After you have loaded and your stride is complete and are in a proper position to start the swing (attack the ball), what is a good key to use during practice to initiate the swing..........
Michaels Dad....you better have the upper body going before you get to this point....the hip rotation should continue the shoulder rotation and arm and hand action
swingbuster: "Michaels Dad....you better have the upper body going before you get to this point....the hip rotation should continue the shoulder rotation and arm and hand action"
I guess I am a little confused, are you saying that the shoulders should be rotating before the stride foot touches down? I thought that could lead to a premature opening of the hips, a tendancy to pull the ball, and a loss of power. I have always heard that the stride foot touches, preferably just as the pitcher reaches his release point, and at that point the rotation begins - hips and shoulders -and then the hands fire to the ball. Is that incorrect? Please explain.
I guess I am a little confused, are you saying that the shoulders should be rotating before the stride foot touches down? I thought that could lead to a premature opening of the hips, a tendancy to pull the ball, and a loss of power. I have always heard that the stride foot touches, preferably just as the pitcher reaches his release point, and at that point the rotation begins - hips and shoulders -and then the hands fire to the ball. Is that incorrect? Please explain.
If you were pitching would you take your arm back then stride forward and then throw or would your hand be going back as you started your stride and come up in the throwing position as you front leg turned over. Food for thought as they grow up in the game.........
You can preload little kids upper body and be successful. The swing is SEEN as beginning at heel drop but its the "middle" ...the hips drive that drops the heel. The best cue I have used is the lead elbow stays behind the belly button until to touch and rotate the hips and keep the hands back and relaxed as long as possible. Attempts to hit with the arm s and hands before the hip turn engages will kill power
You can preload little kids upper body and be successful. The swing is SEEN as beginning at heel drop but its the "middle" ...the hips drive that drops the heel. The best cue I have used is the lead elbow stays behind the belly button until to touch and rotate the hips and keep the hands back and relaxed as long as possible. Attempts to hit with the arm s and hands before the hip turn engages will kill power
OK, I understand where you are coming from and agree. Perhaps I didn't explain well enough previously but I generally assume the stride ends at the instant the toe touches. As the toe touches, you are now beginning the swing. Do you agree? What would be a key to begin the shoulder/hip rotation and a drill to practice that key? Would the swing be initiated by heel drop, rear knee drive or what?
As the toe touches, you are now beginning the swing. Do you agree?
By definition yes. THe stride momentum serves to uncock the hips when the front side blocks/ firms
BUT some problems can occur at the top of the back swing( load) that make the rest of the swing bad
What would be a key to begin the shoulder/hip rotation and a drill to practice that key?
You must start with the shoulder rotation with shoulder loading which is good arm and hand action applied to the bat. At this point the hips can be cocking too.
Would the swing be initiated by heel drop, rear knee drive or what?
I would say hips turn from the middle out ( Coach C ). If you think heel you think feet. It becomes two stage...i.e. drop the heel ;turn the hips...thats bad. The hips can be rotating into toe touch depending on pitch location. The hands are still back because of the arm action. The hips rotate and the shoulders rotate and the knob turns the corner.
I have used drop the heel and hit from no stride and it works OK. Just make sure the hitter knows thats hip turn and not tap dance
By definition yes. THe stride momentum serves to uncock the hips when the front side blocks/ firms
BUT some problems can occur at the top of the back swing( load) that make the rest of the swing bad
What would be a key to begin the shoulder/hip rotation and a drill to practice that key?
You must start with the shoulder rotation with shoulder loading which is good arm and hand action applied to the bat. At this point the hips can be cocking too.
Would the swing be initiated by heel drop, rear knee drive or what?
I would say hips turn from the middle out ( Coach C ). If you think heel you think feet. It becomes two stage...i.e. drop the heel ;turn the hips...thats bad. The hips can be rotating into toe touch depending on pitch location. The hands are still back because of the arm action. The hips rotate and the shoulders rotate and the knob turns the corner.
I have used drop the heel and hit from no stride and it works OK. Just make sure the hitter knows thats hip turn and not tap dance
This hitter did pretty well without "good arm and hand action"...quote:Originally posted by swingbuster:
You must start with the shoulder rotation with shoulder loading which is good arm and hand action applied to the bat. At this point the hips can be cocking too.
Jason
Jason..you are correct but the readers need to understand more.....this concept is the icing on the cake for all of us that do understand the swing but might be missing something about what defines great hitters ...from C
I think this is a great post by Coach C on the subject ..... If you can "find the bat barrel" the plane doesn't matter. You have to find the hitting part in your mind and focus your effort to bringing it to contact. You are not just swinging something. I can watch a player and tell if he is bringing the bat barrel to the ball better now.
Coach C writes
I think you all are on the mark.......and I'm all in favor of swingbuster's understanding of the start position being the key( for some,,SB). I agree with that.
I also agree that the plane transition exhibited by these great hitters (THT) is not a requirement to good hitting. Or put in another way......players can start their swings on plane without having to transition to it. This is the road I've chosen with many hitters that I work with. The reason being is that I feel that the urge to pull the bat with the lead shoulder is such a strong human instinct (based on my own experiences and that of my students), that I decided long ago to simplify the approach. I believe I've done that with my hitters. It would be hard to quantify the pro's and con's as compared to (THT........or plane transition mechanics), but none-the-less I feel comfortable in saying that all of my more experienced players are able to find the bathead on a regular basis.......something I don't see at the high school and mid-college level. The players understand how to feel the weight of the bat hit the ball and routinely choose to hit with heavy bats. I don't for a second feel I have all the answers, but when one spends the time I have in the lab it's easier to determine what's working and what's not.
Understanding the goal at contact is (for me) the most important fundamental. Jack has talked about this as well, but not at length. I think many times I, along with others, get caught up in the swing itself (what does this and that.......I love it trust me...It's all good stuff!! ), but what I discoverd was that focusing on that moment in time and redefining it's purpose changes hitters rapidly.
More to follow.....
I think this is a great post by Coach C on the subject ..... If you can "find the bat barrel" the plane doesn't matter. You have to find the hitting part in your mind and focus your effort to bringing it to contact. You are not just swinging something. I can watch a player and tell if he is bringing the bat barrel to the ball better now.
Coach C writes
I think you all are on the mark.......and I'm all in favor of swingbuster's understanding of the start position being the key( for some,,SB). I agree with that.
I also agree that the plane transition exhibited by these great hitters (THT) is not a requirement to good hitting. Or put in another way......players can start their swings on plane without having to transition to it. This is the road I've chosen with many hitters that I work with. The reason being is that I feel that the urge to pull the bat with the lead shoulder is such a strong human instinct (based on my own experiences and that of my students), that I decided long ago to simplify the approach. I believe I've done that with my hitters. It would be hard to quantify the pro's and con's as compared to (THT........or plane transition mechanics), but none-the-less I feel comfortable in saying that all of my more experienced players are able to find the bathead on a regular basis.......something I don't see at the high school and mid-college level. The players understand how to feel the weight of the bat hit the ball and routinely choose to hit with heavy bats. I don't for a second feel I have all the answers, but when one spends the time I have in the lab it's easier to determine what's working and what's not.
Understanding the goal at contact is (for me) the most important fundamental. Jack has talked about this as well, but not at length. I think many times I, along with others, get caught up in the swing itself (what does this and that.......I love it trust me...It's all good stuff!! ), but what I discoverd was that focusing on that moment in time and redefining it's purpose changes hitters rapidly.
More to follow.....
Swingbuster,
Please try to stick to the topic! Michael'sDad asked you the following question...
Jason
P.S. Does anybody out there have a clip of Mantle throwing the ball? It would be interesting to see if there are any differences in his hand and arm action.
Please try to stick to the topic! Michael'sDad asked you the following question...
You responded with the following...quote:What would be a key to begin the shoulder/hip rotation and a drill to practice that key?
Did that really answer his question? Maybe I just don't understand the swing as well as you do but I showed a Hall of Fame hitter who doesn't appear to be doing it the way you said it must be done. What is your response to that?quote:You must start with the shoulder rotation with shoulder loading which is good arm and hand action applied to the bat.
Jason
P.S. Does anybody out there have a clip of Mantle throwing the ball? It would be interesting to see if there are any differences in his hand and arm action.
Flipp-
We could pick lots of nits here like the closed front foot nit for example,but that would just be a surface feature.
Is there a deeper universal pattern/set of absolutes ? Most would say yes (Lau/Williams/Epstein,even *****).
I would stick to my arm action as king (dominates organization/implementation of universal total body rotational pattern) as one such absolute or near-absolute.
While this may apply more obviously/more near the surface for the one-sided hitter using the throwing/dominant arm as the back arm,the same remains true at a deep level for switchhitters.Symmetry/synchronization are also very important attributes of the rotational patttern.Studying swith hitters and those that are turned around so lead arm is throwing arm may be interesting to study with this (as well as the benefit of variation/variability in training) in mind.
Anyway,I would say that this hitter has good arm action that I find more common with the old heavy lumber hitters which seems to encourage them/enable them to keep the back elbow down more.That plus need to cover very high strikes (need to get lead arm up which means back arm will be relatively down). These are good hitters to concentrate on the lead arm action and how to get/stay "on top" which means the rotational axis of the body gets more upright.
Now,in the context of this particular thread,the question has come up about how the swing is initiated/what happens at "toe touch"/how to define terms.It is very difficult to pin down definitions at this static surface level,but it can be approached from the "arm action as king/sequence as near absolute" perspective.
As I have said elsewhere,the KEY is to optimize the "xfactor stretch"/"drop and tilt" aspect of the swing.This creates an efficient use of soft tissue elasticity to permit transfer and transformation of momentum to effectively "launch" the swing as opposed to compensating too much with slow/inconsistent muscular force production which must remain secondary in unloading.
"Slack" in the swing comes from poor preparation of the muscles so they can not accomplish this OR poor position/motion of the bathead.Certainly these also require a good sequence of postures and weight shift.With regard to the optimizing of coil during drop and tilt,the scap shoulder action must be well synchronized with the hip turn action to get optimal stretch and reversal in the drop and tilt.
This hitter is a good example.He is prepared to turn on this ball quickly which means that he is coiling/separating/"winding the rubber band" well before toe touch.Note the synchronization of the back arm and lead leg which externally rotate together well before toe touch.(The long swing radius/off the plate types can afford to get the lead foot down still closed except for the inside heat,but the belly-up/hook types will have to wind the rubber band well before front toe touch,all the timing determined by upper body action demanding good lower body support.Off the plate types have a less quick swing and more baseline separation to manage which is more difficult to master I would "speculate").
Now as buster says,the blocking of the front foot bearing weight boosts hip turn to maximum,but how does the body "resist"/create quick stretch (dominate/demand this of the lower body) ?
This requires good arm action lead sequencing and good "weight shift" support as follows.While coiling/winding the rubber band into toe touch is started by the synchronized external rotation of the back arm and lead leg,it is continued/soon followed by the synchronized internal rotation of the back leg and lead arm (just as in throwing).This action uncoks/turns the bat which reactively assists the shoulder link in staying back/"keeping the hands back".
As a result of the "go" decision,the timing of maximum hip turn velocity synchronized with resisting scap/shoulder action is determined."Ideally",the front foot can bear weight which boosts the hip turn to maximum and slows the forward motion of the lower body/hips.
At this point it is essential that the head be behind or even with the bellybutton (hips lead earlier if there is a good load) and the hitter must still be "sitting".
As this happens,the lead scap elevates and the weight finishes coming from "back to center".Note that the hitters head comes forward as the lead elbow rotates up into the developing swinh plane and the lead scap elevates.This accentuates coil in a quick way.At the same time the arm action is accelerating the bat head and the torso is not "rushed" so that unwinding from the middle up can "launch" the well connected shoulder link.(scap loading means the muscles across the back/upper torso/shoulder are "loaded"/chest "thrust out" so that the shoulder link is solid and driven efficiently by reversal of twist of the torso muscles.
This then sets up the unloading so that momentum is preferentially sent UP as the front foot has created a firm base and the player supports the unloading by "getting out of the chair"/creating "UP".
Arm and scap action with well timed weight shift is all key and well represented here.Very similar to throwing,but truncated so that the lead arm remains internally rotated (elbow up) and the back ("throwing") arm never internally rotates.It just stays externally rotated as it extends instead of any "rapid acceleration by internal rotation" as in the additional phase of throwing.Do not forget the importance of lead arm action in throwing and hitting and how the weight shift needs to synch in each skill.
We could pick lots of nits here like the closed front foot nit for example,but that would just be a surface feature.
Is there a deeper universal pattern/set of absolutes ? Most would say yes (Lau/Williams/Epstein,even *****).
I would stick to my arm action as king (dominates organization/implementation of universal total body rotational pattern) as one such absolute or near-absolute.
While this may apply more obviously/more near the surface for the one-sided hitter using the throwing/dominant arm as the back arm,the same remains true at a deep level for switchhitters.Symmetry/synchronization are also very important attributes of the rotational patttern.Studying swith hitters and those that are turned around so lead arm is throwing arm may be interesting to study with this (as well as the benefit of variation/variability in training) in mind.
Anyway,I would say that this hitter has good arm action that I find more common with the old heavy lumber hitters which seems to encourage them/enable them to keep the back elbow down more.That plus need to cover very high strikes (need to get lead arm up which means back arm will be relatively down). These are good hitters to concentrate on the lead arm action and how to get/stay "on top" which means the rotational axis of the body gets more upright.
Now,in the context of this particular thread,the question has come up about how the swing is initiated/what happens at "toe touch"/how to define terms.It is very difficult to pin down definitions at this static surface level,but it can be approached from the "arm action as king/sequence as near absolute" perspective.
As I have said elsewhere,the KEY is to optimize the "xfactor stretch"/"drop and tilt" aspect of the swing.This creates an efficient use of soft tissue elasticity to permit transfer and transformation of momentum to effectively "launch" the swing as opposed to compensating too much with slow/inconsistent muscular force production which must remain secondary in unloading.
"Slack" in the swing comes from poor preparation of the muscles so they can not accomplish this OR poor position/motion of the bathead.Certainly these also require a good sequence of postures and weight shift.With regard to the optimizing of coil during drop and tilt,the scap shoulder action must be well synchronized with the hip turn action to get optimal stretch and reversal in the drop and tilt.
This hitter is a good example.He is prepared to turn on this ball quickly which means that he is coiling/separating/"winding the rubber band" well before toe touch.Note the synchronization of the back arm and lead leg which externally rotate together well before toe touch.(The long swing radius/off the plate types can afford to get the lead foot down still closed except for the inside heat,but the belly-up/hook types will have to wind the rubber band well before front toe touch,all the timing determined by upper body action demanding good lower body support.Off the plate types have a less quick swing and more baseline separation to manage which is more difficult to master I would "speculate").
Now as buster says,the blocking of the front foot bearing weight boosts hip turn to maximum,but how does the body "resist"/create quick stretch (dominate/demand this of the lower body) ?
This requires good arm action lead sequencing and good "weight shift" support as follows.While coiling/winding the rubber band into toe touch is started by the synchronized external rotation of the back arm and lead leg,it is continued/soon followed by the synchronized internal rotation of the back leg and lead arm (just as in throwing).This action uncoks/turns the bat which reactively assists the shoulder link in staying back/"keeping the hands back".
As a result of the "go" decision,the timing of maximum hip turn velocity synchronized with resisting scap/shoulder action is determined."Ideally",the front foot can bear weight which boosts the hip turn to maximum and slows the forward motion of the lower body/hips.
At this point it is essential that the head be behind or even with the bellybutton (hips lead earlier if there is a good load) and the hitter must still be "sitting".
As this happens,the lead scap elevates and the weight finishes coming from "back to center".Note that the hitters head comes forward as the lead elbow rotates up into the developing swinh plane and the lead scap elevates.This accentuates coil in a quick way.At the same time the arm action is accelerating the bat head and the torso is not "rushed" so that unwinding from the middle up can "launch" the well connected shoulder link.(scap loading means the muscles across the back/upper torso/shoulder are "loaded"/chest "thrust out" so that the shoulder link is solid and driven efficiently by reversal of twist of the torso muscles.
This then sets up the unloading so that momentum is preferentially sent UP as the front foot has created a firm base and the player supports the unloading by "getting out of the chair"/creating "UP".
Arm and scap action with well timed weight shift is all key and well represented here.Very similar to throwing,but truncated so that the lead arm remains internally rotated (elbow up) and the back ("throwing") arm never internally rotates.It just stays externally rotated as it extends instead of any "rapid acceleration by internal rotation" as in the additional phase of throwing.Do not forget the importance of lead arm action in throwing and hitting and how the weight shift needs to synch in each skill.
I think I did answer in a way that works for me. I think I also said
"If you can "find the bat barrel" the plane doesn't matter." THats a Coach C quote that I agree with and I agree with your feeling that what I say is not for everybody....your position is crystal clear.
He also asked "What would be a key to begin the shoulder/hip rotation and a drill to practice that key?
Does he mean the load cycle or the swing here...I do not know..the beginning of WHAT move that he asks..yes I know your shouldn't counter rotate your shoulders but my players coil their hips.
I went back to see what ruffled feathers .....I do include you in "those that understand the swing" sorry if you read that wrong. Remember this is HSBBWEB.... my goal is never to humiliate, insult, or imply some sort of Dali Lama superiority....just have some fun sharing without censorship things that I have found useful. I do work currently with about 50 kids on occassion and I have found that they have individual needs.
I will now add that (even if it WEAKENS MY POSITION AND STRENGTHENS YOURS), you can load and unload in the 45 slot,(Gonzalez, Rose ), preload
( Garciaparra), or use some degree of plane transition requiring more arm and action i.e. Bonds, Aaron , Ruth, Sheffield, Puckett, Bo Jackson, Ted Williams, Sosa, CHipper, Dunn, Glaus, .
Its pretty simple try it both ways and see what helps you hit best. Then I would stay with that one.
"If you can "find the bat barrel" the plane doesn't matter." THats a Coach C quote that I agree with and I agree with your feeling that what I say is not for everybody....your position is crystal clear.
He also asked "What would be a key to begin the shoulder/hip rotation and a drill to practice that key?
Does he mean the load cycle or the swing here...I do not know..the beginning of WHAT move that he asks..yes I know your shouldn't counter rotate your shoulders but my players coil their hips.
I went back to see what ruffled feathers .....I do include you in "those that understand the swing" sorry if you read that wrong. Remember this is HSBBWEB.... my goal is never to humiliate, insult, or imply some sort of Dali Lama superiority....just have some fun sharing without censorship things that I have found useful. I do work currently with about 50 kids on occassion and I have found that they have individual needs.
I will now add that (even if it WEAKENS MY POSITION AND STRENGTHENS YOURS), you can load and unload in the 45 slot,(Gonzalez, Rose ), preload
( Garciaparra), or use some degree of plane transition requiring more arm and action i.e. Bonds, Aaron , Ruth, Sheffield, Puckett, Bo Jackson, Ted Williams, Sosa, CHipper, Dunn, Glaus, .
Its pretty simple try it both ways and see what helps you hit best. Then I would stay with that one.
Why didn't you post a clip of Bonds? Or Sheffield? Or Pujols? Or a number of others?
Swingbuster,
You didn't ruffle my feathers. I'm just trying to play the devil's advocate. That's why I posted the clip of Mantle. I don't consider myself an "expert" on anything. I'm nothing more than a dad trying to help his young son maximize his potential as a hitter.
Later!
Jason
You didn't ruffle my feathers. I'm just trying to play the devil's advocate. That's why I posted the clip of Mantle. I don't consider myself an "expert" on anything. I'm nothing more than a dad trying to help his young son maximize his potential as a hitter.
Later!
Jason
Bob & Weave.
Previous Quote: "What would be a key to begin the shoulder/hip rotation and a drill to practice that key? Would the swing be initiated by heel drop, rear knee drive or what?"
By this I meant, the player has already loaded (achieved initial toe touch) and is now ready to begin his attack of the ball, is there a useful key or keys that should initiate the rotation toward the incoming ball (heel drop, rear knee drive toward the pitcher, or just plain thrust the rear hip forward)? What drills could be used to isolate and practice this start of the rotation toward the ball?
By this I meant, the player has already loaded (achieved initial toe touch) and is now ready to begin his attack of the ball, is there a useful key or keys that should initiate the rotation toward the incoming ball (heel drop, rear knee drive toward the pitcher, or just plain thrust the rear hip forward)? What drills could be used to isolate and practice this start of the rotation toward the ball?
Start it in the center.
Get away from, FAR away from, the legs and knees as a focal point for the start of a swing.
Get away from, FAR away from, the legs and knees as a focal point for the start of a swing.
the problem I have with the Mantle clip is that we have no idea about what happened. I'll be the first to admit, its not a thing of beauty.
But who says that's his normal swing? what if he got fooled? what if he hit a weak grounder?
can't just look at one swing in a vacuum.
But who says that's his normal swing? what if he got fooled? what if he hit a weak grounder?
can't just look at one swing in a vacuum.
Michaels Dad,
While I agree with Teacherman here, I'm not sure about the answer to that question.
I am fairly sure its the midsection uncoiling.
Ted Williams said that " the coiling of the hips AS you stride to hit is the most important part of hitting" then then answer must be the uncoiling of the hips.
When Epstein says the begining of the true swing is heel drop.....he is right "as seen on TV" but not as a literal cue if you think and activate feet.
While I agree with Teacherman here, I'm not sure about the answer to that question.
I am fairly sure its the midsection uncoiling.
Ted Williams said that " the coiling of the hips AS you stride to hit is the most important part of hitting" then then answer must be the uncoiling of the hips.
When Epstein says the begining of the true swing is heel drop.....he is right "as seen on TV" but not as a literal cue if you think and activate feet.
I think its interesting that many of you think that Epstein is off the mark when saying the dropping of the heel is the initiation of the swing. Thinking it through, I can see how worrying about the heel is a bit of a distraction and could be the "result" of the hips turning,
however,
what about the kinetic chain, and how its supposed to work upward. The dropping of the heel certainly is a key in unlocking the hips.
Does the kinetic chain work up and down from the middle, or up from the heel? I'm certainly no physics major, that's for sure
however,
what about the kinetic chain, and how its supposed to work upward. The dropping of the heel certainly is a key in unlocking the hips.
Does the kinetic chain work up and down from the middle, or up from the heel? I'm certainly no physics major, that's for sure
Thanks for the responses, I enjoyed the discussion.
Middle out just like dropping a stone in a pond.
