My son is rising 10th grader. He 5’7 130lbs. Pitcher/MIF. He just starting strength training recently. Wanting to put on muscle to increase pitching velo and power hitting. He currently throws in low 70s. Just wondering if he puts in 10-15 lbs of muscle, how much increase in pitching velo should he expect?
Thanks
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This is a controversial subject, with many differing opinions.
There is strength. And there is functional Baseball strength. Some people will say that a kid could gain 20 pounds getting their bench press up to 400 pounds and their throwing velocity could go down, not up. I think that is potentially accurate if the athlete didn't also train for functional Baseball strength...
At any rate, you should get some interesting answers...
There are so many schools of thought on this issue it can be overwhelming. I spent about 18 months researching this topic like it was a second job. At the end of that road I ended up taking my HS sophomore son to Boston (all the way from Texas) to get on a program with Cressey Sports Performance. The reason for that is, I wanted a training program for my son that was designed for overhand throwing athletes and based on his specific needs for strength, stability and mobility.
As mentioned above, there is more to throwing harder than just getting bigger and stronger. There has to be a functional element that focuses on translating that strength to the desired outcome (throwing harder) while adding strength in areas that help prevent injury. A full understanding of the anatomy and physiology of overhand throwing is a critical element that I wanted in a trainer.
I will add, this program is not for every kid or every family. His workouts take about 2 hours to complete, require some specialty equipment that fortunately our local gym has, and the programming is 6 days a week. Our son is not driving yet so this requires my wife or I to drive him the 20 minutes to the gym every evening. It's a lot but he is all in and we are supporting him.
There are many schools of thought but at 130 he will almost certainly gain velo and power if he gains weight.
Yes it is true that at 220 you don't necessarily have more power than at 190 and losing flexibility can cost velo but it is safe to say that below 180 pounds and say 350 lb deadlift max more strength will help. So if you weigh 130 just lift heavy and put on weight, you won't get inflexible that quickly.
Now if you you weigh 200 and deadlift 400 maybe it is time to think about diminishing returns and optimize workouts in another way but at 130 you don't need to worry about this, just dead lift, bench press, squat and do chin ups with increasing weight to get strong.
You always have to consider the biggest bang for the buck. Increasing deadlift from 400 to 500 doesn't necessarily transfer to power but going from 200 to 400 certainly does. Still do some stretching to maintain flexiblity but really below 400 deadlift and 300 bench you don't need to worry about negative side effects of those lifts yet.
Sure if you bench 400 it might have negative effects on a pitchers shoulder but your kid is very far away from that.
Dominik85 posted:There are many schools of thought but at 130 he will almost certainly gain velo and power if he gains weight.
Yes it is true that at 220 you don't necessarily have more power than at 190 and losing flexibility can cost velo but it is safe to say that below 180 pounds and say 350 lb deadlift max more strength will help. So if you weigh 130 just lift heavy and put on weight, you won't get inflexible that quickly.
Now if you you weigh 200 and deadlift 400 maybe it is time to think about diminishing returns and optimize workouts in another way but at 130 you don't need to worry about this, just dead lift, bench press, squat and do chin ups with increasing weight to get strong.
You always have to consider the biggest bang for the buck. Increasing deadlift from 400 to 500 doesn't necessarily transfer to power but going from 200 to 400 certainly does. Still do some stretching to maintain flexiblity but really below 400 deadlift and 300 bench you don't need to worry about negative side effects of those lifts yet.
Sure if you bench 400 it might have negative effects on a pitchers shoulder but your kid is very far away from that.
As a pitching coach, I would never recommend dead lift, bench press, military press, or any Olympic style lifts to any pitcher. The risks outweigh the benefits. There are many safer ways to increase strength.
There are lots of ways to gain strength. There are lots of elbow injuries among pitchers. There are so many underlying factors involved with how the body moves kinetically in an optimal manner to throw a Baseball that it is foolish to speculate on what would or wouldn't work for a high school kid that none of us ever met...
Adbono is wise to point out the dangers of Olympic lifts. I tend to agree with him. I do see the value of both the Squat & Deadlift but would never have (and haven't) allowed my teenager to perform those lifts without first learning how to do them correctly & safely under the watchful eye of a qualified pro trainer/strength coach.
I don't believe in barbell bench pressing for throwing athletes. Others will disagree. I recognize that a great many college strength programs do have players performing a barbell bench press.
3and2Fastball posted:There are lots of ways to gain strength. There are lots of elbow injuries among pitchers. There are so many underlying factors involved with how the body moves kinetically in an optimal manner to throw a Baseball that it is foolish to speculate on what would or wouldn't work for a high school kid that none of us ever met...
Adbono is wise to point out the dangers of Olympic lifts. I tend to agree with him. I do see the value of both the Squat & Deadlift but would never have (and haven't) allowed my teenager to perform those lifts without first learning how to do them correctly & safely under the watchful eye of a qualified pro trainer/strength coach.
I don't believe in barbell bench pressing for throwing athletes. Others will disagree. I recognize that a great many college strength programs do have players performing a barbell bench press.
Most highschool athletes are going to be doing these lifts under the supervision of a highschool coach. Do you tell the coach you don't want your kid doing his lifting program?
22AND25 - I would, yes, if for any reason I didn't think the coach understood how to train players for functional Baseball strength. However I recognize that most people don't have that option.
My Kid doesn't play high school Baseball (he plays in a regional Spring League, instead), so it is easy for me to say that...
I will say that there are a lot of things that happen in Baseball (way too high of pitch counts, kids playing 5 games in 2 days, high school coaches that are clueless about strength training) where parents just shrug their shoulders and say "what can I do?"
We as parents tend to just let bad coaches ruin our kids' future sometimes, and it is sad to see.
Anyways, I'll end that rant. It is getting off topic. There are some truly great high school coaches out there that do understand Baseball training, and they are worth their weight in gold.
adbono posted:Dominik85 posted:There are many schools of thought but at 130 he will almost certainly gain velo and power if he gains weight.
Yes it is true that at 220 you don't necessarily have more power than at 190 and losing flexibility can cost velo but it is safe to say that below 180 pounds and say 350 lb deadlift max more strength will help. So if you weigh 130 just lift heavy and put on weight, you won't get inflexible that quickly.
Now if you you weigh 200 and deadlift 400 maybe it is time to think about diminishing returns and optimize workouts in another way but at 130 you don't need to worry about this, just dead lift, bench press, squat and do chin ups with increasing weight to get strong.
You always have to consider the biggest bang for the buck. Increasing deadlift from 400 to 500 doesn't necessarily transfer to power but going from 200 to 400 certainly does. Still do some stretching to maintain flexiblity but really below 400 deadlift and 300 bench you don't need to worry about negative side effects of those lifts yet.
Sure if you bench 400 it might have negative effects on a pitchers shoulder but your kid is very far away from that.
As a pitching coach, I would never recommend dead lift, bench press, military press, or any Olympic style lifts to any pitcher. The risks outweigh the benefits. There are many safer ways to increase strength.
I agree there are risks for pitchers especially with back squat and bench but that kid is 130 pounds and probably benches like 160 and deadlifts 200. How much risk is there for the shoulders at those weights?
Keep in mind I only coach hitters so maybe better listen to other guys
Dominik85 posted:adbono posted:Dominik85 posted:There are many schools of thought but at 130 he will almost certainly gain velo and power if he gains weight.
Yes it is true that at 220 you don't necessarily have more power than at 190 and losing flexibility can cost velo but it is safe to say that below 180 pounds and say 350 lb deadlift max more strength will help. So if you weigh 130 just lift heavy and put on weight, you won't get inflexible that quickly.
Now if you you weigh 200 and deadlift 400 maybe it is time to think about diminishing returns and optimize workouts in another way but at 130 you don't need to worry about this, just dead lift, bench press, squat and do chin ups with increasing weight to get strong.
You always have to consider the biggest bang for the buck. Increasing deadlift from 400 to 500 doesn't necessarily transfer to power but going from 200 to 400 certainly does. Still do some stretching to maintain flexiblity but really below 400 deadlift and 300 bench you don't need to worry about negative side effects of those lifts yet.
Sure if you bench 400 it might have negative effects on a pitchers shoulder but your kid is very far away from that.
As a pitching coach, I would never recommend dead lift, bench press, military press, or any Olympic style lifts to any pitcher. The risks outweigh the benefits. There are many safer ways to increase strength.
I agree there are risks for pitchers especially with back squat and bench but that kid is 130 pounds and probably benches like 160 and deadlifts 200. How much risk is there for the shoulders at those weights?
Back is as a big a risk as shoulders - no matter what amount of weight you are lifting. Most HSs have a one size fits all strength program and it’s always designed around football. It is never adjusted for baseball and even if a HS has a strength coach that doesn’t mean he is around to supervise anything the baseball players do. HS lifting for baseball players is (more often than not) not well thought out & not well supervised. I don’t need to hear objections from HS coaches screaming foul. If you are doing it right, good for you. You should be. But most aren’t.
We need to be careful about advising a rising 10th grader who weighs 130 and just started strength training recently to start thinking about targeting max weights. Unfortunately, there are no shortcuts here. The player/athlete (and parent if feasible) need to become educated and that isn't an easy path as there are definitely conflicting schools of thought and many pitfalls. As adbono says, even many of the "good" S&C guys at HS's and colleges are working off of a football or old traditional lifting program, likely not the best for baseball specific S&C.
Kickin', for now, I would suggest becoming very familiar with the Jaeger band and long toss program, making sure the player is using proper basic lifting technique with his current strength program, making sure the player has throwing mechanics checked with some regularity and begin the education process on what is best for S&C for a baseball player that is, in part, a pitcher. This will put him off on a good start with a good foundation and then you can go from there.
There are many threads on this site that you can search that will provide a start to that learning process as well as steer you to what are considered the best authorities and resources on the topic.
I agree about not thinking about max right away. Imo you should do at least half a year of "technique lifting" with not so heavy weights before you start progressive overloading. Ideally you have prepared the body for the lifts before with BWEs.
I like kids to do BWEs till like age 13 and prepare the body with exercises like med ball overhead squats, push ups, planks and so on and then when you start weights do at least half a year mostly technique work with lighter weights before you start really increasing weight.
Problem is many kids can't even hip hinge, control the spine, knee valgus angle and other stuff and if you start progressive overloading without preparation it might lead to injury.
My has been medicine ball, bands, and some BWE exercises already. Just wondering if he can pick 10-15 lbs of muscle, especially in his legs if he should expect his velo to increase by a few mph or possible more?
Kickinchickins posted:My has been medicine ball, bands, and some BWE exercises already. Just wondering if he can pick 10-15 lbs of muscle, especially in his legs if he should expect his velo to increase by a few mph or possible more?
Absolutely, especially if he uses it properly. If he just does the basics and makes sure throwing mechanics are pretty solid, he will make significant gains just via maturation over the next few years. Proper S&C will allow something closer to maximization.
Sometimes at that age it can be a challenge to put any extra muscle on a small, lean frame. Their high metabolism requires more calories just to maintain normal teen growth pattern. But most will naturally put on added muscle in those years. Again, proper S&C...
Read up on Starting Strength Linear Progression. While I wouldn't recommend all the exercises in it for a baseball player, the theory and science behind it holds true.
A novice trainee can do almost any program that has progressive overload and as long as they don't injure themselves see gains pretty quickly.
My son progressed from 78 rising soph -> 85 rising junior -> 90 rising senior and his strength progressed about the same. I trained him his first year, but then have hime at a place that knows a lot more than me, and trains in a similar vein as CSP (they even have some of their ex-interns).
It's not just about strength, you need to convert that into power/usable strength. But strength is the base for a lot.
While my son doesn't do any olympic lifts, safety bar squats (takes load off shoulders) , trap bar deadlifts, and single leg work like read lunges, and single arm dumbbell bench are a big part of his program. I'd suggest you check out Tread Athletics, and Dr. Heenan's stuff as well.
22and25 posted:There are so many schools of thought on this issue it can be overwhelming. I spent about 18 months researching this topic like it was a second job. At the end of that road I ended up taking my HS sophomore son to Boston (all the way from Texas) to get on a program with Cressey Sports Performance. The reason for that is, I wanted a training program for my son that was designed for overhand throwing athletes and based on his specific needs for strength, stability and mobility.
As mentioned above, there is more to throwing harder than just getting bigger and stronger. There has to be a functional element that focuses on translating that strength to the desired outcome (throwing harder) while adding strength in areas that help prevent injury. A full understanding of the anatomy and physiology of overhand throwing is a critical element that I wanted in a trainer.
I will add, this program is not for every kid or every family. His workouts take about 2 hours to complete, require some specialty equipment that fortunately our local gym has, and the programming is 6 days a week. Our son is not driving yet so this requires my wife or I to drive him the 20 minutes to the gym every evening. It's a lot but he is all in and we are supporting him.
This! This! This! Have my grad degree in performance enhancement & injury prevention and paid to have our son visit Cressey Sports Performance for full assessment and online training program, that also included the option to train in-house when he was able, while he was playing summer ball in CT this summer. I have been following Eric for a long time and IMO, there is no one better in the industry! His staff are unbelievably professional and work their butts off! I tagged along with my son, when he had day off, to visit CSP (think he was more excited for me knowing how much I think of EC). Within minutes of arriving and beginning his foam rolling routine, my son had a CSP trainer check in with him to see if he needed any guidance, despite the place being full of trainees. There is no standing around with trainers and they are actively engaged with trainees! We also met the asst. pitching coordinator who my son later worked with on a couple of occasions.
When you train online, they provide the programming and a complete listing of all exercises with video links. Again, it is second to none. Highly recommend and wish we would have hooked him up sooner!!!
Kickinchickins posted:My son is rising 10th grader. He 5’7 130lbs. Pitcher/MIF. He just starting strength training recently. Wanting to put on muscle to increase pitching velo and power hitting. He currently throws in low 70s. Just wondering if he puts in 10-15 lbs of muscle, how much increase in pitching velo should he expect?
Thanks
I take my son beginning of the year and at the end of the year to a local pro, every since my son was 8 years old. We look at his mechanics at the beginning of the season and reinforce and clean up after the fall season to make sure he didn't pick up any bad habits during the year. The local pro ensures me that my son has good pitching mechanics (not great), with this said, my son was 5'6" and 105ish throwing 71-72 last year, the pro stated that if he gained another 10-15lbs he would hit 75 and potentially make Varsity as a Freshman, so we worked on gaining weight and working out his core and legs, when he hit somewhere around 115+lbs he hit 75mph, not once but was consistently hitting 75. Now he is 5'9" and 125, the pro informed us if he gained another 15 or 20lbs from 115, he would hit 80. The last tryout few weeks ago he consistently hit 77, yesterday after a long toss session, I sat down on my customary bucket and caught, not fun anymore, he was throwing from flat ground, I can catch his fastball coming at me, anything high and outside I can't catch up like I use to. Definitely he is throwing much faster than 75 that i can tell as his ball is slowing flattening out. I hate his 2 seam and curve mostly, they run into and drive down my thumb as to break it, everytime I wince, he chuckles.
My 2cents, you may find little more velocity if his mechanics is leaking somewhere and definitely a good core leg workouts won't hurt either.
adbono posted:Dominik85 posted:There are many schools of thought but at 130 he will almost certainly gain velo and power if he gains weight.
Yes it is true that at 220 you don't necessarily have more power than at 190 and losing flexibility can cost velo but it is safe to say that below 180 pounds and say 350 lb deadlift max more strength will help. So if you weigh 130 just lift heavy and put on weight, you won't get inflexible that quickly.
Now if you you weigh 200 and deadlift 400 maybe it is time to think about diminishing returns and optimize workouts in another way but at 130 you don't need to worry about this, just dead lift, bench press, squat and do chin ups with increasing weight to get strong.
You always have to consider the biggest bang for the buck. Increasing deadlift from 400 to 500 doesn't necessarily transfer to power but going from 200 to 400 certainly does. Still do some stretching to maintain flexiblity but really below 400 deadlift and 300 bench you don't need to worry about negative side effects of those lifts yet.
Sure if you bench 400 it might have negative effects on a pitchers shoulder but your kid is very far away from that.
As a pitching coach, I would never recommend dead lift, bench press, military press, or any Olympic style lifts to any pitcher. The risks outweigh the benefits. There are many safer ways to increase strength.
It would be helpful if we could back up our statements as to give insight to those who are not familiar with lifting weights.
For Example:
I would not recommend Clean and Jerk, the clean which is same as dead lift motion, i would be ok with, but the jerk when you slam your elbow out and having all the weight pressure hit on the elbow may cause injury for a pitcher.
Squat I would be ok with as long as I am not maxing out and at his age, I would lift like a long distance runner vs a sprinter. Lifting lite with many reps vs Lifting heavy with just few reps.
I would highly recommend seeking a professional before lifting weights so that the player understands how to lift, but also what to lift, just because you know how to lift a lift correctly doesn't mean the player should be performing it.
D6L,
I will back up anything I say in a PM
I would make sure he is working with a guy who knows baseball. Someone who is having him lift with intent based on his goals and position. My son does strength training outside of school 4X a week, but it is mostly explosive actions. They are also on a meal plan to gain. My son is 6'2 200 and goal is 210.
adbono posted:D6L,
I will back up anything I say in a PM
Why in a PM? You made the following statement: "As a pitching coach, I would never recommend dead lift, bench press, military press, or any Olympic style lifts to any pitcher. The risks outweigh the benefits. There are many safer ways to increase strength." In a subsequent post, you make a good point regarding HS strength training which would connect the dots to your first post if you had not included "I would never recommend.." Are you expecting anyone who reads your post to just take your word for it, especially when you note that you are a PC?
There are a lot of parents/players who come to this board looking for sound advice. I thought D6L made an excellent point in asking that you clarify. As a guy who has done a fair amount of coaching in the weightroom working with HS athletes from a variety of sports, I don't have a clue why you would completely eliminate the bilateral DL for a pitcher. I would argue that it is a great exercise for pitchers when performed correctly, complimented by unilateral lower-body exercises, and as Dominik pointed out, a player or coach realizes that there is a point of diminishing returns in terms of max weight. Also important to note that there are several variations of the DL with the trap-bar DL being more user friendly for beginners and those with less mobility. Then there is the straight-bar DL along with sumo DL. Any one of these can be a great tool in the tool-belt for a pitcher when it is coached well, performed correctly, and selected based on the individual needs of each pitcher.
I don't mean to come across as an arse but I am sensitive to any strength training advice that is not supported in some way. I have seen countless examples of athletes who follow the advice of some local so-called expert, only to find themselves miss out on opportunities (due to poor programming), lose playing time (due to injury), etc. As I like to tell all athletes and parents, learn to ask why.
COACHLD, you pretty much answered your own question as to why I won’t get into a public debate with you on this forum regarding this topic. There is nothing I can say that will change your beliefs so I’m not going to waste my time and energy. Your statements about what is and isn’t good for pitchers are all based on “proper technique and proper supervision.” My contention is at the HS level one or both of those things NEVER happen. Not for baseball players. Add teenage male testosterone to the equation and you have a recipe for disaster. The easiest solution while on the HS campus is to avoid the lifts I mentioned altogether. If you want to pay for personal training then I would relax my position somewhat. BTW, my opinion on pitchers avoiding the lifts I mentioned are shared by a couple notable orthopedic surgeons in the DFW area. They have seen plenty of damage that occurred in the HS weight room. There are plenty of ways to build strength without taking a big injury risk.
I agree with you. I don't want my son lifting in the HS weight room unsupervised.....or in my son's case "supervised by the dude that does crossfit and is now going to work with the HS teams"
I should have clarified, my son goes to a facility that has experience training baseball players.
Not to pile on, but as a parent this kind of argument is maddening. Making strong statements about training methods, for or against, with no willingness to support your position or no authority to draw from, other than "a couple of unnamed orthopods who said some stuff", is simply noise that is at best a waste of time and at worst detrimental to the player's development or health.
I don't see how asking you to support your very strong recommendations with a little bit of your qualifications to make them or some actual scientific basis is asking too much. That's not arguing, it's simply establishing some credibility.
As to avoiding these lifts at school, how does that work? Should a kid who is fighting for playing time and/or a spot on a roster tell his coach some guy on the internet said he shouldn't do the coach's program so he is going to sit out today? Maybe he could ask the coach for a special program just for him? Sounds like a great way to end up on the Cross Country team, not that there is anything wrong with that☺.
adbono posted:COACHLD, you pretty much answered your own question as to why I won’t get into a public debate with you on this forum regarding this topic. There is nothing I can say that will change your beliefs so I’m not going to waste my time and energy. Your statements about what is and isn’t good for pitchers are all based on “proper technique and proper supervision.” My contention is at the HS level one or both of those things NEVER happen. Not for baseball players. Add teenage male testosterone to the equation and you have a recipe for disaster. The easiest solution while on the HS campus is to avoid the lifts I mentioned altogether. If you want to pay for personal training then I would relax my position somewhat. BTW, my opinion on pitchers avoiding the lifts I mentioned are shared by a couple notable orthopedic surgeons in the DFW area. They have seen plenty of damage that occurred in the HS weight room. There are plenty of ways to build strength without taking a big injury risk.
Wow! I was not trying to get in a public debate with you. I was just trying to point out that D6L had a valid point by asking for a why? In your initial post you did not mention HS weight rooms, you simply said "I would never recommend deadlift,..." I happen to agree with you regarding the other exercises but again, think D6L deserves a more thorough explanation of why those lifts are not beneficial to pitchers. I don't think anyone on this board is interested in getting an anatomy, biomechanics, etc. lesson but think we owe it to them to provide a little more detail.
BTW, I also agree with you that most HS weightrooms, along with the coaching that takes places in them, are bad to say the least. I have seen many and can only think of 2 that would pass my safety standards. However, there are some really good private performance training coaches out there who do a phenomenal job at safely improving performance at all age levels.
I would also add that it is sometimes safer to have someone teach a young athlete how to safely perform things like the straight-bar bench press so that if/when they are in a situation where they are required to perform said exercise(for pitchers or overhead athletes), they can do so without injuring themselves.
COACHLD, no harm, no foul. It’s all good.
A little DL anecdote: I’ve been lifting heavy weights for over 30 years (ugh). After dead lifting one day this summer, my daughter asked if my back hurts. I said no, why? “Johnny saw you at the gym and said you’re rolling your back.” My first reaction was “ who the F is this 18 yo punk telling me how to lift weights?”
Low an behold, next time going I watched my form and sure enough, Johnny was right. Bottom line, just like everything, you can get into bad habits, no matter how long you’ve been doing something. It’s best to have a trained eye, watching you....every time if you’re a young kid.
To the OP from an old lifter and a RHP son playing D1, my son has never benched in his life. He didn’t hit the weights until he was 17, and even that was too son for me. Be careful in the weight room. I prefer long toss, band work and old fashioned push up and pulls ups while his body is growing.
22and25 posted:Not to pile on, but as a parent this kind of argument is maddening. Making strong statements about training methods, for or against, with no willingness to support your position or no authority to draw from, other than "a couple of unnamed orthopods who said some stuff", is simply noise that is at best a waste of time and at worst detrimental to the player's development or health.
I don't see how asking you to support your very strong recommendations with a little bit of your qualifications to make them or some actual scientific basis is asking too much. That's not arguing, it's simply establishing some credibility.
As to avoiding these lifts at school, how does that work? Should a kid who is fighting for playing time and/or a spot on a roster tell his coach some guy on the internet said he shouldn't do the coach's program so he is going to sit out today? Maybe he could ask the coach for a special program just for him? Sounds like a great way to end up on the Cross Country team, not that there is anything wrong with that☺.
I see that you have been a member of this site for 2 weeks. Welcome ! One of the coolest things about the members on here is that they come from all walks of baseball life. There are HS coaches, travel ball coaches, HS players, college players, college coaches, MLB scouts, advisors, talent evaluators, sports agents, private instructors, parents, umpires, business owners, etc. So when you get into a discussion on here you never know who you might be talking to and what their perspective is. I’m not going to lay my baseball resume out for you, but I have one and it’s pretty extensive. When I comment on this site it is from the perspective of experience, influence, and connections. Those are the things I have to offer. And I have used those things to help people on this site when opportunity presents. I’m not Jerry Ford but I’m not “some guy on the internet” either. I will leave it at that.
CTbballDad posted:A little DL anecdote: I’ve been lifting heavy weights for over 30 years (ugh). After dead lifting one day this summer, my daughter asked if my back hurts. I said no, why? “Johnny saw you at the gym and said you’re rolling your back.” My first reaction was “ who the F is this 18 yo punk telling me how to lift weights?”
Low an behold, next time going I watched my form and sure enough, Johnny was right. Bottom line, just like everything, you can get into bad habits, no matter how long you’ve been doing something. It’s best to have a trained eye, watching you....every time if you’re a young kid.
To the OP from an old lifter and a RHP son playing D1, my son has never benched in his life. He didn’t hit the weights until he was 17, and even that was too son for me. Be careful in the weight room. I prefer long toss, band work and old fashioned push up and pulls ups while his body is growing.
Good stuff. I actually lift at the same gym as my sons. The same trainers do my programming (as well as the other gen pop folks going there) Don't have back issues, but have a shoulder issue that keeps me from low bar back squatting too often. Will likely compete in a power lift comp next year, but have competed in several Strongfirst TCS events.
adbono posted:22and25 posted:Not to pile on, but as a parent this kind of argument is maddening. Making strong statements about training methods, for or against, with no willingness to support your position or no authority to draw from, other than "a couple of unnamed orthopods who said some stuff", is simply noise that is at best a waste of time and at worst detrimental to the player's development or health.
I don't see how asking you to support your very strong recommendations with a little bit of your qualifications to make them or some actual scientific basis is asking too much. That's not arguing, it's simply establishing some credibility.
As to avoiding these lifts at school, how does that work? Should a kid who is fighting for playing time and/or a spot on a roster tell his coach some guy on the internet said he shouldn't do the coach's program so he is going to sit out today? Maybe he could ask the coach for a special program just for him? Sounds like a great way to end up on the Cross Country team, not that there is anything wrong with that☺.
I see that you have been a member of this site for 2 weeks. Welcome ! One of the coolest things about the members on here is that they come from all walks of baseball life. There are HS coaches, travel ball coaches, HS players, college players, college coaches, MLB scouts, advisors, talent evaluators, sports agents, private instructors, parents, umpires, business owners, etc. So when you get into a discussion on here you never know who you might be talking to and what their perspective is. I’m not going to lay my baseball resume out for you, but I have one and it’s pretty extensive. When I comment on this site it is from the perspective of experience, influence, and connections. Those are the things I have to offer. And I have used those things to help people on this site when opportunity presents. I’m not Jerry Ford but I’m not “some guy on the internet” either. I will leave it at that.
Not trying to pick a fight. You certainly don't owe anyone here, including me, an explanation as you are here offering your experience and guidance free of charge.
My point is just one parent's perspective as I stated upfront. Your post was but one example of what I see as a broader issue for parents and players. Every field, turf filled building and baseball website is full of "experts" when it comes to this game and many of them expect players and parents to accept what they say on blind faith. Not singling you out as it seem to be pervasive throughout the culture of the baseball business.
I am sure you see people in this business peddling "knowledge" that you know is wrong or outright harmful. In fact, as a pitching coach, I bet you can think of a handful of your competitors that you consider to be total hacks. Without a doubt some of those hacks are sitting on a bucket right now collecting $90 an hour for dispensing "knowledge" to some player. They may well hop on this or other websites from time to time to share their "expertise". As a parent or player, how exactly do I separate the chit from the Shinola without asking questions or trying to verify someone's credentials?
Again, not trying to make waves here. Just sharing the frustration of one parent trying to navigate this world and often getting a different opinion on the same topic from just about everyone asked.
22and25 posted:adbono posted:22and25 posted:Not to pile on, but as a parent this kind of argument is maddening. Making strong statements about training methods, for or against, with no willingness to support your position or no authority to draw from, other than "a couple of unnamed orthopods who said some stuff", is simply noise that is at best a waste of time and at worst detrimental to the player's development or health.
I don't see how asking you to support your very strong recommendations with a little bit of your qualifications to make them or some actual scientific basis is asking too much. That's not arguing, it's simply establishing some credibility.
As to avoiding these lifts at school, how does that work? Should a kid who is fighting for playing time and/or a spot on a roster tell his coach some guy on the internet said he shouldn't do the coach's program so he is going to sit out today? Maybe he could ask the coach for a special program just for him? Sounds like a great way to end up on the Cross Country team, not that there is anything wrong with that☺.
I see that you have been a member of this site for 2 weeks. Welcome ! One of the coolest things about the members on here is that they come from all walks of baseball life. There are HS coaches, travel ball coaches, HS players, college players, college coaches, MLB scouts, advisors, talent evaluators, sports agents, private instructors, parents, umpires, business owners, etc. So when you get into a discussion on here you never know who you might be talking to and what their perspective is. I’m not going to lay my baseball resume out for you, but I have one and it’s pretty extensive. When I comment on this site it is from the perspective of experience, influence, and connections. Those are the things I have to offer. And I have used those things to help people on this site when opportunity presents. I’m not Jerry Ford but I’m not “some guy on the internet” either. I will leave it at that.
Not trying to pick a fight. You certainly don't owe anyone here, including me, an explanation as you are here offering your experience and guidance free of charge.
My point is just one parent's perspective as I stated upfront. Your post was but one example of what I see as a broader issue for parents and players. Every field, turf filled building and baseball website is full of "experts" when it comes to this game and many of them expect players and parents to accept what they say on blind faith. Not singling you out as it seem to be pervasive throughout the culture of the baseball business.
I am sure you see people in this business peddling "knowledge" that you know is wrong or outright harmful. In fact, as a pitching coach, I bet you can think of a handful of your competitors that you consider to be total hacks. Without a doubt some of those hacks are sitting on a bucket right now collecting $90 an hour for dispensing "knowledge" to some player. They may well hop on this or other websites from time to time to share their "expertise". As a parent or player, how exactly do I separate the chit from the Shinola without asking questions or trying to verify someone's credentials?
Again, not trying to make waves here. Just sharing the frustration of one parent trying to navigate this world and often getting a different opinion on the same topic from just about everyone asked.
I understand your frustration. The process of sailing thru the baseball experience is not easy water to navigate. I made more than my share of my own mistakes first time around. There are many great threads that you can find if you search by topic. I suggest you start with that. Once you read enough you will find people that you align with and you can reach out to them once you figure out who they are. Sending a PM is a good way to initiate that. You can also post a topic and see what kind of replies you get. The more research you do the better things will turn out. There really are a lot of people on this site that are very helpful and happy to share their knowledge (which is almost always based on experience).
There are risks in everything we do and we don't do. Almost all workouts for velo, i've heard stories of someone hurting themselves.
In HS I played football, lifted weights in the weight room. If I want to get my son buff and bulky it's easy to do, I have plenty of experience.
Unfortunately he is lanky and he likes to pitch, though I played baseball but not at his level, I am learning and always student of the game in all aspects. I continually like to educate myself and ask questions. At this point I am not sure if one specific exercise is the magic pill or is it that he gained 15lbs or maybe grew another 3 inches or did more core workout during the winter that we saw improvement with his velo. I believe there are so many variables at this stage of their life, but one thing for sure that i've noticed while coaching 4-5 year olds, some have an arm and some don't. I am not saying they are accurate, but when that little johnny holds the ball and flings, it moves differently from ALL of other boys and I think that's that 1%, the natural, we the rest of 99% try to achieve.
Regardless of what w/o you do, you better LOVE it and work your A$$ off. As a pitcher, it will be your best friend for velo gains and most importantly......durability.
D6L posted:There are risks in everything we do and we don't do. Almost all workouts for velo, i've heard stories of someone hurting themselves.
In HS I played football, lifted weights in the weight room. If I want to get my son buff and bulky it's easy to do, I have plenty of experience.
Unfortunately he is lanky and he likes to pitch, though I played baseball but not at his level, I am learning and always student of the game in all aspects. I continually like to educate myself and ask questions. At this point I am not sure if one specific exercise is the magic pill or is it that he gained 15lbs or maybe grew another 3 inches or did more core workout during the winter that we saw improvement with his velo. I believe there are so many variables at this stage of their life, but one thing for sure that i've noticed while coaching 4-5 year olds, some have an arm and some don't. I am not saying they are accurate, but when that little johnny holds the ball and flings, it moves differently from ALL of other boys and I think that's that 1%, the natural, we the rest of 99% try to achieve.
The 1% of 4-5 year olds is exactly who he is competing with for college roster spots. Everybody is from that 1%
Lifting for football is completely different than lifting for Baseball
3and2Fastball posted:D6L posted:There are risks in everything we do and we don't do. Almost all workouts for velo, i've heard stories of someone hurting themselves.
In HS I played football, lifted weights in the weight room. If I want to get my son buff and bulky it's easy to do, I have plenty of experience.
Unfortunately he is lanky and he likes to pitch, though I played baseball but not at his level, I am learning and always student of the game in all aspects. I continually like to educate myself and ask questions. At this point I am not sure if one specific exercise is the magic pill or is it that he gained 15lbs or maybe grew another 3 inches or did more core workout during the winter that we saw improvement with his velo. I believe there are so many variables at this stage of their life, but one thing for sure that i've noticed while coaching 4-5 year olds, some have an arm and some don't. I am not saying they are accurate, but when that little johnny holds the ball and flings, it moves differently from ALL of other boys and I think that's that 1%, the natural, we the rest of 99% try to achieve.
The 1% of 4-5 year olds is exactly who he is competing with for college roster spots. Everybody is from that 1%
Lifting for football is completely different than lifting for Baseball
Gotta say I have never seen the phrase “coaching 4-5 year olds” on any thread on this board ever before. Or anywhere for that matter. I guess we can look forward to seeing their measurables being posted. I’m wondering, for a 4 year old, would it be pop time or poop time ?
adbono posted:3and2Fastball posted:D6L posted:There are risks in everything we do and we don't do. Almost all workouts for velo, i've heard stories of someone hurting themselves.
In HS I played football, lifted weights in the weight room. If I want to get my son buff and bulky it's easy to do, I have plenty of experience.
Unfortunately he is lanky and he likes to pitch, though I played baseball but not at his level, I am learning and always student of the game in all aspects. I continually like to educate myself and ask questions. At this point I am not sure if one specific exercise is the magic pill or is it that he gained 15lbs or maybe grew another 3 inches or did more core workout during the winter that we saw improvement with his velo. I believe there are so many variables at this stage of their life, but one thing for sure that i've noticed while coaching 4-5 year olds, some have an arm and some don't. I am not saying they are accurate, but when that little johnny holds the ball and flings, it moves differently from ALL of other boys and I think that's that 1%, the natural, we the rest of 99% try to achieve.
The 1% of 4-5 year olds is exactly who he is competing with for college roster spots. Everybody is from that 1%
Lifting for football is completely different than lifting for Baseball
Gotta say I have never seen the phrase “coaching 4-5 year olds” on any thread on this board ever before. Or anywhere for that matter. I guess we can look forward to seeing their measurables being posted. I’m wondering, for a 4 year old, would it be pop time or poop time ?
In the 10 years of coaching little children, I had ONE child whenever he grabbed a baseball, the parents grabbed their kids! You can make it as comical as you want it to be!
I realize there are a few lifts that baseball guys need to be careful about (and maybe not do) and some focus on the core is important, but I think you make a big mistake if a high school player with college aspirations isn't in the weight room with a football-esque lifting plan with a plan to get bigger, stronger, faster. My 2020 loves the weight room to a point of addiction and in one year added 20 lbs and had big gains on all major lifts and his OF velo went from 79 to 92, exit velo from 86 to 98, and 60 went from 7.2 to 6.7. I don't know what else to attribute those gains across the board. Its something that almost none of his peers have done and has been a huge competitive advantage and was one of the things his mid-major D1 that he committed to mentioned about what they liked about him. If you see pro players up close, they often look like football players. They are gigantic...legs like tree trunks...bowling balls for arms.
So, my take on throwing harder that seems to be be in line with Cressey, Driveline and others is something like: Lift like an animal and throw the crap out of the ball in your training (intent).
Just as one last thought, I do know several kids that just throw hard with almost no commitment to the weight room. I guess my point is that the thought leaders tend to believe strongly in the weight room and pro athletes seem to be all about it and my experience with my 2020 is in line with that.
BPGuyfor2020 posted:Just as one last thought, I do know several kids that just throw hard with almost no commitment to the weight room. I guess my point is that the thought leaders tend to believe strongly in the weight room and pro athletes seem to be all about it and my experience with my 2020 is in line with that.
I agree with you on most part, but I think it will be different kind of weight program, pitcher vs hitter. Most parents have kids that are 2 way player at this stage. I am not an expert so I am not sure 100% if heavy upper body lift will benefit a pitcher, as the legs are doing the lifting. But there is elite velo and good velo, a good velo can be attained through hard work, elite velo is something you have and comes naturally.
