repost, must be that darn iphone!

So you are saying that sinker guys pronate?

Thanks Baseballpapa. I have always liked Texas!

Pitching is an unnatural act. There is no magic to it or any machanics that prevent injury. Only those that lessen the odds.

It is the freaks that go through 15-20 years from youth ball to professional ball without injury. That's why in almost 150 years of professional baseball the number of pitchers that never had arm injuries is incredibly small.

Think about pitching like the X games motorcycle tricks. You may pull it off for a long time but sooner or later you crash. The odds of walking away in one piece are heavily against you simply by taking the ball.

quote:

Originally posted by luv baseball:
Pitching is an unnatural act. There is no magic to it or any machanics that prevent injury. Only those that lessen the odds.

It is the freaks that go through 15-20 years from youth ball to professional ball without injury. That's why in almost 150 years of professional baseball the number of pitchers that never had arm injuries is incredibly small.

Think about pitching like the X games motorcycle tricks. You may pull it off for a long time but sooner or later you crash. The odds of walking away in one piece are heavily against you simply by taking the ball.

I understand that this line of thinking is very prevalent. However, I just can't bring myself to buy into it! Although, the human body probably wasn't created with the thought that we would "push the envelope" as far as competitive athletes do. Still, it is a remarkably enduring machine if used within it's design capabilities.

The elbow and shoulder can endure throwing and pitching. It can and has been done by far more position players than pitchers. But, more pitchers than you are crediting, made it injury free. I don't believe the non-injuries by many thru the "eons" were because they were "just freaks of nature." What movements, throwing, fit within the threshold limits of the elbow and shoulder joints? If position players can throw their entire careers without injury, and if many pitchers can, what inherently is different in what they are doing?

You mentioned motorcycle. Having ridden for over 50 yrs. I often hear people say it's only a matter of time before you go down." Now why in the world would I accept that notion? It's kind of like the sky is gonna fall.

lol

quote:

Originally posted by Prime9:
You mentioned motorcycle. Having ridden for over 50 yrs. I often hear people say it's only a matter of time before you go down." Now why in the world would I accept that notion? It's kind of like the sky is gonna fall.

lol

I had enough motorcycle wrecks for both of us. I started riding when I was 10.