Stride Length

Your stride should be as long as possible while still being able to maintain good posture and balance and not inhibiting good hip rotation.

That said, I wouldn't make your stride length be a goal. Instead, you should focus on getting the hips going to build up momentum, having good mechanics, and letting the stride be the result.

Now, I suspect you're looking for a specific number - a percentage of your height. Many coaches used to suggest in the neighborhood of 70-80% of one's height. Tom House suggests what I said above but will also says you "ought" to be able to achieve at least 90% of one's height with proper momentum, mechanics, and timing. I believe Dick Mills is these days suggesting at least 100% of one's height.

The Angels pitching coach last year was working with Jered Weaver and his stride, and he said your stride should be at least 4.5 lengths of your feet from the rubber

quote:

Your stride should be as long as possible while still being able to maintain good posture and balance and not inhibiting good hip rotation.

^
Good

There's 2 things I see. You can get out to 100% of your height, but still be moving slow, that is.. I see the pitcher lead with their leg.. yeah they got out to 100%, but is that really the key?

No

You want to move as explosively as possible leading with your front hip, ala Tim (what is it.. Lincecum?) and Sandy Koufax, and Nolan Ryan, all have a stride length of well over 100% of their height.

joe91-

A pitchers stride distance is usually close to their height when throwing from an elevated mound. Dependent factors include the type of style of pitching ie, knuckle ball (stand up) type to a leaping (airborne) type. Something to keep in mind is, the farther you stride out, and the lower you get to the ground, the harder it is to rotate around the front hip.

quote:

Originally posted by cap_n:
Something to keep in mind is, the farther you stride out, and the lower you get to the ground, the harder it is to rotate around the front hip.

Excellent point.

I think 70-90 percent works for most people.

Very few people can stride 100+ percent and still get good hip rotation.

That depends on the amount of momentum generated in the stride.

quote:

Originally posted by thepainguy:

quote:

Originally posted by cap_n:
Something to keep in mind is, the farther you stride out, and the lower you get to the ground, the harder it is to rotate around the front hip.

Excellent point.

I think 70-90 percent works for most people.

Very few people can stride 100+ percent and still get good hip rotation.

And this can flatten out ball flight easily too. Landing leg can flex too much dropping the arm, taking energy downward and giving a dull or too soft of a launch. The front leg must become a fulcrum to shoot violent energy into the torso then the arm. The chain must whip and that starts in the landing leg with a violent recoil or stopping effect.

quote:

Originally posted by jacetheace:
The front leg must become a fulcrum to shoot violent energy into the torso then the arm. The chain must whip and that starts in the landing leg with a violent recoil or stopping effect.

I disagree with this.

While some pros do lock their GS knees, many hard throwers do not (e.g. Tom Seaver). Instead, they always keep the GS knee flexed.

That means that this is not essential to throwing hard.

Also, locking the GS knee increases the strain and shock experienced by the knee and the hip socket.

I teach my guys to throw against a firm front side, but to always keep some flex in the GS knee.

I must be missing something because I don't see where locking the front knee was recommended.

quote:

Originally posted by dm59:
I must be missing something because I don't see where locking the front knee was recommended.

Right here...

The chain must whip and that starts in the landing leg with a violent recoil or stopping effect.

Particularly, the use of the phrases "violent recoil" and "stopping".

I think he's describing the right things but that phrase (violent recoil) might not be the best way. The "stopping effect" isn't a problem. It's what happens and is desirable with respect to the front hip. I just read his post and took it to mean the right things but could have been worded otherwise. The point's there and I didn't read it as recommending locking of the front knee.

quote:

Originally posted by thepainguy:

quote:

Originally posted by jacetheace:
The front leg must become a fulcrum to shoot violent energy into the torso then the arm. The chain must whip and that starts in the landing leg with a violent recoil or stopping effect.

I disagree with this.

While some pros do lock their GS knees, many hard throwers do not (e.g. Tom Seaver). Instead, they always keep the GS knee flexed.

Oh don't get me wrong you can have a flexed knee but still have it firm giving the same energy translation into the torso. A taller, less flexed knee gives more down plane. Flexed gets rise (like Seaver lived on) to compliment yak action. He pitched north-south as well as east-west.
Just gotta be carefull that the leg is firm to start the kinetic chain of whips no matter what degree of flexion.
That means that this is not essential to throwing hard. I didn't mean LOCKING or hyler extending...I'm taking energy absorbing to kick into the next rest of the chain.
I believe this is one of the big reasons why Prior went south. He wast hinking so much about getting out in front (from House) that it softened his knee, dropping his body and arm arm that started seving up flat, straight, hittable meat.

Also, locking the GS knee increases the strain and shock experienced by the knee and the hip socket.

I teach my guys to throw against a firm front side, but to always keep some flex in the GS knee.

quote:

Originally posted by jacetheace:

quote:

Originally posted by thepainguy:

quote:

Originally posted by jacetheace:
The front leg must become a fulcrum to shoot violent energy into the torso then the arm. The chain must whip and that starts in the landing leg with a violent recoil or stopping effect.

I disagree with this.

While some pros do lock their GS knees, many hard throwers do not (e.g. Tom Seaver). Instead, they always keep the GS knee flexed.

Jace Response:

Oh don't get me wrong you can have a flexed knee but still have it firm giving the same energy translation into the torso. A taller, less flexed knee gives more down plane. Flexed gets rise (like Seaver lived on) to compliment yak action. He pitched north-south as well as east-west.
Just gotta be carefull that the leg is firm to start the kinetic chain of whips no matter what degree of flexion.
That means that this is not essential to throwing hard. I didn't mean LOCKING or hyler extending...I'm taking energy absorbing to kick into the next rest of the chain.
I believe this is one of the big reasons why Prior went south. He wast hinking so much about getting out in front (from House) that it softened his knee, dropping his body and arm arm that started seving up flat, straight, hittable meat.

Also, locking the GS knee increases the strain and shock experienced by the knee and the hip socket.

I teach my guys to throw against a firm front side, but to always keep some flex in the GS knee.

quote:

Originally posted by jacetheace:
I believe this is one of the big reasons why Prior went south. He wast hinking so much about getting out in front (from House) that it softened his knee, dropping his body and arm arm that started seving up flat, straight, hittable meat.

Take a look at this clip of Mark Prior and tell me if you think he has a softened front knee. I don't see it. What I see is his front leg firms up, the front hip stops, the back hip rotates around the front hip, and then the front leg straightens to soften the follow-through.

Good point on pic however that's ONE pitch. Was that recent or when he was dealing? I think he gets underneath when he is flat. I think his head also goes too far toward home without the same "recoil"
Bottom line...he gets too caught up into how far his relaese is.
Hey his motion was flawless at one time. I just think that he went too far with the towel drill (trying to get too far in front) therefore taking energy DOWN and flatening his ball flight.
His ball became flat...period. I think it has a lot to do with the whole over extending that House doen't get yet (or maybe he has as much as he changes)
Of course there may have been other factors. One classic explanation from House was "he eats too many seeds"....hahaha

quote:

Originally posted by dm59:
I think he's describing the right things but that phrase (violent recoil) might not be the best way. The "stopping effect" isn't a problem. It's what happens and is desirable with respect to the front hip. I just read his post and took it to mean the right things but could have been worded otherwise. The point's there and I didn't read it as recommending locking of the front knee.

Pitching is a violent recoil of a kinetic chain. It's like cracking a whip. If your hand does not stop or recoil hard...the energy into the next piece (the whip) is dull. Pitching is one of the most violent acts in sport. We just started to see this with better video equiptment and motion analysis in past several years.
Pitchers need to train this violent chain. It's not slow and big...it's quick and violent. If your workouts stress more kinetic recoil you will see HUGE results. I've seen it work WONDERS with many.

quote:

Originally posted by Roger Tomas:
Take a look at this clip of Mark Prior and tell me if you think he has a softened front knee. I don't see it. What I see is his front leg firms up, the front hip stops, the back hip rotates around the front hip, and then the front leg straightens to soften the follow-through.

I would never discuss Mark Prior, a guy who supposedly had perfect mechanics but who's now pretty much out of baseball, except in the context of what not to do.

quote:

Originally posted by jacetheace:
Hey his motion was flawless at one time. I just think that he went too far with the towel drill (trying to get too far in front) therefore taking energy DOWN and flatening his ball flight.
His ball became flat...period. I think it has a lot to do with the whole over extending that House doen't get yet (or maybe he has as much as he changes)
Of course there may have been other factors. One classic explanation from House was "he eats too many seeds"....hahaha

Mark Prior's mechanics were never flawless (despite what Tom House said to the contrary).

His arm action (e.g. Inverted W) has been consistent since college, and his arm action is the root cause of his problems.

Really?
Please explain. What is the flaw in his arm action?
Tell me more about the inverted W
Thanks

The truth about the inverted "W" is that it is really just an "M"....

quote:

Originally posted by jacetheace:
Really? Please explain. What is the flaw in his arm action? Tell me more about the inverted W

Here is a photo of what I am talking about...



None of the great pitchers do this. Not Clemens, Ryan, Gibson, Maddux, Glavine, etc.

The only HOFer who did this is Don Drysdale, and he retired due to shoulder problems.

One current guy who does do this is Anthony Reyes of the Cardinals, and I expect that he will have the same problems shortly.

OK good. Now show mw what a healthy arm action should look like. Compare Clemens, Johnson, Smoltz etc and show how it is different. This is a very interesting topic howver we need to be clear. Why is this wrong? What is better....be specific....thanks

See this pic of Smoltz
http://tbn0.google.com/images?q=tbn:sQFDguafX8dI2M:http...5/07/12/4KYZmFYG.jpg

quote:

Originally posted by jacetheace:
See this pic of Smoltz

Smoltz makes a moderate Inverted W. I believe that is related to his elbow and shoulder problems. Remember that Smoltz had to be taken out of the starting rotation due to these problems.

Maddux, Clemens, and Ryan do not do this.

quote:

Originally posted by jacetheace:
OK good. Now show mw what a healthy arm action should look like. Compare Clemens, Johnson, Smoltz etc and show how it is different. This is a very interesting topic howver we need to be clear. Why is this wrong? What is better....be specific....thanks

Here is a photo of Maddux. This is as high as his PAS elbow ever gets. Notice that it's well below the level of his shoulders.



Here's a clip of Nolan Ryan. Notice how low his Pitching Arm Side elbow stays. It's higher than Maddux's but lower than Smoltz's.



Here's a clip of Roger Clemens. Notice how low his PAS elbow stays. Again, it's higher than Maddux's but lower than Smoltz's.



Also, Clemens' PAS elbow stays lower now that he's older.

- Recent Roger Clemens Clip

pain
In one of the Prior videos I know you have, Quicktime shows it at 20 fps. In it, Prior's elbow is at this height for 3 frames before it starts to drop. I'm no math major but that equates to 0.15 sec, in my estimation. By the time he lands, bearing weight on the front foot, the elbow has dropped to shoulder height, pretty much where Ryan and Clemens have it as they land. The biggest difference is where the forearm is pointing at this point. In Prior, it's just above horizontal, while Ryan and Clemens have it closer to vertical. Therein lies what I believe may be problematic, not the height of the elbow during that fleeting moment.

Lots of speculation about the cause of Prior's problems. And everyone seems content to ignore other factors:

NCAA PAP

2005 PAP By Starting Pitcher

Also, I believe USC has a bit of a reputation for overworking pitchers. (Don't know first hand - just something I've heard.) Prior went to USC. Painguy mentioned Anthony Reyes above - guess where he went to college? I mean, guess what college Reyes was attending when he had arm problems?

I don't know the cause of Prior's problems. But I'm not willing to accept speculation.

quote:

Originally posted by Roger Tomas:
Lots of speculation about the cause of Prior's problems. And everyone seems content to ignore other factors:

NCAA PAP

2005 PAP By Starting Pitcher

Also, I believe USC has a bit of a reputation for overworking pitchers. (Don't know first hand - just something I've heard.) Prior went to USC. Painguy mentioned Anthony Reyes above - guess where he went to college? I mean, guess what college Reyes was attending when he had arm problems?

I don't know the cause of Prior's problems. But I'm not willing to accept speculation.

PAP has been pretty thoroughly discredited by guys like Bill James.

Second, I don't think it's a coincidence that both Prior and Reyes went to USC and have similar mechanics. You see the same thing in the mechanics of Ian Kennedy.

I think these guys are being taught to do something that is both dangerous and unnecessary to throwing well or hard.

quote:

Originally posted by dm59:
The biggest difference is where the forearm is pointing at this point. In Prior, it's just above horizontal, while Ryan and Clemens have it closer to vertical. Therein lies what I believe may be problematic, not the height of the elbow during that fleeting moment.

I agree that the horizontal position of the forearm at this moment may be the difference.

What you get as a result is 45 to 90 degrees more external rotation at the moment the shoulders start to turn (and thus more stress on both the elbow and the shoulder). You see something similar in the mechanics of Chris Carpenter and BJ Ryan.

quote:

Originally posted by thepainguy:
PAP has been pretty thoroughly discredited by guys like Bill James.

Taken at face value, PAP has its shortcomings. But if you're correct about the inverted "W", then would you not agree that throwing more pitches with those mechanics be more likely to lead to injury than throwing fewer pitches with those same mechanics? And would you not agree that there is a cumulative wear and tear that takes place which is also exacerbated by overuse?

I think too often people look for isolated causes of injuries when they should instead be looking at multiple compounding causes plus their cumulative effects over time.

quote:

Second, I don't think it's a coincidence that both Prior and Reyes went to USC and have similar mechanics. You see the same thing in the mechanics of Ian Kennedy.

I couldn't tell you if Prior and Reyes had the same coaches at USC but it would be interesting to know. It would also be interesting to know if any other USC pitchers share the same mechanics.

quote:

I think these guys are being taught to do something that is both dangerous and unnecessary to throwing well or hard.

We need more data to determine if this is the case.

quote:

Originally posted by Roger Tomas:
Taken at face value, PAP has its shortcomings. But if you're correct about the inverted "W", then would you not agree that throwing more pitches with those mechanics be more likely to lead to injury than throwing fewer pitches with those same mechanics? And would you not agree that there is a cumulative wear and tear that takes place which is also exacerbated by overuse?

Yes and yes.

That's why guys who make the Inverted W are most often successful in relief roles. Their arms can't handle the stress of starting.

I think it's good that the Tigers kept Zumaya in the bullpen. I don't think his arm could take starting.

However, just using a guy from the bullpen is no panacea, as Kerry Wood demonstrates.

quote:

Originally posted by Roger Tomas:
I think too often people look for isolated causes of injuries when they should instead be looking at multiple compounding causes plus their cumulative effects over time.

I agree.

My problem is with people who completely discount mechanics.

quote:

I agree that the horizontal position of the forearm at this moment may be the difference.

What you get as a result is 45 to 90 degrees more external rotation at the moment the shoulders start to turn (and thus more stress on both the elbow and the shoulder). You see something similar in the mechanics of Chris Carpenter and BJ Ryan.

So, pain, are you agreeing with my contention that the height of the elbow isn't the root cause here because it isn't there for an appreciable amount of time? It may be a "sign" that the real cause of any alleged problems is about to happen.

quote:

Originally posted by dm59:

quote:

I agree that the horizontal position of the forearm at this moment may be the difference.

What you get as a result is 45 to 90 degrees more external rotation at the moment the shoulders start to turn (and thus more stress on both the elbow and the shoulder). You see something similar in the mechanics of Chris Carpenter and BJ Ryan.

So, pain, are you agreeing with my contention that the height of the elbow isn't the root cause here because it isn't there for an appreciable amount of time? It may be a "sign" that the real cause of any alleged problems is about to happen.

In some/most cases, yes.

Anthony Reyes' PAS elbow is still high at the moment his shoulders start to turn, but he's the exception.

In most cases, I think the Inverted W puts you on a problematic path but isn't the actual cause of the problem. IOW, it dramatically increases the likelihood that you will do something problematic but doesn't actually cause the damage in and of itself (since the shoulders haven't yet started to turn and as a result the forces aren't yet that large).

Wow...You guys are getting deep.
Nolan's shoulder was torn to shreads but he did not know what pain was.
Maddux has low elbows but is a thumber...there is less arm-laod or torque.
The inverted W seems to be an arm that simply gets more power, torque or force.
Yes...more torgue means more stress. Guys who throw hard have more injury risk.
What about Moyer.
My point is that arm action is subjectively anecdotal. It's valid to say that a certain arm action has more injury risk just as it is with pitch counts..... however......
PAP is interesting

Here is my take on "abuse" if anyone cares

Performance/Work-Load and Longevity Assessment

4 factors that show work-load ability, stamina and injury risk. Use this equation: FS + ME + GP + MM = PWL

FS = Functional Strength (advanced movement strength...balance, stability, range etc.. and the look at effortlessness)
ME= Mechanical Efficiency (release leverage, head square/up, glove up, head over front foot, late external rotation.)
GP= Genetic Predisposition and Age (laxity/stability in shoulder, bone structure, maturity, arm speed)
MM=Metabolic Management (nutrition, ATP recovery, energy level, blood/cellular chemistry, antioxidants, etc.)
_____________________

PWL= Performance Work Load, Longevity, Injury Risk (pitch counts, stamina, energy maintenance, recovery etc.)

* Put an approximate number from 1-10 on all 4 areas and add them up.
Here is a sample of a typical high school or college pitcher’s evaluation:

FS= 4
ME=5
GP=7
MM=2
_______
PWL=18 * Note the weak link is usually metabolic (nutrition). Fast food, soda, beer etc. bring it all way down!

Scale
0-9 Very low (will usually decrease in performance quickly, need lots of time between games, very high injury risk!)
10-19 Low (will usually decrease in performance after 40-50 pitches, need long recovery, high injury risk)
20-29 Medium (performance usually drops at around 75 pitches, recovery is average to ok, injury risk is average)
30-40 High (performance usually stays strong till around 100 pitches or more, recovers fast, very low injury risk)

Randy Johnson, Roger Clemens

FS= 9
ME=9
GP=8 (Johnson, Clemens are lower due to age)
MM=7 * note weakest link is still nutrition
______
PWL=33

*You can have all the talent in the world, the best coaching and training program there is, but if your engine isn’t fueled right, YOU WILL NOT GET PEAK PERFORMANCE! Pitchers must take care of their bodies at the cellular level!
Note: Mental/Emotional factors DO play a role in all this but we’ll keep that separate for now. Remember, you are only as strong as your weakest link!!


Arm action and torque play a roll in all this also. The more stress we apply (either pitch-count wise or arm-action wise) the more we need to pay attention to other details like recovery and shoulder capsule stability (arm care etc.)

The inverted W is not the problem. To get into the power T position you have to form a W sometime in the windup. How else does the ball go from the waist to above the shoulder. The true problem with Prior and others is the fact the elbows get behind the plane of the back. I was taught when your in the power T position the elbows cannot be behind the plane of the back or else you are restricting the movement of the shoulder joint

bb27

quote:

I was taught when your in the power T position the elbows cannot be behind the plane of the back or else you are restricting the movement of the shoulder joint

I would re-address what you were taught, there is literally a mountain of evidence that this is false.

quote:

Originally posted by deemax:
bb27

quote:

I was taught when your in the power T position the elbows cannot be behind the plane of the back or else you are restricting the movement of the shoulder joint

I would re-address what you were taught, there is literally a mountain of evidence that this is false.

deemax-

What an understatement.

This was another one of those "secrets to more velocity" gimmicks.

quote:

Originally posted by BB27:
The true problem with Prior and others is the fact the elbows get behind the plane of the back. I was taught when your in the power T position the elbows cannot be behind the plane of the back or else you are restricting the movement of the shoulder joint

This is something that Mike Marshall says that doesn't seem to be the case.

If you look at Maddux, Ryan, Clemens, Gibson, etc. their elbows DO in fact go behind their backs.

I think the critical difference is that their elbows are below the level of the shoulders (as in the photos of Johnson and Martinez) while this is happening. I call this the Horizontal W.



In the case of Mark Prior, at this moment his elbows are both above and behind the level of his shoulders (aka the "Inverted W" or simply the "M").

quote:

Originally posted by BB27:
The inverted W is not the problem. To get into the power T position you have to form a W sometime in the windup.

Not necessarily.

Long-armers like Roy Oswalt don't form a W.