Summer ball

Bravescoach-

Take a lot of deep breaths....and tell your self it will make the kid(s) stronger in the long run to listen to the abuse.

It really is a shame that everyone cannot get on the same page, isn't it?

I personally know of a couple high school coaches who have/ will schedule some weekend tournaments just solely for the purpose of trying to keep their players away from their perspective travel teams . Pretty sad and petty if you ask me .

The reason hs coaches want their players to play for them is to have continuity in their program. If you have your players playing on 5 different teams, then how are they going to get better as a group? I personally have no problem with my guys playing on some showcase teams on the weekends, but they should be playing for me the rest of the week. My program promotes "team" not individuals. The major problem with travel programs is that for the most part it promotes individualism and selfish ballplayers worried about one thing....scholarship. I am not saying this is every travel program, but it's a major problem with a lot of travel and AAU athletics. Teams that play together and work hard together in the offseason, generally do better when they play together in the spring. What's more important, going to state OR winning a "top tier" tournament in Kenosha?

I asked my son and he said winning a top tier tourney but not in Kenosha but rather Jacksonville Florida.

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The major problem with travel programs is that for the most part it promotes individualism and selfish ballplayers worried about one thing....scholarship.

Here we go again, it seems that way to many H.S. coaches like to label a travel ball player as selfish or not a team player, do they teach this in Coaching H.S. Baseball 101.

ChiSox6, I do not know you or your program, but what is wrong with a STUDENT/ATHLETE working hard to get a scholarship? And why do so many H.S. COACHES/TEACHERS have to put these kids in a situation as is mentioned in Bravescoach post. Seems to me that travel or legion coaches are willing to try to work with the H.S. coaches, but your coaching fraternity will have nothing to do with that...

JMO
Have a nice day

Okay, first off... CSG I never said that ALL travel players are selfish, but let's face it, there is a lot of selfish baseball being played out there. Second, I have no problem with a player working on getting a scholarship. I just want to be part of the process. How am I putting my players in a "situation" by making them play for me, if I am willing to help them get a scholarship, while also allowing them to go to showcases or play on weekedn tournament teams??

And why is it that nobody is answering my concern of promoting continuity and playing with the players they will play with in the spring? I think I know the answer....because I am right. Some HS coaches, like myself want to do both...promote continuity for the HS "team" program and help their own players out with things like scholarship.

Lastly, you got to be kidding me that winning a "top tier" tourney ANYWHERE is better than going downstate with your HS team. If that's the case, Ripcord then why do we bother with interscholastic sports in the high school? We might as well do without college sports too then, let's just have travel teams forever. Maybe MLB scouts can start looking at the U-25 and U-26 teams in the future for draft picks.

You know, to me, the TEAM vs. the individual thing is blown way out of proportion.

My comment to those high school coaches who say this extra curricular baseball activity is about the individual. Yes - it is, but answer this...are you there in Sept thru February working with my kid? Are you there paying the bill on the cage time & lessons? Are you there at 900 PM during the week/weekend when my kid is in the weight room or getting his arm/batting stroke ready for the season? Would you prefer that my kid NOT do this stuff and wait to get ready for the season with the TEAM? It is hogwash if you ask me.

I think the majority of coaches are happy the kids are working in the off season. There are always a few out there who are control freaks and IMHO it probably gets blown out of proportion. However, it does happen and if you are in that category, it can make your life miserable.

I must add however, how many colleges/scouts come to your high school summer games?

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Originally posted by ChiSox6:
I personally have no problem with my guys playing on some showcase teams on the weekends, but they should be playing for me the rest of the week.

I think we would all agree that high school coaches have absolutely no right nor authority to dictate as to where their kids play on the weekend...that's a given. With that said, my question to you, ChiSox06, is what about a player who is capable of playing at a much higher level during the week (i.e. legion or club ball)? Would you, yourself, still pressure that kid into playing for the school for continuity purposes, or encourage him to further his baseball which would be in his best interest?

Every coach is different so to paint them all with the same breath is unfair.

However, there are far too many who are thinking of a lot of things before they think about the kids. If your son is good enough, he should play the highest level possible with the greatest exposure. It isn't out of line for the HS coach to ask his players to come back for the summer playoffs.

Even then keep in mind that the HS School Summer League Playoffs (and season) are not sanctioned by anyone except The Illinois HS Coach's Association so why is that considered to be any more important then Travel Ball? I know of schools where summer ball is just another way to make money, charging kids whatever amount they would like to play.

Summer League could be and in some circumstances is a great way to build a program, but in some cases it's playing even more for a coach who really could give a rat's rear end about players.

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Originally posted by RegressionToTheMean:
Every coach is different so to paint them all with the same breath is unfair.

However, there are far too many who are thinking of a lot of things before they think about the kids. If your son is good enough, he should play the highest level possible with the greatest exposure. It isn't out of line for the HS coach to ask his players to come back for the summer playoffs.

Even then keep in mind that the HS School Summer League Playoffs (and season) are not sanctioned by anyone except The Illinois HS Coach's Association so why is that considered to be any more important then Travel Ball? I know of schools where summer ball is just another way to make money, charging kids whatever amount they would like to play.

Summer League could be and in some circumstances is a great way to build a program, but in some cases it's playing even more for a coach who really could give a rat's rear end about players.

Well said...I agree completely. I would also add that the summer league should be more about developing the "tweeners" who are in need of additional playing time and reps. At the same time, the more elite players should be encouraged to compete at the highest level possible...thus, a total win-win situation which would only enhance a high school program.

To answer your question Bravescoach...I think it's fine if the highest level is truly the highest level. Where I coach, our legion team is a joke. We also have a bunch of dads coaching summer teams in so called top tier teams. If I had a coach that I could trust in my area, I would say go ahead and play for him. I agree that the state summer league playoffs should be a time to bring the whole "team" back together. That would be the whole win-win scenario that you suggest. However, I think it was 2 years ago my ace was allowed to throw 154 pitches in a legion game to help advance them in the playoffs. This is not the quality coaching that I am looking for. This is all about the coach looking out for himself and not the youngster. This is one of many examples of why I want my guys playing for me during the week, and then if they want to be showcased, then they can do it on their own time on the weekend. I cannot speak for all HS coaches, but this is my theory.

As for the comment, about coaches making money off of summer league...if that's happening it's a shame. I only charge my guys the amount of money to pay for umps, bus, and league fee. Any leftover money goes back into the program to buy things for the field.

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Originally posted by ChiSox6:
To answer your question Bravescoach...I think it's fine if the highest level is truly the highest level. Where I coach, our legion team is a joke. We also have a bunch of dads coaching summer teams in so called top tier teams. If I had a coach that I could trust in my area, I would say go ahead and play for him. I agree that the state summer league playoffs should be a time to bring the whole "team" back together. That would be the whole win-win scenario that you suggest. However, I think it was 2 years ago my ace was allowed to throw 154 pitches in a legion game to help advance them in the playoffs. This is not the quality coaching that I am looking for. This is all about the coach looking out for himself and not the youngster. This is one of many examples of why I want my guys playing for me during the week, and then if they want to be showcased, then they can do it on their own time on the weekend. I cannot speak for all HS coaches, but this is my theory.

As for the comment, about coaches making money off of summer league...if that's happening it's a shame. I only charge my guys the amount of money to pay for umps, bus, and league fee. Any leftover money goes back into the program to buy things for the field.

Thanks for the feedback ChiSox6...you seem to be a responsible high school coach who genuinely cares about your kids and knows what's best for them individually and collectively...kudos to you. I just wish others would follow your lead. Have a good summer season.

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Originally posted by nc42dad:
but answer this...are you there in Sept thru February working with my kid? Are you there paying the bill on the cage time & lessons? Are you there at 900 PM during the week/weekend when my kid is in the weight room or getting his arm/batting stroke ready for the season? Would you prefer that my kid NOT do this stuff and wait to get ready for the season with the TEAM? It is hogwash if you ask me.


I must add however, how many colleges/scouts come to your high school summer games?

NCDad, Of course you're correct. If a pitcher is trying to both play summer league and travel, and is told that the pitching coach from U of I will be at their Friday night travel game and there's a conflict with a summer league game, it should be obvious what the choice should be. At least to me.

Chisox

Still don't understand the "individualism and selfish ballplayers worried about only one thing, scholarship" comment. Why wouldn't a young man with the ability not want to play and improve at the highest level possible? Summer League baseball is mediocre, at best, for the most part. The competition at the travel level was significantly better, and certainly helped to improve baseball skills.

The experience that our family had with travel baseball was positive in just about every aspect, and worked in tandem with the High School season. Coaches on both side of the fence were co operative in working things out as much as possible, which was very important, especially with a pitcher involved. Most of the players were working towards their goal of playing at the next level, but that doesn't make them selfish by any means, just motivated and hard working in my estimation. The reality is that summer travel teams and players get exposure at the summer tournaments. I don't recall ever seeing a college coach at a summer High School game. The summer travel tournaments and showcases are where the colleges go to see potential players.
The tournaments also offer the best competition against the best players, and why wouldn't motivated ball players, who love the game, not want to play against the best.

I have been a varsity HS coach for the past 22 yrs. I set up my schedule monday through thursday and keep a fairly big roster. We play double headers/8 games in 4 days. I have told my players that if they want to play travel ball on the weekend they are free to do so as long as they have the energy to do both. I also tell them that if they have a big tournament out of town they can miss a thursday. Keep in mind we lose kids to basketball and football camps, vacations, and several other reasons in the summer. The relationship between the 2 groups has been souring because of mainly 2 reasons. Some travel programs have decided to play on weeknights and want those kids exclusively for those games as well as weekends. Some high school coaches are now playing in weekend tournaments as mentioned before to compete with the weekend travel tournaments. The relationship was fine before... everyone knew there place but when 1 group gets greedy it all falls apart. There is a place for travel ball and HS ball. Its called cooperation! If 1 of my kids is considered good enough to play on an elite travel team (and thus far that has not happened) the first thing I will do is sit down with the travel coach and figure out a way to make it work. We all owe are kids that much.

Keep in mind that ChiSox6 probably isn't talking about travel teams that have year-round activities (WSA, Top Tier ...) and give their kids the resources that they need in the offseason and professional coaches (strength, position, or otherwise).

When the HS team is a better option (competition-level wise) then why shouldn't coaches expect players to commit to the program? How many college coaches show up to see "Central LL" all-stars play against "Northside American LL" all stars?

It might also explain why kids would rather play in the PG spring league than for their HS team ... with that attitude, how long until baseball goes the way of swimming and gymnastics?

Here are some of my thoughts on this whole H.S. vs. travel issue and i believe im qualified enough to comment thru my experiences so far. As far as my son is concerned , hes playing travel ball-17u -with the sparks to play against the best competition out there ..not necessarily to be " showcased " , and also to receive quality coaching along with it. We all know some of these tournaments require us to leave as early as thursday thereby having to miss any high school summer games on those days. The high school coaches need to let these kids go to their tournaments without making them feel guilty about it or possibly holding it against them come next spring. The high school coach should be thrilled that he has a player/players that is capable of competing at this high level . Why make the player stay to play in meaningless hs summer game ? Most coaches use the summer to find out what the sophs and maybe froshs can do on the field. He should already know what his travel guys can do . From what ive seen the last few years the level of pitching doesnt even come close to comparison between hs summer and travel . How is a hitter going to get better by sticking around to face mediocre pitching ? I would much rather see my son go 1 for 4 against top notch pitching than go 4 for 5 against mediocre . Same goes for the pitchers-- quality pitchers need to go out and face a whole lineup of good hitters ..not just 3 or 4 hiters. The hs summer season should be about DEVELOPING players ..not necessarily winning . Speaking from personal experience , my son has continued to improve by going out every summer on the travel circuit to face the best pitching there is to offer.. that is a fact. This can only help him come spring season when he has to face the likes of a Bryan Roberts or a Jon Weaver ..he will be prepared because he has faced similar all summer . Why cant the hs coaches realize this ? The hs coach has to let his players find out how far their talent will take them ..especially between junior and senior year when it is absolutely critical . Why on earth would you want to hold a player back from finding out what he can accomplish ?? Some of these hs coaches cut more slack to the baseball player who is also a football guy than to the baseball player who is a travel guy playing the same sport ..what does that tell you ?? Baseball is a team sport , but it is also about how good you are/ might be / or might become as an individual..and this will determine where you will end up at the next level . This doesnt make a player selfish . It should be about the high school student / athlete ...not the coach and their inflated egos .

This is a good topic and I would like to add in my 2 cents.

I find it funny that terms like "HS coaches inflated egos" “over-inflated egos” keep coming up when dealing with this topic. I think some players and dads need to look in the mirror on this one.

I dont really think the issue here is the players that can play for your top notch travel teams and have the inner drive to get better. Its the ones that need a summer of hard work and not weeks on the travel/hotel circuit. The problem I have with the travel commitment is that it doesnt allow for proper nutrition and training.

Here is what I mean: Player A plays for Team A who plays 7 out of the 1st 9 weeks of the summer in Tournaments Fri-Sun (sometimes Thur playing, but most likely all day traveling). Tournaments consist of hotel stays, fast food, traveling, mass games and sitting around. So that leaves them with Mon-Wed for things like mass BP, mass GB/FB, lifting, long toss, agility training, running (things to build their skills).....and not to mention their HS coaches and teammates would like their top effort when they are playing in HS games to show the young impressionable talent how its done in their program. It might not mean a lot to some people but it does to others.

Is summer the time for developing your skill set and body or the time to face the “best competition”?

There are kids that are hard workers that will train anywhere, but I see a lot of players get sloppy and lazy on the travel circuit and come back in the fall as worse players then when they left. We let players play on the top notch travel teams but request their attendance M-W and how ever long were alive in the playoffs. After that your free to play as much as you would like but we suggest that you take a vacation away from baseball and training to re-energize for fall ball.

Also, as for the are you there for my son Sept-Feb…. We would be if the IHSA would let us. I would love to work with my team all year, there are rules. All of those things you mentioned after that (cage times, lessons, training) are all responsibilities of the parent and player, not a coach. We are not only happy you are doing it, we EXPECT you to do it.

Its an interesting topic and I can see why both sides get fired up, that **** ego thing again……

Keep working hard,
Justin Stringer
Do It Right Baseball
Lane Tech Baseball
www.doitrightbaseball.com
HSBASEBALLWEB SPONSOR

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but answer this...are you there in Sept thru February working with my kid? Are you there paying the bill on the cage time & lessons? Are you there at 900 PM during the week/weekend when my kid is in the weight room or getting his arm/batting stroke ready for the season?

YES

Bravescoach, have you ever coached at the high school level?

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i believe im qualified enough to comment thru my experiences so far.

Sulltiger have you ever coached high school baseball?

Im sure you know the answer to your question is NO . That being said , despite the tone of some of my comments i have the utmost respect for the HS coaches out there . I respect the time committment they put in and the values that are being taught to the student athlete . I dont understand how some of the hs coaches can expect to control the summer travel stuff when they have the player in the fall ( for those who have some sort of fall practice schedule ) , and then you have the winmter workout schedule , and then of course ..all spring. So now , summer comes around and the hs guy wants to control the player during that time also...what gives ? All the player wants to do is go out and play the sport that you ---the hs coach --has been teaching him at a higher level than what is available locally . Please someone tell me what is wrong with that ?

Mr. Springer , these players know how to take care of their bodies . they spend more than enough time training and so forth during the so called off season . For some , summer is the time to go out and just actually PLAY the sport that they spend so much of their time during the year ( months and months ) working on. Remember , baseball is suppossed to be FUN for the players . Im guessing that most of the travel guys will tell you they have a heck of a lot more fun during summer than the spring . I used the term " over inflated ego " with good reason ..not just to stir the pot . Like i said i know for a fact there are a few hs coaches out there that have scheduled weekend stuff just solely for the purpose of trying to keep the players away from their travel team , therby putting the player in an uncomfortable position . There is no need for anyone but the hs guy to look in the mirror on that one .

Playball

Are you the parent of a high school baseball player ?

Playball-

You are probably the only coach I have seen in the winter at a non-high school event. Granted, I don't know everyone but seeing high school coaches is no where near the norm.

LTTB47-

Yes I understand IHSA has its rules but my point is that it really takes more effort than just what high school can offer - that might involve many other things. 3 1/2 months total & almost two of them in miserable weather?

I hear parents complain that their h.s. coach doesn't do anything to get their kid scholarships. That is total blah, blah....I do not expect any coach - high school, travel, what ever... to get my kid a post high school "deal." But if I have to rely on only one option than we are in big trouble.

A tip of my hat to my friend Sully. Well said.

My son's high school coach has a plan to work him on weekdays around his travel schedule. They realize he needs the competition of travel, but have a weekday plan to fit him in with the summer high school schedule and not burn him out. As Sully said, the coaches know what he caqn do, they are developing others for the future during summer ball.

The travel coach, Rich Pildes, teaches baseball. It is a team game. There aren't "selfish" players. They play the right way or they sit. Maybe Coach Pildes gets it because he is a high school coach aqnd a travel coach. But the high school coach also sees the value of cooperation with the travel team to better his program.

Travel and HS summer ball can work to better the player and the hs team.

As far as working out, if the kid doesn't work during the mornings, that is when he should work out. He should always moniter his eating habits. You don't always have to eat junk food when you are "on the road".

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Originally posted by Playball2:
Bravescoach, have you ever coached at the high school level?

Sure have and presently do...have coached up through American Legion...what's your point?

Bravescoach you currently coach high school baseball?

I love how you guys see it as no problem to bash high school coaches and high school programs, but if it's reversed and something bad is said about a travel team all of the sudden the high school coach who is complaining is "selfish." Real nice.

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Are you the parent of a high school baseball player ?

everyone of them every year for the last 20 years

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Originally posted by Playball2:
Bravescoach you currently coach high school baseball?

That wasn't the question you originally posed. But, to answer your latest...no, I do not coach at a high school. Again, what's your point?

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Originally posted by Bulldog 19:
I love how you guys see it as no problem to bash high school coaches and high school programs, but if it's reversed and something bad is said about a travel team all of the sudden the high school coach who is complaining is "selfish." Real nice.

Bulldog...let's stay on point. This thread pertains to very specific conduct by certain high school coaches. As my note to ChiSox6 pointed out, there are high school coaches out there who should be commended for the way they treat their players. However, there are also far too many who certainly do not have their players' best interests at heart.

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Playball

Are you the parent of a high school baseball player ?

Is parenting the focus of this thread? I am a parent of 3 none of which is in high school.

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That wasn't the question you originally posed.

I didn't ask the age, I asked a level not sure what you thought I was referencing.

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there are high school coaches out there who should be commended for the way they treat their players.

As long as they release their players in the summer to you, then they are to be commended. If not, then they don't have the players interest at heart, they are ego maniacal, etc. I have a question for you bravescoach, what if a HS coach felt as though it was not in the athletes best interest to play for you? Would the HS coach still be all that you described him to be in an earlier blog, I mean after all he is placing the athletes interests first. Now, respectfully to you, I know nothing about you or your program, so my question posed is hypothetical, however I would think it naive for you or any coach to think that all players are happy all the time with their present situation, no matter how hard you work, sacrafice, extend yourself on their behalf. So when you keep asking me my point, it is simply this. I think it is extremely irresponsible to make the comments you said. I believe they are in ire of specific situations, I would assume related to you, and I think they do nothing to augment or mend the situation between the two entities.

Why would the HS coach need to keep the few travel players around for a hs summer game when the roster is more than large enough to field a team ? Seems to me like that would be a win win situation for everyone involved. The hs coach gets the chance to see what the other kids can do for a whole game ..not just some token at bats . These kids are now able to get meaningful playing time and can get a fair evaluation from the coach with an eye toward the spring.

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These kids are now able to get meaningful playing time and can get a fair evaluation from the coach with an eye toward the spring.

I don't get your comments, why would it be any less or more meaningful for these kids than the others? If the level of play is meaningless for the travel kids, how can it be meaningful for the "tweeners"? Based on the level competition (without travel players), how can I make an assumption on their abilities as it translates to success for the upcoming spring when the travel kids are in the line ups.

How can you make statements that for and against the same argument and consider it a "win, win".

[IMG]http://www.mchenrycountysports.com/articles/2008/06/08/spring_sports/baseball/doc484b9c596831f536547264.txt[/IMG

Im not going to comment any further on this stuff . Im confident the readers of this board understood the points i tried to make . You dont have to agree , but no need to inject sarcasm , twist around the statements i made , and have the holier than thou attitude . You also failed to address the central issue .

Sulltiger, what? there is not twist, this is what you said, own it. I am asking you a legit question? You got to do better than to shift the blame to my attitude?

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Originally posted by Playball2:

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there are high school coaches out there who should be commended for the way they treat their players.

As long as they release their players in the summer to you, then they are to be commended. If not, then they don't have the players interest at heart, they are ego maniacal, etc. I have a question for you bravescoach, what if a HS coach felt as though it was not in the athletes best interest to play for you? Would the HS coach still be all that you described him to be in an earlier blog, I mean after all he is placing the athletes interests first. Now, respectfully to you, I know nothing about you or your program, so my question posed is hypothetical, however I would think it naive for you or any coach to think that all players are happy all the time with their present situation, no matter how hard you work, sacrafice, extend yourself on their behalf. So when you keep asking me my point, it is simply this. I think it is extremely irresponsible to make the comments you said. I believe they are in ire of specific situations, I would assume related to you, and I think they do nothing to augment or mend the situation between the two entities.

Fair enough, Playball, allow me to explain...I coach the Highwood Braves 15s which is an independent, club travel team. I have players from 7 different high schools and I purposely kept our schedule to weekend play only (except for two national tournaments) so as not to conflict with their high school summer ball. Our schedule includes the Seminole Slugfest, 18U Trojan Invitational, 16U Northwestern Invitational, Omaha Slumpbuster, and the CABA World Series - to name a few.
I'm not about wins and losses, tournament championships, nor state/national rankings. My sole purpose is to expose my players to the very best competition possible while assisting them through the whole collegiate recruitting process. Does that make me the greatest coach around? Certainly not, but my players know that I'm about them and not about myself.
Now...for a few specific examples which prompted this thread: I have at least two players whose high school coach has advised them against competing with us in Omaha as they'd be missing a few summer league games. I have another player who recently missed our Saturday morning tournament game against the Fox Valley Royals 17U team as he was advised to attend a summer league PRACTICE. My own son recently made the Northbrook American Legion team and earned a starting position as a freshman. Yet, he's receiving nothing but resistence from his varsity coach who claims that he's making a big mistake. I could go on and on.
As I've already mentioned, Playball, there are certainly instances where high school summer ball is the best alternative assuming that the coach honestly has the kid's best interest in mind (i.e. ChiSox6). However, I'm curious as to your thoughts on the examples I've cited.