Students at High Academic School's

Not sure if this counts, but my son attends a very high academic D2 private school.  He transferred from a D1.  The classes at the D2 school are very tough.  He said the D1 was a cake walk compared to what he is in now.  My son is taking the OAT (optometry school entrance exam in January).  He knows that good grades from the school he is at will help with his acceptance recruiting.  His main drawback is that he doesn't have much free time for hunting and fishing with the extra time he now spends studying.  

Teaching Elder,

I suspect you will get a variety of answers mostly related to the player’s major and the specific school. For sure there will be lots of different experiences.  To answer your questions directly, here it goes.

1. He met with professors, TAs and other students very frequently for group projects related to his major (engineering). He got to know the professors and TAs very well and still stays in touch with a handful of them today. There have been recent professional projects he’s working on where he sought their advice.
2. I think my son had a decent shot without the Coaches assistance.   Certainly the coaches help was a “nice to have” in getting accepted to an extremely competitive school in an extremely competitive major. It didn’t hurt to have someone advocating for his ED admission application.
3. As crazy as it sounds, no. He was all about learning everything he could about engineering. It was the reason he chose the school. He told us if school got too difficult he wouldn’t hesitiate to drop baseball. He loved baseball, but he loved engineering more. I think he really enjoyed the grind of his major, and he out worked the other students. Baseball was his outlet, and he spent a lot of time with his teammates when he could. 
4. Not frustrated but aware of the PC shenanigans. He thought the weekly protests were incredibly ridiculous (some were funny) , and some of the Administration’s policies were out of touch. However, he knew it was the same challenges just about everywhere. He just blocked it out.

Teaching Elder posted:

For those who have students at Ivey's, high-level liberal arts schools, high-level publics or privates:

1) How often do your students meet and converse with their professors outside of class, (i.e., office hours)?  I've read of this happening commonly once a week?  

2) I've read people in here say that baseball got their kid into a college that they otherwise would not have gotten into.  Why would a person want to go and be both a student and an athlete at a school into which they were not qualified to enter as a student alone?   

(Some kids use high academics to get onto a baseball team that they might not have otherwise.  Soon they find themselves over matched and encouraged to transfer.  Seems that the same would be true if one used baseball to get into an academic school to which they didn't really belong.)

3) Do your students feel stifled from truly learning due to the pressure to make grades?  That is they get less chance to slow down and really enjoy and learn a subject.

4) Does your student feel frustrated by the high degree of political correctness on many of these campuses?

Very good questions- 

son goes to Johns Hopkins- was admitted with the help of football.    He's a 2014 grad

1)   He has told me that this varies by class and professor, but in general the professors are very available to the students as needed.  I'm not sure how often he meets with them.

2)  this is a good question.  Without a doubt, my son wouldn't have been admitted to Hopkins without the help of football.   His test scores were above the average test score for admittance, and he was a AP student with a high GPA.    I still do not believe he would have been admitted as he had no other "hook".   Many of these types  schools have very low acceptance rates, I think Hopkins was just under 10%.  Most of the applicants meet the criteria for admittance.   They are difficult to get in to even if you meet their quantifiable metrics to gain admittance.  They have legacy, geographical quotas, minority quotas, gender quotas, etc.  Without some "hook" - the likelihood of getting in is low.    So I wouldn't assume that the kids that get in with the help of a sport aren't qualified.  It's just the 'hook' to get them in.      The football coach at Hopkins told me that each incoming class for football has to have an average SAT/ACT that is in line with the average SAT for the freshman class as a whole.  So yes, he can "reach down" to help a kid that's not quite average, but for every kid he does that for, he has to get another kid that is above the average.   

3)  I think this depends on a lot of factors-  I've heard that this is the case at some schools-  but at his school, at least in his major, he doesn't seem to feel this way.  He's having plenty of fun, and still getting good grades- yes he has to work hard, but he seems to have embraced it.   

4)  The political correctness exists in spades.  We've spoken about this a lot, but he doesn't seem frustrated by it.   He's amused by it in most cases. 

The PC thing is one that really concerns me.  For all of the talk about folks feeling welcome, included and "comfortable" at a university, a lot of the things that I hear coming out of some schools makes me wonder just how "comfortable" my son would feel at some places.   I get that college is a place to have your worldview tested.  However, being ridiculed, scorned, punished, disrespected or shut-down because one's views aren't radical is not within the realm of decency and fairness. 

We wrote Richmond off of our list, despite both of my wife's parent's being graduates, due to their chosen cultural direction.

Son at HA DIII:

-  Excellent professor/adviser access.

-  Applied RD and likely received a helpful nudge from coach.

-  Not detecting any issues re grade pressure -- although, haven't seen any grades yet...  Seems to be working/studying hard.

-  Sure, ample "political correctness" but certainly nothing to get frustrated over (and probably not much different than most big and small colleges nowadays).  

Teaching Elder posted:

The PC thing is one that really concerns me.  For all of the talk about folks feeling welcome, included and "comfortable" at a university, a lot of the things that I hear coming out of some schools makes me wonder just how "comfortable" my son would feel at some places.   I get that college is a place to have your worldview tested.  However, being ridiculed, scorned, punished, disrespected or shut-down because one's views aren't radical is not within the realm of decency and fairness. 

We wrote Richmond off of our list, despite both of my wife's parent's being graduates, due to their chosen cultural direction.

With all due respect, I don't see what this question has to do with baseball.

Teaching Elder posted:

For those who have students at Ivey's, high-level liberal arts schools, high-level publics or privates:

1) How often do your students meet and converse with their professors outside of class, (i.e., office hours)?  I've read of this happening commonly once a week?  

 

For my son, it was quite often meeting with one professor or another, but maybe averaging once a week.  In additional to that, the school had a designated tutoring facility near the athletic facilities and had requirements to go their so as not to have to take much time from professors.

Teaching Elder posted:

 

2) I've read people in here say that baseball got their kid into a college that they otherwise would not have gotten into.  Why would a person want to go and be both a student and an athlete at a school into which they were not qualified to enter as a student alone?   

(Some kids use high academics to get onto a baseball team that they might not have otherwise.  Soon they find themselves over matched and encouraged to transfer.  Seems that the same would be true if one used baseball to get into an academic school to which they didn't really belong.)

 A LOT of students who can qualify academically for a school may not be able to get in for other reasons.  There are some rules I've heard about as to how many can come in from a HS, some kind of limit that I never quite understood or even really looked into.  There were many kids in my son's HS that were more academically qualified to get into his college than he and a few even tried and were refused.  Just a couple got in and had no athletic component.  While my son was not at the very top shelf on academics, he did pretty well and like you've heard, it was baseball that really got him into this college and had gotten offers from others likewise.

But you're right in that it doesn't seem like a good idea for someone to get themselves into a high academic school and not be able to handle it.  I'm sure the head coaches take that into some consideration.

. . . most of the time

This reminds me of one of my son's teammates who came in on my son's sophomore year.  He was a son for a former MLB player and apparently he didn't expect to be held to the same standards as the rest of the school's students.  But the end of fall ball his this kids freshman year, he was overwhelmed by the academic demands and felt that he really just wanted more time for baseball.  He left the school after the 1st semester and was drafted either.  Apparently, the HC didn't see that one coming.

Teaching Elder posted:

 

3) Do your students feel stifled from truly learning due to the pressure to make grades?  That is they get less chance to slow down and really enjoy and learn a subject.

 No doubt there's a lot of pressure to make the grades.  For some students it easier than others.  For my son, it never came easy, but he was an extremely hard worker, driven and really good at managing his time.  Could he have done better with his grades if it weren't for baseball?  Absolutely!   But in any case and despite hitting a bump or two, he thoroughly enjoyed every aspect of his college experience.  He had better, because it what his high priced "dream school". 

 

4) Does your student feel frustrated by the high degree of political correctness on many of these campuses?

 Not in my son's case.  He turned away a couple high academic school much because he didn't feel comfortable with the "political correctness" involved with the schools.  He was sensitive and wise to that issue and it's a good one to consider.  There were two of them that my wife and I would have liked him to go to and he did visit the schools and talked with the coaches and came away feeling it just would be a fit for him.  Your question is a good one and one that should be considered when deciding which school to attend.

Iowamom23 posted:

Teaching Elder posted:

The PC thing is one that really concerns me.  For all of the talk about folks feeling welcome, included and "comfortable" at a university, a lot of the things that I hear coming out of some schools makes me wonder just how "comfortable" my son would feel at some places.   I get that college is a place to have your worldview tested.  However, being ridiculed, scorned, punished, disrespected or shut-down because one's views aren't radical is not within the realm of decency and fairness. 

We wrote Richmond off of our list, despite both of my wife's parent's being graduates, due to their chosen cultural direction.

With all due respect, I don't see what this question has to do with baseball.

I assume the question/comment is designed to reflect the majority of the student body maintaining radical views.  I assumed a large majority of college kids do not hold many views period, muck less radical views.  However, the OP and some posters are of the opinion that a large majority of the student body at this particular category of schools actively and, I assume, passionately maintain radical views and create a somewhat hostile environment for those not having similar views.  Maybe the question should also include responses from parents with kids at Berkley.

This board is probably not the best place to discuss, unless there is reason to believe the culture is some way pervades the program itself, at which point they can be called out individually.  I suspect there are far better message boards than HSBASEBALL to discuss that last question.

If you want to discuss political correctness, lets discuss why softball gets more scholarships than baseball when a good softball pitcher can pitch a full double header over the weekend if necessary and then come back on Wednesday and start again.

I have two baseball players at different high academic schools. 

1) One of the greatest benefits IMO of a smaller high academic school is the openness of the profs to meet outside of class.  That may be office hours, but it's also at coffee shops, at their homes, etc.  The proximity to professors is one of the huge differences in my boys' experiences compared to mine at a larger school.

2) In my experience, it will be rare for a player to be admitted to a school in which the coaches and admissions staff feel he could not handle the work.  I'm sure it happens, but it's to no one's advantage that it does.

So why go to a school where a player's academic credentials are less than the average admit?  Lots of reasons in my boy's cases:  connection to professors, alumni network, career counseling, ability to see the field immediately, very supportive tutoring, facilities, locations, major and minor choices, etc. 

The selection of the schools weren't because my boys were less qualified than the average admit.  Baseball opened more doors for them so they had more options than if they were "students only".  They selected schools using criteria that fit their needs and wants.

3) Of course college can be hard.  And a student coming in who's statistically "less than" the average admit may find it challenging at first.  That said, ultimately every student gets judged by their performance once under the roof. 

There was peer pressure to make high grades at both boys' schools.  Neither has felt this from teachers or coaches.  Coaches at both schools have been very involved, albeit focusing more on the floor (keeping players eligible) than maximizing grades. 

Overall they both feel they have real learning environments and not high pressure to make grades.  One is on a 4 - 4 semester structure and the other is a 4 - 1 - 4.  Meaning only 4 courses to focus on per semester (and the "1" is a single course January term).

4) Definitely not. 

One boy is at a NLA college in the South.  Conservative environment, not liberal by any means.  The PC in this scenario is a 180 from the PC here in California!

The second has been at a East coast Catholic school.  Their student body leans conservative.  Student body focus has been on social justice issues in their area (homelessness, support for elementary education / tutoring, drug and alcohol counseling, etc.) and not on contentious national issues like gun control or abortion. 

Political correctness is a big deal and something that I feel could very wrll leave my son, and many others like him, feeling attacked and discriminated against.  Among the other things, Id like to know if it is as big a deal as it is reported to be, and I want to know how other's students feel about it.  Is a liberal arts or high academic school just a bad idea for us.

Teaching Elder posted:

Political correctness is a big deal and something that I feel could very wrll leave my son, and many others like him, feeling attacked and discriminated against.  Among the other things, Id like to know if it is as big a deal as it is reported to be, and I want to know how other's students feel about it.  Is a liberal arts or high academic school just a bad idea for us.

Personally, I feel a high academic liberal arts school is a great idea.  But not all are created the same.  So one just has to try and figure out which is a best or good fit. Huh?

Teaching Elder posted:

Political correctness is a big deal and something that I feel could very wrll leave my son, and many others like him, feeling attacked and discriminated against.  Among the other things, Id like to know if it is as big a deal as it is reported to be, and I want to know how other's students feel about it.  Is a liberal arts or high academic school just a bad idea for us.

There's a rich irony in this statement, however, this is a baseball site, not a political site, so I'm going to bite my dang tongue.

There are a lot of colleges and a lot of resources to help you find out what the culture is like at any of them. Best of luck to your son.

I have a son (graduated, BA Economics, middle of class) and a daughter (senior, chemical engineer with a finance minor, a bit above middle).  HS was private, religious (we just dealt with that), extremely strong academics, and very small (60 kids in graduating class, all headed to a college).  Both kids scored above the general average for kids who ultimately matriculated to their college (note: Princeton [and several other schools] could have stocked its incoming classes with ONLY perfect score and perfect GPA kids - but they don't. So, once a kid hits close to the average for the school (33ish), these schools look for other attributes (renown tuba player, ISEF winner, great personal story of perseverance, etc.).  Both kids took roughly 8 AP tests (note: at many of these schools, the AP tests - regardless of scores - don't actually get college credit or the school actually discourages credit although the kids are placed in more advanced classes (which may be very problematic because college classes are a whole lot different from the same class taught by a HS teacher).

1) How often do your students meet and converse with their professors outside of class, (i.e., office hours)? I've read of this happening commonly once a week

Professors all had office hours. Son never went. Daughter lived in professors offices. I don't think this is an athlete/non distinction; it was a personality issue.  Some professors are actually "fellows" assigned to teams. For those professors (themselves fans), son conversed and interacted on a regular basis.

2) I've read people in here say that baseball got their kid into a college that they otherwise would not have gotten into. Why would a person want to go and be both a student and an athlete at a school into which they were not qualified to enter as a student alone?

(Some kids use high academics to get onto a baseball team that they might not have otherwise. Soon they find themselves over matched and encouraged to transfer. Seems that the same would be true if one used baseball to get into an academic school to which they didn't really belong.)

First, at these schools, while standards may be a bit looser than the non-hooked student, the difference is much much less than other schools.  Kids simply aren't admitted without taking the most rigorous courses the HS offered, with matching grades and scores. Any scores/GPA differential (which is minor compared to regular students) is attributed to the time the athlete used in developing his game.

Second, virtually every student I've met at their school navigated through the "imposter syndrome."  Most students feel they do not belong intellectually; at these schools, almost EVERY student brings a deep interest or passion to the table; in other words, some areas have been plumbed to great depth which can intimidate others not so well versed.

In freshmen week (about mid term time), I remember the dean addressing an auditorium full of over-bearing helicopter parents (I was one). The dean had received multiple phone calls from parents concerned (more like freaked out) about mid-term grades in physics (usually a area of study athletes shy away from). The dean advised the parents that college and high school tests were different and that the kids would adjust from regurgitating information (lead to straight A's in HS) to analyzing problems.  The average grade for that physics mid-term was less than 20% (and no kid in that class had ever earned a grade remotely close to that before).

And, the kids did make the transistion. It was tough, really tough, but they did. 

Another point are the jobs that await virtually every student.  At Princeton, there are dozens of job openings per graduate; while getting those jobs are stressful, when employers flock to your campus, they are there for a reason and are looking for kids who are graduating from that school.

In son's four years, not a single baseball player failed to get grades. All graduated or were on track to graduate in four years (those that were drafted).

3) Do your students feel stifled from truly learning due to the pressure to make grades? That is they get less chance to slow down and really enjoy and learn a subject.

Interesting question.  Each went from a system in which they understood what was required to get an A (HS) to a system which was designed to make the student self-teach.  (In some ways, I think these schools are a con game; Princeton's "secret sauce" is its alleged "focus" on its undergrads. I would venture to guess that well over half of my kids professors taught in their second language - and that would be charitable for many.  Apart from an occasional elective here and there, for the first two years classes were well over 100 with no interaction during class with the prof. Due to the language issues, both kids were forced to develop much better study and learning habits (the school has resources devoted to helping develop these tools) as did their peers. Study groups really provided the framework for study and learning - a forerunner for the real world.

I would say for kids used to high grades, it is a shock that an A really means mastery of a subject. The entire environment is fast paced; kids study hard and party harder. Most are incredibly ambitious and in 30 years, will be well known I their respective fields.

4. The students at these schools were chosen because they were involved and passionate about SOMETHING in HS. That passion is not faux and when these kids hit a college like Princeton they are already driven to explore new things to great depths. They are loud and boisterous and not afraid to share their world view.

But the world view is not homogenous - it represents all sides of the political spectrum and is equally loud and boisterous from every angle. For my kids, it opened up new vistas, new friendships with people who don't have the same skin color, religion, political background, or socio-economic background. (Heck, one of his teammates was the son of a presidential candidate - and not a liberal one.)

I want my college educated kids to be able to think critically of other positions, and unless they have proponents of those ideas offering them up for consideration, and hashing out the differences, sketching out areas of agreement as well as disagreement, how will they learn to respect other world views and critique those views (as well as their own)?  The world is a harsh place and it's better to be exposed early (IMO).

To conclude this novel, a kid has nothing to fear about these schools; he is surrounded by motivated kids, unbelievable opportunities in the classroom, on the field, in jobs.  Graduating these schools doesn't guarantee anything other than a significant head start in the marathon of life - but every advantage that baseball can bring is welcomed and if that means admission, so be it!

Teaching Elder posted:

For those who have students at Ivey's, high-level liberal arts schools, high-level publics or privates:

1) How often do your students meet and converse with their professors outside of class, (i.e., office hours)?  I've read of this happening commonly once a week?  

2) I've read people in here say that baseball got their kid into a college that they otherwise would not have gotten into.  Why would a person want to go and be both a student and an athlete at a school into which they were not qualified to enter as a student alone?   

(Some kids use high academics to get onto a baseball team that they might not have otherwise.  Soon they find themselves over matched and encouraged to transfer.  Seems that the same would be true if one used baseball to get into an academic school to which they didn't really belong.)

3) Do your students feel stifled from truly learning due to the pressure to make grades?  That is they get less chance to slow down and really enjoy and learn a subject.

4) Does your student feel frustrated by the high degree of political correctness on many of these campuses?

Getting in the door is often the hardest part, the academics may not be as intimidating as people make them out to be. I blame the information age for a large part of the problem. Let me explain my theory:

Back in the dark ages (before the Internet), most of us had to develop a fairly short list of colleges to apply to based on a number of factors. We actually had to fill out paper applications for the college and send them in via USPS. The process of typing up the applications alone was time consuming, but I think we can all agree that prior to the Internet we all applied to what, maybe 2-4 schools total? How many are your kids applying to? Seven to twenty is pretty common.

I haven't the time or desire to look up the actual numbers of applicants prior to the Internet for schools such as Harvard, Stanford, USC, UCLA, Duke, etc...but if I was a betting man I would bet that those numbers skyrocketed 100-2000% after college applications became an on-line experience. I read recently that Stanford, as an example, has not increased the number of students actually admitted into its hallowed halls in a very long time, yet the pool of applicants competing for admission for that fairly static number of open seats has grown exponentially, thereby making the actual percentage of admitted applicants grow smaller - with the net effect of making it one of the most selective schools in the country to gain admission to. Couple that now with the fact that since it is easier to apply, you are seeing more HIGHLY COMPETITIVE students applying, thereby making it tougher to get in the door for that pathetic academic weakling with a mere 4.0 GPA (sarcasm, 4.0 is a rock star in my book).

As a former student myself who attended a public JUCO, then a "for-profit" university, then a highly competitive and academic powerhouse on the west coast on par with a Stanford or Duke, I think I can speak first hand that if a student is competent they can perform fine at a high-academic school. The biggest hurdle is the admissions process. Once you are in the door, then you need to make the most of the opportunity. If your goal is graduate school, then you better have your "A" game to make the most of the GPA for admission decisions for medical, law, or other post-grad studies. Otherwise if you plan on entering the workforce right out of college, most applications for employment do not ask for your GPA or a copy of your transcript. Keeping it real, I have known some not-so-smart folks who attended high academic schools and who have done quite well for themselves...so if they can make it through, the common college student likely can as well.

That said, I believe that anything that is a differentiator that can get you into the better academic institution is worth the trouble. Our kids happen to play baseball, and if that opens a door or knocks down one of those hurdles, then consider yourself lucky.

Good grief that was a mouthful.

Goosegg posted:

 

4. The students at these schools were chosen because they were involved and passionate about SOMETHING in HS. That passion is not faux and when these kids hit a college like Princeton they are already driven to explore new things to great depths. They are loud and boisterous and not afraid to share their world view.

But the world view is not homogenous - it represents all sides of the political spectrum and is equally loud and boisterous from every angle. For my kids, it opened up new vistas, new friendships with people who don't have the same skin color, religion, political background, or socio-economic background. (Heck, one of his teammates was the son of a presidential candidate - and not a liberal one.)

Ha, Chris Christie's kid. I remember watching him hit a home run on TV in college playoff and Christie sitting in the bleachers and cheering just like us normal baseball parents.

According to other online forums, Princeton is one of the most balanced (in terms of PC culture and left-right politics) college in the Ivy league, so your kids may have got lucky there.

(If anyone interested, I can copy the "political balanced" list over, but that's not related to baseball though. The surprise for me on that list: UC Berkeley, which I thought was an extreme liberal college, but according to experts, they have mellowed out and balanced. )

I don't see anything wrong with the question about the political climate of a university.  Yes this is a baseball site, but we discuss "fit" all the time.  If we are only going to stick to baseball here, academics shouldn't be discussed either.  

Teaching Elder posted:

 

We wrote Richmond off of our list, despite both of my wife's parent's being graduates, due to their chosen cultural direction.

Interesting.  Richmond was the first school to offer my son, and he really liked it.  He could see himself going there.  Very good school, good offer, and close to home which kind of met his initial criteria.  It is a 15 mile drive from the house and he'd visit the campus to meet with the RC (at the time) every so often.  After a while, he noticed it was not culturally diverse at all....everybody was like him.  He asked the Admissions folks about that, and they told him there was a movement (this was 7 years ago) to become more culturally diverse.   So, I think it is a fair question to go back to them (if your son is still interested in pursuing) to ask about their diversity progress if that is the one thing holding him back from pursuing Richmond.  JMO.

Matty posted:

I don't see anything wrong with the question about the political climate of a university.  Yes this is a baseball site, but we discuss "fit" all the time.  If we are only going to stick to baseball here, academics shouldn't be discussed either.  

To me, there is a huge difference in defining the "fit" in terms of academic REQUIREMENTS/EXPECTATIONS and a nebulous undefinable concept as the "political climate" of a school.

We all know what a 30 ACT is and what it does to open doors. We all know that a 3.95 uwGPA opens doors. These are quantifiable numbers which schools use as an element in the admissions process.

Looking back, however, I do not recall anything on any college application (one for son, a dozen for daughter) which asks for the kids political beliefs or tips the schools "political climate."

One element is objective and doesn't change kid by kid or family by family. The other is subjective and not only differs family by family and kid by kid, but will also evolve as the heretofore sheltered HS kid is exposed to kids who have chosen to take their personal time and read philosophy, history, whatever, and begin the process of creating their own individual identity - which may or may not differ  - when all is said and done - to their own background.

In our case, the camaraderie of the team trumped any "political" differences. For example, while the team did kneel in prayer before each game (lead by the religious players who also may have lead bible study sessions), players who chose to not participate were not ostracized, called out, criticized and neither did the non-participating players ostracize, call out or criticize their more "spiritual" teammates.

Yes, there is a lot of "awareness" which bubbles up during a college experience at these schools.  These schools are but microcosims for society - controversies raging outside the campus quickly become campus controversies (because the kids have the time, patience, rudimentary knowledge, passion and close proximity to each other to engage).  But these schools have built an entire student body designed to do just that - debate, engage, challenge, participate, learn.  There are colleges which are fairly homogeneous and where kids even sign pledges to comply with all rules (ranging from politics to dating).  

(Who am I to say that a person of color should be forced to eat in a dining hall with a huge mural of a white supremacist peering down at the diners? I wasnt even aware of that until some young, passionate group of people (of all colors) brought it up. And to those kids, I say "thank you," because you forced me to actually see what was in front of me and walk a block in your shoes.)

While I don't look to personal anecdotes as proving principles, I will say that I have had spirited jousting sessions with my daughter over "gender studies." While I initially dismissed her points as PC, as she moved through the class (an elective she thought was one of the best classes she had taken) I began to listen to her more, read more, think more, and begin change what had been fairly rigid positions.  I evolved (maybe not to her positions, but I'm old and more rigid) and began to be more open to learning these "new" ideas. At these schools, the kids are confident enough to teach and evolve their parents. 

(I will also note this: what a parent is reading about the happenings on a campus - whether through the campus newspaper or even national reporting - is sensationalized [just like all media] to attract a reader's attention.)

If you keep your kid from Harvard, Yale, Princeton, Cornell, Penn and the rest because of your "knowledge" that these are left-wing pointy headed elite bastions, the only one at a disadvantage is your kid, because the parent has made a decision that this HS baseball phenom just can't keep up intellectually with kids with other viewpoints and would be swamped intellectually, emotionally, spiritually, by his peers.  Have more faith in the child you raised - he will do just fine engaged in spirited debate with a person he would never have met except for the school and who had a radically different background.

Well...how do you define, "Fit."  How do you objectively quantify it?

Teaching Elder posted:

Well...how do you define, "Fit."  How do you objectively quantify it?

You can't. It's a feeling, not a fact.

Two points. One: "perfect" fit doesn't exist.  Cultural, academic, athletic, geographic and other parameters help guide a student towards a cool place to learn for 4 years. Two: competition for spots has always existed. If you're interested, read Joan Didion's piece on her rejection from Stanford...in 1958. 

I agree that social fit is not quantifiable.  It's a feeling your kid has when he is on the campus visiting.  Take advantage of all offerings to do overnight visits, both with the team and if one is offered to all potential students.  

Matty posted:

I agree that social fit is not quantifiable.  It's a feeling your kid has when he is on the campus visiting.  Take advantage of all offerings to do overnight visits, both with the team and if one is offered to all potential students.  

Social fit is quantifiable. It may not be in all cases. Put a non preppy kid in a preppy environment and see if he notices the difference. He will. Put a northeastern urban/suburban kid in a rural south environment and he will notice. (Don't take offense anyone/just the way it is) I know kids who left rural south colleges. They got tired of hearing about Jesus every day.

I would imagine every student-parent has their own version of "Fit".  From academics, social, geography, sports, culture....  Our 2018 is seeking a high academic and we know political and social views will be challenged more so than your average university.  The high academic student body is exceptionally smart and they'll always be pushing the social & political envelopes.  Any student entering that environment needs to be comfortable with their own views and respect alternate views.  We hope our son will advance his ability to debate, respect differences of opinion, while keeping the emotions in check.     

These kids will be exposed to the same uncomfortable conversations post college, why not learn in while in college.  

Agreed Gov.  Worldview challenges are valid. College is a time for resonable exposure and testing of beliefs.  But, "Safe spaces" and "Trigger warnings" serve to squelch the challenging of worldviews and silence those who don't fit the mold.  

Also, irrational protests, where people attempt to profess a belief into reality, are a waste of valuable time and are frustrating to thoughtful students.  Saying, "Not my president" over and over will not make it true.  I know my son would be "Triggered" if he were going to college and class was cancelled because a group of kids were off in coloring book and play dough therapy because a candidate lost an election.

Being persistently irrational doesn't work in the real world.  Just check out youtube videos of the "Sovereign Citizens" interacting with police.

(I will also note this: what a parent is reading about the happenings on a campus - whether through the campus newspaper or even national reporting - is sensationalized [just like all media] to attract a reader's attention.)

The above statement is likely what would prompt one to ask the original question. The statement below is a thoughtful response. In my opinion...

In our case, the camaraderie of the team trumped any "political" differences. For example, while the team did kneel in prayer before each game (lead by the religious players who also may have lead bible study sessions), players who chose to not participate were not ostracized, called out, criticized and neither did the non-participating players ostracize, call out or criticize their more "spiritual" teammates.

College used to be about the exchange of ideas, debate and critical thinking. Now it's about safe spaces, trigger remarks, teddy bears, coloring books and shouting down anyone with less than liberal ideaology.

How many of you have students who were not originally interested in high-academic schools but went due to being able to play baseball?

Balance is the key. I'd like to avoid extreme to either side. What Goosegg described is perfect -- open and honest debate about all issues, no sacred cows! But then again, Princeton is a pretty special place, not all colleges are like that.

I have some ideas to test the political culture. For liberal leaning colleges, mention that you are a Trump supporter or you don't believe in global warming, and see how the people react; for conservative leaning colleges, mention that you support Hillary and abortion and you are an atheist. Watch the facial expression on the tour guide or admission officer or student panel. It'll be fun.

Teaching Elder posted:

Agreed Gov.  Worldview challenges are valid. College is a time for resonable exposure and testing of beliefs.  But, "Safe spaces" and "Trigger warnings" serve to squelch the challenging of worldviews and silence those who don't fit the mold.  

Also, irrational protests, where people attempt to profess a belief into reality, are a waste of valuable time and are frustrating to thoughtful students.  Saying, "Not my president" over and over will not make it true.  I know my son would be "Triggered" if he were going to college and class was cancelled because a group of kids were off in coloring book and play dough therapy because a candidate lost an election.

Being persistently irrational doesn't work in the real world.  Just check out youtube videos of the "Sovereign Citizens" interacting with police.

Concur, I'm leaning on the past with hope this is only a small minority of students creating this noise, with the press and social media taking it to another level.   Different times.....   We do have family friends with kids at these campuses; when these kids see these shenanigans, they walk by viewing them as idiots only adding noise to the campus.  

Conservative students probably need some thick skin if their considering elite academics schools.  At the end, we all have a choice.

Gov posted:

Teaching Elder posted:

Agreed Gov.  Worldview challenges are valid. College is a time for resonable exposure and testing of beliefs.  But, "Safe spaces" and "Trigger warnings" serve to squelch the challenging of worldviews and silence those who don't fit the mold.  

Also, irrational protests, where people attempt to profess a belief into reality, are a waste of valuable time and are frustrating to thoughtful students.  Saying, "Not my president" over and over will not make it true.  I know my son would be "Triggered" if he were going to college and class was cancelled because a group of kids were off in coloring book and play dough therapy because a candidate lost an election.

Being persistently irrational doesn't work in the real world.  Just check out youtube videos of the "Sovereign Citizens" interacting with police.

Concur, I'm leaning on the past with hope this is only a small minority of students creating this noise, with the press and social media taking it to another level.   Different times.....   We do have family friends with kids at these campuses; when these kids see these shenanigans, they walk by viewing them as idiots only adding noise to the campus.  

Conservative students probably need some thick skin if their considering elite academics schools.  At the end, we all have a choice.

If we only are willing to allow ourselves to be exposed to points of view that we agree with, then the experience of going to college has lost a great deal of its value. We don't have to agree with on another, but allowing our kids to explore, listen, generate their own opinions on issues is where the real value lies in a college education. Building walls around ourselves as to what we are willing to listen to helps to create this "noisy" environment in my opinion. People get loud when they feel they aren't being heard (as parents, we have all used this tactic). Let's get realistic here, this post is really that YOU aren't comfortable with the environment, not your child. Kids entering college have their opinions and philosophies shaped by their centers of influence, and there is no greater COI than parents. I want my kid to develop their own world views, have what they currently think challenged and hopefully that will broaden them as a person. I am neither conservative nor liberal, and I'm open to hearing both sides of the argument. Hopefully my kids (and yours) will develop the same way so that we can stop this "ditch to ditch" process of policy making in our country.

Teaching Elder posted:

For those who have students at Ivey's, high-level liberal arts schools, high-level publics or privates:

1) How often do your students meet and converse with their professors outside of class, (i.e., office hours)?  I've read of this happening commonly once a week?  

2) I've read people in here say that baseball got their kid into a college that they otherwise would not have gotten into.  Why would a person want to go and be both a student and an athlete at a school into which they were not qualified to enter as a student alone?   

(Some kids use high academics to get onto a baseball team that they might not have otherwise.  Soon they find themselves over matched and encouraged to transfer.  Seems that the same would be true if one used baseball to get into an academic school to which they didn't really belong.)

3) Do your students feel stifled from truly learning due to the pressure to make grades?  That is they get less chance to slow down and really enjoy and learn a subject.

4) Does your student feel frustrated by the high degree of political correctness on many of these campuses?

Hi Teaching Elder. To answer your questions.....

1) Son is able to meet with professors outside of class as he feels the need. Teaching assistants make themselves available as well. As is the case with a number of schools ( I currently teach a course as an adjunct at a high (small h) academic school, office hours may be only a couple of days a week for FT, and less than that for adjunct.  Key for him is finding a trusting classmate with notes, in the event he misses a class for mid-week away game.

2) Though many (including coaches) felt that son could get into most schools in the country on his academic record, I felt wary of him not being a recruited ("supported" ) athlete at a school that has rejected #1s in class and perfect SAT recipients.  He was "supported" . But your point is well taken,  because if a student goes to a school with high academic demands (pressures) that don't match a players track record, he'll struggle.

3) Son has always been a "grade junkie" (gets that from dad I guess .) He's definitely learning, especially in the STEM related classes he's taking. Not much extra time though.  It really takes a kid with good organizational (and time management) skills as well as the academic chops, to succeed at a high academic. As many posters on this site have attested, there are many demands (time, etc) on the college athlete that many aren't accustomed to.

4) I wouldn't say son was frustrated by the amount of political correctness on campus. I think he finds some of it entertaining. After the election his physics test was made a take home, and an economic class canceled a test. His response-- soft. I told son that his views & beliefs would be contrary to many when he arrived and to be aware of that. School has an active Athletes in Action chapter which is a good outlet for him  All and all he likes the diversity.

I'll conclude with a text I received from son, during the second week of class this semester:

"Today my International Challenges professor blamed climate change for the Rise of Al Qaeda..so that's that."

Teaching Elder posted:

For those who have students at Ivey's, high-level liberal arts schools, high-level publics or privates:

1) How often do your students meet and converse with their professors outside of class, (i.e., office hours)?  I've read of this happening commonly once a week?  

2) I've read people in here say that baseball got their kid into a college that they otherwise would not have gotten into.  Why would a person want to go and be both a student and an athlete at a school into which they were not qualified to enter as a student alone?   

(Some kids use high academics to get onto a baseball team that they might not have otherwise.  Soon they find themselves over matched and encouraged to transfer.  Seems that the same would be true if one used baseball to get into an academic school to which they didn't really belong.)

3) Do your students feel stifled from truly learning due to the pressure to make grades?  That is they get less chance to slow down and really enjoy and learn a subject.

4) Does your student feel frustrated by the high degree of political correctness on many of these campuses?

Hi Teaching Elder. To answer your questions.....

1) Son is able to meet with professors outside of class as he feels the need. Teaching assistants make themselves available as well. As is the case with a number of schools ( I currently teach a course as an adjunct at a high (small h) academic school, office hours may be only a couple of days a week for FT, and less than that for adjunct.  Key for him is finding a trusting classmate with notes, in the event he misses a class for mid-week away game.

2) Though many (including coaches) felt that son could get into most schools in the country on his academic record, I felt wary of him not being a recruited ("supported" ) athlete at a school that has rejected #1s in class and perfect SAT recipients.  He was "supported" . But your point is well taken,  because if a student goes to a school with high academic demands (pressures) that don't match a players track record, he'll struggle.

3) Son has always been a "grade junkie" (gets that from dad I guess .) He's definitely learning, especially in the STEM related classes he's taking. Not much extra time though.  It really takes a kid with good organizational (and time management) skills as well as the academic chops, to succeed at a high academic. As many posters on this site have attested, there are many demands (time, etc) on the college athlete that many aren't accustomed to.

4) I wouldn't say son was frustrated by the amount of political correctness on campus. I think he finds some of it entertaining. After the election his physics test was made a take home, and an economic class canceled a test. His response-- soft. I told son that his views & beliefs would be contrary to many when he arrived and to be aware of that. School has an active Athletes in Action chapter which is a good outlet for him  All and all he likes the diversity.

I'll conclude with a text I received from son, during the second week of class this semester:

"Today my International Challenges professor blamed climate change for the Rise of Al Qaeda..so that's that."

Forget it.  I was trying to post a gif of Sam Kinison from Back to School saying, "Good Answer."  My lack of technical acumen made that a failed attempt.

This post has been an interesting read.My recurring thought however, while reading is :

'Yes, these points create an entertaining debate on HSBBWEB....but they'll rarely if ever factor into a recruits decision to accept an offer'

These sort of lofty discussions about socio-cultural preferences and the amount of 1 on 1 time w/ professors hardly play a role in a 2017's life when its December 2016 and he has nowhere to play next year!

If a player IS  fortunate enough to have a few offers to sift thru, the decision will be based more on finances , baseball and hopefully academic preference. 

This sort of hair splitting discussion usually originates from parents viewing / gauging the recruiting process/ cycle . Parents who are in it or have been thru this don't talk like this.

The harsh truth about NCAA recruiting is that offers from ANY school: Progressive, conservative , red state , blue state are extremely hard to come by. Let's not forget this.

FACT: Less than % 4.0 percent of the HS baseball players will play at the NCAA level.

pabaseballdad posted:

Teaching Elder posted:

For those who have students at Ivey's, high-level liberal arts schools, high-level publics or privates:

1) How often do your students meet and converse with their professors outside of class, (i.e., office hours)?  I've read of this happening commonly once a week?  

2) I've read people in here say that baseball got their kid into a college that they otherwise would not have gotten into.  Why would a person want to go and be both a student and an athlete at a school into which they were not qualified to enter as a student alone?   

(Some kids use high academics to get onto a baseball team that they might not have otherwise.  Soon they find themselves over matched and encouraged to transfer.  Seems that the same would be true if one used baseball to get into an academic school to which they didn't really belong.)

3) Do your students feel stifled from truly learning due to the pressure to make grades?  That is they get less chance to slow down and really enjoy and learn a subject.

4) Does your student feel frustrated by the high degree of political correctness on many of these campuses?

Very good questions- 

son goes to Johns Hopkins- was admitted with the help of football.    He's a 2014 grad

1)   He has told me that this varies by class and professor, but in general the professors are very available to the students as needed.  I'm not sure how often he meets with them.

2)  this is a good question.  Without a doubt, my son wouldn't have been admitted to Hopkins without the help of football.   His test scores were above the average test score for admittance, and he was a AP student with a high GPA.    I still do not believe he would have been admitted as he had no other "hook".   Many of these types  schools have very low acceptance rates, I think Hopkins was just under 10%.  Most of the applicants meet the criteria for admittance.   They are difficult to get in to even if you meet their quantifiable metrics to gain admittance.  They have legacy, geographical quotas, minority quotas, gender quotas, etc.  Without some "hook" - the likelihood of getting in is low.    So I wouldn't assume that the kids that get in with the help of a sport aren't qualified.  It's just the 'hook' to get them in.      The football coach at Hopkins told me that each incoming class for football has to have an average SAT/ACT that is in line with the average SAT for the freshman class as a whole.  So yes, he can "reach down" to help a kid that's not quite average, but for every kid he does that for, he has to get another kid that is above the average.   

3)  I think this depends on a lot of factors-  I've heard that this is the case at some schools-  but at his school, at least in his major, he doesn't seem to feel this way.  He's having plenty of fun, and still getting good grades- yes he has to work hard, but he seems to have embraced it.   

4)  The political correctness exists in spades.  We've spoken about this a lot, but he doesn't seem frustrated by it.   He's amused by it in most cases. 

Gender and racial quotas for admissions have been ruled to be unconstitutional and do not exist at any college or university that receives federal funding which is 99.999% of  all colleges or university. To be quite honest, I don't believe that they ever existed.

I can say this.  A lot of you folks have some pretty impressive kids.

YERT16 posted:

pabaseballdad posted:

Teaching Elder posted:

For those who have students at Ivey's, high-level liberal arts schools, high-level publics or privates:

1) How often do your students meet and converse with their professors outside of class, (i.e., office hours)?  I've read of this happening commonly once a week?  

2) I've read people in here say that baseball got their kid into a college that they otherwise would not have gotten into.  Why would a person want to go and be both a student and an athlete at a school into which they were not qualified to enter as a student alone?   

(Some kids use high academics to get onto a baseball team that they might not have otherwise.  Soon they find themselves over matched and encouraged to transfer.  Seems that the same would be true if one used baseball to get into an academic school to which they didn't really belong.)

3) Do your students feel stifled from truly learning due to the pressure to make grades?  That is they get less chance to slow down and really enjoy and learn a subject.

4) Does your student feel frustrated by the high degree of political correctness on many of these campuses?

Very good questions- 

son goes to Johns Hopkins- was admitted with the help of football.    He's a 2014 grad

1)   He has told me that this varies by class and professor, but in general the professors are very available to the students as needed.  I'm not sure how often he meets with them.

2)  this is a good question.  Without a doubt, my son wouldn't have been admitted to Hopkins without the help of football.   His test scores were above the average test score for admittance, and he was a AP student with a high GPA.    I still do not believe he would have been admitted as he had no other "hook".   Many of these types  schools have very low acceptance rates, I think Hopkins was just under 10%.  Most of the applicants meet the criteria for admittance.   They are difficult to get in to even if you meet their quantifiable metrics to gain admittance.  They have legacy, geographical quotas, minority quotas, gender quotas, etc.  Without some "hook" - the likelihood of getting in is low.    So I wouldn't assume that the kids that get in with the help of a sport aren't qualified.  It's just the 'hook' to get them in.      The football coach at Hopkins told me that each incoming class for football has to have an average SAT/ACT that is in line with the average SAT for the freshman class as a whole.  So yes, he can "reach down" to help a kid that's not quite average, but for every kid he does that for, he has to get another kid that is above the average.   

3)  I think this depends on a lot of factors-  I've heard that this is the case at some schools-  but at his school, at least in his major, he doesn't seem to feel this way.  He's having plenty of fun, and still getting good grades- yes he has to work hard, but he seems to have embraced it.   

4)  The political correctness exists in spades.  We've spoken about this a lot, but he doesn't seem frustrated by it.   He's amused by it in most cases. 

Gender and racial quotas for admissions have been ruled to be unconstitutional and do not exist at any college or university that receives federal funding which is 99.999% of  all colleges or university. To be quite honest, I don't believe that they ever existed.

Interesting, I don't believe they have stopped! 

old_school posted:

YERT16 posted:

pabaseballdad posted:

Teaching Elder posted:

For those who have students at Ivey's, high-level liberal arts schools, high-level publics or privates:

1) How often do your students meet and converse with their professors outside of class, (i.e., office hours)?  I've read of this happening commonly once a week?  

2) I've read people in here say that baseball got their kid into a college that they otherwise would not have gotten into.  Why would a person want to go and be both a student and an athlete at a school into which they were not qualified to enter as a student alone?   

(Some kids use high academics to get onto a baseball team that they might not have otherwise.  Soon they find themselves over matched and encouraged to transfer.  Seems that the same would be true if one used baseball to get into an academic school to which they didn't really belong.)

3) Do your students feel stifled from truly learning due to the pressure to make grades?  That is they get less chance to slow down and really enjoy and learn a subject.

4) Does your student feel frustrated by the high degree of political correctness on many of these campuses?

Very good questions- 

son goes to Johns Hopkins- was admitted with the help of football.    He's a 2014 grad

1)   He has told me that this varies by class and professor, but in general the professors are very available to the students as needed.  I'm not sure how often he meets with them.

2)  this is a good question.  Without a doubt, my son wouldn't have been admitted to Hopkins without the help of football.   His test scores were above the average test score for admittance, and he was a AP student with a high GPA.    I still do not believe he would have been admitted as he had no other "hook".   Many of these types  schools have very low acceptance rates, I think Hopkins was just under 10%.  Most of the applicants meet the criteria for admittance.   They are difficult to get in to even if you meet their quantifiable metrics to gain admittance.  They have legacy, geographical quotas, minority quotas, gender quotas, etc.  Without some "hook" - the likelihood of getting in is low.    So I wouldn't assume that the kids that get in with the help of a sport aren't qualified.  It's just the 'hook' to get them in.      The football coach at Hopkins told me that each incoming class for football has to have an average SAT/ACT that is in line with the average SAT for the freshman class as a whole.  So yes, he can "reach down" to help a kid that's not quite average, but for every kid he does that for, he has to get another kid that is above the average.   

3)  I think this depends on a lot of factors-  I've heard that this is the case at some schools-  but at his school, at least in his major, he doesn't seem to feel this way.  He's having plenty of fun, and still getting good grades- yes he has to work hard, but he seems to have embraced it.   

4)  The political correctness exists in spades.  We've spoken about this a lot, but he doesn't seem frustrated by it.   He's amused by it in most cases. 

Gender and racial quotas for admissions have been ruled to be unconstitutional and do not exist at any college or university that receives federal funding which is 99.999% of  all colleges or university. To be quite honest, I don't believe that they ever existed.

Interesting, I don't believe they have stopped! 

That may be your opinion and I can't change that but its not based on any factual evidence.  if you have any factual evidence to support your belief, I'd love to hear it.  

Teaching Elder posted:

For those who have students at Ivey's, high-level liberal arts schools, high-level publics or privates:

1) How often do your students meet and converse with their professors outside of class, (i.e., office hours)?  I've read of this happening commonly once a week?  

2) I've read people in here say that baseball got their kid into a college that they otherwise would not have gotten into.  Why would a person want to go and be both a student and an athlete at a school into which they were not qualified to enter as a student alone?   

(Some kids use high academics to get onto a baseball team that they might not have otherwise.  Soon they find themselves over matched and encouraged to transfer.  Seems that the same would be true if one used baseball to get into an academic school to which they didn't really belong.)

3) Do your students feel stifled from truly learning due to the pressure to make grades?  That is they get less chance to slow down and really enjoy and learn a subject.

4) Does your student feel frustrated by the high degree of political correctness on many of these campuses?

1) Maybe I'll find out over Christmas break, assuming he talks to us more when he's at home than he does when he's at school).

2) Not necessarily qualified to answer this, as I think he'd have gotten in without baseball.  That said, baseball probably didn't hurt, and I assume for many kids it's the case that baseball is more of a way to separate themselves from the rest of the otherwise qualified kids, and not a way to get themselves in over their heads.

3) He's always been hyper-competitive about getting good grades, just a function of his personality that extends to (or maybe from) baseball.  It's never stopped him from also enjoying the subject matter, whether it's Differential Equations or 20th Century Film (both of which he's taking this semester).

4) He's both extremely liberal and a giant jackass while at a granola-crunchy-ish LAC where he hangs out with athletes.  Relative to 4 years of mostly rich-white-kids HS, I'm guessing he's doing OK while figuring out how to "adult" relationships in the real world. Anyone concerned about being frustrated by "political correctness" should either make sure they're choosing an appropriate school for themselves, or just broaden their horizons a little and recognize they're probably going to run into a lot of smart people who they don't agree with wherever they go (and that this isn't a bad thing).