Stride Length

Chris,

There is so much evidence out there but you insist on ignoring it.

If your goal is to produce 80 mph throwers fine. Just don't assume others are interested.

And stop using arm injury as your trump card.

It is totally a risk reward decision.

If you want to avoid arm injury then please, do not attempt to do what successful pitchers do. Go ahead and play through high school and quit.

If you want to have a chance to be as good as you can be, you have to stress the arm. Pure and simple.

Wear the big boy pants.

Some make it. Some don't.

What you teach assures the "some don't".

quote:

Originally posted by Chameleon:
There is so much evidence out there but you insist on ignoring it...If your goal is to produce 80 mph throwers fine. Just don't assume others are interested...And stop using arm injury as your trump card...It is totally a risk reward decision...If you want to avoid arm injury then please, do not attempt to do what successful pitchers do. Go ahead and play through high school and quit. If you want to have a chance to be as good as you can be, you have to stress the arm. Pure and simple.

Sorry, but you're the one who's ignoring the evidence.

Making the inverted W is not necessary to throwing either hard or well.

By way of evidence, I give you...

- Roger Clemens
- Bob Gibson
- Tom Glavine
- Randy Johnson
- Greg Maddux
- Nolan Ryan

...all of whom make the Horizontal W (never take their elbows above the level of their shoulders once they break their hands).

Are you saying that none of those guys can top 80 MPH?

Please...

First of all my comments are about YOU and YOUR NONSENSE in general.

However, if you want to limit the discussion to the inverted W, and your claim that it is injurious, then the only sane conclusion about why Smoltz and the other guys do it is so they can injure their arm.

Because, according to you, they (not the others) could throw just as hard and just as well without it.

Prove that please.

quote:

Originally posted by Chameleon:
However, if you want to limit the discussion to the inverted W, and your claim that it is injurious, then the only sane conclusion about why Smoltz and the other guys do it is so they can injure their arm.

This doesn't follow.

They could do it for a variety of reasons, including...

- Because they THINK it helps them throw harder.
- Because they were just taught to do it.
- Because they don't realize they do it.

quote:

Originally posted by Chameleon:
Because, according to you, they (not the others) could throw just as hard and just as well without it.

Prove that please.

By way of proof I give you...

- Roger Clemens
- Bob Gibson
- Tom Glavine
- Randy Johnson
- Greg Maddux
- Nolan Ryan

The pitchers above represent a wide cross section of body types and sizes (and who have been largely injury-free).

While Smoltz, Pedro, Feller, and Drysdale all threw hard and made the Inverted W, none of the above does/did.

Therefore, the Inverted W is not necessary to throwing hard or well.

quote:

Originally posted by Chameleon:
First of all my comments are about YOU and YOUR NONSENSE in general.

What other nonsense are you referring to?

quote:

Originally posted by thepainguy:

quote:

Originally posted by Chameleon:
First of all my comments are about YOU and YOUR NONSENSE in general.

What other nonsense are you referring to?

..........let's keep the reply's focused on the original question.

quote:

Originally posted by thepainguy:

By way of proof I give you...

- Roger Clemens
- Bob Gibson
- Tom Glavine
- Randy Johnson
- Greg Maddux
- Nolan Ryan

Did you fail Geometry?

What your guys can do has nothing to do with what Smoltz can do...and what Pedro...Reyes...Bonderman...Beckett...the rest...can do.

Thank God they don't do this...



I don't expect this guy to hurt his arm.

Checkmate

Richard-

I wish you would refrain from going any farther with this. You've made this a personal attack....let it go, move on to another topic.

quote:

Originally posted by Chameleon:
What your guys can do has nothing to do with what Smoltz can do...and what Pedro...Reyes...Bonderman...Beckett...the rest...can do.

Thank God they don't do this...



I don't expect this guy to hurt his arm.

Leave it to you to attack the person rather than the idea.

For the record, I am not currently advocating the Marshall arm action, which is what I am attempting to demonstrate in that clip.

I'm not convinced that you have to go that far.

Instead, I am currently advocating the mechanics of guys like...

- Gibson
- Glavine
- Maddux
- Ryan
- Seaver

Sure, I'll let it go.

You have a different definition of "personal attack".

When a guy demonstrates his theory, and I disagree with his demonstration, I haven't attacked him personally. Then again....when it's THIS demonstration...you could be right.

His point that because certain pitchers throw without the inverted W, therefore ALL can is simply ridiculous.

They throw that way because THEY get improved performance by doing so. Otherwise they wouldn't do it.

Someone needs to real this guy in.

I agree with bbscout.

quote:

Originally posted by Chameleon:
His point that because certain pitchers throw without the inverted W, therefore ALL can is simply ridiculous.

Please explain...

1. Why the Inverted W is so important if not every hard thrower does it.

2. Why Nolan Ryan (and Roger Clemens and Randy Johnson and Tom Seaver and Sandy Koufax) was able to throw as hard as he did without making the Inverted W given that it's supposedly so critical.

2. Exactly what, anatomically speaking, the Inverted W does that is so important.

I'm trying to "let it go".

Your questions indicate you didn't read my posts.

No reason to continue.

quote:

1. Why the Inverted W is so important if not every hard thrower does it.

Why is the univerted "M" unimportant if some hard throwers do use it?

quote:

Originally posted by deemax:

quote:

1. Why the Inverted W is so important if not every hard thrower does it.

Why is the univerted "M" unimportant if some hard throwers do use it?

If the M was absolutely necessary, then every hard thrower would do it. Since every hard thrower doesn't do it, then it may not be necessary (notice that I said "may" and not "is" since that is all that I can say).

I'm not arguing the scap loading is unimportant. It very well may be. However, there seems to be a safe way to do it (Horizontal W) and an unsafe way to do it (Inverted W or M).

quote:

Originally posted by Chameleon:
I'm trying to "let it go".

Your questions indicate you didn't read my posts.

No reason to continue.

Yes I did.

quote:

Originally posted by Chameleon:
What your guys can do has nothing to do with what Smoltz can do...and what Pedro...Reyes...Bonderman...Beckett...the rest...can do.

The problem is that your logic doesn't follow.

If the Inverted W was necessary to throwing hard, then every pitcher would do it. However, every ML pitcher does not do it. In fact, while the pitchers that you cited above do make the Inverted W, there are far more ML pitchers who do not make the Inverted W. Probably 80% of ML pitchers do not make the Inverted W, and that includes many hard throwers like Ryan, Seaver, Clemens, and Koufax.

Therefore, the Inverted W is not necessary to throwing well or hard.

Stride length, inverted W............stride length, inverted W...........stride length, inverted W.

I don't see the connection. Instead, the thread was highjacked.

This would have made an excellent NEW topic where you guys could have hashed it out.

Teacher......you made it personal when you said "First of all my comments are about YOU and YOUR NONSENSE in general."

So...I can keep posting the clip?

ruthless...

quote:

So...I can keep posting the clip?

.................that is ruthless

quote:

Originally posted by Chameleon:
So...I can keep posting the clip?

If you're unable to respond intelligently to someone's questions, then mocking them is a pretty standard tactic.

Oh, and you don't "real" someone in. You "reel" them in.