Swing Mechanics

"Then what do you believe it is?"

Teacherman, probably an effect of some cause such as X-factor stretch, or a posture setup for momentum transfer.....Or, an effect of the front elbow beginning to work up....

quote:

Originally posted by goMO:
Teacherman,

Just so I'm clear (and who knows, I may be speaking for others), could you please define "load" and "launch".

Thanks!
goMO

The load is the coil or stretch that takes place to prepare for a quick explosive launch. The winding of the rubber band.

The launch, to me, is the point of no return. The aggressive beginning of rotation to where you can't stop.

okay, thanks.

so the load is a movement creating torque, while the launch is a particular point in time?
if so, do you agree with epstein that the swing is initiated with the front heel dropping to the ground? that launches the swing?

thanks!

I couldn't disagree more with Epstein and his "heel drop" starts the swing.

The swing starts in the center. The heel drops as a result.

Get in your stance, go to toe touch, drop the heel. Did you swing?

Get in your stance, go to toe touch, swing. Did your heel drop?

no, I didn't swing.

But, dropping the heel does help to open the hips.

quote:

Originally posted by goMO:
no, I didn't swing.

But, dropping the heel does help to open the hips.

Never in a million years will dropping the heel help open the hips. There is no real muscular connection between heel drop and the hips. In fact, I can open my foot, heel on the ground and have the hips completely closed.

The hips are loaded and then they open by using the large muscles of the torso/hip area. this will force the heel down.

The last thing you want is for the lower leg/foot/heel area to open the hips. Costs you big time quickness and power

Cause and effect.

As the front foot starts touching down, the hitter starts rotating his hips, but I agree with Teacherman that it does not open the hips. The timing of the individual hitter dictates when the hips start rotating, and with most of the real good hitters, it happens when the front foot is starting to touch down.

As far as teaching a young hitter to rotate, I see nothing wrong with using the front foot touching down as a cue to start him rotating.

As far as the launch goes, it depends on what a coach thinks the launching position is. I see the launching position as the position you are in just before you start your swing......loaded up and ready to go, but just a split second before you really do go.

As Teacherman said, the front heel dropping is an effect, not a cause.......A hitter shouldn't even be aware of when the front heel drops.......The rotation should open the hips causing the front heel to drop.......If you reverse this sequence, you will, as Teacherman has said, slow the swing......

I like so many others here, have the Final Arc tape by Mankin. He does reference the rotating of the front foot as the start of the swing but if I recall (sorry I am at work and can not reference the tape) that this was just to aid in the opening of the hips. I explained this phenomenon to my sone by having him do the twist (dance). He was able to understand what I was talking about and that it was really a "no teach" and it just happened if you were using your hips properly. He does use this as a self - check but he does not emphasize it during his drills.

SBK...Whats with jumping all over Bixler ?? Have you ever seen him play ?? I have had the opportunity a couple times to see him play.

Yep, I saw him strike out, bad call IMO. Also saw him line one in the left field gap, frozen rope, no higher than 20'and one hop into a 340'fence. Let me tell ya...Bixler can hit the ball hard. I have seen him turn on 90mph + fast ball, and have seen him take an outside curve to right.

SBK..somehow you from watching a three minute tape have got Bixler pegged as not being a "money player". But that free spending Pirates organization lost their minds and dropped a $450.000 signing bonus on Bixler. Dang...if only the Pirates had consulted you...SBK the expert from S.D., they could have saved themselves lot of money.

Have you ever heard anyone say that a guy with MLB talent stands out from a mile away. That they make everything look so simple, smooth and easy. That when they hit the ball it just has that different sound. IMO Bixler has all of that in spades.

No.. I am not related to him, and have never met the kid. IMO though you owe Bixler an apology.

BD and Teach.

If a cue of that nature in used maybe it should be modified to

" when you hip rotation leads; you will feel your heel drop"

I think the cue is useful for many to convince the brain to keep your hands back/ relaxed and let the rotation bring them out. Any early grabbing/ pulling the bat before hip drive kills bat speed.

quote:

Originally posted by Teacherman:

At the risk of sounding nit picky, please punctuate your paragraph so I can understand its meaning

You don't sound nit picky I was in a hurry and didn't take my time. I will try it again.

I believe the cause of the wrist being loaded creates the affect of the bat to start at about the same angle as the back leg. This has much to do with the barrel dropping as the swing begins, core rotation once the lead foot touches. The hands are staying in close, unload those wrist and slack develops in the swing. When does the swing start, when the core begins to rotate and tension is increased between lower and upper body, difficult to see, easy to feel when it happens. Then the upper body rotates. The wrist being loaded aids the bat being quick by having a short rotation to the hitting plane.

Boston drafted Eckstein also no wonder they like this guy.

Hacker

His swing doesn't pass the video test. That's what we're saying. Comparing his mechanics to the mlb swing, he's got a lot of changing to do.

I would guess, since he was drafted and signed that he has hit the ball. I would guess he's a good glove man. I would also guess that the wood bat will make him a .200 hitter unless and until he makes the changes and demonstrates the swing of mlb players.

Hot Corner

I'm still a little fuzzy but if you're saying the wrists are an area where connection is lost and slack develops I agree. The strength of the wrists comes in to play in their ability to fight the resistance and maintain their position. Many hitters give in to the resistance and their barrell won't arc as quickly as it needs to.

That's it that is what I am saying, this is gonna sound funny but, my 8 y/o switch hits, he is a naturally right handed. When he swings left handed his bat is quicker, why? I believe because his right hand is stronger it holds the bat in place better by remaining loaded getting to the hitting plane. When he bats right handed the bottom hand, left doesn't hold the bat long enough in the loaded position and slack develops. His right hand is able to make up for the slack by driving through the zone now but in order to quicken his bat we are working on left hand wrist strength. I know he is 8, I have the kid clean the horse stalls with his left hand at the end of the pitchfork instead of the right hand. He doesn't lift weights, won't let him. Makes him so mad.

I don't see the wrists being a cause for the bat barrel to drop......The wrists get set in the load.....Wrist set shouldn't change after that......

The front elbow has more to do with the angle of the bat than the wrists do.....

The heel drop is ultra confusing and tough for a high school baseball player to master imo.. I believe it should not be a mechanism to start a swing. Puts the emphasis on the wrong objective prior to launch. By swing plane i just meant that i believe my kids need to stay in the contact zone as long as possible and that it is more important than creating a little more batspeed.. Was one thing with Laynce Nix, but quite another with my average ballplayers.

An observation.. I use to teach firing the top knuckle of the top hand thru the baseball..(Driving the nail). Not rolling over just the top knuckle.. now with my emphasis on palm up palm down the fly balls seem to have increased exponentially.. This is starting to concern me..I've given front elbow cues etc. I'm hoping its not a fly ball fest the first few weeks..we are not blessed with a-lot of power.

quote:

Originally posted by BlueDog:
I don't see the wrists being a cause for the bat barrel to drop......The wrists get set in the load.....Wrist set shouldn't change after that......

The front elbow has more to do with the angle of the bat than the wrists do.....

Are we talking about the same thing? Earlier we discussed the barrell dropping before or during rotation.

That is not what I'm talking about now and think Hot Corner is with me here.

We're talking about the wrists ability to hold position during the swing, not the preswing.

Once they get flat (if they do....that is another issue) there is a tendency of kids to release the pressure they feel in the wrists as they swing. When they release the pressure the barrell will actually rise (if they were flat to begin with) ever so slightly out of the swing plane. These hitters suffer from an inconsistent plane. Hit some good ones. Hit some bad ones. Feel like they're doing the same thing everytime. Frustrated by the inconsistency. I've found that the wrists can be the problem. They lose the plane. Ever so slightly. Top hand tilts up as they go through the zone. Usually they didn't get flat on time.

If you're looking for bat quickness to be a result of wrist strength, you're not understanding efficiency in the swing.....

Teacherman, the front elbow sets the plane of the swing.......The wrists do not control swing plane.....If the front elbow is not working properly, the hitter will not hold the proper swing plane......Concentrating on the wrists is, IMO, a waste of time and effort.....

If the front elbow stays on plane, the hands will stay palm up, palm down like they should......It's not in the wrists....

The wrists actually need to release any and all pressure at, or just before, ball contact, so the hitter can hook and not extend.....

Roy, if your hitters are swinging on the plane of the pitch, the results should be hard hit line drives, not fly balls.....

If they're hitting fly balls, chances are they need to wait on the ball a little longer to swing.....

Wrist strength is not a key to bat quickness just an essential element. If the wrist doesn't hold against centrifugal force and unloads, the arc elongates and the time increases. There is so much to the teach of advanced mechanics of a swing it is hard to add everything into one or two paragraphs. My oldest son has the inconsistent stay loaded wrist with good rotation, then gets lazy, unloads, casts his hands, and has poor results. Then he looks at me like 'what happened I swung the exact same way!?' I tell him, he let the bat tell him how he is to swing and unloaded his wrist, keep them loaded. He replies, with the obligatory, "I Know" of a teenager and I remind him if you know then do it, don't tell me about it.

Any way, I'm still working all this out. I have much to learn.

quote:

Originally posted by BlueDog:
Teacherman, the front elbow sets the plane of the swing.......The wrists do not control swing plane.....If the front elbow is not working properly, the hitter will not hold the proper swing plane......Concentrating on the wrists is, IMO, a waste of time and effort.....

If the front elbow stays on plane, the hands will stay palm up, palm down like they should......It's not in the wrists....

The wrists actually need to release any and all pressure at, or just before, ball contact, so the hitter can hook and not extend.....

I believe the two must work together. I have seen batters be on plane then they "roll at contact", shudder. (Things that make you go, Buuughaaah, ) they loose power, efficiency, and bat speed/quickness.

should, but isn't happening especially on balls up. I think it will come around..Takes a-lot of work to get a kid to hammer line drives all day..Right now the majority of them are just under the baseball too often. Hoping some drills like high tee and perry husbands tee test wll iron it out+ hit hit hit.

quote:

Originally posted by BlueDog:
Teacherman, the front elbow sets the plane of the swing.......The wrists do not control swing plane.....If the front elbow is not working properly, the hitter will not hold the proper swing plane......Concentrating on the wrists is, IMO, a waste of time and effort.....

If the front elbow stays on plane, the hands will stay palm up, palm down like they should......It's not in the wrists....

The wrists actually need to release any and all pressure at, or just before, ball contact, so the hitter can hook and not extend.....

This just simply isn't true. Sorry Blue Dog. We usually agree.

Put the bat on your shoulder in your stance. Leave it on your shoulder while raising the front elbow. There is a rotation going on at the botton hand around the bat handle OR bending at the wrist.

Now assume the same position and supinate and pronate your top hand. There is no movement of the front elbow.

Simply put, there is another joint between the elbow and the bat. Yes the front elbow is instrumental in setting swing plane. But only if the wrists are in line.


Getting the hands flat and keeping them flat are as much a wrist control factor as a lead elbow factor.

Hacker,

Teacher beat me to it with a reasonable statement. I’ll expand since you addressed it to me.

I do not know Brian Bixler and have nothing against him. I wrote that I could have just as easily used another clip since there were many examples in these videos of players with similar obvious flaws in their swings.

He’s a pro and I felt he demonstrated a “flaw” that I was pointing out as well as any. Perhaps next time, I or someone else may choose to use another player as an example and we’ll hear that we are picking on them. So Hacker, anyone else or even Brian, it’s nothing personal.


You write:

quote:

SBK..somehow you from watching a three minute tape have got Bixler pegged as not being a "money player".

Anyone who knows a little about baseball scouting recognizes that my reference to Pedroia as a “money ball player” is not a negative reflection upon Brian Bixler and in fact has nothing to do with him. For your benefit I will explain that it meant that undersized Pedroia is not a tools player and is putting up glaring numbers that would attract disciples of the “money ball theory”, (You can research money ball theory on your own if so interested) such as an incredibly low strike out ratio as well as walk to strike outs and other “money ball” factoids.


As far as a 3-minute tape, there was enough game situation footage for me to see a problem. It doesn’t matter if one of the swings resulted in a home run or a strike out.

Perhaps the Pirates drafted Mr. Bixler as a tools type player. They obviously see something in him and good for him and them. I wish the kid well but in my opinion, if you see him hitting successfully in the show, he’ll need to make serious adjustments to his swing. As will many, many of the other short stops whose clips I viewed. Now on the other hand, maybe what I deem a flaw is really what the Pirates are looking for and they won’t want the kid to change a thing.

This brings up a subject that Teach and Swingbuster, others as well as myself question. Why do the vast majority of draftees exhibit swings that we believe contain evident flaws that make it nearly impossible to be a successful hitter in the pros without having to make substantial changes of which most players never do?

PS Hacker, you also write,

quote:

if only the Pirates had consulted you...SBK the expert from S.D., they could have saved themselves lot of money.

First of all, what has anything I mentioned have to do with South Dakota. Is that meant to be especially demeaning? Sounds like remarks heard on an elementary school playground.

Second of all, based on the info I had, I would have taken Pedroia over Bixler. We’ll just have to see if the Pirates should have consulted me.

Last of all, Hacker, I wish you no ill-will. In fact I appreciate you giving me a chance to clarify my initial post.

Teacherman, yes, we definitely do disagree on this one......

Flat hands, (palm up, palm down), is an effect not a cause.....If the swing is efficient, the wrists will fall in line where they need to be......Manipulating the wrists to fall in line is overlooking an inefficiency somewhere else in the swing.......

If you're not setting the swing plane with the front elbow, you're also not rotating........Now, you may think you are, but.......

SBK, personally, I think the Pirates should have consulted you.......Because you're right......

Regarding Bixler, without looking up his stats at Easter Michigan university last year, I believe that he was statistically one of the top hitters in the country last year, and may actually have been drafted as a "Moneyball" type player who also exhibited plus tools.

All the players that are drafted have some flaws......that is why they start out in the Minor Leagues. Bixler had fine numbers at Eastern Michigan. He hit .453 which was over 115 points higher than the next player on his team.He went out into pro ball and hit .276 his first year which is very respectable. If numbers show something, it was his errors that caught my eye. He made 20 in college and 16 in the summer which would program out to about 40 for a full minor league season.

In my opinion, Pedroia is not an undersized player. He is short, but is strong and athletic. He is also a "TOOLS" player, because he is an outstanding hitter and his fielding is on a par with most any infielder playing baseball.I have not seen Bixler play, but have seen Pedroia play about 70 times. He played for me in the Area Code Games and also with my son for two summers.

All the players need to keep improving in their hitting, fielding, baserunning, throwing etc. The key to scouting is not comparing the young draft choice to a fine major leaguer, but comparing the young draft choice to what the fine major leaguer looked like when he was in college or high school.

If all the college and high school prospects were compared to the present day Bonds, Pujols, Walker, A-Rod etc. none of them would get drafted very high.

I agree with those that don’t get too hung up on the heel drop cause and effect thing. That’s not where hitters run into the most problems. The heel drop event sequence even happens among the worst of hitters similar to the better ones. That is among the least of the problems for hitters to worry about.

Just want to say I’ve noticed Teach, Bluedog and Swingbuster don’t always agree but bring much to the table. I’ve really enjoyed what HotCorner and Roy have been bringing to the table as new members. Kudos to all!

Most wrist problems I’ve noticed among players who already have decent fundamentals still come back to them reaching for the ball. Players with decent rotation who can keep their lead elbow close to their pec and are confident hitting the ball deep in the zone do fine.

Roy you mentioned something about your kids maybe hitting the ball in the air too much or something like this. It reminded me of something I feel is important to be remembered.

It is highly probable that skinny little freshman that exhibit a good rotational swing that matches the plane of the ball might often hit more than their share of outs being caught balls. Be patient because these players are only a couple years from being able to drive the same pitches into the gaps, through the holes, over the outfielders heads and every once in a while over the fence.

Also Roy regarding popping up the high pitch, why do you suspect it’s happening from what you are observing?

Are they matching the plane correctly and are hitting underneath because of timing like Bluedog brought up? If so, are they late or early? Is their weight coming too forward and flattening their swing out too much? Or is it something else?

I find hitters who hit under the ball are not waiting long enough, providing their mechanics are O.K...........Film the hitters and see where their ball contact is.....I'll bet you find they're contact point is beyond their front foot.....A little lunge, a little disconnect, and............

Not at all unusual for a player who has converted to, or become more efficient at, rotational hitting to be early therefore popping up some balls. Their new swing is quicker but they still use their old timing.

Let them continue. Let them work on their timing and you'll be glad you did.

BBScout,

Point well taken.

I don’t have enough info on either player to make much more than general observations. I had no idea what Bixler hit in college but as a high draft pick assumed he did well. He only came up because when looking at clips, I thought he had an example of a flaw I was talking about.

I’ll take your word that .276 is respectable in the league he played in. The stats show that when he makes contact, he is successful. Hopefully he is able to make adjustments from the swing he displayed on the video and cut the strikeouts way down (1 out of every 4 times up is not good). Interesting about the errors. From the video, if that is Eastern Michigan’s home park, perhaps he played many games on artificial turf and was used to faster, but fairer hops. I’m sure he’ll get this straightened out easier than his swing.

Pedroia is undersized regardless of you saying otherwise but his game sure is not.

Your definition of a “Tools” player confuses me. From what I’ve seen and know of him, I love him as a player and I think he’s got a chance to be an outstanding productive big league player before lots of players drafted before him.

But I would hardly think he’d be thought of as a “Tools” player. He is not above average in power, speed or arm and certainly isn’t going to scare anyone when he steps off the bus. The thing he has going for him is that he can flat play and compete. One of the ways he does that is by having a relatively sound swing. His example of a swing was the reason why I brought up his name in the first place.

So Bbscout, the only reason I can come up with for you to say that Pedroia is a “Tools” player is because of your great admiration for the kid’s ability to play momentarily clouded your professional judgment. If that is the case, I can certainly understand why. The kid can get it done.

BBScout, what I would like your professional judgment on is whether he’ll stay at short or end up at second.

SBK, Thanks for the reply. There are 5 tools, and Pedroia is way above average in the two most important (in my opinion) tools....hitting and fielding.

I feel that he can stay at SS, although I saw him play one whole summer at 2B and he was outstanding there too.

Some scouts say that his arm is not strong enough to play short, but then again, Ozzie Smith had a well below average arm and went to the HOF. I always look at it like this.....if the hitter is an above average runner and hits it in the hole, and Pedroia keeps throwing him out, then what kind of arm does Pedroia have?

I am a very difficult scout to impress, and Pedroia has impressed me with his desire and ability to play, but more important, his ability to hit and field which are both plus tools.

And thanks for your reply.

We certainly agree that kid knows how to use the tools he has.

I figured somewhere along the line he successfully played second. It’s nice to have options.

quote:

Originally posted by Teacherman:
Not at all unusual for a player who has converted to, or become more efficient at, rotational hitting to be early therefore popping up some balls. Their new swing is quicker but they still use their old timing.

Let them continue. Let them work on their timing and you'll be glad you did.

My 14y/o can't believe how far in front he is at times, I keep having to remind him that as his swing becomes more efficient it gets sorter and quicker giving him more time to see the ball from release point.

Blue Dog: I agree that the wrist will unload, but near contact not before. Palm up-Palm down is the result of an efficient swing. I agree with Teach that the wrist must maintain position, apply centripetal force against the bats natural centrifugal force. These counter acting force help generate velocity. (I sound like a college physics professor, LOL ) But those are the laws of physics that come into play. If the wrist is to weak to hold their position the swing plane changes and reduces velocity and adds challenge to the hand eye coordination needed. If the lead elbow is weak and cannot apply centripetal force against the centrifugal force of the bat wanting to fly out from the center of the rotation then the swing plane will change again adding further challenges for a hitter to overcome.

The swing starts with the core muscle group rotating, Jim Edmonds' swing coils up the core muscles, never leave toe touch, then upon uncoiling(rotating the core) his heal drops because his weight is rotating, or sifting as some may call it. I tried rotating my core muscles without dropping my heal, it wasn't a pretty sight, . Well this is getting long winded someone else chime in.

quote:

Originally posted by BlueDog:
I find hitters who hit under the ball are not waiting long enough, providing their mechanics are O.K...........Film the hitters and see where their ball contact is.....I'll bet you find they're contact point is beyond their front foot.....A little lunge, a little disconnect, and............

I agree that hitters with good rotational swings that pop up is a matter of timing. Had a guy tell me last night that my sons bat is to heavy and it is making him late. FYI: The drives 80 MPH pitches to the gaps and pops up 60-70 MPH pitches and finds he is out front and his weight falling off the front because he is trying to just make contact after committing to the swing. He finds him self lunging and reaching for the ball. Ah the trials of learning patience.

'My wife says I am not patient, but she won't go fishing with me, '

Thanks for the replys..It's all about the reps..We hammered a team in a scrimmage last night, but still have a long way to go. We are behind where we we're last year at this point.We'll keep working.

After you have loaded and your stride is complete and are in a proper position to start the swing (attack the ball), what is a good key to use during practice to initiate the swing. In short, should you think of driving your back knee toward the pitcher, or replacing your lead hip with your rear hip, or what? What is a good drill to practice starting the rotation of the rear hip?