3 for 10 won't get it in basketball or football
Let's raise the standard to 3 for 8. If the average hitter can do 3 for 8, I would say that hitters are getting better. As it stands now, all that is asked is that a player get 1 hit in 3 at bats to reach the Hall of Fame. One for three is not asking much of a professional.
Golf is different and forgiving. In golf, you have strokes determined by club distance and then you get two putts. Good golfers usually only need the one putt.
I never said that pitchers were great now. Most neither stay ahead in the count nor keep the ball in the park. But compared to the hitters they are facing, they look like stars.
I blame the poor pitching on the scouts and GM's. They are more infatuated with height and pitch speed than control and movement. (same with hitters)
I have looked at stats over the years and they are surprising. Would you be surprised that more hits are recorded by balls hit in the air as compared to balls hit on the ground? It is true and has held true since the beginning of the game.
The pitchers guile and the placement of the fielders is the reason that I only ask for .500 hitters. I have often taught that a hitter should make contact in every at bat to make something happen. Sometimes the umps will not agree with the batters eye on balls and strikes and other times the pitcher will throw something that the batter cannot handle. That is the game within the game.
Remember the advice to be a good hitter is to hit it where they ain't.
If the standard were 3 for 8 - .375
There are several in my lifetime who have had years hitting over .375 in the major leagues.
Here’s an idea that will surely give us better hitters. Let’s only allow 5 defensive players out there on the field. I guarantee the batting averages will sky rocket and we will then have some true great hitters.
Then again if we want lower batting averages let’s put 9 extra fielders out there and see how many hits drop in.
There are several in my lifetime who have had years hitting over .375 in the major leagues.
Here’s an idea that will surely give us better hitters. Let’s only allow 5 defensive players out there on the field. I guarantee the batting averages will sky rocket and we will then have some true great hitters.
Then again if we want lower batting averages let’s put 9 extra fielders out there and see how many hits drop in.
quote:Bluedog, can I quote you on that?
Vance, absolutely........
From Blue Dog's profile---"I teach htting"
Blue Dog--are you in the group of instructors/teachers you speak of ?
You say there are no good instructors and yet you are one, a supposed treacher that is
Blue Dog--are you in the group of instructors/teachers you speak of ?
You say there are no good instructors and yet you are one, a supposed treacher that is
Baseball has been trying to help hitters since at least 1919. The biggest aid has been the lively baseball and constant replacement of baseballs throughout the game. Since that time home runs have skyrocketed from the previous all time home run record of 27 in a season by Ned Williamson in 1884 for the Chicago White Stockings.
Various pitches were outlawed and the mound was lowered. The strike zone was made smaller. The average professional baseball player still hits about .250.
Baseballs were livened again and the only improvement was in home runs hit.
I'll lower my standards for a good hitter even lower, how about one hit each game? Not as many hits as there are games, but one hit each game played.
If a player can match this challenge, they would be at least about a .270 hitter, but guaranteed a place in the Baseball Hall of Fame.
Various pitches were outlawed and the mound was lowered. The strike zone was made smaller. The average professional baseball player still hits about .250.
Baseballs were livened again and the only improvement was in home runs hit.
I'll lower my standards for a good hitter even lower, how about one hit each game? Not as many hits as there are games, but one hit each game played.
If a player can match this challenge, they would be at least about a .270 hitter, but guaranteed a place in the Baseball Hall of Fame.
30% is considered good because we know from empirical experience that even the best can do little better at the peaks of their respective careers.
In basketball, a free throw shooter should hit at least 70% of his free throws, and 80% would be better. 30% would be woeful even for Shaq. Would you argue that a hitter should bat .700 or .800, by comparing to the free throw standard?
Ever hear the term, "apples and oranges"?
You cited a few things done to help offense, but you omitted some key developments that have worked against the hitters. How many guys threw over 90 back in 1919? Now every MLB team has several. There was a time when the curve ball was new, and many wanted to outlaw it. Now you see sliders and cutters over 90.
You talk about lowering the mounds, but originally the mound was there only to keep the pitcher's area from becoming a mud hole. It wasn't until later that folks started raising it specifically to give pitchers an advantage. That got out of hand and lowering it was a reaction.
Ever been to a museum and seen the old timey baseball gloves? Think Ozzie Smith could've done what he did with one of them? Or Andruw Jones? Or do you argue that since Vizquel can catch 'em bare handed, that should be the standard by which we measure every one on every play?
I have to believe you were pulling our legs on this one, because otherwise you need some time off.
In basketball, a free throw shooter should hit at least 70% of his free throws, and 80% would be better. 30% would be woeful even for Shaq. Would you argue that a hitter should bat .700 or .800, by comparing to the free throw standard?
Ever hear the term, "apples and oranges"?
You cited a few things done to help offense, but you omitted some key developments that have worked against the hitters. How many guys threw over 90 back in 1919? Now every MLB team has several. There was a time when the curve ball was new, and many wanted to outlaw it. Now you see sliders and cutters over 90.
You talk about lowering the mounds, but originally the mound was there only to keep the pitcher's area from becoming a mud hole. It wasn't until later that folks started raising it specifically to give pitchers an advantage. That got out of hand and lowering it was a reaction.
Ever been to a museum and seen the old timey baseball gloves? Think Ozzie Smith could've done what he did with one of them? Or Andruw Jones? Or do you argue that since Vizquel can catch 'em bare handed, that should be the standard by which we measure every one on every play?
I have to believe you were pulling our legs on this one, because otherwise you need some time off.
It is unreasonable to surmise that pitchers in the past did not throw in the 90's. The present technology used to measure pitch speed did not exist in their day. It would be as unreasonable as giving an eye witness account of an event at which you were not present in the years before television.
The old four finger gloves were fantastic. I used one for five years. Infield or outfield, those gloves were very dependable. I think Ozzie would have had no trouble with an old four finger glove.
Since the mounds were lowered and the strike zone made smaller to aid the hitter, what improvement have hitters shown?
The basic play of the game has not changed. Pitchers have to throw the ball where hitters can hit it and hitters have to hit it where it can't be fielded.
The only things that have gotten better in the history of baseball are the stories apologists concoct to justify poor hitting.
The old four finger gloves were fantastic. I used one for five years. Infield or outfield, those gloves were very dependable. I think Ozzie would have had no trouble with an old four finger glove.
Since the mounds were lowered and the strike zone made smaller to aid the hitter, what improvement have hitters shown?
The basic play of the game has not changed. Pitchers have to throw the ball where hitters can hit it and hitters have to hit it where it can't be fielded.
The only things that have gotten better in the history of baseball are the stories apologists concoct to justify poor hitting.
BOBO
Are you a pitcher who did not make it???
Are you a pitcher who did not make it???
quote:The only things that have gotten better in the history of baseball are the stories apologists concoct to justify poor hitting
I agree completely......What a true statement....
quote:Blue Dog--are you in the group of instructors/teachers you speak of ?
TRhit, I don't recall excluding myself from my statement.....I do want to figure out how to get good at teaching hitting.......Someday, I hope to be pretty good.....But, I know I'm not there, as of now.....
I tell my kid that there are no balls and strikes as a hitter, just "pitches you can drive and all others to let go by." The umpires call balls and strikes, not my son.
I tell him to ignore counts and look for a pitch to drive. We then in practice only swing at pitches he can drive. When he was little I used to set a tee outside of the strike zone and then tell him he should not have swung at it if he cannot drive it.
When doing live bp, the biggest part of the drill was to let pitches go by he couldn't handle. I think coaches who tell kids to swing at everything in bp do not understand hitting. Watch a kid in a cage before a game. By afraid of the one that lets pitches go by then kills the ones that he can drive.
In .400 seconds you don't have time to go over a count in your head, just hit. As one major league instructor says, if two strike routines work, use them no matter the count.
Over the course of a season, if a hitter only offers at pitches he can handle he'll look back at pretty good numbers.
Finally, I don't believe there are too many good hitters that have not learned from someone. It may be by watching and emulating, but there are verrrry few natural hitters. Conversely, with all the lessons out there, hitting seems to be suffering. Makes me think we can do better teaching it.
I tell him to ignore counts and look for a pitch to drive. We then in practice only swing at pitches he can drive. When he was little I used to set a tee outside of the strike zone and then tell him he should not have swung at it if he cannot drive it.
When doing live bp, the biggest part of the drill was to let pitches go by he couldn't handle. I think coaches who tell kids to swing at everything in bp do not understand hitting. Watch a kid in a cage before a game. By afraid of the one that lets pitches go by then kills the ones that he can drive.
In .400 seconds you don't have time to go over a count in your head, just hit. As one major league instructor says, if two strike routines work, use them no matter the count.
Over the course of a season, if a hitter only offers at pitches he can handle he'll look back at pretty good numbers.
Finally, I don't believe there are too many good hitters that have not learned from someone. It may be by watching and emulating, but there are verrrry few natural hitters. Conversely, with all the lessons out there, hitting seems to be suffering. Makes me think we can do better teaching it.
Williebobo wrote:
There are no good hitters. Since there are no good hitters, there are no good hitting instructors or theories of hitting.
WOW that is a pretty bold and blanket statement!
Willie - would like to know if you are you basing your "no good hitters" statement on production, swing mechanics or both?
Bluedog wrote:
There are no good hitting instructors... Hitting instruction in baseball is in the dark ages.....
Bluedog - knowing you have studied and dissected many MLB hitters swings over the years...my question to you is who then has worked with these guys in developing their high-level swings if there aren't any good instructors out there or are these guys all self-taught?
There are no good hitters. Since there are no good hitters, there are no good hitting instructors or theories of hitting.
WOW that is a pretty bold and blanket statement!
Willie - would like to know if you are you basing your "no good hitters" statement on production, swing mechanics or both?
Bluedog wrote:
There are no good hitting instructors... Hitting instruction in baseball is in the dark ages.....
Bluedog - knowing you have studied and dissected many MLB hitters swings over the years...my question to you is who then has worked with these guys in developing their high-level swings if there aren't any good instructors out there or are these guys all self-taught?
Production is the only thing that matters.
The swing and mechanics do not matter.
If it works, don't fix it.
If it doesn't, better to fix it than just keep making excuses.
Ted Williams had an unorthodox swing, but it worked.
Yogi Berra would swing at 'bad pitches', but no other man can show ten world series rings that he won.
The best hiters are not text book hitters until they write the text book, but what works for them may not work universally.
The best blanket statements that agree with me are team batting averages.
The swing and mechanics do not matter.
If it works, don't fix it.
If it doesn't, better to fix it than just keep making excuses.
Ted Williams had an unorthodox swing, but it worked.
Yogi Berra would swing at 'bad pitches', but no other man can show ten world series rings that he won.
The best hiters are not text book hitters until they write the text book, but what works for them may not work universally.
The best blanket statements that agree with me are team batting averages.
NYdad, hitters don't retain what we teach them....They only retain what they teach themselves after filtering what they hear.....The good hitters figure out a way to teach themselves....The others don't..... 
I obviously got into the strike zone discussion late. I told a D1 coach that there has been more money spent on hitting lessons in the recent past and probably a decline of hitting. He agreed.
BlueDog is on to something. Swing level, keep your back elbow up, squish the bug, don't try to hit the ball hard, keep the ball down, don't stride, keep your hands still, keep your head still, rock back -- rock forward, roll your wrists ... I paid big money early for those lessons, then became my son's hitting coach.
I teach him, swing fast (or quick), knock the fence down, don't take a practice swing that is not game ready (unless warming up), forget one-handed drills, don't have a two strike routine, never have a drill where you swing at every ball, don't choke up on the bat, hit the ball line-drive to elevated, do stride, do have head movement forward but not when the front foot lands, there is no such of a thing as power hitters and contact hitters, the issue is elevation of the ball, guess if you must (watch the pitcher), ... That may all be wrong, but he still rakes. He is a 450 hitter with a 900 to 1000 slugging (50% of his hits are extra base hits and he is not that big) and a 500 on base.
BlueDog is on to something. Swing level, keep your back elbow up, squish the bug, don't try to hit the ball hard, keep the ball down, don't stride, keep your hands still, keep your head still, rock back -- rock forward, roll your wrists ... I paid big money early for those lessons, then became my son's hitting coach.
I teach him, swing fast (or quick), knock the fence down, don't take a practice swing that is not game ready (unless warming up), forget one-handed drills, don't have a two strike routine, never have a drill where you swing at every ball, don't choke up on the bat, hit the ball line-drive to elevated, do stride, do have head movement forward but not when the front foot lands, there is no such of a thing as power hitters and contact hitters, the issue is elevation of the ball, guess if you must (watch the pitcher), ... That may all be wrong, but he still rakes. He is a 450 hitter with a 900 to 1000 slugging (50% of his hits are extra base hits and he is not that big) and a 500 on base.
WilliBoBo-
You make zero sense... 3/10 won't get it in any sport???... it is obvious you are a stat-rat, and have not worked with mnay players above the little league level.. if you do work with anyone from h.s. or above, they prob didn't amount to much... but not because of lack of ability, but more so the lack of proper instruction...
more fly balls are hits than ground balls??? really, imagine that... so if you can hit it over the five guys on the infield then you have a better chabce of getting a hit ?? WOW! amazing info there...
So do you preach that because everyone in your neck of the woods still teaches swing down?
it is a no-brainer that balls in the air (fly balls, line-drives) will go for a higher avg. over ground balls... not so rocket science there... i'd love to know where/who you teach/coach... and where these players are now...
i'm amazed that some MLB team hasn't picked you up yet since all of the coaches/GM's at the pro level don't have a clue...
You make zero sense... 3/10 won't get it in any sport???... it is obvious you are a stat-rat, and have not worked with mnay players above the little league level.. if you do work with anyone from h.s. or above, they prob didn't amount to much... but not because of lack of ability, but more so the lack of proper instruction...
more fly balls are hits than ground balls??? really, imagine that... so if you can hit it over the five guys on the infield then you have a better chabce of getting a hit ?? WOW! amazing info there...
So do you preach that because everyone in your neck of the woods still teaches swing down?
it is a no-brainer that balls in the air (fly balls, line-drives) will go for a higher avg. over ground balls... not so rocket science there... i'd love to know where/who you teach/coach... and where these players are now...
i'm amazed that some MLB team hasn't picked you up yet since all of the coaches/GM's at the pro level don't have a clue...
quote:I paid big money early for those lessons, then became my son's hitting coach
This is a progression that is gaining steam.....A good progresion, I might add.....
I tell my son he now has to be his own hitting coach -- at least in the sense where he has to work on his game, and he has to make adjustments.
Even pro golfers keep a coach to fine tune and to see what they cannot. I am more my son's eyes now than anything else. As good as he is, he will have to change to be able to succeed later. He has too many holes, cannot hit the whole strike zone and is doing some things that have made his power area even smaller.
Still think there is a strike zone (beyond the control of the hitter and solely the ownership of the umpire), a hitting zone (where a kid has a chance with his swing to get a hit), and a power zone (fortunately for my son he found enough pitches here).
Even pro golfers keep a coach to fine tune and to see what they cannot. I am more my son's eyes now than anything else. As good as he is, he will have to change to be able to succeed later. He has too many holes, cannot hit the whole strike zone and is doing some things that have made his power area even smaller.
Still think there is a strike zone (beyond the control of the hitter and solely the ownership of the umpire), a hitting zone (where a kid has a chance with his swing to get a hit), and a power zone (fortunately for my son he found enough pitches here).
Will, I tend to agree that overall the hitting could be better but to say there are NO good hitters is absurd IMO. Geez now i've got my son telling his friends Puljos, Manny and Ortiz can't hit a lick. 
Bluedog,
hitters don't retain what we teach them....They only retain what they teach themselves after filtering what they hear.....The good hitters figure out a way to teach themselves....The others don't.....
Ummm it's clear as mud now....
Teach themselve's in terms of timing and pitch recognizion yes....but what about the mechanical side and the siimilarities in a high-level swing from load, launch, weight shift momentum and rotation into contact...aren't there instructors out there teaching this stuff?
Bear in mind I'm one of those fathers you guys mentioned that have become there son's hitting instructor hence the inquisitiveness...but do let me know if i'm in way over my head here and I'll move on...Thanks.
Bluedog,
hitters don't retain what we teach them....They only retain what they teach themselves after filtering what they hear.....The good hitters figure out a way to teach themselves....The others don't.....
Ummm it's clear as mud now....
Teach themselve's in terms of timing and pitch recognizion yes....but what about the mechanical side and the siimilarities in a high-level swing from load, launch, weight shift momentum and rotation into contact...aren't there instructors out there teaching this stuff?
Bear in mind I'm one of those fathers you guys mentioned that have become there son's hitting instructor hence the inquisitiveness...but do let me know if i'm in way over my head here and I'll move on...Thanks.
NYdad, the best way I can explain it is, teach them to teach themselves.....Figure out how to do this....
Read Baseballpapa's post closely.....He is on the right track.....
If you give the answers freely, they won't retain what you say.....
Read Baseballpapa's post closely.....He is on the right track.....
If you give the answers freely, they won't retain what you say.....
quote:....but do let me know if i'm in way over my head here.....
NYdad, just the opposite....You're doing well grasshopper....
Pretty good stuff, guys.......ultimately all hitters need to become their own coaches.
Bluedog, we disagree on whether hitters retain what we teach them in one regard. If you instruct a concept, show them and then let them do it, you are correct more times than not. The key then is to ask them what they have done and then reteach it and rework it until they truly understand. My experince more often than not is that when a player says he understands, he doesn't. It is then incumbent upon the coach to truly check for understanding. Players will struggle with their explinations but once they have sequenced that information, they are on the path to understanding those concepts. I hope this makes sense. BTW, anyone that thinks that they can teach a concept once and the player will "get it" is either dealing with superior athletes or kidding themselves. JMHO!
Excellent points CoachB25. I also see a number of kids that become too dependant on instructors. One thing that I try to instill in all of my kids, whether private instruction or high school player, is that they need to understand what they are doing and what works so they can evolve and improve on their own. You cannot run for help anytime things go wrong, you need to be able to fix or adjust on your own. Take the knowledge that you will be given and make it your own. When something works for you, write it down and post it somewhere where you can go over it to keep it fresh in your mind.
quote:ultimately all hitters need to become their own coaches.
Grateful, they always do.....All the great hitters learned by emulation......By watching other great hitters......Not by doing what some coach or instructor told them to do.....
Ask any great hitter who taught them to hit.....They won't spit out a coach or instructor's name......
Hitters retain what they want to retain.....And, it's much less than most think.....As long as we're watching over them, they do what we say.....But, leave them and see what they do....
