Swing Mechanics

Depends on the kid and their goals. Generally I'm not comfortable enough with my practical ability to teach the swing to mess with someone who is doing well. If I saw problems with a kid who was doing well I'd try to get them to work work with a hitting instructor I felt comfortable with.

I do have a 14yo currently on my Pony team who is a good athlete but doesn't realize it. He's a ninth grader and didn't go out for his freshman team. He's got great wheels and also moves to the ball extremely well but then looks awkward making the catch. He only has a mediocre arm primarily because of poor mechanics. His swing is terrible with a major loop and dropping the hands and dipping to try to swing level to the ground on every pitch. I'll try to make significant changes in his swing if the parents won't get him to a hitting instructor simply because there's nothing to lose.

Good question.

IMO, it'ss easier to teach a new kid a proper baseball swing then it is to teach a player who has a swing that is totally wrecked due to improper mechanics.

But, I think the most difficult task is taking a good player with a good swing and fine tuning it. Too much tweaking and you're doing no good (or even harm)...No tweaking and the results at the plate begin to dwindle. Finding that happy medium and knowing the who, what, when and where's IMO is the most difficult task of all.

I have a pretty good base knowledge of the proper rotational hitting mechanics. Teaching these from the ground up to new players is my strength...

I have my son pretty well schooled in his mechanics. The problem I have is fine tuning those little quirks.

To answer your question...Personally, I would get the accomplished hitter to a professional, knowledable hitting instructor (or someone better then myself), and I would build on the other hitters technique myself. Starting over from the ground up working step by step...If hitter "B" is a stud athlete, he should be able to pick up on the mechanics fairly easy.....Seeing the ball and actually hitting it is a far tougher course...Ask Michael Jordon...

GnR

GNR & others,

Speaking of MJ.

How much better do you think Jordan might have done if he were taught rotational mechanics instead of that Hriniak chop down on the ball and then follow through like a helicopter swing?

Do you treat them differently? Obviously, the kid that has played and will continue to play seems to need less attention. Such may or may not be the case depending upon the problems with the swing. The athletic kid that hasn't played as much would then seem to need a lot more attention. In my humble opinion, any decent program has a "base" that they fall back upon when dealing with hitting, fielding and/or pitching. You need to identify a starting place for both players based upon your philosophy and base and then work individually with both. Both need individual drills, both need to be taped from the beginning of the correction throughout the process. I would mention one thing, I believe that you work with one emphasis at a time. You can't overload a player with several thoughts, cues, drills, etc. You work through stages until you reach a final product. One last thought, when you are done, you have to make sure that the process has not produced further problems. One easy example of this is that player who can't transfer the drill out onto the field without becoming mechanical because he is thinking too much and not "trusting the drill work." JMHO!

It has been my goal as a hitting coach to give the player more time. More reaction time. More time to read the pitch. I think if I've done that then I've done my job.

To get him more reaction time you have to shorten the time from decision to contact. Which means increase swing quickness. The process of teaching this has really been interesting.

One of the most successful cues I've used to demonstrate swing quickness is to load my forefinger against my thumb as if to flick someone with my forefinger. Then flick it. This demonstrates just how quick the launch needs to be.

Most of the kids I work with are your "they need to improve or they are done" kind of kids. Leftovers. Hanger ons. Kids on their last leg. They have no concept of the swings quickness and they really get the point when they hear this example. Another example I've used is a pin ball machine. The time from your decision to hit the flipper button until it flips. That is just how quick the swing launch has to be.

What we learn is there is slack in their swings that needs to be taken out for them to begin having success. This slack shows it head in many forms and you have to experiment to find it. But it is much easier to find when they can feel how slow they really are.

Now begin your search for the right stance, the right load, the right body tilt, the right knee bend, the right whatever, so that you can launch quickly. Problem is, these factors are different from player to player. But the important key is the first movement of rotation must move the barrell. If it doesn't move you have some slack.

Teacherman:

That's the best post by you that I have ever read. Very helpful and insightful. Just wanted you to know that.

THop

The reason I bring this up is to discuss what is basic and what is advanced. What do you have to have to hit well at the hs level as compared to what will take a good hitter farther. What will produce a good offensive player versus what improves a good players power. What will help a kid who has ability but never hit much before, become an effective hs player.

It is my opinion that this is where a hs coach earns his keep. Getting something out of his 7,8 and 9 spots. Or, teaching the great glove to play offense also.

Again, my interest in this is because I seem to get put in touch with these kinds of kids. Adding 10%-15% to their long ball isn't what we're trying to do. Making consistent solid contact with frequent line drives in the gap, to me, is the first step. Adding power is possible only after a good base swing is built and the confidence is built.

However, that being said, the newly built base swing has to be such that "additions" can be made to increase their power once they've accomplished the basic swing.

Concentrating on batspeed is the kiss of death for these kids. Yet, that is what they hear over and over and over.

Hip drive is common to both swings

1. Basic swing ( quickness)...bottom hand pulls from 45 slot. "wipe the table swing". It constitutes about 1/2 to 3/4 of the potential swing arc

2. Advanced (power and bat speed) vertical bat that uses Plane Transition to get torque. Uses the entire swing arc. Gets the full arc and power. Must start it erlier and recognize the pitch.

I feel I can teach the advanced swing well now but I know some kids will be late . Its not that the swing is slow ; its they start late

Good Post Teach.... Getting connected and in the right posture in the basic swing can win games for sure. I have used the line coaching these kids too..."hip turn is moving bat barrel"...that defines connection. The same is true in the advanced swing ;it just starts happening when the pitcher shows you his a**

Teacherman, very thoughtful post. PM!

A similar cue that shows the needed swing quickness is.....hold a ruler on one end, pull back the other end to create torque, then snap somebody.

If you can learn to organize the body so that the swing is this quick you've got potential.

Problem is so many kids have to move to launch first so they can launch when they should be just launching. Slack.

Instead of having the ruler cocked and ready so on decision they fire, they are cocking the ruler when it should be firing. Slack.

I've heard many people say something similar by saying..."you're not getting your foot down on time". And, they are probably right. But you can also get the foot down on time and still have slack in other areas.

This leads to my main point. What is the main cause of slack? Not what body part, or not what type of load, not what stance etc, but what mental concept causes slack in young hitters.........???

The need for batspeed.

Haven't posted on here before, but have been reading for a week or so. Most of the posts on here are quite good and informative..Some too combative but I understand the nature of message boards and ego's at times. The last couple posts have hit home with me especially. I'm a head baseball coach in Texas and we have had much success lately including playing for it all last season. I believe like ya'll that you can always learn and improve your knowlede so i'm glad to have discovered this site.. Anyways to my point.
I have become very confused and basically have had a very tough time forming an identity with what i teach my hitters. We hit .309 last year as a team, but i think it could be much higher. The "basic swing" vs. the "advanced swing" is something that i'm glad is being discussed, and clarify's that there is a difference in the minds of many of you too.. My biggest problem however is generally in regards to philosophy. After buying and listening to so many hit gurus over the last 7 years i'm at a point of frustration..Examples include Mike Schmidt's combined system, Perry Husband,Gary Ward, Ron Polk, charlie Lau, Epstein and many many more including two friends that own hitting facilities themselves and profess to be hit guru's.. I have tinkered between "The Combined system and Epstein in which i'm more inclined to be impressed by Epstein..Qustions i ask however are..Will my kids hit too many fly balls? Is there really a necessaty for an upswing? etc....Then there is the fact that both guys who are freinds of mine have both hit succesfully in college baseball and developed many kids including Big Leaguer Laynce Nix of the Texas Rangers..(they both teach throw the back knee and several other Epstein no no's..What i'm asking is what do most of you think of Epstein( pure rotational) and others out there...Where do most of your foundations lie? Help

I have seen 'fear' the biggest mental concept in hitters that causes slack. The fear that I will swing at a bad pitch, not swing at a good pitch. this causes doubt and thus slack in the mental preparedness to launch the swing. I am sure there are other things, but fear of failure I have found to be my biggest obstacle when I work with hitters. We all understand that baseball is a game of failure, he who fails the least gets paid the most. I try to change the mind set of a young hitter. Don't hit .400 be a .400 hitter. Hard to do with some, gotta battle an over zealous relative. What are some of the mental things you teach to young hitters to get them beyond this? One last thought, I have often told my own son, Focus on this at bat, hit 1.000 this at bat then after it forget it you can't change the results.

I see no relationship between fear and slack.

If fear is present you have a whole nother problem.

Slack is poor allignment, or poor coil, or poor load, or poor whatever that causes a delay in the actual swing.

Not a mental delay but a physical delay. The decision to swing has been made.....the body tries to execute the swing......and it is delayed due to poor mechanics.

Slack is using rotation to get the bat in position to swing versus already having it in position so the rotation immediatley moves the barrell.

Teach,

Good initial post and topic. One of the two players I was working with last night has “slack” in their swing just as you described. The player is an extremely strong and talented 14 year old.

The “slack” is created because his barrel lags a split second too late after rotation. It causes his swing to be late and in addition makes it hard to match the plane of the ball early.

The other player is also 14 and sits on his back leg and mashes. He still reaches out on some inside pitches but is getting much better now that he realizes that he can get his bat through and can hit pitches deeper in the zone.

HotCorner,

I think I know what you mean. I take it you are referring to fear of failure, which is quite different from fear of the ball. Fear of failure can create a late swing and possibly slack because a player does not want to swing and miss. They have the mindset that it is better to wait and see the ball and then put the bat on the ball, then to load and actually drive the ball but risk missing every thing at times.Some time it creates a situation where they start their body but fail to start their bat until the ball is well on its way.

Roy,
Welcome, good post also.

I instruct a pure rotational swing similar to most of the successful big league hitters. Reading Teach’s posts the past year, I believe we share a lot in common. I have found also Jack Mankin’s site, Batspeed.com to be the most compatible with what I instruct.

I have some differences from Epstein. I prefer my hitters to stay back more like Bonds than many instructors who instruct a more stride to balance like a Tejada. I also prefer my hitters to keep their lead arm closer to their pec than Epstein. I guess to each his own but when I watch young hitters, one of the most obvious problems among rotational hitters is that many still have their weight going forward and they fail to match the plane of the ball early and get the bat head where they can drive the ball. As far as linear style, unless you are a speedy left handed slap hitter playing fast pitch softball, I think it’s a pitcher’s best friend. Having said that, this is still what most high school and college coaches teach in my area and that’s why I feel there are so few outstanding hitters around.

Here are a couple examples of what I am talking about regarding about what I like and dislike. Go to

http://mlb.mlb.com/NASApp/mlb/mlb/draftday/y2004/search.jsp?sc=position&sp=SS

and look at the Pirates draft pick Brian Bixler from Eastern Michigan. He is the 52nd pick last year. He is just one example of the obvious flaw of bad weight transfer I speak of.

Then look at the next short stop taken who is Dustin Pedroia. This kid is one of the few of the short stops that are shown with a swing that looks like they are going to be able to handle wood without much adjustment. The kid really sits back, matches the plane and drives the ball as does Stephen Drew.

I think the differences are obvious.

In addition I believe that coaches who try to mix the styles of hitting are doing a disservice. Rotational hitting is proven by the top pro hitters to get the job done but there are some absolutes that need to be done correctly to maximize the outcome.

Teacherman,

Your last paragraph says it all to me. I tell my hitters that they CANNOT be traveling back into launch position, when the ball is entering the hitting zone. They will NEVER get the barrell to the hitting zone in time.

Orioles42

Teach, I agree that slack is not having the body and the bat loaded by the time the pitcher gets to his release point. That physical slack will cause a late sing and magnify already bad mechanics. The fear of failure causes a mental distraction, this distraction can cause the rest not to do its part in getting proper load for a good mechanical swing.

I was looking at this part of your proposed questions when I spoke about the mental preparation of a batter. "but what mental concept causes slack in young hitters.........???"

Actually went and checked out batspeed.com right before coming back here..Saw his name mentioned a-lot. I like the stuff and a guy i know that teaches has some of his stuff. My only problem is the circular pattern causing players to get out of the path too soon..I don't neccasarily agree with all of Epsteins stuff either. The stride to balance is very akward and different than what i've done or taught. I too beleive more in staying back more than that and matching the plane.. Have any of you read Schmidt's combined theory?? Any takes?

Slack is a result of not unloading properly.......There is a loading process and an unloading process in the swing.....Very few amateur hitters unload properly....Almost none.....Unloading is about finding the swing plane with the hands and arms with extreme bat quickness.....Get to the plane quickly......Then let the shoulders pull the bat through the hitting zone.....This is where batspeed comes into play, not before.....

The problem with almost all amateur hitters is that they let the load in the back shoulder break down well before it's time to unload.....This creates slack (extra movements) and changes the load position which they were in......They go from a decent load position to a load position that isn't even really loaded, anymore....

Roy Hobbs

Nothing wrong with stride to balance but it is done to support the upper body rotation and not to initiate it. Thats why you likely feel it is axkward....I did.........

What if the shoulders had loaded and the bat was turning the corner as you made your stride to balance.........now your right...you cannot stride to balance and then hit....won't work

Several areas have been mentioned as areas of slack. Improper unload is probably true but vague. Where in the unload? Arms, wrists, connection between upper half and lower half? Separation? I think it can be any of them.

But the sign to look for is does the first movement of rotation move the barrell.

quote:

... My only problem is the circular pattern causing players to get out of the path too soon.....

Explain what you mean here.

"But the sign to look for is does the first movement of rotation move the barrell."

This is vague.....Movement of the barrell in which direction?.....Most amateur hitters let the barrel drop toward the ground as the first move....This is where the load in the rear shoulder breaks down causing slack......

The move you want to see is the bat barrel pointing back to the catcher as the first move with rotation........This is the proper move in the unload, I'm sure we both agree.....

Just curious if anyone read my previous post and had a chance to take a look at the player's videos on MLB.com I referenced?

If so, what's your take?

I think wrist would be the first area of slack, then arms, a lot of kids I see casting.

I think the concern that some may have on circular pattern and getting out of the path is pulling off the ball, most coaches respond this by telling the batter to keep his head in, when the batters timing was off and he found himself way out front and his swing finished before the ball got there.

Roy,

I did a quick search for Schmidt and hitting and came up with this article.

http://philadelphia.phillies.mlb.com/NASApp/mlb/phi/news/phi_news.jsp?ymd=20030226&content_id=204643&vkey=spt2003news&fext=.jsp

In it was this paragraph,

"The trio discussed hitting philosophies and found themselves in agreement. Schmidt believes in chopping down on the ball to create backspin."

If this is his theory it would undermine his credibility for me.

I challenge anyone to go up to home plate and swing down at a ball to create back spin and then see how far the ball goes.

Now on the other hand, let's say you matched the plane of an incoming ball (which would be planing upwards) and instead of hitting it perfectly square, you missed it and hit underneath it. In this case the backspin you create may be beneficial if you got enough of the ball.

Seems pretty basic.

Sounds like Mike Schmidt is better at hitting a baseball than trying to explain how to do it.

quote:

Originally posted by SBK:
Just curious if anyone read my previous post and had a chance to take a look at the player's videos on MLB.com I referenced?

If so, what's your take?

I watched both Bixler and Pedroia and although I'm just a cyberscout, I can't believe Bixler is a draftee. He must be Ozzie Smith in the field.

Pedroia looked much better to me.

Wish I could play them frame by frame. Am I missing somehting? Is that possible?

I agree.....Bixler will have to develop better swing mechanics to have a chance......

Teach,

What amazed me even more is that I saw many Bixler types and very, very few Pedroia types.

I am particularly interested in short stops and went through all of them.

I wish I had time to go through all of their first year seasons and see if their results matches my assumptions.

For the heck of it I'm going to see how these two fared.

quote:

.....Movement of the barrell in which direction?.....Most amateur hitters let the barrel drop toward the ground as the first move....This is where the load in the rear shoulder breaks down causing slack......

The move you want to see is the bat barrel pointing back to the catcher as the first move with rotation........This is the proper move in the unload, I'm sure we both agree.....

Interesting comments. Not sure amateur is the right word for letting the barrell drop straight down.





I see the barrell dropping straight down in both of these hitters PRIOR to rotation. As part of the prelaunch, get on plane part of the swing.

Which brings up the question of when does the swing start? Swing....not preswing, prelaunch etc etc.

When I say rotation must move the barrell, I'm saying it must arc it toward contact. No frames of rotation without arc. Which in your words is back toward the catcher.

No surprise here.

Pedroia .400 & .336
http://www.baseballamerica.com/cgi-bin/statsfindplayer.pl?player=pedroia

Bixler .276
http://www.baseballamerica.com/cgi-bin/statsfindplayer.pl?player=bixler


Bixler struck out around 50 strikeouts in around 220 ab's. and had no home runs.

Under-sized Pedroia had 4 homeruns but incredibly was listed for just 7 strikeouts in 167 ab's.

I'd say Pedroia is looking to be a money ball player in the bigs.

Interesting clips.

In fairness to Pujols, it is hard to look good on a pitch that is probably high but he seemed to have done all right. It's amazing how far back in the zone he hits it and is still able to do something with it.

It looks like Chipper got his pitch.

What's very evident is that both these player's mechanics allow them to get their bat on the pitch plane early so that even if their timing were off, they would still hit the ball hard. In addition it is obvious that their mechanics allow them to get to a high velocity quickly.

Isn't that barrell dropping just that.....searching for the plane.

And once they are on or very near plane they launch?

I believe the wrist being loaded causing the bat to start at about the same angle as the back leg has much to do with the barrel dropping as the swing begins, the hands are staying in close, unload those wrist and slack develops in the swing. When does the swing start, when the core begins to rotate and tension is increased between lower and upper body, difficult to see, easy to feel when it happens, then the upper body rotates. The wrist being loaded aids the bat being quick by having a short rotation to the hitting plane.

Boston drafted Exsteine also no wonder they like this guy.

"Interesting comments. Not sure amateur is the right word for letting the barrell drop straight down."

Why not Teacherman?.....You did say MLB hitters drop the barrel "prior to rotation", did you not?......And, I said amateurs drop the barrel as "with rotation"........Big difference.....

"Isn't that barrell dropping just that.....searching for the plane."

Teacherman, no, not IMO......

quote:

Originally posted by BlueDog:
"Interesting comments. Not sure amateur is the right word for letting the barrell drop straight down."

Why not Teacherman?.....You did say MLB hitters drop the barrel "prior to rotation", did you not?......And, I said amateurs drop the barrel as "with rotation"........Big difference.....

I agree.

quote:

Originally posted by BlueDog:
"Isn't that barrell dropping just that.....searching for the plane."

Teacherman, no, not IMO......

Then what do you believe it is?

quote:

Originally posted by HotCornerDad:
I believe the wrist being loaded causing the bat to start at about the same angle as the back leg has much to do with the barrel dropping as the swing begins, the hands are staying in close, unload those wrist and slack develops in the swing. When does the swing start, when the core begins to rotate and tension is increased between lower and upper body, difficult to see, easy to feel when it happens, then the upper body rotates. The wrist being loaded aids the bat being quick by having a short rotation to the hitting plane.

Boston drafted Exsteine also no wonder they like this guy.

At the risk of sounding nit picky, please punctuate your paragraph so I can understand its meaning

Teacherman,

Just so I'm clear (and who knows, I may be speaking for others), could you please define "load" and "launch".

Thanks!
goMO