Extension is caused by the unloading of the body and the top hand. After contact, the unloading of the top hand will make it appear the hands were making a circle, when in fact, they weren't. The analogy of "coming off of the Merry-go-round" is very good for what actually happens.
I agree with powertoallfields assessment on this kids swing as I usually do. I also see how the left wrist becomes uncocked right from the get go and he straightens out his front arm, therfore he can't maintain lead arm extension the proper way through the swing. He definitely doesn't finish the swing or swing through contact, there is some bat drag there too, most of these things are typical of a kid this age. He doesn't get separation either. His hands are activitated too soon, he needs to let the hands go for the ride and let the hips lead the way. My 2 cents.
Coach W
Coach W
quote:Power, only gurus do such things...
I'm ready to go to the mountain top, LOL! Can't afford a trip to Louisiana!
quote:Originally posted by BlueDog:
Power, the kid in the video is loading his weight back, then, shifting his weight forward....It's all going together, top half and bottom half...It's going back together, then forward together...This is dead hands hitting....quote:He doesn't get separation either. His hands are activitated too soon, he needs to let the hands go for the ride and let the hips lead the way. My 2 cents.
This is a good two cents worth....Patrick W. is correct, IMO....The way to correct this is to learn how to sequence better....His body is not synching because the bottom half doesn't get ahead of the top half....This is preventing a late load of the hands which is what he needs....
A little help with the sequencing.... How much further ahead should the lower half be then the top half. I have seen some kids take a step before pitcher even release the ball and it seems like they have no momentum. (assuming you are not recommending that) Is the problem that his hands are already set from the start of the swing and maybe if he had is hands unloaded he could step and as he steps brings hands back and then start swing after hands get loaded or does he just need to start his step earlier and keeps hands back???
quote:Originally posted by BlueDog:
DenJake, it's about finding a pattern in your son's body movement that will get him in synch...
Keep in mind, if you are gonna help him, you need to understand how weight shift should work......The weight begins a shift during the stride and continues shifting throughout the swing process....The hands must load during weight shift 'cause the weight never stops shifting...This is what gets and keeps the bottom half ahead of the top half....
This clip shows it...Just watch the hips over and over...
Blue,
That is a very good clip to show what you are talking about. If you look at his front shoulder to tricep, you will see his torso actually leave them behind. That will not happen unless your hands are still loading as you plant your front heel. If your hands are already back, they will start to come forward along with your torso (no cusp).
Great shot of Wrigt. Thanks. Incredible amount of torque. Lots of pelvic loading going on!
That video was great and I think I am understanding what you are talking about.
How can I post a bmp image...
I have a bmp from the first soft toss swing that shows his hands are back (loaded) and front foot about 2 inch from the ground. So at that point it appears his hands start to go forward. What we would be looking for is for that foot to plant while the hands are still loaded then release once the foot touches. (Also have a game shot)
How can I post a bmp image...
I have a bmp from the first soft toss swing that shows his hands are back (loaded) and front foot about 2 inch from the ground. So at that point it appears his hands start to go forward. What we would be looking for is for that foot to plant while the hands are still loaded then release once the foot touches. (Also have a game shot)
quote:Originally posted by powertoallfields:
Watch the direction of the hands as the knob points at the ball. As the upper body comes around with the hands behind the rear shoulder, the hands will go in a straight line as they take the sweetspot to the ball.
If you view this from above, the hands clearly do not move in a straight line.
Den,
To post an image here's what I do.
Go to
http://tinypic.com/?t=postupload
Click upload (top right area of page)
Then click browse.
Locate the picture that is on your computer.
Click that picture and the properties will move to the bar beside the browse button.
Go down and click the "upload now" button.
Once the picture is loaded it will appear on the screen.
Now, right click on the image and a box will pop up.
Highlight the address.
Then right click on the address and options will pop up. Click on "copy".
Then come to this site and when you go into "post reply" there is an icon that when you roll across it, it says "display image."
Click on that.
A box will come up.
Right click in that box.
Select "paste".
You now have pasted the address of your picture. Then just hit "post now".
The image should appear in the post.
Or,
You can send the image to me and I'll post it for you or help walk you thru it.
(took me a while to learn.
)
lclifton@sandersonford.com
To post an image here's what I do.
Go to
http://tinypic.com/?t=postupload
Click upload (top right area of page)
Then click browse.
Locate the picture that is on your computer.
Click that picture and the properties will move to the bar beside the browse button.
Go down and click the "upload now" button.
Once the picture is loaded it will appear on the screen.
Now, right click on the image and a box will pop up.
Highlight the address.
Then right click on the address and options will pop up. Click on "copy".
Then come to this site and when you go into "post reply" there is an icon that when you roll across it, it says "display image."
Click on that.
A box will come up.
Right click in that box.
Select "paste".
You now have pasted the address of your picture. Then just hit "post now".
The image should appear in the post.
Or,
You can send the image to me and I'll post it for you or help walk you thru it.
(took me a while to learn.
)lclifton@sandersonford.com
quote:Originally posted by BlueDog:quote:What we would be looking for is for that foot to plant while the hands are still loaded
DenJake, something for you to consider..
You want the front heel to plant while the hands are still loading.....You want the heel plant to interrupt the loading process...Think of whip in the hands and arms....
It's not about loading the hands and arms, then holding the load....It's about the overall body movement resulting in momentum not being stopped....Weight shift plays a big part in this....
The lower body doesn't necessarily move first....But, it does move forward first by leading the weight shift.......
Wright's sequence is weight shift, then the firing of the back hip....His hands are still loading when the back hip fires....
At least, that's the way I see it...
Ortiz...
Howard...
Again great description...
http://s5.tinypic.com/2nlwill.jpg
So in this picture you can see he is just about to bring his hands through but hasn't finished his stride. So that is where the lack of separation is.
http://tinypic.com/view.php?pic=91dyzr&s=5
quote:So in this picture you can see he is just about to bring his hands through but hasn't finished his stride. So that is where the lack of separation is.
Denjake,
One thing that would help right away would be for him to tip his bathead forward to about his head at the point he is in the game pic. This would give his lower body time to get ahead of his upper body. Everything else would need to be in the same place as in that pic to make it work, but it's worth a shot to see how many of his flaws it will fix.
quote:Originally posted by John YaYa:quote:Originally posted by powertoallfields:
Watch the direction of the hands as the knob points at the ball. As the upper body comes around with the hands behind the rear shoulder, the hands will go in a straight line as they take the sweetspot to the ball.
If you view this from above, the hands clearly do not move in a straight line.
The effort to get them there is. The body and like I said, the top hand end up moving them to the inside near contact, but the momentum is moving straight, not circular to the direction of the hit.
quote:Originally posted by powertoallfields:
The effort to get them there is. The body and like I said, the top hand end up moving them to the inside near contact, but the momentum is moving straight, not circular to the direction of the hit.
Sorry, but this is simply wrong.
I have never seen an overhead view of a major leaguer taking a linear hand path.
Hand path is circular
John Ya Ya,
Had to laugh at the screen name. That particular movie is a cult favorite of mine!
Had to laugh at the screen name. That particular movie is a cult favorite of mine!
quote:powertoallfields; Watch the direction of the hands as the knob points at the ball. As the upper body comes around with the hands behind the rear shoulder, the hands will go in a straight line as they take the sweetspot to the ball.
quote:Originally posted by LClifton:quote:powertoallfields; Watch the direction of the hands as the knob points at the ball. As the upper body comes around with the hands behind the rear shoulder, the hands will go in a straight line as they take the sweetspot to the ball.
Thanks, LClifton! That video is pretty clear.
quote:Originally posted by ncball:
Hand path is circular
For the hand path to be circular, the back elbow would have to straighten away from the body at go and then pull back in to contact. It just doesn't happen that way.
quote:Originally posted by BlueDog:quote:One thing that would help right away would be for him to tip his bathead forward to about his head at the point he is in the game pic. This would give his lower body time to get ahead of his upper body.
Power, in all due respect, I don't think this is where the timing of separation happens.....
Separation starts at the moment weight shift begins, IMO...
I agree, but the tilt forward should slow the hands from starting forward, since the bathead will have to start rearward. Provided all other parts of his swing are working right, it should put him back in sync. IMO, it's worth a shot to try and see where he is at that point with another video. As I told him earlier, IMO, he should find a good instructor to work with him on a regular basis. There is only so much that can be done over the internet.
Den,
Could you post the video to the "tiny pic" site?
(I can't get you tube here).
Could you post the video to the "tiny pic" site?
(I can't get you tube here).
quote:Originally posted by John YaYa:quote:Originally posted by powertoallfields:
The effort to get them there is. The body and like I said, the top hand end up moving them to the inside near contact, but the momentum is moving straight, not circular to the direction of the hit.
Sorry, but this is simply wrong.
I have never seen an overhead view of a major leaguer taking a linear hand path.
The thing you aren't seeing is that the bottom hand only moves maybe 6" from go to contact on a pitch down the middle.
quote:Originally posted by BlueDog:quote:So in this picture you can see he is just about to bring his hands through but hasn't finished his stride. So that is where the lack of separation is.
Okay, to me from this point in his swing, his hands are stacked and the bat is tilted behind him. The first thing I would try, would be to make his bat straight up and down in his stance so that all he would have to do is tilt the head of the bat toward the Pitcher in front of his head to about even with his head. From that point, he would just need to reach with his front foot toward the Pitcher as he loaded his hands and turning his bellybutton to the direction of the hit. As his front toe lands he should still be loading his hands. As the front heel plants, the back hip should fire and his hands should start to go forward. These changes can be made without changing much of what he is already doing right, IMO.
It's really no different than pitching. The Pitcher needs to get to front heel plant as the ball gets to the high c o c k e d position. The back hip fires to reach cusp.
quote:Originally posted by Midlo Dad:
John Ya Ya, Had to laugh at the screen name. That particular movie is a cult favorite of mine!
It was between Ya Ya and Bigboote.
quote:Originally posted by powertoallfields:
For the hand path to be circular, the back elbow would have to straighten away from the body at go and then pull back in to contact. It just doesn't happen that way.
No, that hands would just have to turn with the back shoulder.
...which is what they do.
Also, the hand path isn't perfectly circular. However, it's much more circular than linear.
quote:Originally posted by powertoallfields:quote:Originally posted by LClifton:
Thanks, LClifton! That video is pretty clear.
PTAF,
Please provide an OVERHEAD view of a major leaguer with a linear hand path.
You keep making your case based on the worst possible angle for judging the handpath.
quote:Originally posted by BlueDog:
Circular or linear hand path is semantics, IMO...
I believe a case could be made for both...It's like the rotational vs. linear swing argument...You can look at a video and see whichever one you wanna see....
The handpath is much more circular than linear, especially on a good swing.
quote:Originally posted by powertoallfields:
The thing you aren't seeing is that the bottom hand only moves maybe 6" from go to contact on a pitch down the middle.
Please provide video that demonstrates this.
quote:Originally posted by John YaYa:quote:Originally posted by powertoallfields:
The thing you aren't seeing is that the bottom hand only moves maybe 6" from go to contact on a pitch down the middle.
Please provide video that demonstrates this.
How about the videos of Ortiz, Wright, and Howard on page 3 of this thread. Rotation moves them most of the way forward before they ever start to the ball. There is a frame by frame picture shot of Pujols on this site somewhere that shows exactly what I'm talking about. I believe it was from Chris O'Leary's site. You can clearly see that the hands don't move (in relation to the body) until the bellybutton is pointing forward.
quote:Originally posted by John YaYa:quote:Originally posted by powertoallfields:
For the hand path to be circular, the back elbow would have to straighten away from the body at go and then pull back in to contact. It just doesn't happen that way.
No, that hands would just have to turn with the back shoulder.
...which is what they do.
Also, the hand path isn't perfectly circular. However, it's much more circular than linear.
I have been saying all along...AT GO...they move in a straight line to just before contact. This video shows it clearly.
quote:Originally posted by John YaYa:quote:Originally posted by BlueDog:
Circular or linear hand path is semantics, IMO...
I believe a case could be made for both...It's like the rotational vs. linear swing argument...You can look at a video and see whichever one you wanna see....
The handpath is much more circular than linear, especially on a good swing.
As Bluedog has stated before, momentum is forward and upward, not around. If you spin, you are losing momentum THROUGH the ball.
quote:Originally posted by BlueDog:quote:As his front toe lands he should still be loading his hands...........These changes can be made without changing much of what he is already doing right, IMO.
Power, to the contrary, his whole sequence needs to change....
He is nowhere near being in synch with a workable swing pattern....
Weight shift needs to begin right after the back hip loading, or as some say, negative move...This young man has not shifted any weight and the ball is on him....
He will at least be closer. Changes may still need to be made, but you have to start somewhere. In your example of the Pitcher you were working with you said it took you 2 hours to figure out where his sync problem was, IMO, the closer you can get it, the easier it will be to fix.
quote:Weight shift needs to begin right after the back hip loading, or as some say, the negative move...This young man has not shifted any weight and the ball is on him....
Realize that this is soft toss from 45 degree angle. A lot can happen between this point and contact. If he could show a photo a couple of frames before contact we could see better, IMO.
quote:Originally posted by BlueDog:quote:So in this picture you can see he is just about to bring his hands through but hasn't finished his stride. So that is where the lack of separation is.
DenJake, yes....His lower half should be far ahead at this point in his swing process....
Can you post a clip of ARod or Soriano? Someone with a big leg lift.
Ya Ya,
It's BigbootE' ! You forgot the accent!
I guess nobody wants to be named Smallberries, though.
It's BigbootE' ! You forgot the accent!
I guess nobody wants to be named Smallberries, though.
quote:Originally posted by BlueDog:
Their leg lift begins before ball release....
Right! What I wanted to see, was the timing of the leg lift and bat tip. The bat tip is timed with the peak of leg lift so that the hands are loading at toe plant and will be ready for "go" at heel plant. The higher the leg lift the more time you have to take to get the hips open and hands loaded. The same goes for a long stride forward.
This timing or sync as you say is the same as pitching. If a Pitcher has a runner on base, he is going to speed up his arm action and leg action. They both have to be sped up to get to the right "go" point on time.
quote:Originally posted by powertoallfields:
As Bluedog has stated before, momentum is forward and upward, not around. If you spin, you are losing momentum THROUGH the ball.
How do you define spinning?
quote:Originally posted by BlueDog:
Circular or linear hand path is semantics, IMO...
I believe a case could be made for both...It's like the rotational vs. linear swing argument...You can look at a video and see whichever one you wanna see....
Not if you look at an overhead view.
Overhead views show that the vast majority of major league hand paths, with the exception of Ichiro, are much more circular than linear.
quote:Originally posted by powertoallfields:
I have been saying all along...AT GO...they move in a straight line to just before contact. This video shows it clearly.
The hand path is linear until the front foot plants, but from then it's circular.
I'll give you a J-shaped hand path, but not a purely linear one.
quote:Originally posted by powertoallfields:
It appears to me that he is pulling his bat through with his biceps and wrists. He isn't getting extension through the ball and he has very little separation between upper and lower body, it looks more like a spin to me.
Here's a video clip of Rocco Baldelli hitting a home run to left field using basically the same swing as the kid in question (as far as the upper body is concerned).
Obviously, your extension theory has some holes in it.
