Strength training for Velo

D6L posted:

BPGuyfor2020 posted:

Just as one last thought, I do know several kids that just throw hard with almost no commitment to the weight room.  I guess my point is that the thought leaders tend to believe strongly in the weight room and pro athletes seem to be all about it and my experience with my 2020 is in line with that.  

I agree with you on most part, but I think it will be different kind of weight program, pitcher vs hitter.  Most parents have kids that are 2 way player at this stage.  I am not an expert so I am not sure 100% if heavy upper body lift will benefit a pitcher, as the legs are doing the lifting.  But there is elite velo and good velo, a good velo can be attained through hard work, elite velo is something you have and comes naturally.

Not sure what your definition of elite velo is, but velo can certainly be developed. I do think there is a genetic limit that most don't reach, and the 1% do.

There is so much variance in the development of young kids that's it's going to be close to impossible to predict anything from their performance.

nycdad posted:

D6L posted:

BPGuyfor2020 posted:

Just as one last thought, I do know several kids that just throw hard with almost no commitment to the weight room.  I guess my point is that the thought leaders tend to believe strongly in the weight room and pro athletes seem to be all about it and my experience with my 2020 is in line with that.  

I agree with you on most part, but I think it will be different kind of weight program, pitcher vs hitter.  Most parents have kids that are 2 way player at this stage.  I am not an expert so I am not sure 100% if heavy upper body lift will benefit a pitcher, as the legs are doing the lifting.  But there is elite velo and good velo, a good velo can be attained through hard work, elite velo is something you have and comes naturally.

Not sure what your definition of elite velo is, but velo can certainly be developed. I do think there is a genetic limit that most don't reach, and the 1% do.

There is so much variance in the development of young kids that's it's going to be close to impossible to predict anything from their performance.

 

I consider an elite velo like this.  When our johnny was 10u we went to a tournament where almost every team was either a tournament champion or a very strong team, the whos who of east coast.  Every 10 year old had good velo on their respective team, now there was this whisper of one pitcher who was throwing 65+, who everyone wanted to see, when you looked around their field when he was on the bump, it was filled with parents and spectators from other teams, not watching their johnny.  And he did not disappoint!

He was a bigger build player 5'8+ and 120lbs+, a lot bigger than most of the kids at the tournament, now what if a johnny who is 4'8 and 80lbs and threw 55+, I would argue that it would be an elite velo for his size and age.

D6L posted:

nycdad posted:

D6L posted:

BPGuyfor2020 posted:

Just as one last thought, I do know several kids that just throw hard with almost no commitment to the weight room.  I guess my point is that the thought leaders tend to believe strongly in the weight room and pro athletes seem to be all about it and my experience with my 2020 is in line with that.  

I agree with you on most part, but I think it will be different kind of weight program, pitcher vs hitter.  Most parents have kids that are 2 way player at this stage.  I am not an expert so I am not sure 100% if heavy upper body lift will benefit a pitcher, as the legs are doing the lifting.  But there is elite velo and good velo, a good velo can be attained through hard work, elite velo is something you have and comes naturally.

Not sure what your definition of elite velo is, but velo can certainly be developed. I do think there is a genetic limit that most don't reach, and the 1% do.

There is so much variance in the development of young kids that's it's going to be close to impossible to predict anything from their performance.

 

I consider an elite velo like this.  When our johnny was 10u we went to a tournament where almost every team was either a tournament champion or a very strong team, the whos who of east coast.  Every 10 year old had good velo on their respective team, now there was this whisper of one pitcher who was throwing 65+, who everyone wanted to see, when you looked around their field when he was on the bump, it was filled with parents and spectators from other teams, not watching their johnny.  And he did not disappoint!

He was a bigger build player 5'8+ and 120lbs+, a lot bigger than most of the kids at the tournament, now what if a johnny who is 4'8 and 80lbs and threw 55+, I would argue that it would be an elite velo for his size and age.

What happens at 10u is absolutely irrelevant to future success.  My youngest son threw absolute gas for this age, gunned multiple times in 9U at 63 mph.  Teams reached out to offer to fly him to tournaments, which we politely declined.  He was kinda tall for his age but not big.  Just great timing and mechanics.  At 12U he sat 66 to 67 and a lot of kids had caught up.   Still good velo but not off the charts by any stretch.  Where will he end up....absolutely no telling as there is nothing predictive about early velo.

If anything the 10U uber pitchers are in a detrimental position.  Their arms get used up chasing meaningless plastic trophies before they are even teenagers.  I've seen a lot of kids who had "the best arms" at 10 or 11 who are noodle arms at 17.  

Kids develop at different ages, too.  It all evens out.  I've seen lots of kids who threw 70 at 14 and throw 75 at 17...

I will say, a lot of the players that were good at 10U are still good going forward. Sure many kids burn out, but if you look at a D1 college roster, I'm going to guess *most* of those kids were very good at 10U.

My 2022 has been playing against a kid that was the best at his age at 10U, probably threw 70+, at 14U has hit 94, and is the #1 ranked player in his state.

Boy did this thread take left turn at Albuquerque or what? We are talking about coaching 4 year olds and Velo of 10 year olds ?! Geez!!

If you want to throw hard there are a number of things you should do that get mentioned a lot on here. Proper weight training is one of them. Proper being the key word in that sentence. Proper use of weighted balls, increasing core strength, increasing flexibility (yoga is great) are all recommended things. But what doesn’t get mentioned a lot are 2 things that are critical to the process of throwing harder. The first thing is that it all begins with a decision to try and throw harder. As simple as that sounds it is a barrier for a lot of kids. The second thing is that if you want to throw harder, along with doing all the other stuff noted above, you have to throw more often.  That doesn’t mean throw more pitches in games, it means incorporate more throwing into your workouts. Arm strength is built primarily by throwing the ball, IMO, and you have to throw to get a stronger arm. 

adbono posted:

The first thing is that it all begins with a decision to try and throw harder. As simple as that sounds it is a barrier for a lot of kids. The second thing is that if you want to throw harder, along with doing all the other stuff noted above, you have to throw more often.  That doesn’t mean throw more pitches in games, it means incorporate more throwing into your workouts. Arm strength is built primarily by throwing the ball, IMO, and you have to throw to get a stronger arm. 

This is very good advice.  I have a follow up question, if you don't mind.

We live in an era of Tommy John.  Kids are seeing their peers get Tommy John.  Teenagers with torn UCL's.  And I think that breeds some fear into kids to not want to overdo it.  Overcoming that fear is essential.  As is working smart.

So that leads me to my follow up question(s):

How many times a week should a kid throw?  Should they be throwing their hardest every day that they throw?  

velo = 85% technique + 10% mass + 5% strength

3and2Fastball posted:

adbono posted:

The first thing is that it all begins with a decision to try and throw harder. As simple as that sounds it is a barrier for a lot of kids. The second thing is that if you want to throw harder, along with doing all the other stuff noted above, you have to throw more often.  That doesn’t mean throw more pitches in games, it means incorporate more throwing into your workouts. Arm strength is built primarily by throwing the ball, IMO, and you have to throw to get a stronger arm. 

This is very good advice.  I have a follow up question, if you don't mind.

We live in an era of Tommy John.  Kids are seeing their peers get Tommy John.  Teenagers with torn UCL's.  And I think that breeds some fear into kids to not want to overdo it.  Overcoming that fear is essential.  As is working smart.

So that leads me to my follow up question(s):

How many times a week should a kid throw?  Should they be throwing their hardest every day that they throw?  

Good questions. Are we talking about how to increase velocity as a pitcher or how to throw harder as a position player ? 

adbono posted:

Boy did this thread take left turn at Albuquerque or what? We are talking about coaching 4 year olds and Velo of 10 year olds ?! Geez!!

If you want to throw hard there are a number of things you should do that get mentioned a lot on here. Proper weight training is one of them. Proper being the key word in that sentence. Proper use of weighted balls, increasing core strength, increasing flexibility (yoga is great) are all recommended things. But what doesn’t get mentioned a lot are 2 things that are critical to the process of throwing harder. The first thing is that it all begins with a decision to try and throw harder. As simple as that sounds it is a barrier for a lot of kids. The second thing is that if you want to throw harder, along with doing all the other stuff noted above, you have to throw more often.  That doesn’t mean throw more pitches in games, it means incorporate more throwing into your workouts. Arm strength is built primarily by throwing the ball, IMO, and you have to throw to get a stronger arm. 

The question was what i considered an elite velo and natural ability, I am giving you instances where extra-ordinary velo was visible, it could be either at 4u, 10u, 14u or even at the MLB level.

I wouldn't advocate a 4u or 10u lifting weights to increase velocity, these kids already possessed unnatural ability to throw hard without it.

adbono posted:

3and2Fastball posted:

adbono posted:

The first thing is that it all begins with a decision to try and throw harder. As simple as that sounds it is a barrier for a lot of kids. The second thing is that if you want to throw harder, along with doing all the other stuff noted above, you have to throw more often.  That doesn’t mean throw more pitches in games, it means incorporate more throwing into your workouts. Arm strength is built primarily by throwing the ball, IMO, and you have to throw to get a stronger arm. 

This is very good advice.  I have a follow up question, if you don't mind.

We live in an era of Tommy John.  Kids are seeing their peers get Tommy John.  Teenagers with torn UCL's.  And I think that breeds some fear into kids to not want to overdo it.  Overcoming that fear is essential.  As is working smart.

So that leads me to my follow up question(s):

How many times a week should a kid throw?  Should they be throwing their hardest every day that they throw?  

Good questions. Are we talking about how to increase velocity as a pitcher or how to throw harder as a position player ? 

Thanks.  Both, if you have the time, please.  In terms of high school age players.

I'm interested in the position player portion, because my son is a position player.  However I would imagine that the pitchers & pitchers' parents would appreciate that perspective, too.

3and2Fastball posted:

adbono posted:

3and2Fastball posted:

adbono posted:

The first thing is that it all begins with a decision to try and throw harder. As simple as that sounds it is a barrier for a lot of kids. The second thing is that if you want to throw harder, along with doing all the other stuff noted above, you have to throw more often.  That doesn’t mean throw more pitches in games, it means incorporate more throwing into your workouts. Arm strength is built primarily by throwing the ball, IMO, and you have to throw to get a stronger arm. 

This is very good advice.  I have a follow up question, if you don't mind.

We live in an era of Tommy John.  Kids are seeing their peers get Tommy John.  Teenagers with torn UCL's.  And I think that breeds some fear into kids to not want to overdo it.  Overcoming that fear is essential.  As is working smart.

So that leads me to my follow up question(s):

How many times a week should a kid throw?  Should they be throwing their hardest every day that they throw?  

Good questions. Are we talking about how to increase velocity as a pitcher or how to throw harder as a position player ? 

Thanks.  Both, if you have the time, please.  In terms of high school age players.

I'm interested in the position player portion, because my son is a position player.  However I would imagine that the pitchers & pitchers' parents would appreciate that perspective, too.

I am traveling today watching my son play. I will get back to you on the position player part when I get a chance. It will be in terms of what worked for me in HS and college. 

adbono posted:

3and2Fastball posted:

adbono posted:

3and2Fastball posted:

adbono posted:

The first thing is that it all begins with a decision to try and throw harder. As simple as that sounds it is a barrier for a lot of kids. The second thing is that if you want to throw harder, along with doing all the other stuff noted above, you have to throw more often.  That doesn’t mean throw more pitches in games, it means incorporate more throwing into your workouts. Arm strength is built primarily by throwing the ball, IMO, and you have to throw to get a stronger arm. 

This is very good advice.  I have a follow up question, if you don't mind.

We live in an era of Tommy John.  Kids are seeing their peers get Tommy John.  Teenagers with torn UCL's.  And I think that breeds some fear into kids to not want to overdo it.  Overcoming that fear is essential.  As is working smart.

So that leads me to my follow up question(s):

How many times a week should a kid throw?  Should they be throwing their hardest every day that they throw?  

Good questions. Are we talking about how to increase velocity as a pitcher or how to throw harder as a position player ? 

Thanks.  Both, if you have the time, please.  In terms of high school age players.

I'm interested in the position player portion, because my son is a position player.  However I would imagine that the pitchers & pitchers' parents would appreciate that perspective, too.

I am traveling today watching my son play. I will get back to you on the position player part when I get a chance. It will be in terms of what worked for me in HS and college. 

Would be interested if you can include anything how to dealt with 2 ways at the HS school level and maanged workload.

Agree with ADBONO...this is starting to go in several different directions. There is some really good info that is getting lost amongst all the posts. I think it is important for parents to understand that, when it comes to pitching , there are multiple variables that will play a role in optimal performance. The only way to reach full potential is to work on all areas that need improvement which can include; timing (think technique), mental conditioning, strength/power development, weight gain, body awareness, pitch design/development, consistent command, arm care/durability. I am probably missing something but this list should be more then enough to keep players (and concerned parents) focused on multiple aspects of their development.

I have shared this in other posts regarding development but think it is really important for players and parents to understand that chronological and biological age can vary greatly amongst teens. Think of it in terms of puberty, which on average, starts between the ages of 9-15 for boys. Think about that for a minute...you could have a 9 year old pitcher and a 15-year old pitcher at the same stage of physical development! So that 10U pitcher may appear to be in the 1%, when in reality he is in the smaller percentage of 10-year old boys who are already going thru increased hormonal development and the physical changes that occur as a result of that development. Any one who has every watched the Little League World Series tournament, should be able to recall multiple players who look like they belong on a varsity HS baseball team in terms of their physical development.

NYCDAD, I have some questions:                 1. How old is your son?                                   2. What position does he play when he doesn’t pitch?                                                   3. Is he LHP or RHP?                                          4. What is your target for college level ball? 5. Right now is he a more accomplished pitcher or position player?                             6. Which does he enjoy more? 

ADBONO, 

i orginailly started post and would like your answers your questions for my son also. 

  1. How old is your son?     15                            2. What position does he play when he doesn’t pitch?   For his summer and high team when his isn’t pitching he plays SS or 2B and even OF sometimes.                                              3. Is he LHP or RHP?   RHP                                  4. What is your target for college level ball?

he wants to play college ball  not sure of the level yet. He is a very good player, just haven’t hit growth spurt yet so he is one of smaller players on his team  He is 5’7 130 lbs.  

5. Right now is he a more accomplished pitcher or position player?    He is usually the #2 pitcher on his teams behind one the big boys. He is a good hitter and very good with his glove.

      6. Which does he enjoy more?  He enjoys both but he really loves pitching

3and2Fastball posted:

adbono posted:

3and2Fastball posted:

adbono posted:

The first thing is that it all begins with a decision to try and throw harder. As simple as that sounds it is a barrier for a lot of kids. The second thing is that if you want to throw harder, along with doing all the other stuff noted above, you have to throw more often.  That doesn’t mean throw more pitches in games, it means incorporate more throwing into your workouts. Arm strength is built primarily by throwing the ball, IMO, and you have to throw to get a stronger arm. 

This is very good advice.  I have a follow up question, if you don't mind.

We live in an era of Tommy John.  Kids are seeing their peers get Tommy John.  Teenagers with torn UCL's.  And I think that breeds some fear into kids to not want to overdo it.  Overcoming that fear is essential.  As is working smart.

So that leads me to my follow up question(s):

How many times a week should a kid throw?  Should they be throwing their hardest every day that they throw?  

Good questions. Are we talking about how to increase velocity as a pitcher or how to throw harder as a position player ? 

Thanks.  Both, if you have the time, please.  In terms of high school age players.

I'm interested in the position player portion, because my son is a position player.  However I would imagine that the pitchers & pitchers' parents would appreciate that perspective, too.

First of all, this was a long time ago. What I’m about to describe applies more to state of mind and would need to be supplemented with all the other training methods mentioned earlier. This is what I did every practice (or game) during fall and spring seasons of freshman year in college - which was the time I threw the hardest. Stretch for 10 minutes, bands, run until I broke a sweat, and then begin to throw. Every throw had a purpose and a small target. Start with a shorter distance and increase the distance as arm loosed up. As soon as arm felt loose I would throw as hard as I could - at least 10 to 20 throws as hard as possible at a distance of at 75-90 Ft. Then practice or game. Run afterwards. Take hot shower and stretch arm while showering. Apply rubbing alcohol to arm and shoulder as soon as I got out of shower. Put on long sleeve shirt to sleep in to keep arm warm. This was my in season routine.Through 20 games in the fall and 60 in the spring I never had any arm trouble and my arm got stronger throughout the season. I threw every day there was a team activity and I threw as hard as I could - but not a ton of throws each day. I never had a top velo number recorded but I was over 95 from the OF at a Montreal Expo camp. But let me be clear, I was not a great player. I just had one exceptional tool - and it wasn’t all God given. I built up arm strength by throwing a lot and taking care of my arm. 

My son believes he should do stuff that feels right. So, he barbell benches, squats, chins, does face pulls, dead lifts, hip thrusts, some curls and other stuff while also long tossing around four days a week.  He is 6’0” 170lbs of muscle. He gained around 3-4 mph on his fastball this summer.  

I am convinced that the weight lifting and long tossing served to give the added strength and the functional training.  

Keep in mind also that all mechanics are not the same.  Verlander’s workout will have less results for average high school guys and even for many MLB guys.  Power generation and arm actions vary even at that level.