Summer Ball, Yes Or No?

Interesting.  He’s making good points.

Turning down the Cape though?  Does he have advisors telling him that he’ll likely get drafted anyways without playing in the Cape?

Not all Summer Leagues are equal, that is for sure.  A league with terrible or inconsistent fields and terrible or inconsistent umps can be a waste of time to a large degree, despite the value of game reps.

JucoDad's son is playing currently for the Cleveland Guardians.  So obviously his choice not to go to the Cape worked for him!

@3and2Fastball posted:

Not all Summer Leagues are equal, that is for sure.  A league with terrible or inconsistent fields and terrible or inconsistent umps can be a waste of time to a large degree, despite the value of game reps.

Especially for pitchers. Having this issue this year. League didn't start until mid June. None of the fields have lights, and are all grass fields. So when there are rain outs and they are made up they are two 7 inning games. So 4 fewer innings you need pitchers for. Now games are starting to be called in fewer than 9 innings because of darkness.

@3and2Fastball posted:

Interesting.  He’s making good points.

Turning down the Cape though?  Does he have advisors telling him that he’ll likely get drafted anyways without playing in the Cape?

Not all Summer Leagues are equal, that is for sure.  A league with terrible or inconsistent fields and terrible or inconsistent umps can be a waste of time to a large degree, despite the value of game reps.

The cape offer was long ago, and there were no advisors until his velo ticked up in his second year of juco. He's always been very focused on educating himself and focusing on what works best for him. I've said this many times here, I'm very glad he owns all his choices (they wouldn't all have been my choices) - I've enjoyed helping enable his journey.

@JucoDad posted:

The cape offer was long ago, and there were no advisors until his velo ticked up in his second year of juco. He's always been very focused on educating himself and focusing on what works best for him. I've said this many times here, I'm very glad he owns all his choices (they wouldn't all have been my choices) - I've enjoyed helping enable his journey.

That’s awesome, I can appreciate that.

I can share my son's thoughts on why he didn't play summer baseball.  His coaches were fine with it, and they knew when he was recruited where his priorities were.  Nobody was surprised.

1) Money.   He selected a private school.   The bank of Mom & Dad agreed to assist with 50% finances.  He was responsible for the difference plus living expenses.   He needed the money which leads us to 2) below.

2) Internship.  He had a summer engineering internship ($$) that eventually led to an engineering job offer as a rising senior.  The internships were invaluable to what he wanted to do professionally.

3) Innings.  He felt he pitched enough innings during the regular season, and more innings on the mound were just going to wear him down.

My son loved college baseball, but he had no aspirations of playing baseball beyond college.   We looked at college summer baseball as an internship but it just wasn't providing the experiences that he wanted to continue his engineering path.  If anybody wants to be a professional baseball player, then playing summer college baseball is almost a got to have if healthy.

JMO.

My son is playing a local league while working 6 days a week that includes a job and a paid internship. The league has a Saturday game (me made them) and weekday morning games (used to be at night last year) that is causing him to miss games. He barely trains outside of lifts and conditions where he does find the time. He wants to do another internship next year so he will train instead of playing a league.

fenway and 2022:

It is good that your son's can plan their future career with baseball. Summer baseball is achieving the "edge" for the next 12 months.

Question: what can I do to improve? What did I learn in today's game? How did I adjust?

Later, I applied many of the baseball lessons to the business World. Summer baseball was my classroom.

Bob

Hi Bob,

Thanks for the post. Luckily for my son they have a pretty competitive fall that will sharpen his "competitive" skills that he will certainly lose over the summer.

Summer ball is on its last legs and will be dead soon.  Even the Cape is a shell of what it once was.  Summer ball is for guys who didn't get any reps, are coming off injury or guys who just love the game and want to play as much as possible before the clock runs out.  The top pro prospects and starters from the top teams are not playing, or they are playing a very abbreviated schedule. The good pitchers are staying home and If you aren't facing quality pitching, what is the point?  Turn on a Northwoods game and watch how many sub 90 arms are throwing.  Odds are you will see a few sub 85 arms as well.  As word spreads on how bad the leagues were this year, I am not sure how many of these leagues will survive.         

D-Mac

please define the phase “quality” pitching? Velocity? What is the cost of a team in the Northwoods League?

Bob

@d-mac posted:

Summer ball is on its last legs and will be dead soon.  Even the Cape is a shell of what it once was.  Summer ball is for guys who didn't get any reps, are coming off injury or guys who just love the game and want to play as much as possible before the clock runs out.  The top pro prospects and starters from the top teams are not playing, or they are playing a very abbreviated schedule. The good pitchers are staying home and If you aren't facing quality pitching, what is the point?  Turn on a Northwoods game and watch how many sub 90 arms are throwing.  Odds are you will see a few sub 85 arms as well.  As word spreads on how bad the leagues were this year, I am not sure how many of these leagues will survive.         

I have no idea if they'll disappear, but definitely saw lots of posts about the Cape and coaches (see if you can find the interview with the Chatham Anglers coach on twitter) talking about kids coming up for just a few games here and there just to showcase. Beyond the normal temp contract situations. My son's college teammate (grad student) trained after the season was over and then in beginning of July made about 3 appearances in the Cape and went into the transfer portal at the deadline.

I can't see leagues like the Hampton's league surviving. $800 to play ~30 games. Other son was out west and his entire coaching staff quit while they were in Canada leaving an intern to manage.

Not great experiences in either the WCL or Hamptons league. Don't want to air out anything else specifically, but if someone has questions feel free to DM.

I think MLB moving the draft from early June to second week of July didn't do the summer leagues any favors. As mentioned above, a bunch of the higher profile players are opting not to play in anticipation of being drafted. Back when it was early June, if the player didn't get drafted or wasn't happy with the round they went in, they could then go play in the Cape, Northwoods, Coastal Plain, etc.

@d-mac posted:

Summer ball is on its last legs and will be dead soon.  Even the Cape is a shell of what it once was.  Summer ball is for guys who didn't get any reps, are coming off injury or guys who just love the game and want to play as much as possible before the clock runs out.  The top pro prospects and starters from the top teams are not playing, or they are playing a very abbreviated schedule. The good pitchers are staying home and If you aren't facing quality pitching, what is the point?  Turn on a Northwoods game and watch how many sub 90 arms are throwing.  Odds are you will see a few sub 85 arms as well.  As word spreads on how bad the leagues were this year, I am not sure how many of these leagues will survive.         

Summer leagues aren't going anywhere. The whole point of summer league is to provide reps for players. Reps mean many things for many players. Some players didn't get any innings on their college team during the season; they need to play so they'll be more ready to compete the following fall. Some players need to work their way back from injury; they need reps to get make sure they're healed and can play. Some players want to prove they can compete against players in a different NCAA tier so they can transfer; they need reps to prove they can. Some players want to be seen in front of professional scouts; they need reps in a league where professional scouts are present. And those are just some of the reasons that there will always be plenty of players willing to play.

On the flip side there are many teams and communities who don't have easy access to what they consider quality baseball. Or perhaps they just enjoy baseball and want to spend their summer evening watching the sport they love. They are even willing to pay money to watch!

As long as there are players willing to play, communities who want to watch and local businesses who want to turn a small profit or want to provide an outlet for their community, summer ball will continue to exist.

As far as those players who throw sub-85? Guess what?, They play college baseball somewhere at some level.

Heck, we may as well get rid of minor league baseball since the vast majority of those players will never make it to the Show!

ABSORBER

You are correct.

Maybe teams will be formed with the players from the PORTAL.

Each player would have his "metrics" and GPA in the program.

Bob

Northwoods League will still be around as long as the fans/people keep buying tickets.  I could definitely see the quality of that league continuing to go down over the next few summers though.

3&2

define quality. Portal to portal teams. Bid on the players.
$$$ to the D3 teams in the Midwest.

Bob

Things have changed dramatically since 2020, the transfer portal, less rounds in the draft, later draft date, very prominent and successful training facilities pushing development over training during the summer. The whole concept of summer ball needs to evolve. Maybe start later, give players a break before starting? Maybe it's good for the communities and businesses to have a 70+ game season in the Northwoods league, but do the players need it?

@Consultant I think a portal league would be awesome.

Also, my son left his training facility as it became over crowded and made it impossible to get good reps or live at bats. It may be just an issue in my area. 

I'm a big fan of summer leagues.  I find myself agreeing with everyone.

I agree with Consultant that they provide irreplaceable experiences, and not just about baseball, for very little cost.  The last two summers my son has paid nothing - I view it as an unpaid internship.  Playing pro ball is not the only job in baseball, after all.  I also agree that training in a gym is not the same as playing games.

I agree with Absorber that many of these teams provide live outdoor entertainment centered on a baseball game for a community, and that is very valuable.  My son has played on teams where people love to come to the games, and that provide good entertainment (and good beer).  This summer I randomly heard a mom say to her young son "there are 4 baseball games while we are here, we can go to one" - that's just fantastic.  I wish we had such a team in our area.

I agree with nycdad that paying $800 for the experience is not something I would do.  The leagues that make money by providing local entertainment is one thing, but glorified travel tournaments doesn't make sense to me.

I also agree that there is a variety of players who benefit from playing in summer leagues, such as those Absorber mentions.  The transfer portal has resulted in players leaving their summer teams as soon as they get a new college team, as Hokieone noted last year, but on the other hand, perhaps it has provided an inducement for players hoping to transfer to play.

Finally, I agree with d-mac that the level of players is not what I expected, for the past 3 summers.  Some of the baseball has been surprisingly good, some of it has been surprisingly bad.  I agree that top-level pitchers are not coming; top teams' starters are pitched out (and I agree they should not play in the summer), but the relievers and bench players don't seem to be coming either.

Everything trickles down.  Team USA had some guys decline invitations.  The fall off in the Cape has been drastic and it happened fast.   Guys  who would have never been invited in years past are not just playing, they are doing well.  The pitchers didn't show up.  The SEC arms stayed home for the most part. 

I think at the top schools, the solution is going to be creating your own version of driveline, tread, etc.  Players will stay home in the Summer and train.  The pitchers that need reps will throw live AB's to the hitters and it is a win/win for everyone.  If you are trying to play at one of the top 25 schools, it does you no good to face pitching during the Summer that is two levels below what you see in conference.

While I said Summer ball will be dead soon, that was too dramatic.  There will always be a need, but there needs to be some contraction.  It is still important for guys in the portal, guys coming off injury or guys who need reps.  Plus, Northwoods is a fun league.  Not everyone is training for the MLB or trying to be an SEC starter.  Some just love the game and a league like Northwoods will always appeal to those players.       

@d-mac posted:

Everything trickles down.  Team USA had some guys decline invitations.  The fall off in the Cape has been drastic and it happened fast.   Guys  who would have never been invited in years past are not just playing, they are doing well.  The pitchers didn't show up.  The SEC arms stayed home for the most part.

I think at the top schools, the solution is going to be creating your own version of driveline, tread, etc.  Players will stay home in the Summer and train.  The pitchers that need reps will throw live AB's to the hitters and it is a win/win for everyone.  If you are trying to play at one of the top 25 schools, it does you no good to face pitching during the Summer that is two levels below what you see in conference.

While I said Summer ball will be dead soon, that was too dramatic.  There will always be a need, but there needs to be some contraction.  It is still important for guys in the portal, guys coming off injury or guys who need reps.  Plus, Northwoods is a fun league.  Not everyone is training for the MLB or trying to be an SEC starter.  Some just love the game and a league like Northwoods will always appeal to those players.       

This is an interesting point, with the major emphasis on velocity for pitchers, and also with the use of trackman on pitch design, I do think many pitchers who would go to summer leagues are opting for programs that offer both those two elements plus injury prevention weight training.  I also think that with so many more DII and DIII guys reaching low to mid 90's, that there are spots being open up for them in leagues like the Cape.  Still only 1 or 2 per team on the cape, but far more in some of the next tier down leagues.

Position players still  need live game, but many of the programs you mention like Driveline are luring even pro players to their hitting programs.  It makes sense that it entices colleges hitters to do the same.  Plus with the extra years for them, it might be delaying their trips to summer ball.  I know programs like Cressey Sport Performance in MA place some of the pitchers they work with during their Elite Summer collegiate training program into the cape league at the very end of the season.

College summer leagues will not go away as long as there are redshirts.  There might be a reduction in leagues which probably should happen.  Too many of them.  There are too many kids who need to play that were redshirted or limited during the spring.  I have 3 players staying with me and one was redshirted and got no innings, the other two got limited innings.  There is also a fourth that was supposed to stay with us that got 3 innings all spring.  The problem is many coaches are using it to recruit (illegally) players from other teams since they are not in the portal.  The portal players are using like a HS kid would summer ball as a chance to be seen.

I think going back a few years I was all in favor of pitchers just developing over the summer at a facility like a DL, EC or Tread. Now I realize it's pitcher dependent.

As an example my freshman son pitched a little over 24IP, had 26K and a .230BAA with less than a hit per inning. BUT, he also had 26BB. He had the stuff/velo to get kids out, but really needs to work things out the mound. Indoor live ABS just aren't the same. Of course gaining velo is always great, but right now he needs to feel some pressure on the mound. He is trying to balance summer ball while also training remotely with Tread.

I know another kid. I don't know the exact number but walked maybe 5 batters in 30 innings. Started the year well, but once teams got a scouting report on him I think he finished with more than 2 hits and inning, and about a .400BAA, with balls breaking windshields in the parking lot. He was topping at 85 and couldn't land an off speed pitch for a strike so batters just sat FB. This kid would likely benefit from training all summer and increasing velo and stuff.

Nothing ventured - Nothing gained.

I didn’t expect to jump into this topic.  Matson at Harvard was one of my son’s mentors his sr year in hs (when my kid was a 14 yr old freshman on varsity). You never know where your growth mindset can take you.

Mad,

you are definitely tuned in to the value of the strong Summer Leagues. Maybe you can interview Sean when he returns home.

Bob