@Dadof3 posted:I would be interested to see that difference PA. Just for the sake of understanding.
Head to a D3 game and then head to a D1 game. It has less to do with how it looks and more to do with the speed.
Even at our mid major which is pretty strong, the infield play is significantly inferior to the infield play at P5s. I have one at a mid major and another at a P5. Our guys hit, but defensively they probably run circles around us. Their backups are superior defenders to our starters.
Good example here of the differences in summer leagues and how serious/competitive they can or cannot be. Got these txts from each of my kids about 24 hours apart.
@3and2Fastball posted:There’s a few kids I used to coach who ended up at a D3 (and are doing very well in D3 too) who absolutely still insist that they are “D1 guys” even though they never got a D1 offer despite spending thousands on PBR and PG events. It’s a common phenomenon these days of players and parents not seeing things the way that Baseball coaches and longtime Baseball people/insiders do.
I think it saves me a big degree of angst or whatever it is, simply embracing reality, but that’s just me…my kid laced a Double against a D1 pitcher throwing 92 last week, that doesn’t make him a D1 guy or “just as talented as a D1 guy”.
You are right. In Legion and college summer ball I owned a pitcher who spent six years in the majors. I hit over .400 against him. It didn’t make me a major league hitter. It made me a hitter who had figured out an excellent pitcher.
Rjm
was his name Bob Gibson?
Bob W.
Son is in a mostly D1 league. Some of the P5 players are very good, but some are not doing well, and some of the mid-major players are doing much better. For hitting, I could see adjusting to the wood bats, but the fielding and pitching are not more impressive either by those P5 players than the others.
P5 schools have much more depth of talent. That being said most Mid Majors have players who would do very well at a P5. There are plenty of Mid Major guys playing professional baseball who bypassed their P5 peers somewhere after committing to their colleges and getting drafted. P5 baseball across the board is stronger but that doesn't mean the entire roster is at the top level. Many P5 guys transfer or walk away after a year or two in the program when reality sets in "I'm never going to play."
Wood bats break many good college hitters.
@BaseballFan1965 posted:P5 schools have much more depth of talent. That being said most Mid Majors have players who would do very well at a P5. There are plenty of Mid Major guys playing professional baseball who bypassed their P5 peers somewhere after committing to their colleges and getting drafted. P5 baseball across the board is stronger but that doesn't mean the entire roster is at the top level. Many P5 guys transfer or walk away after a year or two in the program when reality sets in "I'm never going to play."
Wood bats break many good college hitters.
And also remember, just because a school is in a P5 Conference, doesn't mean it's worthy of the title. There are many schools in those conferences that fit the Mid-Major title better. Many of those P5 conferences are called P5 because of another sport. Honestly I wish people would consider the term Powerhouse schools and take it at that level versus conference level.
@HSDad22 posted:And also remember, just because a school is in a P5 Conference, doesn't mean it's worthy of the title. There are many schools in those conferences that fit the Mid-Major title better. Many of those P5 conferences are called P5 because of another sport. Honestly I wish people would consider the term Powerhouse schools and take it at that level versus conference level.
It depends. There are P5 schools that have caught a lot of flak on this board for their lackluster performances, but if you take them out of their P5 conference and put them in the Horizon League, NEC, WCC, Mountain West, Patriot, etc they walk thru them and we're having a conversation about what a strong mid major they are. It's all relative.
The truth is there are 7 conferences with 50% or more of the teams being pretty solid. Those are what I would consider "tough" conferences.
@anotherparent posted:Son is in a mostly D1 league. Some of the P5 players are very good, but some are not doing well, and some of the mid-major players are doing much better. For hitting, I could see adjusting to the wood bats, but the fielding and pitching are not more impressive either by those P5 players than the others.
When my son was fourteen I was driving by a P5 and noticed they were sponsoring a showcase. I knew they did them on three consecutive weekends in September. I stopped to watch. There were 36 position players. I saw little difference in the defensive drills. Only 4 of the 36 had D1 swings.
@HSDad22 posted:And also remember, just because a school is in a P5 Conference, doesn't mean it's worthy of the title. There are many schools in those conferences that fit the Mid-Major title better. Many of those P5 conferences are called P5 because of another sport. Honestly I wish people would consider the term Powerhouse schools and take it at that level versus conference level.
Top 50 program would be a better description than P5.
All true - but I think at this point I know which teams are which, and I stand by what I said! They are almost all D1, but not all P5.
Another Parent;
Hopefully the players are "learning" the game. How are the Coaches?
The "white ball" has no regard for the player's Division. Question: can he play?
Bob
Summer league is almost over. 30 games done, 3 to go, and then the playoffs.
So far, son has played in 57% of the games. Would have been more but he missed 5 games when they sent him to a NACSB showcase 400 miles away. (7 hours drive each way.) He's also one of 3 catchers on the team and they try to somewhat rotate them and give them rest.
I definitely see how players have to sacrifice their summer to participate in these leagues. While I sense the team feels like they have a legitimate chance to win the championship - and they do - I also sense that some of the players will be relieved when the season is officially over.
My son is lucky because he's on a winning team. (They have won 20 of 30 so far.) Credit goes to the guy who put the team together and the players for playing well. But. There's at least half the league where the teams have struggled this season. Some of them lose 60+% of the time and get pounded by the good teams. That has to be a miserable summer. And, I have noticed their dugouts getting less crowded. I suspect their players are checking out.
Overall, I feel that it's been a good opportunity and experience for my son. Validating positive in some ways but also humbling and providing challenges and learning lessons in others. He also got to play with some very talented guys.
@Francis7 posted:I definitely see how players have to sacrifice their summer to participate in these leagues. While I sense the team feels like they have a legitimate chance to win the championship - and they do - I also sense that some of the players will be relieved when the season is officially over.
This is 100% true and that's for a local league if I'm correct. Now imagine living away from home in a town most people work for the opportunity to leave.
Francis:
Sorry for your son's sacrifice. Baseball is a "teaching" opportunity to learn the game and about yourself. Is he prepared for the College Fall practice?
Maybe he should consider the Northwoods League.
Di you know that the Madison team {Northwoods League] average attendance is 6,080 per game.
Bob
@PABaseball posted:This is 100% true and that's for a local league if I'm correct. Now imagine living away from home in a town most people work for the opportunity to leave.
I don't disagree. Personally, at 19, I don't think he would have been able to do that situation.
As I read this, I realize that what you are talking about is what my son experienced when he played with the Northwoods, and is very similar to what he is seeing now in high A ball. Players come in and out as they are moved up or down, cut or in the next couple of weeks, traded. He has faced some guys who lived up their hype, and struck out some top prospects in embarrassing ways. Some of the towns they visit have been high quality, some have offered the visiting squad porta potties and a trailer for their clubhouse.
I feel like almost every experience every player has is valuable. It teaches you what things look like when they're good, what they look like when they're bad, and hopefully some skills on how to cope with each and even better, how to make a bad situation better. Great lessons for a baseball career, and for life.
Outstanding evaluation.
Best wishes to your son. He has "earned"his success with the 3 P's [patience, persistence & pride].
Bob
One thing I noticed in my son's commuter summer league is pitchers leaving games - I mean physically leaving the premises - as soon as they are done with the game.
They had a doubleheader this weekend. Opposing team's starter in Game 1 only went 2 innings. In the 3rd inning, he was in the parking lot heading home.
I understand that it's the summer and a weekend. And, some of these kids have long drives home. But, part of me thinks it's a bad look. But, I'm old.
Francis, they are NP’s
Bob
@Francis7 posted:One thing I noticed in my son's commuter summer league is pitchers leaving games - I mean physically leaving the premises - as soon as they are done with the game.
They had a doubleheader this weekend. Opposing team's starter in Game 1 only went 2 innings. In the 3rd inning, he was in the parking lot heading home.
I understand that it's the summer and a weekend. And, some of these kids have long drives home. But, part of me thinks it's a bad look. But, I'm old.
My oldest came back from playing on the west coast and got some work in in the league your son is in (in the NY division, not NJ). He was able to do this. They told him when he could pitch, he showed up and pitched. He's older at this point and played for the team's owner in summer ball in HS so maybe it's different. I'm not sure he left mid game, but definitely didn't' stick around for an entire DH. That is the culture of that league (ACBL) though.
Does this league play in front of paying customers? or is it more like a travel team league, with no-one but maybe family watching?
@anotherparent posted:Does this league play in front of paying customers? or is it more like a travel team league, with no-one but maybe family watching?
The later.
Back when dinosaurs roamed the earth and I played college summer ball most starting pitchers only showed up for their starts. They stayed the entire game. But they didn’t hang around for second games of doubleheaders.
It appears to be fairly common with position players as well. I understand why it's a bad look but these guys really don't care if the team wins or not. Staying around to stand with the team doesn't mean much when the outcome of the game will not sway your mood one way or the other. All these kids would rather go 4-4 in a blowout loss than go 1-4 in a win.
@RJM posted:Back when dinosaurs roamed the earth and I played college summer ball most starting pitchers only showed up for their starts. They stayed the entire game. But they didn’t hang around for second games of doubleheaders.
To me, this would make sense, for the pitchers. Don't make a kid show if he's not throwing. Don't have him sit through the second game if he pitched in the first. But, at least stick around for the game you pitched in, since you were part of it. But, most don't. And, I guess I get it...especially if it's late and they have long drives or it's near rush hour and they want to avoid traffic.
My son played in Norhwoods during COVID, including the first year when they were pretty much the only ones playing. He showed up for his games only just cause they didn't want too many people hanging around the dugout and he lived two hours away, so they didn't have to provide housing. When he was there, he stayed for the full game and helped with field work after.
They took him on the road if he was scheduled to pitch. On nights he wasn't pitching they often had him in the radio booth chatting with the announcer. After about the third time he was in there, I said "they must think you're good at the broadcast stuff."
Nah, he said, they needed my game pants for another player.
I'm sure I've told that story before, but I feel like it pretty well summed up summer collegiate ball.
My kid has playoffs tomorrow. He is hoping for an early exit as does some of his team mates. There were so many weekday games this season the dugout was a revolving door of players (mainly pitchers and catchers) leaving between innings and games to go to work. He will likely not return and just train next year and do live ABs with some pitchers he knows.
My son is playing his first year in the Northwoods League after his first year at a Wisconsin juco (pitcher). His experience between juco travel and NWL has been very different. For juco, only pitchers that were available to pitch traveled. For his NWL team, you are on the bus whether you are pitching or not. So even unavailable pitchers travel with the team. That means a lot of days getting to the park at 12:30, riding a bus for 2 hours, warming up, sitting in the bullpen for a 2-3 hour game, and then taking a 2 hour bus ride home with no expectation of playing. Every day, rinse and repeat.
I have seen a lot of what others have seen. Most pitchers are 86-89 with some topping 90+. Mix of players. Lot of transfer portal guys who did not play and trying to get reps/seen, guys who were contributors using NWL to ramp up, and juco guys knowing this upcoming year is their last chance.
Shane,
did your son use his time to create a scouting book on the opposing hitters. He will see them again.
Bob
Not for personal use but the pitchers keep the scoring book but add notes based on what the hitters did for each pitch. That info is then shared. So a joint book I guess.
Shane;
my "book" will show the tendencies of the hitter, where he stands, how he adjusts, what he thinks, the "sound of the bat", angle of the bat. Does he "choke" the bat on fastball, curve.
Bob
@Consultant posted:Shane,
did your son use his time to create a scouting book on the opposing hitters. He will see them again.
Bob
If we're talking about the 40 year plan vs. the 4 year plan.. It seems that in this scenario pitchers should/could stay behind and work, workout, etc. Assuming most of the NW players are D1 or will be, Synergy has most of the data you need (I am being told that by my kids, I haven't seen it).
I know summer ball isn't going away, but I do think the meat grinder of leagues like the NorthWoods are contributing to less participation overall.
Quite honestly, I think the experience Shane is describing is exactly what my son is seeing at High A. He says his life is very weird now. Goes to bed around 2, gets up around noon or 1 and goes to the field and does his work. Game starts about 6. On nights when he doesn't pitch he spends a lot of time watching the hitters to see what they swing at, what they don't, and kind of plots out what he might do when it's his turn. Game ends around 10 p.m., he goes to find food, plays video games, generally winds down and gets to bed. Rinse and repeat the next day. Monday is the only day off and lately it's been a travel day.
He pitches five innings a week roughly. That doesn't mean he isn't working the other 43 or so innings his team plays.
If you don't like being a pitcher in the NWL, you should stop now.
Thanks for pointing this out, Iowamom. Of course pitchers need to watch hitters in games when they are not pitching, because they will face them at some point. That's why I don't understand not sending all the pitchers to all the games.
In pro and college ball, they almost always play series. There are strategies about who pitches in what order, and how they see lineups. It's obviously also more convenient for travel, and so they have to take the whole team.
In the Northwoods and some of the other summer leagues they play 3 or 4-game series, so all the pitchers obviously have to travel to the away series.
Some summer leagues schedule single games instead of series, which I find odd. In fact, it's been bugging me all summer, and now I know why. If the non-eligible pitchers don't go to games, then when they eventually face those batters, they will not have seen them if they weren't at the away game. It seems different from the way the rest of baseball operates.
One thing about leaving games early, the pros do it all the time in Spring training. I know it is a little different, but it's still kind of the same thing.
Just got back from visiting son in Northwoods league in MN..(my first time up there besides airport)
he was in WCL last year(he no like...) and so far (he went there for 2nd half of season 07/01) it has been a great experience.
I was pretty impressed with how the town comes out and everything was pretty organized and really dialed in .
all games televised with good announcers/camera angles etc...
I way more enjoyed these games vs his college games-where there was never huge attendance -mostly friends and family(now I am sure it would be different if he played in a well attended power 5)
It felt more real I guess - kind of like a fun single A game would be.
all the little kids come onto the field after the game and the kids sign autographs for 30 min.
pretty cute and pretty cool...
kind of like what baseball was meant to be?
competition is decent. just like others have said - it is a broad mix of kids. on his team its probably 2/3 D1. but on others its half or 1/3..
basically what I am saying is.. if your kid needs work and no Cape invite- the Northwood would be my choice.
Fishnsail, I love what you say. When summer ball began for us and my son played on teams that drew large audiences, I started to think about what the point of it all is: is it to improve your craft as a baseball player, or is it to entertain people doing something you are trained to do? Like a singer in summer stock. Obviously it's both, but the entertainment part sometimes gets lost.
My kid is skipping his 2nd round playoff game as he already took off several days of work to play the regular season. He coach was very gracious about it. Hopefully they win today and he can play the semifinals
@2022NYC posted:My kid is skipping his 2nd round playoff game as he already took off several days of work to play the regular season. He coach was very gracious about it. Hopefully they win today and he can play the semifinals
We had a semifinal today and there were definitely kids missing on both teams. It was a reschedule from Tuesday, to Wednesday. And they normally never play on Wednesday. So, I'm guessing maybe they had to work?
