Stupid Coaches

I watched a nationally ranked 10U (10 yr olds) USSSA Majors team out of Atlanta play last week. Pitcher used the curve on just about every hitter he faced. The team's coach was bragging to me that he has 8 pitchers just like that one. He then went on to say he discourages his players from playing any other sports and that they can play tournament ball year 'round. My thoughts were; 10 year olds throwing the curve year 'round... I hope those kids are still around to play the game by the age of 14...

The question of arm damage not withstanding why teach a kid to throw a curveball at the shorter mound distance anyway? He is only going to have to relearn it all over again for 60 ft 6 inches

Banning curveballs would be ridiculous because then you'll have umpires having to make judgement calls on balls that move. I don't know if you'd necessarily want to put a number on how many curve balls a kid should throw but if they do have a curve in their bag of tricks, they should be able to throw it properly and throw it at appropriate times depending in the batter and the situation as opposed to a steady diet just because 10-12 yr old kids can't hit it. This is where they should be learning to pitch.

However pitchers at 10-12 yrs old who throw mostly curve balls are doing themselves no good down the road if they hope some day to develop into high school pitchers simply because by throwing so many curves, they don't develop their fastball. You can fool 10-12 yr olds all day with the curve ball or something they're throwing at that age resembles a curve ball because they don't know how to hit it. They'd get the same results learning a changeup but all kids like to throw curves.

When they get older, or start playing travel, legion or high school ball, that apprach will fail pitchers because hitters eventually learn to recognize the breaking ball and lay off the junk because often, it isn't a strike and at the same time, their fastball never improved because they never used it and developed it as much as they should so if they havent learned to locate it or failed to add some mph to it because they lived off curveballs all their life. As a result, they never learn how to pitch and they'll get hammered.

I would just like to thank the coaches out there who let their kids throw a ton of curveballs.

Dman Jr had a lot of problems with curveballs when he was 11. Always swung at them and sometimes even hit them.
He is now 14U and saw an average of 10 cb per game while playing around 80-90 games for the last 3 years. He can now judge them pretty well and punish them on occasion.

I am not sure if any of the pitchers who threw 90% curveballs are ever going to play in HS, but they really increased JR's chances.

Thanks coaches!

ASMI researched youth pitchers throwing curves. They could not find a connection between properly thrown curves and arm injuries in youth pitchers. They found a connection between pitching too often and uyouth arm injuries. ASMI was founded by Dr James Andrews, the most prominent sports orthopedic surgeon in the world.

quote:

Originally posted by Doughnutman:
I would just like to thank the coaches out there who let their kids throw a ton of curveballs.

Dman Jr had a lot of problems with curveballs when he was 11. Always swung at them and sometimes even hit them.
He is now 14U and saw an average of 10 cb per game while playing around 80-90 games for the last 3 years. He can now judge them pretty well and punish them on occasion.

I am not sure if any of the pitchers who threw 90% curveballs are ever going to play in HS, but they really increased JR's chances.

Thanks coaches!

That is a beautiful comment! Mind if I use it...?

2 seasons ago we played a very highly USSSA nationally-ranked 11u team in which their goofy-Head-coach's own son threw 80+ pitches and we counted around 60 were curveballs... At this level, ANY curveball regardless of how actually good it is, is a GREAT curveball because our kids NEVER saw them... They went on to win a fairly close game, and I thought it was a great experience... After that we (coaches) started throwing good, tough-curves to our guys in BP so they could get used to seeing them... last season, we batted .386 as a team, because teams couldn't sneak "bad-curveballs" by our hitters anymore...

Feel free bolts, it isn't copyrighted(yet).

My other pet peeve with youth cb's is that many coaches tell their kids not to swing at them.

When is a better time to swing at cb's and learn how to hit them than youth ball? When they miss they learn. Sometimes they even remember what you told them about hitting the cb. Usually after the at bat but it sinks in over time. It is much better to learn how to hit them when you are 10-14 than when you step on the HS field IMHO. Take advantage of those cb coaches for your kids benefit.

Let'em take their hacks!

I can assure you that my son who is starting his last year of D1 threw at least 90% CBs since 10yo. Never injured and never missed an inning of BB due to sore arm.
He was over used and when he was tied they told him to stay with the off speed stuff. They told him that because they knew it was less stressful than his FB. As a midget he pitched 4 times in 5 days and faced Leaside who were the top midget OBA team in Toronto that year. He just threw CB after CB and they were not as good as he normally threw them. He picked off 5 guys in that game and threw right into the 9th until he loaded the bases with lack of control. The coach took him out and the coach came over after the game and was laughing. He said I have coached you son since he was 9 and he never yelled at me before. He said he had them right where he wanted them. Bases loaded and 1 out.
If you ask my son what was stressful on his arm it was the FB.
People just hate being shown up by a guy throwing slow mo.

cchs07 maybe they know more than you do about CBs. It was actually Tom House that 1st mentioned that CBs were not harmful if thrown properly.

We had an Pediatric Orthopedic Surgeon on my son's 11u team this year and he has been interviewed locally and published some papers on sports related injuries.

I asked him about the debate on curve balls at a young age. I asked him to shoot straight and not give me the "company line". He sighted the study by Dr. Andrews and said that they followed several little league pitchers for an entire season and charted all of their competitive pitches. A competitive pitch was defined as anything with a batter in the box. BP, real game, etc.

He said the findings did not show the type of pitch made a difference. In fact, different mechanics did not seem to make a difference. The study sighted the number of pitches as the single greatest determining factor in injuries to young pitchers. After 650 competitive pitches the number of arm injuries sky rocketed. Another factor that had more significance than type of pitch was arm strength. Those pitchers with stronger arms who threw harder than the average pitcher saw more injuries.

He went on to admit that there was a "company line" that Doctors follow because that is the safe road and no one wants to be labeled a crack pot or rebel in the medical field for stating the opposite of everyone else. He said as more studies are done and more information shows that pitch selection has less of an affect than pitch counts more doctors will change their tune.

The final straw for me was when he said if his son had a decent curve ball he would let him throw it in moderation.

Just passing it on...

For what it is worth, my son does not throw anything but fastballs and change ups.

I really don't want to get into the cb vs. fb thing and I am sure that a properly thrown cb is better for an arm than an overthrown fastball. But I have never seen a properly thrown cb at the youth level. I have seen plenty of breaking balls but the kids throwing them either don't do it properly and end up with a "slurve" or slider or they over throw the heck out of it with a nasty snap on the end trying to get that K.

That is why I don't like them. It is much easier to throw a proper fastball or circle change than a proper cb and they are just as effective in geting outs. Not K's but outs. My son is going to wait until he stops growing and at that time, if he is still pitching, then great. Throw a cb.

I see. So because you don't know much about CBs you refrain from throwing one. The one you are talking about should not be thrown until around 16yo.

Bobblehead,
I am sure that your son threw them very well at a young age and continues to throw them very well indeed. The proof is obviously in his success.
What I am seeing is that young kids are being taught how to throw a c/b, but when it counts and they need a strike out or they are facing a really good hitter, they over throw the pitch or really try to snap it off and mechanics go to heck. That is what I see in every tournament that we play in. We also see kids that throw 90% curveballs and they rarely throw it the same way twice.

This is the dangerous time in my opinion. I would rather have my son over throw a f/b or c/u than c/b before he is fully grown. I am not trying to change your mind. I am just trying to explain my position. I am 100% sure that many people on this site will take your side. People with a lot more experience than me.

Back to the original poster about 12y/o pitchers throwing so many curveballs from 46`.Great point!
That is too short of a distance to get much break
from a properly thrown CB.Good location with your
FB and a CU mixed in seems safer than snapping off
50 CB`s a game in LL.IMHO.

quote:

Originally posted by Doughnutman:
Feel free bolts, it isn't copyrighted(yet).

My other pet peeve with youth cb's is that many coaches tell their kids not to swing at them.

When is a better time to swing at cb's and learn how to hit them than youth ball? When they miss they learn. Sometimes they even remember what you told them about hitting the cb. Usually after the at bat but it sinks in over time. It is much better to learn how to hit them when you are 10-14 than when you step on the HS field IMHO. Take advantage of those cb coaches for your kids benefit.

Let'em take their hacks!

Are you familar with the name Gary Ward? He was the head coach at Oklahoma State when it was called Hitters U. He told his hitters not to swing at curves unless there were two strikes. The best way to not get beat by a curve is don't swing at it until you have to. In youth ball most curves are in the dirt. The pitcher gets behind in the count and has to come "middle" with the fastball.

The only time I tell my players (16u) to hit curves is if they think the pitcher is prone to hang one and they're looking for it. There's nothing prettier than a hanging curve being knocked out of sight on the second pitch of the game by a lefty off a dumbass lefthanded pitcher who thinks he can fool him with a hook.

quote:

Originally posted by RJM:
There's nothing prettier than a hanging curve being knocked out of sight on the second pitch of the game by a lefty off a dumbass lefthanded pitcher who thinks he can fool him with a hook.

LOL

RJM,
I am sure that college kids at the D1 level:
1 Know how to hit a bad c/b
2 The pitchers really know how to throw them.
3 Learned by hitting a lot of them in practice and games.

Youth baseball is the best time to learn how to hit them. Who cares if they make an out? I would rather have them learn a new skill and they can get more selective later on. IMHO it will be a lot harder to make a HS team if you can't hit a cb in the zone and it is a lot harder to hit one when it is 0-2 and you have to protect the plate. Heck, it is harder to hit a fastball 0-2 for that matter.

Who cares if they make an out?

They do!

And therefore we coaches should too. Practice is the time to learn how to hit them. Games are for the players and we should do all we can to help them reach their goals.

Extreme,
They also get all excited and think they did something right when they hit a lazy fly ball and the outfielder turns it into a triple.
At the youth level I would rather have them learning. Kids learn all of the time. We teach during games when the lesson is fresh whenever possible. It seems to stick with them better. Like swinging at a curveball that started thigh high and ended up in the dirt. Great time for a little reminder.

If its high let it fly, if it's low let it go. Take your hacks. Try to go oppo with it. Take it up the middle. Take one for the team.

Simple stuff.

Its not really the problem of actually throwing the curve but the amount it is thrown. Throwing a curveball is like anything in life...Try and keep it in moderation.

Most coaches think just cuz in a pro or college game there are lots of curves thrown with success and that 12 year olds need to throw them all the time to be successful but 12 year olds aren't the same as pros. I made good batters look stupid in high school with the change it's a great pitch and totally under used at the youth level.

Doughnutman:

What you say is true but the original post came off to me as a little too much "take your medicine kid"...

Any good coach pushes players to learn the game and needs to push them beyond their comfort zone to do that effectively. I just wanted to add to the conversation that it is important to keep their goals in mind and not come off as "Well, I know better than all you whippersnappers, so you will strike out and like it! Cuz' it's good for ya!"

Brussel Sprouts were probably good for me, but I still faked eating them when I was a kid and played brussel sprout basketball from the kitchen table to the kitchen sink...

I hear you extreme. It is always difficult to tell nuance from the typed word. If I was good at it I would be writing the next great american novel.

Our guys are about as far from the "whippersnappers" type as a coaching staff can get. We just don't mind if they fail on occaision. Our only goals are(and I have typed them many times):

1. Have fun.
2. Get better.
3. Stay healthy.

Winning usually takes care of itself and we win our share of tournaments. The entire coaching staff has the above goals along with the ultimate goal of getting them as prepared as possible for HS. The parents are also on board. It is a great situation and I am very thankful to be involved in it.

To get back on topic, our top five pitchers all rely on the fastball for outs. 2 of them, not my son, throw a curveball 1-2 times an inning. Their parents are OK with it now that we are 14U. Just goes to show you that on the same team you can have differences of opinion and still get along.

What interests me is that the most renowned authority on throwing injuries tells you something and you guys still don't accept it.Many have a belief system and this goes against evrything you believe and have taugh.
All my son's pitching teammates all threw CBs at 10yo and most are playing college ball with little or no arm issues. My son swears the FB was harder on his arm. He is 22yo and never had a problem. His hard throwing teammates have all had problems and several do not pitch anymore. One pitched in D1 and he was medical red shirted twice.

You objectives are very nice for rec ball but I would have a hard time with a team that didn't demand excellece from the players. Fun is the result of being excellent at what you do.

Well Bobblehead,
That is the funny thing about scientific studies. They tend to change over time. You never know and every kid is different. Maybe the difference in arm injuries is something little like max effort pitchers get hurt the most and what they throw and how often doesn't mean a thing. Get them all to throw at 90% and all of the injuries go away. How you can judge that I don't know.

And we are far from a rec league team. Never confuse fun with mediocrity. We just try our best to avoid burnout in kids that play national level tournament ball 9 months a year. We aren't the best team in the nation, but we can compete with anybody.

No doubt "overuse" is the main reason for injury. That problem exists in one form or another in almost every sport from marathon runners, to gymnist growth plate issues, cyclist with hip problems, swimmers with shoulder issues, etc.

Couple points that I've noticed in my limited tenure as a ball coach at the youth levels:
1 - Strike zones are "loose" for the younger ages. Coaches know this. So, when they observe an umpire with a loose zone, they will throw the kid with the breaking ball more frequently. We played everywhere from East Cobb to Florida and most umps at 11U are giving the pitchers at least 6 inches on both sides of the plate.

2 - Back to the original poster's point: "Stupid Coaches" is kinda harsh, but I think he's referring only to those that have no regard for a players wellfare. If a kid has a breaking ball that he can throw for a strike, the coach is likely to call that pitch. And he's likely to call that pitch more often. And if the pitcher is having success in a tournament game, the coach is not likely to pull him until the kid is tired. That's the primary reason I don't want my own kid throwing the breaking ball. If a coach knows he has it, the coach is going to use it frequently. And likely use it until the kid gets fatigued. Just came from a WS tournament in Florida where the tournament winning team pitched their breaking ball throwing 11U pitcher 16 innings over 3 days. Proper curve ball techniques don't matter when an 11 year old kid has to pitch that much. Its too much. I think its these type coaches that the original poster was referring to.

So yes, throwing too much is the main reason for injury, but having a successful breaking ball at a young age might actually worsen the former issue if the team has a "stupid coach"...

How did we (old timers) ever survive without all the rules and regulations we see now. Back i the neanthedral days we played every day on the sandlots. the equipment was not inspected. the fields had rocks broken glass. Cant remember wearing a helmet. Played till it was dark. If you had a curve ball you threw it because nobody could hit a good one. We all survived. many of us played high school a some college and 1 played some professionally. How did that happen?

I think the main difference is, back in the day, if you hurt your arm you just stopped playing or pitching instead of going to a doctor to get surgery. It was more a case of genetics than care.

I think reporting injuries along with having the surgical/rehab option have a lot to do with today's increased numbers.

Growing up, I never heard of one kid in another town who hurt his arm but I knew a few who stopped playing/pitching because of it in my town.

quote:

Originally posted by RETIRED GM:

quote:

Originally posted by RJM:
There's nothing prettier than a hanging curve being knocked out of sight on the second pitch of the game by a lefty off a dumbass lefthanded pitcher who thinks he can fool him with a hook.

LOL

I learned this hitting approach by being the dumbass lefty pitcher. I had one hammered so far it was a "three point homer." It sailed through the goal posts on the football field behind the rightfield fence. If you want to see how far the ball went, do a Google Earth on Hadlock Field (Portland Seadogs) in Portland, Maine. They haven't moved home plate or the goal posts since I threw the pitch. If you look up the ball is still in orbit thirty-five years later.

You can debate the wheres and whys but the fact is that ASMI reported their finding based on case studies. The fact is based on real life cases that more guys had surgury due to over use and FB. Not CBs as many believe.
There are more cases mainly due to the fact that new techniques can restor normal function of the throwing arm. Medicine has come a long way in all fields.

I Googled ASMI=American sports medicine institute & found an article at the top the page called Arm pain in youth pitchers, "the major fidings of the study were;
*the incidence of elbow or schoulder pain increased with the # of pitches thrown in a game.
*the incidence of elbow or shoulder pain increased with the # of pitches thrown in a season.
*pitchers who threw curveballs or sliders had greater incidence of pain than those who did`nt.
*no relationship between poor mechanics and increased risk of pain could be established.

based upon the results from this study,it is recommended pitchers between 9 and 14 years old
do not throw curveball or slider.These pitchers should utilize the fastball and change up exclusively.It goes on to talk about pitch counts.

Bobblehead is this the ASMI you are talking about?

quote:

Originally posted by westcoastbuckeye:
I Googled ASMI=American sports medicine institute & found an article at the top the page called Arm pain in youth pitchers, "the major fidings of the study were;
*the incidence of elbow or schoulder pain increased with the # of pitches thrown in a game.
*the incidence of elbow or shoulder pain increased with the # of pitches thrown in a season.
*pitchers who threw curveballs or sliders had greater incidence of pain than those who did`nt.
*no relationship between poor mechanics and increased risk of pain could be established.

based upon the results from this study,it is recommended pitchers between 9 and 14 years old
do not throw curveball or slider.These pitchers should utilize the fastball and change up exclusively.It goes on to talk about pitch counts.

Bobblehead is this the ASMI you are talking about?

Good post, WCB.

ASMI Article

I've seen that. However, in ASMI's presentation to Little League Baseball in which they advocate for the pitch count rules, you can see through out the presentation, the speakers say that youth pitchers should not throw a curve ball. However, when they present their studies, they sort of stutter, hem and haw and say that there really is no evidence that throwing the curve ball is more stressful on the arm. It is almost like they are wanting to stick to the old addage that a curve ball is bad, but they can't prove it. Here is a link to the presentation:
www.littleleague.org/pitchcount/pitchpresentation.htm

They talk about doing a biomechanical study on the forces placed on the arm while throwing a fastball, changeup and a curveball. The study specifically shows that fastball is the hardest on the arm, curveball is second and changeup is easiest.

That is the ASMI I refer to and there latest finds cannot establish a link between CBs and arm injury. They have only recently actually tried to find the link to arm injury and the results contradict there old theories. actually they would recommend that you don't pitch period or even throw a BB. We are talkinmg about comparative evils if you will. CBs and especially LL CBs thrown without the tomahawk action are safer than any other pitch. I posted a video of my son throwing it and you could clearly see that it wasn't stressfull on his arm.
You cannot group sliders with CBs.

bobblehead I cannot find the study you are talking about.Everything they have found goes against what you say your son did as a youth pitcher.Why you use
ASMI to back the way your son played as a youth is beyond me, but thanks for turning me on to a wonderful resource that cements the fact that youths
should not throw curveballs until they shave.

BBman put a link to a dicussion that bears me out on the CB. I attribute his survival without injury even when over used to the fact that he threw very few FBs and his mechanics. I know I have had this argument way too many times to think I can cnvince you. There have been numerous discussions and several kowledgeable posters over the years who have also had the same results.
A thread had alluded to the latest opinions several times and people surprised by ASMIs new take on the subject.

Here is a comment from the thread from someone who found the infp and did read it:

Another of the non-intuitive revelations that recently came out of ASMI was: Throwing breaking balls does not seem to correlate with youth pitcher injuries--at least in the studies conducted so far--despite a tremendous amount of 'common baseball wisdom' to the contrary. In fact, Fleisig and Andrews specifically looked for that correlation, hypothesizing ahead of time that it would be found. However, when the presumed correlation was not found, they were good enough scientists to report their findings without bias.

in that survey the #1 enemy of youth pitching was throwing too many pitches.Yet you talk about having your son pitching way past fatigue, how does this strenghen your argument, I do not see how you can use the ASMI to back your argument. Dr. Drisko from
ASMI recommends waiting until a player needs to shave before throwing his first curveball.Also the research for the survey was paid for by little league right after they received some bad publicity
about youths throwing too many curves ie; LLWS.

quote:

What interests me is that the most renowned authority on throwing injuries tells you something and you guys still don't accept it.

From a book I read once:

Expert: pronounced: ex + spurt. As anybody knows, an "ex" is a has been; a "spurt" is a drip under pressure.


There is also one so-called expert now saying that ball players should play catch yearround. That there is no need to take a couple months off.

I finally broke down and went to asmi

No curveballs age 9-12
http://www.asmi.org/asmiweb/research/usedarticles/elbshopain.htm

Am I missing something or is there another part of the site that says it is OK for kids to throw curve balls? I read most of the articles(slow work day).

Below is a paste from a forum discussion on the ASMI website. It includes a question from a member and a response from Dr. Fleisig with ASMI. Dr. Fleisig gives the same link to the site that I gave in my earlier post.

Here is a link to the page with the below paste:

http://asmiforum.proboards21.com/index.cgi?board=youth&...ay&thread=288&page=4



jdee
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Re: Discussion about Pitch Counts for Youth Pitche
« Reply #47 on Aug 28, 2007, 10:45am »

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Dr. Fleisig, just wanted to get your comments on the litte league world series. It seems the pitch counts are now enforced in the series, but don't you think that kids throwing almost half of their pitches as curve balls or sliders is worse on thier arm than a high number of pitches?

JDee
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Glenn Fleisig, Ph.D.
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Re: Discussion about Pitch Counts for Youth Pitche
« Reply #48 on Aug 29, 2007, 10:47am »

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JDee,

That's a reasonable thought, but the current research is not pointing in that direction. The research implies that amount of pitching is much more important than types of pitches. If you have the time, you might want to click here to watch the presentation Dr. Andrews and I gave to Little League.
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Sounds like they can't make up their own minds. I would like to see the newer study that is "pointing in that direction" because the one on their web site says no curve balls age 9-12.

Once again, here is the link to the presentation that Dr. Andrews and Dr. Fleisig did to little league. It is also posted several posts up.

www.littleleague.org/pitchcount/pitchpresentation.htm

And yes Doughnut, it does seem like they can't make up their mind. Even in this presentation, you will hear them say over and over that the curveball is not dangerousand that there is no evidence that the curveball is dangerous to the arm, but, then state that you should not throw the curveball. Really kind of weird.

Like I said earlier, it really seems like they are stuck on the old assumption that the curveball is bad, but their research shows that this is not the case and they are still struggling with this, just like many of the people who have responded to this post.

They are writing one thing and not sure about it. I only had time for the first section and that was pretty clear.

they recommend
fb age 8
cu age 10
cb age 14
kb age 15
everything else 16 and above

They also state that breaking balls should not be thrown until the kid starts shaving.

Those things are taken directly from their presentation.

They also say that no one really knows what is the perfect time table.

They also state that breaking balls are related to higher amounts of pain in the shoulder and elbow. Never a good thing.

I haven't the time today to listen to the rest, but are you saying that they contradict this later on in the formal presentation?

Very weird indeed.

Dman JR is going to work on velocity, location, and the cu until he starts shaving. If he can't get batters out with those tools he shouldn't pitch anyway IMHO. Why risk it just to get a K?

Yes they do. It is weird. Listen to the second section. They sort of build a case for more pain throwing curveballs, then say that the biomechanics tests show that curveballs cause less force on the elbow and shoulder. Dr. Fleisig actually seems a little confused by the information as he presents it.

All right,
I just listened to the whole thing. On the cb front, they said that it was inconclusive, use common sense, and they have experts saying don't do it.

How in the heck does anybody get it is OK for pre shaving kids to throw cb's out of this presentation? He said it is inconclusive one time at the end. He said they don't hate cb's. He said that fatigue, over use and bad mechanics are the main culprits in arm injury.

He never said it was OK for young kids to throw cb's. Not once in the version I listened to. They recommeded to not throw breaking balls until a kid shaves about 5-6 times. Breaking balls increase pain in the joints. How can that be good?

Where did anyone get that it is OK from this presentation? From a couple of small studies that were inconclusive?

Wow, I am more convinced than ever. Fatigue, overuse, and bad mechanics are number 1,2 and 3. Breaking balls are also a concern and shouldn't be thrown until the bones are set. They made that very, very, clear to me. They also said a kid who throws over 80 is much more at risk but that is not a problem. Yet.

ditto D-Man where is the proof that curves are safer than FB`s.If you follow there advice throw no more than 50 pitches a game and no more than 200 per season.I think somebody has been looking for a
study to back there own belief`s.And if they really
cared what the scientific studys have been saying for 20 years youths throwing CB`S ARE NOT GOOD.No
where does ASMI ever say anything to dispute this.

Look back to my post several posts ago. Dr. Glenn Fleisig stated in that post that "The research implies that amount of pitching is much more important than types of pitches." That is directly from him.

Also, they do say in the presentation that those that threw curveballs in a game were more likely to experience some pain. The survey (it was a survey, not a study) does not break down the specifics of what went on during the pitching outing. In other words, it is possible that the pitcher who only threw fastballs, only pitched 30 pitches and the pitcher who threw curveballs threw 90 pitches. That might not be the case, but it might very well be the case. There was also no evidence that shows that if you throw a curveball, you are more likely to need surgery.

The biomechanical study they did showed that the curveball puts less force on the arm than a fastball.

I, like you, heard over and over that you should wait to throw a curveball. But when it came down to it, both Dr. Andrews and Dr. Fleisig stated that the amount of and frequency of pitching overall is much more important than whether or not you throw a curveball.

If you all go back to the original post it was regarding the poster watching a game where 12 year olds were 40-50% in a game.
The whole key is in moderation, not necessarily what pitch is thrown, but how much in a game and how often the young pitcher takes to the mound. The whole problem with the CB is the success younger players find with it, then it becomes their steady diet. In this day and age of youth travel ball, pitchers more and more than before. It takes YEARS to develop proper mechanics, yet we see 12 year olds throwing 3 different pitches in games. Those three different pitches means lots of practice as well. At 12 mine had 2 pitches, FB and CU, that was enough to work on until 14 when he was introduced to the CB. The whole thing is about using common sense.

As far as this new scientific conclusion, it most likely will change. The only constant factor in all of their studies has been ONE thing, excess.

No matter which way one views it, throwing a baseball in an unnatural motion and LOTS of different factors come into play regarding an individual pitchers injury.

I agree with you TPM. My son is 15. He has been pitching since he was 8. At 10 he was throwing a fastball and change up with a lot of success. At 11 he modified his grip and started throwing a breaking ball. I had a number of coaches and pitching coaches watch and make sure it wasn't going to be bad on his arm. His pitching coach (currently pitching coach for AA team) called this pitch a cut fastball. I'm not sure because the pitch moves away and down on a righty (he's a righty). He has never had any pain in his arm or elbow.

The biggest thing we do with him is keep pitch counts, take him out when he begins to tire and make sure he gets plenty of rest between outings. I think that is the biggest reason he has remained injury free. If he pitches to the point of fatigue, he will not throw off a mound for at least 3 full days, usually more.

Coaches need to know their pitchers. Never let them throw when they have tired, always let them get their rest between outings. Believe me, we have lost a number games because we took him off the mound either because of pitch count, or because he was tiring. You can't get so caught up in the game that you let a kid suffer to try to win a game especially before high school. It means nothing at that point. I have seen coaches let their pitchers go forever and just wonder what is going to happen to that kid as he gets older.

Bottom line is, it is amount of pitching and lack of recovery time that are the biggest culprits.

Common sense tells you that if a CB is less stressful you can throw more pitches. Also genetics plays a part in the ability to throw a lot of pitches along with great mechanics. When my son got tired he stopped throwing his FB. His own opinion was that the FB was more stressful on his arm than his offspeeds. The latest findings by ASMI state that they tried to find a direct link between CBs and injury and couldn't. They found no evidence that the CB put stress on the elbow etc. The MLB CB has wrist snap in a tomahawk motion and should not stress the arm aswell.
Typical LL CBs have a sweeping 12-6 motion and the ML CB has a late break motion whuch was taught to my son at 15 by the head scout of the Jays at a camp he ran in the winter here. The 1st time I researched CBs was reading Tom House Pitchers Edgdge series and he also said the CB was not a dangerous pitch. My daughters boy fiend taught my son the LL CB and he was a MLB prospect . He also said that CB was not stressful. My son used to mix in a FB or a modified circle change once in a while but if he was tired he stuck to off speed pitches. This allowed him to pitch longer than he could otherwise. In fact if he had to rely on his FB he probably wouldn't be a pitcher today.

My son would pull himself if he didn't feel 100%.

OK look, this can get swept into 1000 tangents but here's why it's 'confusing':

There are 2 separate studies performed by ASMI which (on the surface) seem to conclude opposite things.

STUDY 1: Kinematic comparison of various types of pitches
LINK: http://www.asmi.org/asmiweb/research/usedarticles/various_types.htm
Conclusion: "this study did not offer any credence to a common belief of many coaches that throwing a curveball is more stressful to the throwing arm compared to throwing a fastball."

STUDY 2: Effect of Pitch Type, Pitch Count, and Pitching Mechanics on Risk of Elbow and Shoulder Pain in Youth Baseball Pitchers
LINK: http://www.asmi.org/asmiweb/research/usedarticles/elbshopain.htm
Conclusions:
(a) "Pitchers in the 9-14 age bracket who threw sliders were 86% more likely to experience elbow pain during the season. Pitchers who threw curveballs were 56% more likely to experience shoulder pain during the season."
(b) "as pitch counts increased, the number of cases of shoulder and elbow pain also increased. At the 75-99 pitch count range, the risk of shoulder and elbow pain increased by 52% and 35% respectively."

So, it may seem the good Dr.'s are confused. On the one hand, they say it is less stressful to throw a breaking ball than a fastball; on the other hand they note higher incidences of pain in young pitchers who throw breakers.

I would suggest that neither study is conclusive or complete. They are good for what they are. Telling us that 9u-14u pitchers throwing sliders have higher incidences of reported pain is interesting, but does not necessarily relate to injury. It does not account for mechanical differences (is a well-throw curve ok? They don't know).

But on the flip side, the first study does not mean go throw as many breaking balls as you like. It is simply a kinematic study measuring pressure on elbow and shoulder joints. It also does not suggest that injury is LESS likely. That was not part of the study.

So, to folks who rely on the first study to justify their 10u pitcher throwing 70% breaking balls- you are overstating your case. This study does not repudiate previous research, it just gives us all something to think about.

And to folks who use the second study to conclude that curveballs=arm surgery/problems, you are also overstating your case. The research simply doesn't show breaking balls to be as bad for pitchers as some believe.

I didn't use either study to conclude that CBs were safe. The latter findings are more recent and were conducted specifically to try and prove a link. They concluded that there was no link.
I based my opinion on Tom House and his pitchers edge series and my son's assessment of what was hard on his arm. I also had great advice from his doctor who was a pitching coach with the Rangers and collaborated with House/Ryan on that series of books.
ASMI seemed to reach a conclusion in the eary studies before they did the research. I think they were surprised at their findinds in the latest research.

Makes a lot of sense Xtreme. Although I think throwing a curveball is not as bad as some think, I would never have a pitcher throw 70% breaking balls. Got to mix it up.

Take a look at Adam Loewen. A 95-96 mph LHP. He is not able to pitch anymore. A 3.2 million dollar bonus and a 4 million 4 year contract and he is finished. He has been plaued with arm problems for years.

quote:

No matter which way one views it, throwing a baseball in an unnatural motion

Apparently this one has been called into question as well. I'll have to get the name of the guy who believes it from my high school coach, but this guy doesn't believe throwing a baseball is unnatural. My high school coach and I were talking about it in the weight room yesterday.

All of these studies are nice, small but nice, but it comes down to your own personal experience whether you are pro or con on the cb debate. My son has shown me his cb and it is late breaking and nasty without a snap to it. Having huge hands help with spin. But he is not throwing it in a game or bullpen. He was shown how to properly throw one by his teams pitching coach and I am sure he would be the strike out king if he threw it. But he isn't done growing yet so it can wait.

I know that I can throw batting practice fastballs for 2-3 hours without any joint pain, just fatigue and muscle soreness. I can throw cb's for about 20 minutes before my elbow hurts and I lose all control over all of my throws. I assume my son has similar genetics to me(at least that is what my wife says) so no cb's for MY son until he starts shaving. In my opinion only, he needs to work on velocity, accurracy and the cu. He can get outs with those any day. We will just add pitches to his repetoire as he gets older and I think he can handle it.

We will err on the side of caution. What's the rush?

Believe me, I am not trying to convince anyone to do anything they don't want to do. I am all for you holding off with your son, Doughnutman. I won't try to convince you otherwise. All I was trying to do was point out what the guys at ASMI were saying.

It's really kind of like the old egg debate. They used to be good for you, then they were bad, now they are good again. Probably never know for sure.

I do believe genetics have a lot to do with it. Minimize your risks by limiting overuse - should be universal. Beyond that, it's up to the individual.

FYI
I started a poll in general discussion.

I'd be curious to see what age the kids are to see if there is a generational gap. Plus, kids who hurt their arms and aren't playing baseball anymore, probably don't have their parents coming to this site.

I am still curious to see the results.

What we have to go on is our own personal experiences. What have we actually seen during the course of our time in and around the game? What have people told us? What have we actually experienced?

I have never seen a young kid develop a good healthy arm with above average velocity that threw curveballs at a young age. Never. I have seen many youth stud pitchers that did in fact throw curveballs that never pitched in hs.

Why take the risk if you do not know? What is gained from throwing breaking balls at a young age other than fooling young hitters and winning youth games? What is the rush?

Young arms should be developed over time with the emphasis on proper throwing mechanics. There arms are not ready for the stress of throwing breaking balls. They dont learn how to actually pitch. Do what you want to do with your kid. But if you dont allow breaking balls what have you lost. And if you do are you ready to assume the responsibility if it goes wrong? Will you wonder if that arm problem was a result of your decision to allow it? Will you wonder if he inability to develop velocity as he gets older was a result?

Why take the risk? Is it that important to be a 12 year old stud pitcher who fools youth hitters?

i am not really on topic but i think it does relate to it.
i believe arm injuries for the most part are an accumulative injury. from pitching to much and not throwing enough. you may not actually have that ucl tear until much later.
i believe most tj surgery's come from throwing hard,before the body is ready. i would say most pitchers that need tj are hard thrower's. just my opinion.

i have talked with Dr. Andrews on several occasions. he said kids are throwing cb way to early. and there are more tj surgery's than ever at younger and younger ages.

for every player like bobbles their are players like mine. while he didn;t throw a cb until he was 14, he was ridden like a rented mule. has many trophy's ,all everything and a half moon scar on the inside of his left elbow.

nobody ever get's hurt ....until they do.even then nobody will remember why. exept the opposing players that couldn't hit his cb.

sorry to ramble.

Coach May I don't think that pitchers develop FBs on the mound. They develop arm strength by working out.
I can assure you that my son and a few others I know would not be college pitchers today if they had to rely on their FBs at an ealy age. Throwing a CB is a talent that has to be developed and not all kids can do it effectively. It requires a touch that most who only throw FBs have a hard time mastering.

Nice post Coach May I agree what is the rush,plus
I am not willing to chance my son`s future.

20Dad sorry to hear about your son being rode like a rented mule, I saw this last weekend with a 12y/o
pitcher who threw 140+ pitches in a travel tourney
game,one curve after another.The next game(back to back games)he was at 2nd and could barely
throw to first.

Got the same argument going on over in the General Forum. Coach May is right on. From my post on the other side:

This web site is about HS baseball and if you (or your son) want to make your HS team you must posses a good FB. End of story. There are exceptions.... but they are just that.... exceptions.

When little Johnny LL curveball wonderboy walks on to the field as a Freshmen with his blazing 62 MPH FB and the kid next to him is throwing 75, guess who is going to get the coaches attention. The best pitch in baseball has always been, and will always be a well located FB.

BOF are you telling me that your freshmen in HS can only muster 62-75. They would be the slowest pitcher on my son's HS team back then. I considered 80 slow.

Coach May, excellent post. While we know that each young man and his genetics are different, I too have never seen a kid with a Great hook before age 13, become anything in high school. Kids who were working on developing their arms and fastballs, usually had a better chance of pitching in higher levels. I had read recently that ASMI discouraged a CB under 15 yrs old, and I have always followed that position, even before they wrote it. If a youth pitcher can't get batters out with FB and CU, then he should move to the outfield. Some Dads just want everyone to know that 11 yr old johnny has a great hook. I think this thread got 5 check marks for its Stupidity.

It's fun how you guys beat up on little Jonny and his dad. Fact is this dad waswn't hung up on myth and did his research and got the best coaching info I could. He was MVP in his freshman year as a varsity pitcher. Another fact is that if my son was at risk I would have stepped in and talked to him. His coaches never let him go out unless he was 100% and asked him every time he went to the mound. He was paranoid about arm injury. One time I asked him why he came out and he said he wasn't feeling 100%. He had just struck out 7 guys of the nine he faced in 3 innings. Was he caught up in the moment. Not at all. He had sat and cooled down in i9nclement weather and pulled himself. You guys look at old research and will never change and I am happy for you.
Everything I have seen refutes your beliefs. ASMI as you know now states they cannot find a relationship between CBs and arm injury. That doesn't mean that you won't injure your arm throwing one but you are more likely to hurt yourself thyrowing too often and FBs. I have seen way too many guys injured throwing FBs. Just a fact I have noticed.

i would say more than a few good hs pitchers either weren't good or didn't pitch much,in youth baseball. not all but more than a few.

Bobble I totally agree with you when you say a fb is not developed on the hill. It is developed by working on good throwing mechanics , long toss etc etc. I do agree that learning to throw a good breaking ball takes time and a feel for the pitch. Now there are some kids that have a natural feel for a breaking ball as well. Some kids find it a little harder to get a feel for. I think there is a big difference in learning to get a feel for a breaking ball at a younger age and pitching in games and spinning it up there pitch after pitch.

quote:

Originally posted by BobbleheadDoll:
BOF are you telling me that your freshmen in HS can only muster 62-75. They would be the slowest pitcher on my son's HS team back then. I considered 80 slow.

BHD:

As mentioned my son was a HS Freshmen last year will be Soph this year. I purchased a Stalker and have used it at most games and have developed a pretty good idea of REAL pitching velocities. (note Mcdsguy "Dad minus 7 rule" apply's here - it is really accurate)

I am continuting to build up the data base and I keep a log book of all of the pitchers that I measure. I gunned a few kids off of the Simi High team that won the So Cal HS championship and saw a couple of 4th rounders taken in this years draft.

This is what I can say so far: (more to come as my son moves up)

Ave HS Freshmen: 70-72 Lots at 68-70.
Elite HS Freshmen: 76 (seen one throw 80)

Ave HS JV: 75-76
Elite HS JV: 79-81

Ave HS Vars: 79-80
Elite HS Vars: 85+

Note I have seen MORE HS Varsity pitchers below 80 than over 80. Tops I have seen was working 87-89 with 91 max. (taken in 4th round as mentioned)

A former pitching coach of my son said (and I am not sure where he got this data) that a Freshmen throwing 78 was in the top 3% of the pitchers nationwide.

I admit I have not seen a lot of competitve league Varsity games, but this data is from SoCal in a very competitive baseball area. As mentioned I will have a much better idea on Varsity level next year but this is real data, not some number from a "Dad" sitting in the stands guessing.

A few things here:

Why does a dad of a frosh/soph need a radar gun?

Too many talk about what they hear or questionable data---why?

Why do parents make judgements based on information they themselves cannot validate?

C'mon folks ---let get real

My readings were from a jug and my son was considered slow at 80 mph in varsity. Several of the pitchers were drafted as well or D1 college throwing 90 +. My son's reading were from MLB camps. At 17 he was throwing 83-84 and had scouts all over him but they wanted more velocity. The craxy thing is his velocity hasn't really changed much at 22 yo even after 3 years of college.
We did have lots of sub 80 pitchers but they were not very successful as a rule. We had several that were 85+ based on MLB camps readings. I also had a jug that was used by his elite team and charted their home games. They also had several 85+ guys. Below 80 was considered very slow.

BHD:

PGStaff can verify what is considered recruitable velocities, but I consider these the elite category. One's that go to a D1’s or are draftable. You know the stats; these are the 10% of the Varsity HS players that move on to college or above. The facts are that there are many many other kids throughout the US (and Canada) playing HS baseball and many will not throw over 80, they can have fun, be successful, and enjoy the experience.

You also know better than I that the make up of a HS pitching staff . You have your number 1 & 2 who most likely are in (or close to) the elite category that are getting 90% of the mound time in league play, and/or playoffs. Then you have the number 3-6 kids who are getting innings outside of league or are spot relievers. From a numbers stand point they make up a much larger population. These are the kids that I call average.

Since this is in the PreHS thread about breaking pitches, etc. I think the important point from all of this is that if you (or your son) aspires to be the number 1 or 2 pitcher on your HS team you better be working on a good FB NOW. You might make it without one, but then you better a) Be a Lefty b) As Coach May pointed out be a very good “pitcher” who can locate well.

The bottom line is that the higher the velocity you can throw the better your chances.

quote:

playing HS baseball and many will not throw over 80, they can have fun, be successful, and enjoy the experience.

Great post. Need to be placed in the Hall of Fame for post. As has been mentioned here a few times, less than 1% of high school players will play in the PROs.


From BOF post on average speeds, it looks like there is a 5 mph in average velocity from Soph to junion and another 5 mph from junior to Senior.

Question for the Coaches out there in your experiance at what ages (on average) do you normally see the biggest gain in MPH for a pitcher?

Our HS pitchers were only allowed 12 outs. You had to have some good pitchers to round out the P staff. There were actually several who went to D1 college ball and a few to pro ball. What I found in HS was that sveral guys were going through hormons and wanted to work to buy a junker so they could date and party. I never considered them college or pro prospects. When guys get to 16-18 their interests change. I found this true in AAA city ball as well. Many had no prospects so they didn't take it seriously I considered that quite normal so my son chose to not play HS or AAA ball in his last year of HS. On his elite team about 50% went on to play college ball at some level. I might add that very few had any arm injuries. They worked out year round. Some injuries occured while in college but not many.

I would say over the years the biggest jump in velocity has come from the Soph season to the Jr season.

Of course the guys that work hard in the off season have jumped every year. But it seems from my experience that time between the soph and jr year you see the most.

I definitely agree with Coach May about personal experience amd youngsters throwing CBs. I have seen two boys throw CB more than usual in LL and then both have Tommy John surgery after their sophmore year in HS. The funny thing is that both kids were the hardest throwers in their age groups and didn't need a curve ball to get kids out.
I think the parents like seeing their sons pitch "like the pros" and got a kick out of their 11 yo son making other 11 yo look bad. I believe it is a parents responsilbity to stop a kid from thowing so many CB, not encourge it.

So you positive these hard throwers hurt themselves with CBs and not FBs.

quote:

Originally posted by fillsfan:
I think the parents like seeing their sons pitch "like the pros" and got a kick out of their 11 yo son making other 11 yo look bad. I believe it is a parents responsilbity to stop a kid from thowing so many CB, not encourge it.

I recently returned from STL with son who required arthroscopic surgery. After two MRI, nothing serious was determined other than some slight fraying that may be causing discomfort, but it was also suggested that the doctor take a closer look at what was going on.
After surgery the doctor came out to tell me how things went and asked a few questions. He told me that personally he was surprised to see such a healthy 22 year old arm, pitching since 8. Our philosophy, I told him, was to concentrate on mechanics, let velocity develop natually, limit playing time, innings, rest, develop two FB's and various change ups AND no CB's until a certain age and then allowed to throw more as he matured. Slider began to develop as a senior in HS.

Not to get into specifics of the rest of the conversation, it's amazing the info given to me regarding younger and younger players needing surgery (shoulder and elbow) or major time off to rehab in lieu of any surgerical procedure. There is no direct correlation between young players throwing CB's requiring TJ vs.shoulder surgery. An injury is an injury. There are conclussions that young harder throwing pitchers are more successful and used more often, and in addition, adding CB, sliders for more success at earlier ages than necessary.

So I beleive the above statement, after discussion with an ortho who has a very successful practice that treats sports injuries for all ages, to most likely be the biggest culprit in a phenomenon taking place in youth baseball today.

My best advice to do as a parent, what you feel is appropriate for your child's age limit, feel comfortable with your decision and don't let anyone else tell you what is right or wrong, because, obviously every pitcher is different and so are their parents.

The object I am assuming is that many of your players wish someday to reach the highest level of the game. That is almost virtually impossible to achieve if one does not remain consistantly healthy. You can read all the scientific information gathered and follow recommendations to the tee and still find that things happen. Most pitchers experience some bumps in the road, some bumps are bigger than others. Setting limits when they are under your care is a big factor, once they head off to college you have no control over what you can control when they are there. Your player is now in someone elses care and not all coaches CARE about their future. The healthy pitcher in college, will most likely be used often, especially if many of their teammates come with injuries before they have thrown their first pitch. Better to save those pitches for then.

The best prevention, I am to conclude, is common sense.

Most of the pitchers I know who have injuries got injured in MiLB or college. I am not sure why but a lot may have to do with the desire to win at all cost.
I think the best thing that could have happened for my son last year was that they video streamed his games in college and I was able to see what was happening to him. His mechanics were so bad I couldn't watch.
He has been home for a couple weeks and we have made great improvement to his mechanics. He was dropping his elbows and whipping his arm through. That for the 1st time was causing shoulder impingement. Aftyer working on his mechanics he feels great and is able to keep his ball down and breaking out of the strike zone like he used to do. He has been trying to get his velocity up and now understands that he has to maintain good mechanics. I showed him one of his teammated from HS who played 4 years at UALR and was injured 2 of those years. I said he was throwing just like him and could also look forward to shoulder problems just like him. Its your choice.
He now understands why he is injury free at 22.
I don't want to start another discussion on pitching mechanics but the elbows should be at shoulder height and rotate with a posh pull rotation with the upper body. He said his shoulder felt great throwing like that.

ASMI did research and did not find a connection between youth pitchers throwing curves properly and arms injuries. The correlation they did find was youth pitchers pitching competively to excess and arm injuries.

Read all of their findings. They recommend not throwing c/b until 14(puberty) many times on their site and in their presentation.

The study they did was very small. It showed that more stress was on the arm when you had a hard thrower. Over 80 mph. Read all of what they publish and say. Then make your own decision. It is NOT black and white that c/b are better for your arm.
Why risk it? Do you need to lead the league in strike outs at age 10? Excuse me, does your kid need to? Studies change over time but c/b's hurt MY elbow when I throw batting practice and that is all I need to know.

Read all of the information available then make your own decision. Then ask yourself this question, Is it worth the risk of tearing up your son's arm to get a few extra strikeouts based on an incomplete, small study? Cut down your kids pitching duties if you do nothing else. That is a given.

[QUOTE]Originally posted by BobbleheadDoll:
Most of the pitchers I know who have injuries got injured in MiLB or college. I am not sure why but a lot may have to do with the desire to win at all cost.

bhd
i say this without any disrespect intended. arm injury's don't just happen from a single pitch/throw. the tissue's/muscles break down over time until that injury happens. usually college or milb,or senior in HS.
that is why it's so important to keep a handle on the younger kids.

tpm

very sorry to here about your son.i hope everything works for him.
a big leaguer told my son in st . we'll all have arm problems,if we pitch long enough. maybe truer than we think.

BHD,
Of course I'm not 100% positive these boys needed surgery strictly from curveballs, but it seems more than a coincidence. I would bet that throwing cb with bad mechanics had something to do with it.
These two kids did not play 100 games a year. They played rec ball and all star Cal Ripken, no travel bb.. Maybe 20 competitive games a year so I don't think it was from over use. It might have been from throwing when they had tender arms which could have compounded a smaller problem into a major injury.

Bobblehd-Your experience with your son and his ability to throw a majority of curveballs without experiencing any pain or discomfort could be attributed to a number of things. He may be one of those that has such a strong muscle,bone,ligament structure that it allows him to throw curves with more frequency than the "average" pitcher and never develop arm problems.
He also-from what I've read from your posts-has very good mechanics and listens to his coach(Dad) when you notice him changing those "good" mechanics. It could also be that he is not throwing the curve with as much force as he has available and therefore not taxing his body to the fullest. Or the bottom line is that you may be correct in your belief that the curveball doesn't exert as much pressure on the elbow. We all have our own experiences to make our judgements by.

Could you please explain your post on July 22nd when you stated that when your "son got tired he stopped throwing his FB."
and "if he got tired he stuck to his off speed pitches." It does seem to contradict the last statement "My son would pull himself if he didn't feel 100%." Also, in a later post you state "His coaches never let him go out if he wasn't 100%" and
"I asked him why he came out and he said he wasn't feeling 100%".

Thanks

I don't know why you would need to baby 10U kids.

Teach them the same game. Curves, sliders and all.

Throw breaking pitches in moderation (6-10 per game). Hit all of them - why can't they learn to hit a slider?

Practicing 0-20 pitches a day and then throwing 100 pitches hard during a game might be a problem.